I'm sure this thread might open up some heated debate but honestly, I've learned this after years of working with battered women.

When I hear a victim start telling me that God will take care of her/him/marriage/abuse, it is a huge warning sign to me.

I've said it before here, when did God or Jesus become our Holy Errand Boys? Why are they expected to be the Righteous Repair Men?

The women pray before marrying these men, asking for God's wisdom and guidance and jump in head first, expecting to land on their feet after receiving clear indications that he's an abuser! Hello? I'm trying to answer your prayers but you aren't listening.

Then, after the abuse is full-blown, God is expected to step in and fix everything. And, when a woman starts telling me God is in charge, I usually tune her out at that point because I've learned she doesn't really want help, she just wants me as a sounding board. Her life is no longer her responsibility, but God's.

I've heard, "Jesus is my first husband." Well, if that's true, would he abuse you and would he approve of husband # 2 abusing you? "I'm submitting as I am with God." Well, when you reach the pearly gates and stand before God and tell him how you've thrown away your life on a loser, how will you feel? You could have used your life to be an instrument of God, serving others, and instead, you used it as an instrument of repeated abuse! Where is the glory in that?

I'll step down from my platform now!

When you're right, you're right and believe me you are right on here...to me its a cop out for women too scared or weak to make a move so they thrust the responsibility on poor Gods shoulders...this way they can whine and never have to be blamed for not putting forth the effort to change things and can blame it all on God....We call it the boo hoo, poor me theory.

Dianne!!!

I would like to thank you for your bravery. It would be hard to post that here. And maybe I should add, there should be a forum for the "Abuse of God" (or Harietta). It has sadly been too many experiences of mine, that our sorry human plight has placed much too importance on what Harietta can do , rather than what WE can do.

So here I go on MY soapbox - I feel that God, Or Harietta, or George, or Whomever - is WAAAAAAAAAAAY smarter than I am. But I'm pretty smart. As smart goes anyhow.... Harietta gave me this. And genetics. (My Mother and Father were pretty smart!) So.

I have the wherewhithal to manage my own affairs. At least to a degree. And to put God or Harietta as the scapegoat for my failures, is an abomination....

I have known people who pray over what furniture they should buy. To me, this is just plain ridiculuous... In my mind, Harietta has much more important things to consider - like genocide for instance. Just for an instance.

So, yes, take responsibility over your life - Harietta gave you what you have, and I believe you are expected to use it. If you are in need of more help than you are getting - go to a professional. The church is for spirtuality, not escape.

I think I am sounding somewhat mean. But this makes me angry when I could have blamed God or Harietta or George for my Nichole's infirmities. But I did not. And still do not. She was a part of this world, and the world is not perfect.....If this world were perfect, we would already be in Heaven...or something like that. I grieve her death more than I ever thought I could grieve anything . Almost a year later, I still am just a shadow of myself, reduced to great sobs at a moment's timing. A song, a reference, a thought.....but I know I am but one. Many, many Mothers have been in such pain.... Now is the time to call upon God. Harietta. George.

Even so, it is still MY responsibility to manage my life. Harietta or God, need not spend her time "fixing" my life. I, after all, am smart, and have the ability to fix my own life. Or so I hope....

I don't intend to be intolerant on this issue, but , I beg you, take Dianne's words to heart, she knows what she's talking about....Hear her.

Searcher

It's so human nature. That some women will not
listen to God or another human being and are so in
love that they will marry the abuser anyway.
They are willing to go pretty far and learn from
their mistakes.
I thank God for his unlimited love and forgiveness
for our failures.

Harietta? I'm laughing out loud.

Praying over what furniture to buy. I've seen that and things even sillier.

We lived in a wonderful little town in AZ and people from CA would visit and want to move there. So, I saw a lot of "Christian" folk that had uprooted their family and just knew God would provide a job. No planning, research, nada. Pray instead of actively look for a job. I also saw a minister and his wife prey on these people for money so they could build what God had shown them was theirs. After getting the money, that property is now a college, not theirs. Hystericals.

One gal that I knew from there called me. She had married this guy because she knew they were meant to have a music ministry (having talent doesn't mean you belong together). He punched, kicked and slapped her and would lock her in the bedroom all night.

She ended up in a mental hospital because she couldn't face it that God didn't have to fix her mess. She had plenty of warnings. It hurt her mentally and spiritually because of her belief and not listening.

This is a sad statement but sometimes, when a woman is being abused, it can be God's voice answering her prayer....GET OUT!!!!!! YOU DON'T DESERVE THIS! THIS ISN'T WHAT I HAD PLANNED FOR YOUR LIFE!

Yesterday I saw a bumper sticker.

It said,

"God wants spiritual fruits, not religious nuts."

Dianne, maybe AZ should put that on a sign at the border .

smile

Perhaps it's easier for these women to put themselves in God's hands than to take their lives into their own hands and get out of the abusive situation. The God I believe in gave us freedom of choice.

Not having been an abusive marriage myself, I can't really pass judgement. But I do know that many people told me when I was in a time of crisis, "God never gives anyone more than they can handle." I know they meant to comfort, but they made me feel worse because I couldn't always handle them.

Thank you all for your intellegent and insightful comments.

Yes.
However.
I've survived a verbally and (a little) physically abusive marriage. I can't even begin to tell you the things I told myself -- the reasons I felt I needed to stay. And yes, I believed that God was punishing me for having committed adultry. It took a lot of love and soul-searching and actually experiencing what a loving life looked like to move away from it.

Keep up the good work, Dianne!

Smile
I love your sign! Exactly.

Dianne, to put some humor in here, I figure men can't run the world very well, so how can he run the universe???? Must be a Harietta!

Diamond, they think they are in love, but if they are women who read their Bible, they should read Corinthians....

NHJackie. Well said. I have often said , "I HAVE been given more than I could handle!!! - but people really didn't want to hear this, it would make THEM responsible to help out more....This is still a contention between my sister and myself. It's sad. Because I still love my sister.

Casey, Yes, people need to know what real love looks like, or they can't imagine.

Searcher

Oh yeah,

And Harietta is probably a Native American, a person of African origin, a person of Spanish origin, or maybe one of Middle Eastern descent, not to mention, perhaps one of Asia......Not a 5'8'' white woman with long flowing blonde hair....

Search

Dianne, I agree with you 100% that a woman should not stay with a man that is abusing her. Jesus said "love thy neighbor as thyself" so if you're obligated to take care of your neighbor, how dare you not take care of yourself?
I'm sure these women just feel guilty about "breaking" their marriage vows before God but I say the second that man's hand connects with your body in anger, the vows have been broken.

Smile, that is a great bumper sticker!

[ March 12, 2006, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Bluebird ]

Since a large percentage of churches don't understand dv, they will often put the pressure on the woman to hold the marriage together and some religions teach that if you divorce for other than adultery, you'll burn in hell. That has a huge impact on these women. You need an 8x10 glossy of him in the act or something!

Others are afraid of being alone and use religion as an excuse. To them, it's easier. They just don't have a clue and no self-love.

Diane, I'm so glad my church does not believe like
those churches. If a woman is being abused, she
is usually encouraged to stay with other relatives
or friends until things change.

More and more, the clergy are being educated about domestic violence. Sadly, they are behind by years and women suffered because of them.

Don't get me started! I could rant and rave about that for days!

I heard a joke during Katrina. A guy was stranded on the roof of his house and the flood waters were rising. (some of you have probably heard this...)

A helicopter flew over and let down a ladder and the guy said, "No, go your way, God will provide a way." Then a boat came by and they said, "Hey, fella, get in!" He said, "No, God will provide a way for me." When the flood waters were up to his nose, he prayed, "God, didn't you hear my prayers??!!" God said, "I sent you a helicopter and a boat, what more do you want?"

My daddy, the preacher, always said, "Honey, put feets to your prayers and you'll see God move."

I've always let my lips flap, but I make sure my feet move also.

Please note... abuse is not only physical... there is verbal and emotional abuse..

I feel for these women... they are so blind. If they can't love themselves first, then why would the abuser love them? Love is being respectful, being considerate, understanding, patient, kind, honest, forgiving, all positive!

Most of the women don't know how to love themselves and their childhood was probably spent with an abuser of some kind so there is the example. They don't think they deserve any better.

I've often tried to analize why I seem to be attracted to what I consider strong yet abusive men. I'm a strong woman. But my dad is a minister and my mom a typical minister's wife. To my parents, pleasing the church people was all important.

We weren't allowed to talk back or express opinions contrary to what our parent's believed and taught at home. I love my parents very much, respect them and have forgiven them, but I think I was taught to take a lot and never to talk back. I was very sensitive as a child and wanted very much to please my parents. That has carried over to adulthood.

I am a people pleaser and peace at most any price. I seem to "need" places and people "bigger" "stronger" more "powerful" than I am. I live near the ocean where I can feel the power. I love the mountains, bold colors, and exotic foods. I couldn't stand to live in the plains or with really nice people for long.

My idea of hell would be to live in the middle of Kansas, in a wheat field, with a really nice man who treated me like I would break.

I really don't like men who are "in touch with their feminine side." In my way of thinking, I may as well be married to a woman and as we all know, that certainly won't happen!

I like to be in charge of the kitchen and the household. I like to be the main one handling the children. Men who are strong yet kind and thoughtful are attractive to me. Trouble is, they get too much like the ocean during a hurricane...

If we're "pleasers" we will attract people we need to please. We look for it so we can fulfill what we believe to be our role in the relationship.

If we're rescuers, we attract those who need to be rescued, which ends up causing resentment.

I liked strong, powerful, successful men. Just like my dad. They also had his same characteristics, which wasn't a good thing but it was familiar to me. It's all I knew in a man.

We often don't think we're deserving of a good man and if we can find one that is worse off than us, it makes us feel better. That way, we don't have as much self-hatred.

After intensive therapy, I finally found a strong, powerful and successful man but he was also kind and nothing like my father.

I admire a man strong in only things like taking care of the cars, the up keep of the home (outside) and inside when something breaks or needs adjusting. My Father was that kind of a man, he had the most beautiful yard and garden on the block always and he did all the plumbing, electrical, painting, carpentry etc, he was as neat as a pin, one could say meticulous. Unfortunately he was as crazy as a loon...certifiable! Mother handled the inside things, kids, cooking, cleaning, gifts, family doings etc., critical at times. Its the way I would love it to be in my own home but out of three husbands NONE knew what side of a hammer to use. MY first was okay because my dad did everything for us, the second was rich and paid to have everything done, the third (yuk-phooey) and the worst of the three was and is a joke. A book smart political historian thats lucky he can cross the street by himself. I certainly messed up in the husband category...

Mine knows how to use a hammer...it isn't everything.

[ March 15, 2006, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Bluebird ]

LOL, Bluebird.

Mine was out at the bar again tonight then went home to HIS huge house. He called me this evening and I didn't want to answer the phone, but, of course, I did....I wasn't very nice to him. He got a 20 somethings phone number last night right in front of me and downloaded it in his phone. What am I, invisible???!!!

I'm feeling lonely and abandoned tonight, but at least I didn't drink...

I'll find myself again. Maybe someday I'll love myself enough to attract a nice man like the husband who passed away.

I think I married this a**Ho** because I failed to save my husband's life and didn't think I deserved anyone else as nice as he was. I will always wonder if I could have saved his life but the coroner said there were too many complications surrounding his heart attack like a massive blood clot in his caratoid artery.

I miss him terribly.

Number5...when you reach your point of"no" return, you will question your "putting up withs" and wonder why the heck you put up with them. Until that time, no one can convince you to do anything. I am going to pray that your situation works out in your favour.
I am sending you a gentle hug for your lonliness. I am so sorry you lost your husband.
chick

Thank you Chick,

I'm not holding it together very well today and I think I'm about to lose my job as I was late again today. Took GD to daycare and my veh is the only one my daughter, GD, step-daughter, and I have to transport us to jobs, appointments, daycare, etc.

I'm going to smile today at those who are around me. I'm going to accept whatever happens to me and be thankful that God sees me and knows where I am today.

I don't expect special favors at work. I was late again and they are very strict. I may be out pounding the pavement again today looking for another job. Someone told me about OneSource, an agency that helps with education, training, etc.

I've been thinking about going to school to become an LPN then maybe a RN. I'm probably too old for anyone to want to invest in my education and new career though...Lots to think about.

Dianne,
Is being a control freak part of the abusive personality? Being a nervous wreck type when they think they are losing control? Calling again, again and again and leaving nasty messages when they can't reach you on the phone? Thinking they have to micro-manage everything in your life to include who you are friends with and care about?

He knows I communicate with you all and I can't even repeat the names he calls you all as a collective group...


Are any of these traits of an abusive person?

Yes.

Number 5,
Oh, sweetheart...yes, you are with an abusive person. Large hugs. I wish I were there to wrap my arms around you and let you cry it all out.

Is there someone near you who you can talk with?

It sounds like he is an alcoholic, or at least has alcoholic tendencies. That's a whole system in itself. It's what I lived with for years.

I'm a life coach and willing to provide free support to you if you want/need it. I can even call you so you don't have the phone charges. As I said, I've been there. And I am no longer there. I am also perfectly comfortable with your viewpoints.

Please take care of yourself today in any way you feel is possible.

With love and support.

Mine has control tendencies but he's always done it in a passive aggressive way (which I didn't realize till this past year). It bothers him that I talk to all of you and have other friends and interests, but he's not obvious about his annoyance.
I've even seen his jealous side when I spend time or share an interest with my older kids...

Number5, domestic violence is more about control than the abuse itself. When words no longer control a woman, the abuser will often escalate into physical violence.

It sounds like he's in more of a panic and jealous mode except for the nasty messages...that's verbal and emotional abuse.

It's strange because he doesn't want to be with you but wants to be sure you have no life without him. This tells me he's still emotionally involved with you and doesn't want to turn 100% loose. I think he's afraid.

My husband doesn't understand how or why we connect on this site but he's never been jealous.

Remember: The base of control is fear.

Number5,

echoing Bluebird - a resounding YES.

Searcher

Passive agressive -- yick! Also fairly typical of a drinker/alcoholic. Have you ever read "Codependent No More?"

I guess I'm not totally clear -- are you living with your husband or in the process of separating? Sounds very entangled.

My ex- was extremely passive agressive -- also an active alcoholic. He would say sure, go ahead, and then do something which would show his displeasure. Once I took the kids on a quick vacation to friends. He couldn't go because he had to work. When I got back, there was a few days worth of garbage on the back porch. He didn't have "time" to take it the next 10 yards to the garbage cans....

Mine doesn't have a drinking problem, Casey.

Well, at least now I know and there's no denying it. He has kicked in the bathroom door and thrown things at me and most recently threw my GD's baby carriage across the room.

I'll get used to being on my own. I'll probably be much happier. Thanks for the info. Isn't there something out there to describe the personality traits and what to look out for in abusive personalities? He IS also an alcoholic. He drinks between 12-16 beers a night and shots in between.

I haven't eaten anything all day. I need to listen to reason and not my heart. If it weren't for my daughter and GD being here, I would run like the wind and never look back.

Number5, stay away. Keep coming here for encouragement as you need it. I'm afraid he's going to hurt you during one of his outbursts. Are you scared?

Okay, after reading your last post, he's abusive. Anytime you feel fear, you are a victim. If he pulls anything else, I'd either call the police or get a restraining order.

There's info on those personality traits all over the internet, Number5 -- just type in domestic violence or alchoholic personality, or abusive personality....plenty of stuff out there to help....just make sure it's a site that's reputable. And personally, I wouldn't wait for a next time, if at all possible.....This man needs anger control today and it might BE today that he loses it altogether....I'll worry about you...

Searcher

Number5, Yes, we are here. Get help. Get out. If you aren't scared, I sure am scared for you.

Bluebird, I'm not sure of your last comment. Passive agressive behavior is common with alcholics, but not limited to them! :-)))

Oh I know, I just wanted to make it clear that he is not an alcoholic.
I have "googled" and found some info about being co-dependent. A while back a friend of mine (who is an alcoholic) told me it sounded like I had co-dependent traits. I didn't think it was true at the time because I thought it meant that I was very dependent and I'm pretty independent. Now that I've read about it I would say that I have been showing co-dependent tendencies.

I think sometimes "co-dependent" can be an overused term! LOL We do seem to like labels! I'm pretty independent as well, but I have a great tendency to want to step in and do someone else's job for them, far too readily. I like the book, "co-dependent no more," even though it's over a decade old. It really brought forward the truth of what I was dealing with.

Of course, those of us who are mothers have some of that built in! My son, who has been on drugs for most of his life, has definitely taught me what I don't have control over. It's still difficult to let go and let God. But I'm practicing being in the "now," doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

When I was living with my ex- and I was spiralling out of control (I wasn't a particularly nice person at the time), it was a different situation. I had to grow up a lot. In the end we separated because he didn't want to look at the reason he drank so much. Our relationship is o.k. now; we can joke about things and he knows that he has avoided looking at things. I can only imagine his pain -- it must be really deep. But my living with it and trying to "fix" it didn't help me or him, or my son for that matter.

Sorry for rambling...I'm pretty passionate about this stuff!

You're not rambling and it is wonderful to be passionate about something! Too many people aren't passionate about anything.
I'm learning to step back from my older kids as far as trying to "keep" them out of trouble or trying to get them out. I thought I had to overcompensate when they were younger because my husband worked so much and when he was home, he still wasn't "there". But that doesn't work.

Thats how my ex became too Number5, he didn't really want me but didn't want anyone else to want me either and hated that anyone else did. Your soon to be X is afraid of the support and understanding and learning you receive from woman here who have learned the hard way how to remain sane and beat the all male system. He fears the fact that many women are strong and that you may begin to feel your own strengths and realize what a pitiful loser/abuser he is and the funny thing is he's right!!! One day you'll laugh about all this, doesn't seem possible but its true. Maybe you can get a meeting at work and explain (briefly) why you may need to be late every now and then...

You're all right. He plans to come over tonight after he leaves the bar....again.....He really wanted to move into his own place so he could go out drinking whenever he feels like it, then come over to see me at "my" house just to check up on me.

His daughter told me today that she grew up seeing him hit her mother. I didn't know that. No one told me until now. She said in all fairness, though, that he did it when they were both drunk. The poor kid. She and I are getting along much better now. No wonder she's messed up!!

She doesn't want to see me receive the same treatment.

I want the lovely women and the precious grandchildren in my life to see what a healthy woman is like. I want them to see me overcome this obstacle and be a strong healthy woman again.

I look in the mirror and I don't even know who this person is. I've aged about 5 yrs. since I've lived with him this past year.

Thanks to all of you, I'm becoming braver and more confident that I may have a future. He told me he would kill me if I touched his money so I have to find another way to make it, but I'm sure God will open the door to a better paying profession and a whole new life.

number5, my x did that even after we were married. He was REALLY upset when I changed the locks. He had been coming in the house looking for evidence, but there was none - I didn't date anyone until the divorce was final. Your x will continue this behavior until you make a firm stand - get the locks changed. If I was closer, I'd do it for you.

Daisygirl

I've said it before: Don't blame the consumption of alcohol on abuse. A man who abuses when drunk has simply lost his inhibitions and will eventually do it stone-cold sober. It isn't the booze, it's the man!

Today I'm presenting him with an accounting of my deposits and withdrawals from the joint account. I've opened my own but there are still some residual bills left over. I don't want him to have anything to hold over my head or complain about.

He seems to be able to find anything at any time. I want to be able to look in the mirror and like what I see. The way I see it is if he has his own house and I have mine but we are still married and he is still responsible for anything related to me in anyway and I still go over to his house and "service" him on my nights off, then, I'm his whore.

Am I wrong? Sex for money. Isn't that what a prostitute does? Am I way off base here, if any one of you had a child who had to come and live with you for a while, even if your husband had physical disabilities, wouldn't you expect him to love you enough to accept the temporary inconvenience? Wouldn't you expect his emotional and moral support?

I'm going on a little road trip today and try to forget about him for a little while. Do you think there could be someone nice and strong for me someday out there??!!

Yes, there will be but not until you are strong yourself.

I was nice to my about to be ex just to get through a friendly divorce. You do whatever it takes to get by and I understand and especially when he's in control of the money. It's only temporary so don't beat up on yourself.

You can't expect from him what he's not capable of giving to you.

Number5. I hope you have a great road trip!

Looking in the mirror and liking what we see is so important! It's a reflection of our true selves. It can be difficult to let ourselves shine through when we are afraid. In an abusive situation being afraid is the right response.

Unfortunately, you aren't talking about physical disabilities. You are talking about a man with a large problem with himself. It really doesn't have anything to do with you. You could twist yourself into any type of pretzel and it would only work for a while. He is putting his anger outside himself on you. I agree with Dianne, the alcohol only gives him the "excuse." I was kicked by my ex- because he couldn't make a large pancake one night. If that's not insanity!

You do what you need to do to protect yourself until you are free. There are no labels to apply. You are a warm, loving human being who is doing what you have to do. "Sex for money, prostitute, whore" are NOT labels I would apply to the woman I have seen in these posts.

Wonderful, loving, courageous, caring, responsible, faithful, Christian -- those are labels I would apply to the person I've come to know in a small way.

We are here in your support.

Number5, To answer your question in the order they were asked:

1) NO you can't be his whore as long as you are his wife. You can behave as one but not be one.
2) YES thats exactly what she does, sex for money.
3) YES if he loved you enough he would too.
4) YES and you should have both his emotional and moral support.
5) YES but move slowly this tme and don't accept the first guy who seems nice.

You are in such a dubios position with all this going on, you need to get away and relax for awhile. Remember too that as women we do what we have to do to survive until we can do something else....

I was brought up and had no choice but to attend Catholic School. I love this site, and commend Dotsie for creating it, however, one thing that I personally can't handle is all the "religiousness" of the site. And that's just me. No put-down at all intended. But when people or women put up with horrific conditions and wait for God to handle it, I cannot for the life of me, explain how I feel. I think, women in situations as noted forget "God gave us a free will" He didn't say "throw it on me, and I'll handle it"...enough said.

Sandi, I went to 12 years of Catholic school and am now a praticing Presbyterian. But most importantly, I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Women sharing their faith on this site is music to my ears.

However, I agree that no one should sit back and be abused in the name of God.

I don't take your post as a put down. It's your personal opinion and you are entitled to that. I launched BWS to give all boomer women a voice. When we share them, lives are changed...regardless of our opinion.

Faith is an interesting thing. For me, there's a level below the words that is where the spirit (God) lives that is my most profound connection to the holy. There's a level of truth and trust there that provides a reality that I know is true for me.

When I read the words of those whose faith rests in the Bible, Jesus (although at an essential level Jesus is part of that connection I described earlier), or other, I try to translate what they are saying into what I believe and find our connection to each other. I get beyond the words to the level of love that we all share.

I do believe we have free will and that it is horribly misused much of the time. For the woman who is abused, one of the powers of control that an abuser takes is to confuse the woman's reality. It's probably the worst part of the problem. You come to believe (I've been there), that if you would just "get it" then the abuse would end. You believe that you must be a horrible person. Something has to happen to shake that distorted reality. When it does, the real truth comes to the surface and you will never willingly give it up again.

Some (not all -- not even most) religions and religious leaders riff on this control theme and play into the distortion of reality. But so do some businessmen, political leaders and many others.

We must speak firmly and with love. And we must begin with speaking our truth to ourselves.

Casey,
My first husband's name for me was "dingbat". We went to buy furniture and he would say, "Just keep your mouth shut, dingbat, and let me handle it." He couldn't even get a GED! He shoved me down when I was pregnant with my first child because I accidentally let the garage door down on his precious car among other things until finally when our daughter was 2, he came home and told me I was fat and getting old at 22 and he had been cheating on me with my best friend who was 19 at the time.

My second husband was a rageacholic and a CEO of a very large corporation. We lived in constant fear of his temper but he was gone most of the time. Still, his behavior has deeply affected the lives of his children.

My third husband was the most kind, intelligent and loving man I have ever known. His love was a blessing and he completely "adopted" my children and grandchildren. I loved him with all my heart. His death was devastating. I keep his ashes with me and sometimes I just hold the container and cry. I miss him so much. My daughters keep his picture where they can see it and be reminded of him and his love for them. My grandchildren all called him "Grampy" and I can still see the light in his eyes which reflected a beautiful soul.

You all know about this last marriage. I should have become suspicous when he didn't care to meet my parents and tried to keep my family and friends away from me.

Then he tried to change the way I looked, long vs short hair, the way I dressed, bought me the kind of clothes he liked to see women in. Put down any activity I enjoyed other than what he wanted to do. Put down my taste in food, in art, put me down for reading books, for liking classical music and for not liking doowop music, for liking the theatre and movies and even for liking wine.

I don't even know who I am anymore and as some of you have indicated, it is true that we have a tendency to become comfortable in the position as the victim. Being a victim gives us identity and

Oops! Bottom line, I realize I may be too comfortable in the role as victim and need to find out how to overcome that and become a whole person again.

You all are helping me a lot as I share my feelings thoughts and frustrations. Your input is very valuable to me as well as the caring and comfort I've gotten from so many of you.

Have any of you ever adopted a dog from the pound who has been tortured? They will roll over on their backs with their feet up or blink or flinch when you come near them? Do they ever get comfortable and feel safe again or are they forever scarred?

When does a human stop flinching, blinking, flushing? How do you get to an upright position with your head held high and don't feel intimidated by anyone anymore?

The word "dingbat" still comes to mind, all the titles and insults. My weight fluxuates and I've been anorexic. But, I know who I am in Christ and that he sees a perfect, wonderful human being.

#5,
I think we have all been abused in one way or another by someone at some time. I'm sure there is a reason for it. Maybe to help us not to abuse others. Maybe to help us learn to rely only on God and to hold our heads high with our eyes on Him regardless of what is going on around us.

So many people, especially women, seem to choose to remain victims. They live in that identity forever. They dwell on how they have been victimized and use it as an excuse for all their mistakes. As you said, some people seem far too comfortable with the 'victim' identity. Maybe because it is the only identity they have. And it works for them. Identifying ourselves as victims is easy. We always have an excuse and we can just relax knowing we can blame others for our mistakes.

But we also have the option, even though it is difficult, to pull ourselves together and move on. We can choose to move past the comfort of the victim identity and establish ourselves as strong independent women responsible for our own failures and beneficiaries of our own success, knowing that success can be more frightening than failure.

Either way, it is up to us to choose another identity then with the help of our God to live up to it. It is certainly not the easiest way. It's difficult to take responsibility for our own lives and make it the best we can, but it is the adult thing to do and we can all do it if we just decide to stop using excuses, stop blinking, stop dodging, and stop flushing. We have to choose to stop being a victim.

I could be a victim too, but work toward being independent instead. Sometimes I'm closer than other times. With God's help, I think I'm making progress. Hopefully we all are.

smile

[ March 18, 2006, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Yes, Number5, you can recover who you are. It took me a long time to stop flinching, but I believe it's gone. You are already taking the first steps by being totally honest about your situation. Yea, you!

And good for you for reaching out and accepting the love and support from this group and God.

Keep talking. Time will help. You are so brave and loving. Given your history, therapy may help -- or not. I don't know how you feel about it. It helped me heal (although I went to a few therapists before I found the right one for me) because I began to understand that the message that I wasn't "good enough" was a false one.

Praise yourself for each little step you take. Everytime you say, "no, I am not a dingbat. I am a beautiful child of God," feel it to the bottom of your soul. Embrace that moment. It will give you the courage to become stronger every day.

Hugs

Number5, if it helps, think of this. Archie Bunker used to call his wife a dingbat and it was obvious from watching that show, that she was wise, patient and loving. Maybe you can take that comment that your ex meant in a mean way and think of yourself as an Edith Bunker!! Everyone loved her. She stood up to Archie when she needed to and had lots of friends. She was a great mother and grandmother, just like you and she was a prayerful, Christian woman.

Oh...one more thing I just thought of. Your screename here is Number 5, which means HIS 5th wife. Maybe you should think about using a name that identifies yourself for who you are, that has nothing to do with him. You're beautiful!
((HUGS))

[ March 18, 2006, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Bluebird ]

Here! Here! I second Jackie's suggestion!

Here! Here! Here! I third Jackie's suggestion!

I fourth it!

This is why I titled my book: Whose Face is in the Mirror? As a battered woman, we don't see our true reflection anymore. We only see what we haven't become, how we haven't measured up to his eyes...on and on and on.

If you email me your address, I'll have my publisher send you a copy of my book. I know it will help you! And since I've been told putting your email addy in even a post like this can lead to spam, please go to my website and go to the link for contact us and it gives my email address: www.eadv.net Don't forget to include your real name. I don't want them to mail it to Number5 LOL!

LOL! I never have thought of it that way. I like the idea of changing my screen name and the idea of creating an image for myself then working to make it happen.

My kids love me to pieces and laugh now that for so many years they fought to be independent adults with their own identities and now laugh that they are becoming more and more like mom. They find themselves doing things like I did when they were growing up and they seem to be happy about it....

When the ogre (second husband) would leave town, we would sometimes check into the Holiday Inn Holidome and stay up late watching old movies, swimming and playing pool, eating out and having a great time. I always made sure my girls had a lot of fun.

Once I rented a van and took all three of them and a best friend to a resort in Florida for a week on the beach. We had a ball and the friends still remember it.

I'm sure things will get better. I know it won't happen overnight. Casey, and all, I'm very happy to know you are better now.

I've gone for therapy but I find it helps more to read and share and reflect then act. Being outside does a body a lot of good and laughing, acting silly with the kids.

Thanks Dianne,

I'll do that. Wow, a writer too...I'm keeping good company...how many writers are there in here? My late husband was on the board of the National Writer's Union. He tried to get me to join. That's how I met him.

Chuckle...I'm a writer, too. I was President of the local National Writer's Union chapter for a bit.

I've written a tech book, two books on local wine regions (www.mountainvinespub.com) and many articles. I am struggling with writing my coaching book, but because I am trying to get a better handle on my practice, it's going to have to wait a bit.

Yes, getting outside and laughing and giggling and being silly is Wonderful! My husband and I have stuffed bears that we "play" with and make imitation voices! Sometimes we laugh and laugh at night sooo loud!

Off to the outside!

You women offer such warm, loving, and uplifting advice! I'm so proud to be among you. Number5, I think you should call yourself Winning Woman or WomanRoaring or something along those lines.
Have fun with it!

Pursue YOUR Possibilities.

JJ

Or how 'bout THE QUEEN?????? LOL, LOL, LOL, now I'M on a roll........

JawJaw, I like those suggestions. I'm sure my girls could come up with a few too....When they were all at home I had a plaque on the wall that read, "So it ain't home sweet home...adjust". And they did.

My late husband's name was John Boyd. Anyone know or have heard of him?

Is he the same Boyd that is known for his military accomplishments? A fighter-pilot? And did the speech "To be or to do?" It's very famous. If one has ever worked in or with the military gov't, you'd be hard pressed not to have heard of him. He was a genius.

JJ

I get nervous when she doesn't answer...
Hope you're doing Ok today Number 1.
chick

No, John was on the board of the National Writer's Union and travelled about twice a year to the meetings. He was in Boston once and in NY, in NM once. He had a T-shirt that read Good Writing Must Be Organized. He was a great believer in unions.

He also had his own newspaper in Omaha, NE for a while.

Wow! His own paper? Wouldn't that be a dream come true? He was so right about being organized, and I'm not talking about unions, but about myself. It's something I strive for ALL the time.

JJ

I never met John, but that feeling of having unions is/was very strong in my area. I was involved when Jonathan Tasini was president of the union. He fought the New York Times to get writer's paid when corporations re-used their work in electronic databases. He won, but it was a puric victory -- now all contracts are written so that you are signing away all your rights to any conceivable medium, whether its invented or not.

People do expect writers to write for free when they would never expect a plumber to do so. It's pretty wierd.

You got it Casey. When I use to write a column for a magazine that was owned by the NYTimes, they had me sign a contract that basically said, "we own your work and you can't write for anybody else." period. I crossed out the areas I disagreed with, then got it in writing from the editor (via email) that this was agreeable to her before I wrote another word. It's NOT acceptable. I couldn't agree with you more!

People DO look at writers as if we "owe" them our words, sometimes. Don't you think? I also don't think some people realize how hard it is to be consistent with our craft and how hard we work at developing it. Lawd...who open the flood gates...sorry.(Queen stepping down from soapbox).

JJ

My husband knew Jonathan. When John passed away he sent an email expressing his sympathy.

John thought a lot of him. My husband gave all that up to drive a semi with me across 48 states. We were going to write about our experience.

You still can, you know :--))

Took the words right outta my mouth Casey. Number5, this is great advice and what a tribute to John and your life together...yes?

JJ

JJ, I used to get phone calls from frantic college students around end of term time, wanting anything I had on domestic violence. I'm not really into doing homework for others, ya know? They wanted me to fax or mail things to them and one even came to my house in a huge rush. They don't study, just use the words of others and twist them around to look like their own. And we wonder why the younger generation is unmotivated.

Number5, I am here to tell you that even the most brutalized and beaten down animals will respond after awhile to love and they will trust and even feel confident once they are shown that brutality is not the norm. I have fostered hundreds of animals thrown away and they all responded in time and were able to be found loving caring homes...

I was thinking of the news screen name BLISSFUL and if you look it up you'll see why!! Its what I wish for you.

You ladies are such an inspiration!! My husband is always stomping one foot then the other down and saying, "reality, 'honey', reality, its something you need to come into contact with and accept. You are old, nobody will ever want you or what you can do again. No one will be willing to invest money in you. Its just me and you. We have to think about us. Just live your life in peace until you die." As he says those words I can physically feel something inside recoil and die or shrink.

He's right, I am a dreamer and imaginative, I do live in a dream world. In my world there are no barriers to age, sex, accomplishment. People can be productive and resourceful and LIVE until their number comes up. I dream and imagine all the time. I have theories and ideas and inside I'm like a greenhouse full of growing plants from seedlings to fully blossoming bushes and fruited trees. I keep a notebook full of ideas and theories and research them and update them and when I'm helping others or contributing to making this a better world I'm happiest. I thrive on change and discovery. But, alas.....,he's right about one thing, I am getting older and I am a dreamer. Someday my 'seedlings' will dry up and my plants will die. I'll become a barren wasteland like him and die in reality.

Tomorrow I may not be here so why not live life to its fullest today??!! I've never felt older than I have since being with him.

He's wrong!
You are right! I have a friend who is 75 who is still dating (mostly younger men), still working as a peer counselor, still traveling, changing her house, etc. About a year ago she took in a mother and two children who were with an abusive man. A few years ago she did a vision quest in the desert.

Another friend who is 90 is fighting to stay active, even tho her mind is starting to fracture a bit. She's a hoot. She was a writer in World War II, lived in Mexico, part of the National Writer's Union and we all go sit at her feet to listen.

I like your dreams! Why can't they be reality? Who says reality needs to be dismal and depressing?!!

DO NOT go gently into the night! I'm not planning on it and we are about the same age!

Your husband is full of bird doo-doo! He's just trying to convince you that you aren't worthy and I've learned that men like this are usually pushing their own fears off on the women in their lives.

Dreamers are what keep the world going around and finding new ways to help their communities. I'd rather be a dreamer than a man who puts down the woman he's supposed to support!

He's just asking you to deny reality - the reality that he's a weak man who needs to drink and put down his wife to feel good.

You go girl! You put action to your dreams and they can happen!

Daisygirl

Number5, your last comment about never feeling older than when you are with him. Remember that. He's a dream squelcher. Stear clear.

Casey, send your women friends here. I'd love to meet them.

Never let a man or anyone else tell you that you're worthless and your dreams are garbage. That isn't true and it took me 50 years to realize it!

I am who I am
God made me this way
I am who I am
I'm just me.

Sherri

Dotsie, thanks for the invite, but neither are online -- too busy living!

Number 5
I was in a marriage for 10 years...I met him when I was 16, married at 21 and divorced at 30!! He used to tell me all the time that I was worthless and that if he left me I would be all alone and nobody would want me....That was over 26 years ago!! I prospered....went back to school, went to work and now I am living alone and single...
Do not let any man tell you not to have your dreams...They are yours, and yours alone....Share with your sisters here at BWS but only share with him if you want to....
Yes...we all are going to die someday...that is a fact...but you should live each day as if it is your last. I had a aunt who died at the age of 94...I used to think that she must wake up every day and think it might be her last...but you know what? It never stopped her....she did have a stroke shortly before she died..but up to that point she was still doing crossword puzzles.
Sooo have fun with life...and live it as you want!! Verbal abuse is abuse none the less so don't be a victim to him anymore....
Kasey C

I'm getting there casey. I've let him throw down the gauntlet. He has moved into his own home just a few blocks from me and has said that he will only pay rent on the house the girls and I are living in until July 8th then we have to find somewhere else to live.

He has said that when his lease is up in a few months he is heading to a retirement community for postman. No children allowed to live there and only brief visits. No room for family to come and visit-they have to stay at a motel.

I love my husband, but there are so many things wrong with our relationship that I'm having to watch its slow demise and it hurts.

What do you love about him? That might be a good place to start and examine what you get out of this marriage. I had to do it with the ex. It's an eye opener!

Number 5
I agree with Dianne? What do you love about him? Start writing down the pros and cons of your relationship/marriage...It helps clear the head and gives you a better perspective. When I got divorced it was very hard because I had a 5 & a 2 year old and found myself alone...He did NOT pay child support....until he was forced too...
A divorce is just like a death in that you feel the loss, the remorse and you greive for what could have been....but THEN you come to the acceptance of it and you will feel like a NEW woman..I promise you that!! Nothing happens overnight but you said you had your own dreams so stay with that and let those dreams bring you comfort......
You will survive!!! We are WOMEN afterall...
Karen
****I used to be KaseyC but I thought it could be confusing with another casey on site....after all, even though it was the same name, we had different views...so, now you all know...my true name is Karen.******

Ok, Dianne and karenc, I'll do just that. I'll write down the things I love about him and the things I hate.

I think you're right that its probably saddness for the death of what could have been rather than the loss of someone who treats me like you know what.

While you're at it Number 5, you need to ask him..."What do you love about me?"

My ((((X)))) husband told me that no one would ever love me. Did I believe him? Not for a second.

Today, I have the man who deserves me...the one who loves me 'complete.' We are the self-proclaimed happiest couple in this world.(Used to be in the top 10 but hey...)
My biggest fear is having to live without him....if he goes first. Let's don't go there.

I am praying that your situation changes for your and your familys sake. It is so difficult to leave a marriage no matter what.

chick

When I was in the same boat as you number5, I kept a journal and read it whenever I started doubting myself. These men want us to deny reality and accept their version of it. It's much easier to go along with them, but it will come back to haunt you.

Daisygirl

Number5,
I think all grief is about the loss of a dream. I think losing the dream is part of what makes losing a child so horrific. We have such great dreams for our children.

From the time we are little girls, the dream of a loving marriage and family is placed in our hearts. To give up that dream is incredibly painful. And each time we lose the dream, the more painful it becomes. Writing can help ease the pain.

I'm working on a book about strategic planning for writers and I think the physiology of it applies here. Physiologically, taking a dream from an emotional dream in the right brain through the logical left brain then to the physical execution of the hind brain can relieve the overwhelming nature of emotions. Allowing emotions to emerge without constraint can make them less painful.

Writing can only help. Write down the dream then write down the logics of why finding that dream did not work out. Don't think, just write. Write it as images. Write it as poetry. Sing it. Don't fight the emotions, just write them.

That's a part of something a friend who is an art therapist does. It might be worth a try.

smile

Number 5
See? You are already on the right track talking about writing what you hate about him and how it is not such a loss of someone who treated you badly...You deserve a life of happiness as we all do....We only pass this way but once....I used to post alot of notes on my mirror in the morning...the one I liked best was
"This is the first day of the rest of your life...LIVE IT!"....don't let him get you down and go one day at a time...you WILL get thru this and be stronger....Hold your head up high!!
Karen C

Number5 did you have a chance to look up the word BLISSFUL for the new screen name you wanted to have.

Peace and love, Bliss (aka #5). The ladies have given you lots of great advice. I'll keep sending love your way....