you've all seen the angry protest marches, placards calling for death, beheadings in England. Danish and Norwegian embassies torched in Syria and now in Lebanon. Boycotts against Danish products. Ambassadors being recalled. And why ? Because cartoons 'insulted'. I dont know your opinions, but i am going to the store now and find myself some goodies to buy which come from Denmark !!

I'm snowed in; buy some for me?

I'll gladly buy some as well.

Can you imagine how many people that cartoons in this country have offended?

Their reaction seems a bit extreme to me.

People can take offense at anything they decide is offensive. In this case, the people who are doing the hating will use any excuse to riot and destroy because they hate anyone who doesn't believe the way they do.

To be honest, it scares the life out of me!

Hope you like alot of cheese Mosspatch ....
your right Ladybug, people of other faiths, and of no faith in our countries have often been offended and yet the reactions are not calls for violence, and the drawings causing the uproar are certainly mild. I dont blame you for being worried Jackie, so many people must be on edge right now, i imagine even moslems who disagree with the calls for violence are on edge, caught in the middle ..... if they speak out against their own, does that put them in jeopardy? It seems so far those who get hurt most often by extremist views are those of the same faith group..... but if they remain silent ........

These militant extremists would find another reason to act out and destroy. If it wasn't a cartoon it would be something else setting them off. These people are all crazy fanatics and they seem to be winning by the sheer insanity they display. Now don't get your panties in a knot, I don't mean the entire nation/population, I am merely referring to the small minority of trouble makers out there running amuck.....

This makes me shake my head and wonder how the world would react if Christians lashed out in violence every time something offensive was written about Jesus. I think of all the plays, TV shows (watch South Park), songs, etc., that are so degrading to the Lord and His name. We get criticized if we boycott a show or product because of sacriliges against Jesus.
In my opinion, this cartoon was an excuse to cause death and destruction.

They hate us so much its like a caldron bubbling over. I just wonder where it will end.

Don't they realize that peaceful protests are so much more effective in changing people's hearts?

I don't think they understand "peace" Bluebird...it doesn't seem to be in their vocabulary...they understand Hatred, violence, and murder...that's why we all need to reaffirm our own commitment to prayer...( in my humble opinion)

You're right Nancy, peace is not their goal...but if they knew the Prince of Peace, that would be different.

I don't believe they have been taught peace. What do you think?

I agree with you, Dotsie. It makes me very sad, but they have been taught the opposite of peace.

I just read an article that was a link on Catholicity.com, about a 16 year old Muslim boy who killed a 61 year old Italian Catholic priest, while he was praying. This happened in Turkey, where there are many millions of Muslims and only tens of thousands of Christians, but the Turkish gov't. came out and condemned this and the other violence. The Vatican has also been condemning the disrespectful nature of the cartoon. This is true respect for other people's religious beliefs. I applaud the Turkish officials and the Vatican ones.

Smile, I couldn't agree with you more.
Like attracts like, I pray and cry for the world.

Good point about the media, smile. They do tend to instigate sometimes.

I was just saying to my husband this morning that printing the cartoon in the first place was really a bad decision. I'm beginning to wonder if the words peaceful and protest have become mutually exclusive these days.

It makes me cry too, Brenda.

What really makes me sad is that our country is so divided we will be fortunate to survive the future. This is over a cartoon printed by 1 newspaper in Denmark and yet they are now protesting against US - go figure!

Daisygirl

Okay. Let's get some of the facts straight. I'm following this story because I'm researching some of the issues. The news reports are over-simlifying the story. It's not merely about the publishing of some cartoons. Yes, many of the cartoons were published. But other highly offensive ones were sent in the mail. These included depictions of Mohammad as a pig and Mohammad having sex with an animal. Now, imagine that you're a religious minority in a country that isn't exactly thrilled to have you there. Let's say you're a Christian in a Moslem country and you get pictures in the mail of Jesus depicted this way. Would you be upset? Or would you say it's all about freedom of speech? This is about respect and about cultural sensitivity as much as anything.

I can understand Muslims being upset at the cartoons and unflattering depictions of Mohammad. However, I can't accept it as justificaqtion for mass murder.

As to how the U.S. would react in a similar situation, Jesus was depicted in an even more insulting manner. The Maplethorpe exhibit displayed the cross immersed in all forms of bodily fluid and Jesus portrayed in various homosexual and heterosexual poses? It was not only tolerated as freedom of speech, it was funded by our tax dollar. Christians protested, but to my knowledge no one was murdered.

smile

[ February 09, 2006, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

DJ,

I must agree with you. AS well as what you have described, there is also the history of this conflict between muslims and the West......Many are guilty of memory-loss in this country and of being complacent.(including myself) Whereas, others, such as Muslims, have long term memory in tact, and are now lashing out in fury against mixed messages sent by countries of the west.....This is a very complicated issue, which I am not qualified to explain, but I have learned enough that says the west is not lily-white in this game, and I know that the oppressed will eventually rise up with anger. No matter where they are from nor what religion they espouse (sp?).

I see a correlation between the young people in this country who feel abandoned, bullied, and outcasted by their peers - who have taken to violence to make their point, and those in the countries of the world who have felt the same. I truly believe these are more matters of monetary class than anything else .... well, and due respect. Further, world wars have been waged on just such seemingly trivial moments...it is right we should fear the consequences.....

In short, I believe that this uproar is not predicated on today alone, but the history of our countries' behavior toward one another. Watch your history tv, gals!!!!

With consideration toward all, Searcher

I'm with you Smilinize. Some of us have to take the insult while at the same time be sensitive to the insulted.

DJ, I wouldn't say it's about freedom of speech. With freedom of speech comes responsibility. These cartoons shouldn't have been printed, just as insulting things about Jesus shouldn't be printed - but they are. This does not justify violence or murder. When the movie The Last Temptation of Christ came out many years ago, Christians were upset and offended. But I don't recall embassies being burned or other damage being done.

There's much inflammatory rhetoric on this thread. Yes there are crazy fanatics. Yes there are terrorists. There are also millions of religious, good Muslims who condemn the violence, just as you do. To say that "they" never learned peace, condemns with a very broad brush. In this country where we treasure freedom of speech, it seems that we have the responsibility to be well-informed, to educate ourselves fully about issues and not just mindlessly repeat platitudes that don't help create the peace everyone says they want. In other words, some of this rhetoric contributes to the lack of understanding among people of diverse beliefs and viewpoints. There are plenty of instances in the world about people who call themselves Christian performing acts of terrorism. If this weren't the case, there would be more appreciation of Christianity from people of other faiths, like the Moslems. I'm sure there are people who call themselves Christian (remember the Nazis?) that you might deny had anything to do with Christianity. But their behavior shouldn't lead an observer to conclude that all Christians are evil terrorists.

Where are you seeing inflammatory rhetoric?

the first page of this thread.

I believe when someone says "these fanatics" they are referring to the ones committing the violence, not all Muslims.
When I hear of Christians committing violence against others, I get just as upset.

in reading this thread, i too, took the general statements in reference to the small group of muslims who are single-mindedly violent, not the religion as a whole.

that said, i cannot excuse or justify that violence with past or present sins of christianity. yes, there is a lot of history behind the atrocities we are seeing every day in the news but nothing can justify it.

should we be that philosophical about it if the american indians decide to take back the countryside via murderous raids on farms and ranches? or what about black americans deciding to lynch whites at random for the sins committed against their race? nothing justifies random murder and violence. nothing.

personally i dont care if someone believes the world exists on the back of a turtle .. as long as their beliefs dont bring about harm to others... yes, there has been evil committed by those calling themselves 'christian' and often the evil was justified as a 'teaching' of christianity..... but i sure cant find any teachings of Jesus that would justify any acts which inflict pain on others ..... a few years ago i bought an english copy of the koran hoping to gain a deeper appreciation of it's teaching ... i ended up giving it away ... seemed to me alot of violence by sincere believers could be justified according to it's teachings .... but apparently there are other equally sincere moslems who have come to different conclusions..

[ February 09, 2006, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: norma ]

Good for you Norma, for investigating for yourself. I have heard different experts talk about the Koran and how violent it is and how Mohammed came into power. Some say that the Muslims who are peaceful are not following the Koran. I've heard on the news that some of the leaders have stirred this all up and they continue to do so.

People have done horrible things in the name of Christianity, but that does not mean they are true believers. I wonder if any of those people in history who committed atrocities in the name of God are with Him now. I bet not. We can fool humans into thinking we are good, but God knows the true heart of each man and woman.

Daisygirl

I too have read the Koran. But I also have studied the history of Islam (and of Christianity). The early Muslims (monotheists) were under constant assault by barbarians, which is why some of it reads the way it does. Also, the Koran extols Jesus and includes passages about Mary.

That's true. Muslims don't believe that Jesus is God but they do honor Mary - more than most Christians do.
Another interesting note. Many of you have heard of the apparitions known as Our Lady of Fatima. They were in Portugal in 1917 and supposedly Mary appeared to 3 young children there.
Fatima was the name of Muhammed's daughter.

Bluebird, when the MapleThorpe exhibit was mentioned it brought back memories of another art show in which an artist used elephant dung to make a portrait of Mary!!

I thought I must be seriously out of touch with art because I thought not only did it look horrible, but it seemed it was mocking Mary. I wasn't sure what the artist was trying to convey. It looked like he sat his butt on the canvas and had an epiphany of his last night's dinner. Truly disgusting.

The MapleThorpe exhibit, if I'm not mistaken, caused such a brouhaha in Cincinnati that it was closed down and deservedly so.

Some people just like to shock others. I thought the purpose of art is to make you feel good or teach a truth or just uplift one's spirit.
I feel sorry for people who don't understand life, love or beauty enough to not offend others.
How sad they must be.

It is my understanding that the democratically elected goverment of Iran was overthrown in 1952 with outside western help because the iranian president wanted to nationalize oil fields in order to raise the living standards of his own people ..... ... that the shah of iran who then came into power had a secret police force called 'savak' ...... which constantly terrorized iranians through torture ...... and this brought about revolution and government of clerical rule, sharia law .... and that western dollars and military hardware were continually funneled to afghanistan warlords to fight russians .... despite the abusive undemocratic beliefs of those warlords who ruled their various groups ...... and that similiar aid was given to sadam hussein and his government during the iran-iraq war .... despite the extremely cruel rule of hussein ..... and that there are top western leaders who have been close business partners and friends with saudi rulers ...... who represent a regime which is as far removed from democracy, equality and the protection of human rights as one can get ....... but i could be wrong in these understandings .......

seems to me many hands on all sides have been causing hate and discontent .... unfortunately it is the common woman, man and child who too often pay the price .... no matter which country one lives in ..... but i am optimistic ..... just as race has now become a non issue for most ... so creed will become a non issue as the desire for shared human rights, equality and decent standards of living continue to spread....

[ February 09, 2006, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

I'd like to see that happen too Norma.

There is nothing new under the sun.
Just as humans have wonderful traits like love, compassion, nurturing, giving, sharing and mercy, we also have traits like hatred, beliggerance, intolerance, anger, selfishness, etc.
It is our fallen nature. We should each strive to bring out our own, and others', good traits. If others choose to live and act unkindly, we can at least have peace that we tried to be the best we could be. We can't change everyone, but we can change ourselves.

From what I have gathered in an article in our Plain Dealer today this whole cartoon problem was started by a young Islamic scholar and Danish activist named Ahmed Akkari. He flew to Beirut with copies of cartoons depicting Muhammad. This happened in December and over the next few weeks he had handed out copies of his booklet to the grand mufti of Egypt, leaders of the Arab League, the top official of the Lebanese Christian church and others.

The problem was that his booklet contained not only the 12 depictions of Muhammad that appeared in the September newspaper Jylands-Posten but also was filled with hideous, amateur images of the prophet as a dog , a pig, a woman and a child being sodomized by a madman. Akkari insists he separated these images from the newspaper cartoons by several pages of letters. "How could anyone mistake these for the newspaper images?" he asked.

While he still expresses anger at the media for glibly printing these images he regrets the results and is looking for a way to quickly resolve this crisis. He has acknowledged that the riots have placed his fellow European Muslims in a far worse position than they had previously known. His friends, strangers and family members are now blaming him for exactly the thing he says he was trying to prevent: the caricaturing of Muslims as violent fanatics.

That is true, DJ, there are Christians who don't believe it. But I guess my point was that I think it's neat that Muslims honor Mary.

I like to know the beginnings of things because it helps me to understand why things are happening NOW.

Here is what I have been taught all my life: God promised Abraham a son and said he would be the father of many nations.(OT) The promise was delayed in being fulfilled until Sara his wife was way past childbearing years. Both Abraham and Sara laughed at the promise of a son at their ages. Sara gave Tamar, her handmaiden to Abraham to sleep with and conceive so that God's promise could be fulfilled.
Tamar got pregnant and gave birth to Ishmael with Abraham as sire. THEN Sara got pregnant with Isaac, which means laughter. Isaac was the intended heir and father of many nations.
Jealousy erupted between Tamar and Sara, each wanting their son to be the favorite.
Eventually Abraham ordered Tamar and her son into the wilderness with just enough supplies to get them by and God sent angels to attend to them.
The nation of Islam are the direct heirs of Tamar and Abraham. The nation of Israel are the direct heirs of Abraham and Sara his wife and Isaac is the rightful heir and son promised by God to be heir to all that God promised to Abraham.
There will always be enmity between Israel and the Arab nation. Its like oil and water trying to mix.

I'm afraid you may be right, Number5. I've never really understood why. In reality, if you trace both races back to the beginning, they should be very much alike. But as long as they can't agree that they can peacefully co-exist, they will never be at peace.

I've been praying for a miracle in that part of the world for many years. Maybe if enough of us did that, it would make an impression. I've always been a dreamer, I guess.

Ladybug, our news and the bbc news have also said the same thing .... the published 12 'cartoons' are easily accessible to anyone with the net, and most certainly they do not show anyone having sex with an animal, nor made to look as a pig etc... .... nor were any koran burnings planned in Denmark..... another rumor that started and inflamed people, the question could be asked was that also an accidental rumor or a planted story .....

[ February 09, 2006, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Does anyone else believe we may be at the beginning of WWIII?

It's entirely possible

But Norma, God came to earth as a baby born in a stable. He came to heal those wounds and ease that pain. He was crucified and hung on a cross, but love remained and lives still today in the hearts of those who believe.

God's love is powerful and miraculous. I can do nothing but pray and believe that His love will end the killing and the hatred and heal our world.

smile

AMEN to that.....we can only hope and pray that insanity does not reign supreme.

Ladies, I'm normally an optimistic person, but I think the worst thing we can do is keep our heads in the sand. We really need to be strong and prepared for whatever my happen in our future.

Pray for the best, prepare for the worst.

That's our family motto, Bluebird.

The world certainly does seem to be in a mess right now. One can only hope and pray some of the craziness stops.

What I don't understand is, what do the Muslims hope to gain by destroying us? It seems that just as Hitler thought that by eliminating a whole race of people, the radical Muslims want to eradicate us.
Maybe the Bush administration knows something we don't know that the Clinton adm. knew also. Perhaps if we did know, it would stir a worldwide panic.

I read in the NYT yesterday that the radical Muslims are now attacking the U.S. for the cartoons published in Denmark because we represent the west and are therefore the epitome of the Infidel.

Some Muslims say it is a misrepresentation of the Koran, but what I read seemed to command Muslims to destroy the infidel which they claim we are. Destruction of the infidel is to be carried out even at the cost of their own lives, which means that to destroy the world, including themselves, with nuclear weapons would fulfill their god given obligation to eradicate the infidel (US) from the earth.

I see no way to counter that except with love, faith, and prayer.

smile

What if all the "infidels" converted to Islam?? Would they still want to destroy us? and what of the many American Muslims, do they hate them too?

I've heard it said there are cells throughout the US that are just waiting for orders to go into motion and pull another 9/11. It is a fragile balancing act our gov. is playing right now no matter who is in power. The need to keep on top of terrorist activity is so important yet, our privacy is being taken away from us more and more. Just look up at a stop light, there is a camera pointed right at you and at WalMart and at work and at the daycare and at the bank and convenience store.

We live in a fishbowl yet people disappear and can't be found...its all very confusing.

One more thought....please

If we as believers in a higher power than ourselves also believe that each person, before they were even conceived, existed in the mind of God, and our days are numbered from birth and God knows the number of our days, and each of us has an appointment with death, then I have to believe that I won't go before my appointment time no matter which way I go. God surely knows the way I will go also.

I believe it is in Psalms 139, my favorite chapter in the Bible, the one I run to when I am troubled or think God may have lost my address and phone number. LOL

I had to see what your favorite Psalm was. Here you go.

Number5, I have to agree with you about our appointment with death. What a comfort after reading all this scary stuff. Thank you.

Psalm 139

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"

12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

17 How precious to [b] me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!

18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.

19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!

20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.

21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?

22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.

24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

www.biblegateway.com

Number 5...I second that thank you...I may be ( to borrow one of Dotsie's sayings) a Pollyanna...but I firmly believe that God loves us and therefore will take care of us...we just have to keep praying and having Faith in Him.

Dotsie...thanks for looking up the Psalm Number 5 mentioned and printing it here for us to read...

Religious understandings always differ ... that is why (in my opinion) countries with state religions will always be dangerous places for individuals .....

For example, while the above verses from psalms suggests our days alloted on earth are specified prior to our birth, another can read Job, and say our days are not numbered before birth..

"For He does NOT appoint a time unto any man when he should go before God in judgement" ... the words of Eliu to Job (Job 34;23)...

Many who accept Christianity could say the above psalm with the following words is now invalid because of Jesus's words of loving one's enemy, doing good to them .....

"Do i not HATE THOSE who hate you O Lord and ABHOR THOSE who rise against You"
"I have nothing but HATRED for them i count them as my enemies." (from the pslam quoted above)

If only religious 'leaders' teach what is 'truth' we have problems, if we journey into it ourselves, we have problems ...... I think God, should have been a little more specific on many things.....

In the meantime, if we try to refrain from doing to others, what we dont want done to us ... maybe there can be a spreading of peace and goodwill across our world......

[ February 10, 2006, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Being prepared for the worst is nothing new for us boomers. We grew up learning in grade school what to do if Russia sent the big one over.

Air raid drills. Hated them...

i was always just confused about those air raid drills. we were herded into the hallways and told to assume the position - on your knees, forehead and elbows to the floor and hands behind your head or neck.

what confused me was, i couldn't figure out what kind of bomb was going to blow up my classroom without damaging the hallway. just didn't make sense.

aside from that, there was the occaional "sonic boom" that sent thrills through us and made the day a little more of an adventure...

Norma, I for one really appreciate your insight into the Psalms. It sometimes appears that there are conflicting verses in the Bible between the Old and the New Testaments. But, the difference between the Old and the New is Jesus. Jesus fulfilled many of the Rabinnical laws such as 'not getting your ox out of the ditch on the Sabbath', etc. Grace and forgiveness and love originated on the Cross and the blood of Christ covers a multitude of sins.

The New Testament doesn't negate the Old however, and there is a natural flow between the two as the OT fortells the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ.

If you read the entire 34th Psalm, what Elihu was speaking of was the justice of God. How He doesn't consider the king or noble any more than the poor when it comes to justice (18)(19) because the rich, the poor, "the noble and king were all created by Him and in a moment they die, in the middle of the night; the people are shaken and pass away..."(20)
His eyes are on the ways of man, and He sees all his steps. There is no darkness to hide in and in (22) basically, why should He give man the time of day? Why should God even trouble Himself to HAVE a judgement? After all, He is God. He made us and he could break us at His whim. (my interpretation)

Jesus (New Testament) taught us to love our enemies and do good to them who despitefully use you but to hate sin. God being Holy and without sin in OT hated sin and there was no relief from the burden of it and the results of it. That is why he loved us so much that He sent His only son to die for us so that we would have a path to Him and Forgiveness. (My interpretation)
God is very clear throughout the entire Bible about 'who' He is, 'what' He expects of us and exactly what to expect from Him. The Bible even tells us what to expect in the future and what will happen at the end of time but assures us that He will never leave us or forsake us.
So, while I deeply respect your opinion, it is also important to take the whole chapter and all the others that flow in reading and interpretation rather than taking a piece out of the pie without being sure if it is an apple or a cherry pie.

Norma, it seems the Muslim sector in Akron, Ohio is gearing up for a protest because a cartoon of Muhammad was published in the newspaper there. The cartoon face of Muhammed was pixilated which gave it a blurry effect. Someone made a comment that Muhammed appeared to be on "Acid." Acid of course meaning LSD which in turn has enraged some Muslims.

I find it hypocritical that our own Plain Dealer refuses to publish these cartoons while it finds no problem publishing denegrating ones of our Bishop Pilla, president Bush, Indians, our senators, Christians, evangelists etc, etc. No one here has protested in a violent manner or killed anyone over these insulting cartoons.

I also told the newspaper that they are being hypocritical and caving into fear. I am on a volunteer citizens advisory committee for this newspaper which asked my opinion on this very subject.

In all honesty, Ladybug, I think I would be apprehensive about publishing one of those cartoons too. The reason is that the people of this belief system seem to take 'radical' to unprecedented limits.
They don't think like most of us do about fairness and apparently they don't understand the sense of humor that can take a ribbing...and aren't taught the same principles. To publish one of those cartoons could incite a violent riot.

that is so excellent Number 5 ..... you made my point perfectly .. (i was fully aware of the following words of Eliu and of Jesus's words) ... there can be confusion based on the words of 'sacred text' (even what a person means right here ) ... and that is why cutting off hands and heads, beating one's wife, veiling women from head to foot, executing apostates can be justified by some followers of islam and not by others .... likewise, being a soldier, a police officer, a prison guard can justified by some christians and not by others ... that is why nations having state relgions can be 'dangerous places' ..... and why, when we see each other as neighbours, rather than atheist, christian, moslem, buddist, or whatever, working together for the benifit of all will become easier ...... just as race is a non issue for most today, (and yet in our lifetime it had been a big issue ) .. creed will become a non issue ..... because there is a higher creed that we can all accept ..... we are each human beings who share basic needs and share the same planet .......

[ February 11, 2006, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Norma, I hope you're right. This same conflict has been going on for so many centuries though, that I don't see an end to it soon.

Of course, Norma, I think I've made it clear to everyone here that I do believe that there is such a thing as absolute truth. I also, humbly believe that I know what that truth is and who it is based in.
I'm not a New Ager or an Aquarian although I would defend their right to be whatever they choose to be.
I don't believe, in my opinion, that there will ever be peace on earth though I will always be an advocate of peace. Peace originates out of a knowledge that we really have nothing to fear, not even death when our lives are where they were meant to be from the beginning of time.
I don't agree that other 'creeds' have the answer. We might be able to work together but I don't see it happening and the day that a person comes on the scene who can unite all and bring peace, anyone other than Jesus Christ, I will know that we've reached the end of time or that it is near.

Hi Number5, just wanted to jump in here and say I do agree with you about the reason newspapers may have a reluctance to print these cartoons. I also wanted to say I hadn't meant to cover your questions to Norma, hope no offense was taken there.

Do you think that sometimes in our demands for the rights of freedom of speech that we have pushed the envelope of decency? It wasn't that long ago that we understood what went beyond the boundaries and we respected that.

[ February 11, 2006, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

Is World War III on the way? No, I believe it's Armegeddon.

There are so many freedoms that have morphed to fit our changing society and circumstances it seems. Freedom probably shouldn't mean freedom from respect and consideration for others.

No offense taken, Ladybug. I think its Armageddon too, but what do I know? I hope its not yet although the Bible speaks of the outcome. I'm just waiting for that guy or gal to step up all smiles and bring about that peace that the world clamors for. It could be very soon but so short lived and the outcome will be so bad for so many.
It makes me very sad even though I know it has to happen. It makes me feel an urgency to pray for all the ones I love so much who still don't have their lives right.

Amen to that Number5.

With so many millions of us wanting peace and practising tolerance for each other why is it so hard for other countries to do the same?

Why does it work in America and many other countries but eludes the middle east and smaller segments of Europe? Do their cultures inhibit them from true harmony among one another?

Number5 and Sherri, what do you see are the signs of Armageddon? Have all the "signs" or prophesies been met?

[ February 11, 2006, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

Ladies are we quite sure as Americans we do practice tolerance towards one another? Do all want peace? I think not, just look around us at the intolerance some openly show against our elected officials, against God in the schools or anywhere for that matter. Yet there seems to be a tolerance for spousal and child abuse and animal abuse runs rampant. Sex offenders get a slap on the wrist and are set free to offend again and again. Parents are leaving their babies in cars to die in the summer heat and it is considered a misdemeanor. Our faith leaders are continually bad mouthing others beliefs. Newspaper only look for the sensational to print and more women and children that ever are disappearing only to be found dead or never found at all. Human trafficking is the crime of the decade. If this is practicing tolerance and peace then Armageddon could be here sooner than later. I see no difference between America and other countries really except they are radicals and make noise, riot and kill, where as we Americans sit quietly allowing ourselves to be thought of as civilized...humm!

[ February 11, 2006, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

Yes, I'm afraid you are so right as usual Chatty. I think I was being overly-optimistic when I wrote that because I think I do see that most of the women on BWS are for peace and tolerance. All of my friends are peace-loving good people.
There are a lot of bad things happening all around us but I don't want to lose hope just yet.

I know what you mean as are the ones I know, relatives and friends alike, all good God fearing, family loving, neighbor respecting people. Then where do ALL those others come from I wonder? They seem to be gaining in strength and numbers and its frightening to me personally but I like yourself, try to have hope and believe that maybe just once good will prevail in the end.

Ladybug, first I agree completely with Chatty about the moral state of our nation and the hypocracy demonstrated here.

Second, I think the Bible explains the last days as a woman who is pregnant and about to give birth. The world has been building up to this time and this time might be a few weeks, a few months or a few hundred years.

In my humble opinion, the labor pains have started. Israel became a nation and the Jewish race has been gathered together from all parts of the world where they were scattered.

The European common market comprises 14 nations, I believe, eventually it will be comprised of 10 nations with a charismatic leader.

The United States will cease to become the world's trade leader and the world's most powerful nation. England will always be our friend.
We'll be required to take a "mark" whether it is a smart chip or some other form of identity on our forehead or hand, possibly arm in order to be able to buy or sell or receive medical treatment or enter college.
Cleansings of peoples will take place for mother Earth, to get rid of the intolerant ones for peace to reign and to usher in an Aquarian age.

Those are just a few of the things I have learned and many of them have already happened and/or are in the works right now.

There is a super computer in Brussells Belgium that has every human being on the planet's info downloaded. And the New Age base of operations is in Scotland.

Don't know all the details yet, but I'm researching everyday and you'd be surprised who and what people are involved and why.

Number5, are you familiar with the teachings of Maitreya "the Christ"?

Bluebird, I've heard of him. I've heard of miracles and teachings, that he is able to levitate, etc.

Beyond that, I really don't know that much about him. My eye is on Prince Philipe of Spain and the whole lineage of the Hapsburgs and how they intermarried with the Spanish royalty.

I believe the anti-Christ will be a 'virgin' birth also or a counterfeit 'virgin' birth. There is a lot of interesting material out there and a lot is happening.

I remember years ago when a Bible prophecy teacher was saying that King Juan Carlos of Spain was the antichrist. Some think it will be Prince Charles (he's involved in alot of new age stuff)

The United States of America has an overflow of good people !!!! And those good and decent neighbours of yours Chatty and ladybug are typical of most neighbours all over your nation, mine nation, and around the world !

If 9/11 did nothing else, it proved this, with the outpouring of grief, concern and immediate aide from every age, race, and economic group in your country..... !

There is advantage and profit to be made when peope are frightened ..... why do drug companies advertise anti depressants during nightly news hours .......... why do newspapers, tv programs, repeat and repeat and repeat again discussions of horrific crimes, and details of sexual misbehaviiors or supposed misbehaviours of the rich and famous ..... no matter how many innocent are effected by those discussions ..... does the reading or viewing audience not buy more papers, or are they not exposed to more advertisements .... . who profits when civil wars within nations go on for years and years each side having a continual supply of weaponry ...... is there not someone making money when nations go to war against each other ....... can not certain ruling elites continue to rule with absolute control when people are afraid, either of their neighbour next door, or their neighbor in another country ...... how do those within the 'watch tower, bible and tract society maintain control of so many . ....if not for their constant publications and preachings of horrendous news .... how do many religious leaders manage to frighten if not by descriping God, as one who tortures beyond belief any not accepting certain absolutes ....

There will always be trouble in the world, yes,
.... but the good done by people will always outweigh the bad .. our younger people have a right to know the other side of our world and the good of it 's people ......

[ February 12, 2006, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Norma, there are some unscrupulous religious leaders who try to control other believers, usually for monetary gain. However, Christianity (the only religion I can speak for) is all about freedom. I am not required to do anything to be a Christian, except for accepting Jesus Christ into my heart. My heart changed when I did that and I now see things differently than I did before. I now have a desire to be more like Him. It is a relationship between me and God, not me and a minister or pastor. I'm not controlled by any religious leader and neither are any others I know personally, although certainly many are.

Daisygirl

Norma, you are so right. Young people need to know that there are good people in this world who they can depend on and trust. I want my kids to BE one of those people others can trust and count on.

There is a lot of stuff going on in our world but the Bible says that where iniquity abounds, grace does much more abound and I'm so thankful for that!!

I appreciate your opinions and your cheerful outlook. What a nice lady you must be.

Bluebird,
After your post, I looked up the Maitreya Bodhisattva and found that he is the future Buddha in Buddhist eschatology.

Seems they believe he will eventually appear, if he isn't here already, on earth, achieve complete enlightenment, and teach the pure dharma.

He'll be the successor of the historic Sakyamuni Buddha, (the fat, smiling one with arms lifted...)

He will be a World Ruler uniting those who he rules over and his coming will be marked by a mumber of physical events like the oceans shrinking enabling him to traverse from country to country freely.

Supposedly he will bring an end to death, warfare, famine and disease (and rebirth) as well as the ushering in of a new societ;y of tolerance and love.

L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology has also claimed to be the fulfillment of Maitreya prophecy in a poem called Hymn of Asia.

Very interesting stuff. If I were going to try and keep the truth from someone, one of the tactics I would use would be to baffle em with BS or camoflauge the truth, or I would dilute it by adding so many 'truths' to the pot that unless you studied and could recognize the absolute truth, you wouldn't be able to pick it out of the rest.

Jesus said, "I am the good Shepherd. My sheep recognize my voice and follow me." If you know your shepherd, you do recognize his voice and all the other 'shepherds' are easy to recognize for what they are.

Well there is a group called Share International that claims he is here already. He is lving in London in a Pakistani community. There's a man named Benjamin Creme who channels a spirit known as The Master, who tells him stuff about Maitreya. I have been reading about this "world teacher" for years now, thorugh the online magazine for Share Int'l. The teachings sound wonderful at the beginning but as they go on, it goes into the whole "You are God" stuff.
I like to keep my eyes and ears open because I truly believe I will be alive during the antichrist's reign. Scary, but exciting.

As far as recognizing the absolute truth - do you know how they teach people to recognize counterfeit money? It's not by showing them counterfeit bills and making them study them. They make them totally familiar with real bills, then they are better able to recognize the fake ones. That's exactly what we have to do, in order to recognize all these fake Christs when they come on the scene.

Daisy, i think the wonderful freedom you speak of does come from God ... God's love is forgiving, encouraging, understanding, merciful and gentle .... it does not include fear .... love begets love and freedom ... for me, some of the clearest words descriping the 'way' of 'life', are in the words of paul as he speaks of love in his letter to the corinthians ....

Number 5, thank you for that nice compliment...
if truth be told though, i have no option but to believe in a most wonderous God and in the good outweighing the bad on earth and beyond .... because the alternative is too awful to for me to accept ..... whether it was true or not ....

have an excellent day each of you .... life is good !!

Here is an interesting and addictive site on
endtimes....

http://www.raptureready.com

Interesting reading no matter who we are or what
we believe.

Daisy, every morning I read from the good book, journal and add people to my prayer folder.

I read and learn every day, but it always ends with my desire to be more like HIm and less like me.

It's all so very simple.

More You,
less me.

Dotsie, I need to be more disciplined in my spritual life and maybe I could be more like Him. But He doesn't force me to do it and He still loves me when I don't. He accepts me at whatever level I am now.

Todays news headlines show protestors in Pakistan vandalizing a Ronald McDonald figure and burning U.S. businesses there. Windows were broken at a Holiday Inn and Pizza Hut while hotels, a Citibank and KFC were burned. It is supposedly the worst violence Pakistan has ever seen. Thousands of people rampaged through two cities on Tuesday. All of this ocurred because of the cartoons published in a Danish newspaper back in September.
I can't seem to find out who actually drew these cartoons. Were they originally drawn by Americans or is this just an opportunity seen by some as a reason to protest the U.S. and our presence in their land?

Not drawn by an American....This is just another excuse for these insane radicals to spew out there hatred for people they envy and would destroy if given the chance....this whole thing is so ridiculous.

Thanks for the reply Chatty. My exact thoughts too...just an excuse.

Well, kindness sure doesn't seem to work with them. I don't know what would reach them. They race through the streets cutting themselves and call it self flaguation. My dear mother once tried to describe the act of self flaguation and mispronounced the word. You can imagine what she came up with. We all laughed until we cried.

Anyway, I agree, Chatty, it seems any excuse will do to attack.

I loved it today when someone wrote in to the editorial page of our newspaper and pointed out how biased they were by not printing these cartoons. They went on to chastise the Plain Dealer: "The Plain Dealer has in the past printed on numerous occasions cartoons that have mocked the Catholic pope and has mocked and ridiculed the Holy Eucharist. Maybe the Catholics need to start a revolt and do damage to newspaper buildings to get some respect. Naw, WWJD?"

Are these riots really spontaneous and based on the love of a prophet or are they instigated by those fearing loss of power, control, prestige and or natural resources? If one can openly discuss official state religion, couldn't one begin discussing and questioning alot more things?

For example, how in saudia arabia can i be top boss in my family, if women also were allowed to drive, move about without a male relative escort, have more then one spouse, or divorce me as easily as i can divorce her ?? How in certain countries can i control my daughters if the lash or execution is not allowed by my religion to ensure they stay in line?

On the other hand, if i care not for my religion but after studing 'The Project for the New American Century' (pnac) i fear foreign takeover or rule by large foreign corporations how can such activity be discouraged?

these are dumb questions but if it is true that those who control the wealth make the rules and if it is true that the U.S. is now carrying a massive debt load owed in part to Saudia Arabia and China ....... i think real nightmares could be facing our grandchildren...

[ February 18, 2006, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Never better said, Norma. Only you forgot one other thing - retaliation for western countries promising one thing and delivering another. In the past. But I agree - these things are exactly what ALL this is about....

I know that sometimes I sound as if I'm condoning what is being done, but I am not stating what I believe with clarity. What I believe is just what you've said and I just said - not giving anyone any justification for violence at all, but giving a reason for the problem in hopes we can avoid it in the future. I'm not so sure it's at all possible, but it is necessary to try anything. It's all very frightening to me, but the world has been a frightening place since.....well, since recorded history.

Not dumb questions in the least, but obviously well researched ones. And have you ever doubted that any part of our world is controlled by wealth? And yeah, what is that about our having a debt to CHINA? I don't get it....But then I haven't done as much homework as I should.

Well, Smile,

I am not very articulate on these matters, but just from watching history channel and some others, I understand that it all began during the Ottoman Empire. The British promised them that they would return power to the locals, but did not. When the United States allied with England later, we were included in the distrust. You can find more info just by going to encyclopedia.com and looking up Iraq. There is much history involved here, including the World Wars, and we did support Hussein in the Iran/Iraq war when it suited our needs of the time. Not to say we did wrong, but gives a reason for the distrust they have. There is much more than is explained at encyclopedia, but you would have to look up Iraq history.

The world, in my view, has always been about power, which really means wealth and control of rescources regardless of the religious reasons given at the time....

You could pm me and we could discuss further....

The Ottoman Empire orginated in Turkey in the fifteenth century and ended almost a hundred years ago. Several attempts to return power to local tribes resulted in anarchy and tribal warfare which has killed more Iraqis than any other force.

Our dependence on England ended more than two-hundred years ago so that doesn't appear to be a rational reason for Muslims to hate our country.

I see nothing that would lead to the conclusion that we have "promised one thing and delivered another." However, the history of that area is very complex, and if there are specific incidents, please let us know.

I believe their hatred for us is more related to the cultivation, long term use, and on-going trafficking of heroin and cocaine. Those drugs steal the spirit and instill hatred. Over centuries, I believe persistent drug use has permeated the culture and drug induced hatred can now be acted on as a result of the power and money from oil.

I believe our country has made mistakes, but we have also been more humane, even to our enemies, than any other country in the world. We have so much more to be proud of than guilty about.

smile

[ February 18, 2006, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

I only think that this problem is deeply rooted and is not the result of one or two things.... I surely am not saying that our country should feel guilty over anything, I'm just trying to give reason to the underlying causes for hate and mistrust. I am sure our own country has many such reasons for mistrust of others....and we do not behead people.

Yes, as I said, this originated many years ago.

I did not say that we were dependent upon England at the time. I said we were allied with them.

Something came to my mind awhile ago. I was studying some involvements of phrases, colloqualisms and so on, in our culture..I began to realize that many phrases I grew up with really came from my families Irish heritage, and so too, the German side. I had never before noticed that these phrases were not spoken by my friends' families. (who were mostly Skandinavian). It occurred to me that my parents learned these phrases (and opinions) from theirs. And on down the line. My father's family came from Ireland 5 generations ago - and still, there were verbal ties in our day to day lives. Then I started to realize that emotions, viewpoints and cultural perspectives are handed down as easily as blue eyes or brown hair...And that these things are tied together by many, many years ago - centuries even - but not so many PEOPLE ago. 5 generations is only 5 people - in lineage. One mother exhibiting her view to her child, and the child to hers. In thinking this way, it is easy to understand how hatred can be passed down for hundreds of years. or love of something as well....That is not to say that the opinions should not be changed, just that they are there.


In any case, I have not, as I have said ,studied these events in great detail. So am not qualified to discuss them in great detail. And as I see that this topic can cause great emotion, I think I should defer from further remarks. At least until I have studied this in more depth.

The history of the Middle East and America is so complicated, I'm not sure anyone can be fully informed. But to accept responsibility without evidence can be self destructive.

I certainly agree with your point about generational attitudes. I believe that attitudes of hatred and also attitudes of guilt can be passed from generation to generation.

But maybe we should all examine our long-held attitudes to determine if they still serve us and if they are based on fact or on myth.

Broad statement of fact not supported with evidence is Rhetoric and far too often lately, rhetoric is spoken as fact and reported as news. At this point in history, that could be both destructive and dangerous.

smile

If it's okay, let me show you some excellent 'facts' and it may at least, give you each a smile ...

my dad's parents came from Sweden and i happen to have a very large informative book which belonged to my grandfather. It was published in Minneapolis, Minn. in 1904 and was compiled and edited by the most learned Scandianvian
Professor Mr. O.N. Nelson, Ph. D. He showed through his collected data, who you can trust, and who you should beware of ....

"since each nationality and race has certain characteristics of virtue and vice ..." (according to Professor Nelson,) "a careful examination of the proportionate number of convicts by nationalities, may serve as a key to arrive at the causes which lead people to commit offenses against the law. "

Some of his definite conclusions based on studing inmate population within prisons ......

Illinois, 1880
"Those born in Canada have by far the worst showing , the proportion of convicts to the whole number being one to 479 " ..

Wisconsin, 1881-2
"One out of ever 3,021 convicts, Canadian born"
(the highest number in the record books)

1892
"Canada it should be noticed not only retains her position, but her standing is more than twice as ugly as ten years before and Ireland shows only one-forth as large a porportion of convicts as Canada"

"These figures throw a new and most important light on the criminality of the different nationalities. The Canadians retain their position, clearly proving themselves to be the most vicious class of citizens in the state."

He later goes on to study the number of immigrants in the 'insane asylums'.... where unfortunatly those of us with scandiavian blood didn't do to well.... but canadians, although the most 'vicious' had the fewest number committed to 'insane asylums'...

i forgot to mention, there were fewer scandianvians in prison populations, which obviously proves who makes the most law abiding citizens ... so now you know who to watch out for ...

[ February 18, 2006, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

I do feel I need to respond one last time. Smile, I have no animosity toward you whatsoever. My own family invited lively discussions at the dinner table, including all who had differing opinions (and even a raised voice was permissable if not a screaming one), so I respect yours. In fact, we had a great time and left feeling like we had learned something! The only rule was that we were not allowed to call each other names and resort to "hitting below the belt" (meaning personal attacks). Not that this has happened here at all, I'm just relating...I remember these discussions with fondness and a smile on my face. Oh yeah, and no fisticuffs either!!LOL

So - here is what I say. In respect to Dotsie's wish that we do not ask people to leave the site, I will refrain from giving links. But. If you will look in almost any history of Iraq and the West (which by THEIR definition includes both England and the United States) you will find related what I've said. Both histories BY the West and the Middle East each report the same events. It WAS promised that they should have their own rule, but was denied later. So this is not just rhetoric, but written history. Now that leads to another question, How accurate is written history? By whom was it written and what real credibility did they have? And as we know, if I wrote a history of my immediate family, and my sister did the same, they would surely differ. But overall, most facts would remain very similar.


So in that same spirit, I would like to say - Our shared history with the Middle East (and indeed, all the world) IS complicated. We, you and I , can never hope to know all that has truly occurred, nor all the implications. What I do know is this: if we all (all over this shrinking world) don't learn to respect our similarities more than our differences, we will never deviate from what has gone before. We will (as you have put it so well )never be able to know whether our long-held attitudes still serve us or are merely myth. There does need to be evidence - but evidence, on any side, is always plentiful - we need to get somewhere beyond this, a deeper understanding of what our humanity means in terms of our nations separateness, but also in terms of our shared experiences as human - beings. I still say that much of this also, is about class difference. Well, by that I mean wealth differences...And educational opportunities....We in the West, have so much these days, and most (notwithstanding their own wealthy, who, in my view, leave their masses to ruin )have barely an existence at all. To be swept up in any revolt which they think might better their current situation. A hungry man is easily led. And a hungry man is an angry one when he views others who are well fed .

To end, I invite you to pm me for further discussion, but I must leave this forum, because I know that this will only escalate, if not by myself or you, by others. It's just human nature. In forums, or war.

Respectfully, Searcher

Norma!

That is beyond a doubt, the most hilarious account of anything I've heard in a very long time!!!! You dastardly Canadians, you! You really insane, murderous, vicious people!!!! OMG, that is REALLY something. So much for statistics......OMG again - I think that's more important than it seems funny......that just has so many implications.... Wow. Thanks, Norma!!! Glad your family kept this and hope it will bring light to many.

Now I'm really going, I mean it! (just like Mamma, I really mean it this time!!!)

Search

Searcher, where are you going??? I hope you are only kidding. I'm sure many others share my feelings: I like you a lot so hope you mean you simply don't want to add anything else to this particular discussion.

oh, of course, Ladybug. I just think this particular discussion leads to escalation without some sort of mediator....Personally, I have fun with this sort of thing - well, maybe I shouldn't say fun, well, yeah, FUN, but it makes me think, come alive, be interested -- without bad feelings. But I think that in this type of situation, people have gotten beyond themselves and bad feelings HAVE developed. A pity. And I don't wish to contribute to that - I think that a personal conversation might be just fine.....we'll see.

I personally, would like to invite such discussions, with rules as I have described adhered to - but the past conversations on political issues have proved too confrontational to be of value - (not including the present one - but fearing it might) so am just refraining from posting on this particular issue further.

Thank you , Ladybug, I like you too!!! Not leaving BWS, just this conversation for now!

Search

Good, I'm glad to hear it Searcher. I know what you mean and sometimes I enjoy a lively debate too but not with feelings getting hurt or misunderstandings. That happens too easily because we can't hear or see each other and maybe things come across harshly and they aren't meant to be...so...see you in another topic?

Certainly!

And I agree with you, without the addition of body language and voice inflections , etc. things easily get misinterpreted. Altho this is a great way to make contact with others, it's not perfect either......Yeah, see you in other topics!

Searcher, just a couple more interesting historical facts from Professor Nelson, so you wont have the wrong impression of scandiavians and think their higher numbers in 'asylums' indicated something uncommon.....

"wealthy americans do not send their .... kindred to a state institution, but to a private asylum, from which it is difficult to secure any reliable statistical reports."

"the .... statistics of Illinois must nessarily be defective, because yearly reports from the Cook county insane asylum present the appearance of having been prepared and edited by the ..... themselves." therefore "using the same data as above, but leaving out entirely the returns of the insane asylum of Cook county,
the proportion (of scandianavians in asylums) changes."

Certain statistics, "indicate that the Scandiavian-born inhabitants of Iowa, send a larger proportion of their ... to the state hospitals than some other nationalities do."


"Perhaps a majority of scandinavians in america take a more serious interest in spiritual matters than the majority of other people and persons have out of ignorance, taken advantage of this earnestness, and incited them beyond their strength"

"It is often asserted that the gulf between the .... and the genius is not great."

"Probably the recent immigrants have been of such high nervous temperament that their fine fibers have been unable to properly endure the strain of the new conditions in America, and in their desire to become wealthy and wise ..... have had to pay the price "

"Besides, the native-born population as a whole, has achieved material independence to a greater degree, and as a consequence, are in better position than immigrants to take care of their .... relatives, especially the less dangerous ones."

I've deleted some of the words he wrote, because
they are so bad .... anyway, point is Searcher, up here, not only do we have the problem of being vicious and criminally minded because we are canadian, but the temperments of many of us get quickly stressed due to our inherited scandianvian fibers .....

(hi Ladybug, just seen your posting, i didn't mean to not say hello...)

[ February 18, 2006, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Oh, good grief, Norma,

How skewed IS this world? And by the way, just WHO were the Vikings? Certainly a people with temperments too quickly stressed? Or incited beyond their strength? Tell THAT to my Irish ancestors!!!! Poor Scandi's with their weak fibers...

Well, here I go again...Hi Ladybug and Searcher, I really like both of you and Norma and Chatty and ALL...you are all such wonderful ladies!! Your opinions and replies, the research you do and so many things give me just a little insight into who and why and where you are and where you are coming from.

Searcher,I'm the oldest of 5 children and my parents encouraged dinner table discussions and we were all allowed to voice our opinions and it just got livelier and livelier. We all enjoyed it immensely and we all miss those times.

From what I've been able to glean from what little study I've done. The conflict between the Israelis and the Arab nations stems from the promise to Abraham and Sarah of a son and that Abraham would be the father of many nations. Then they got beyond child bearing years and Sarah gave Abraham her handmaiden, Tamar, who conceived and gave birth to Ishmael. Ismael was Abraham's firstborn but not the promised son. Then Sarah got pregnant with Isaac, the promised son, jealousy erupted between the two and Abraham eventually had to send Tamar and Ishmael out into the desert to live. There has been enmity between the two nations ever since. Also, we as Chrsitians are admonished that we will be judged as a nation by how we deal with Israel. We should always give preferential treatment to Israel and handle them prayerfully as they are God's chosen people and we are his adopted children. He doesn't love us any less. As a matter of fact, we are so very precious in His sight because when his own chosen people rejected His Son, we welcomed him with open arms and spread the gospel. His chosen ones had him killed, which unknown to them, they played right into God's plan to fulfill redemption for all and to open up a new period of grace and forgiveness.

In the final days of time, Russia, China, Korea, Turkey, Iran, Iraq and other middle eastern nations will ban together and fight against Israel in the last and final battle of mankind. Watch the alliances nations are making with eachother. See what nations help each other out and sell nuclear weapons to each other.

For sure though, all eyes are on the prize, which is Israel because they have natural resources galore and because of the Temple Mount which is the holiest of holy places in the world and the most highly disputed.

Hi ladies, please, no need to apologize for your posts. This is what BWS is about, helping us educate each other.

My thanks go to all of you who have educated me.

Now Norma, I wonder what the Italians did with their family members who had mental health issues?

the security for 6 major US sea ports is to be put into the hands of foreign islamic government's
security company ?????????

8 seaports according to some reports, the other 2 being in texas, where apparently 40% of US military supplies are shipped from ??????????

what the heck is going on ??????

[ February 21, 2006, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Dotsie ]

Just checked this news on line Norma and 92% of Americans voted (on AOL's poll) against this lunacy. Maybe our government has totally lost its mind on this one folks.

Norma, also on further checking New York governor Pataki appears to be very concerned and is exploring all legal avenues to block this action as are a few other governors of affected sea ports. Some of them said they were never even notified in advance of this action.

Democratic senators Robert Menendez and Hillary Rodham Clinton will introduce legislation prohibiting the sale of port operations to foreign governments.

from what i read through news reports many democrats and republicans are trying to block this, but C.Rice seems to think it will be secure and is acceptable ......

all the best to your people eh....

[ February 21, 2006, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Number5, I agree with you about how the world treats Israel - God said to Abraham "I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those that curse you". Gen. 12:3
Are you on the mailing list for the Jerusalem Prayer Team?

Leaving the security of our ports in the hands of the UAE seems like insanity (and suicide) to me.

My understanding is that the port security has always been handled by foreign companies. It is very likely this would not be a security risk, as this transaction has been studied by some committee. However, it still makes me a little queasy.

Daisygirl

from what i can gather Daisy, the security was handled before by a foreign company, which was british owned, but that company was sold last week to this 'dubai' company which is owned by the government of the United Arab Emirates .....
i sure dont blame you for being 'queasey' ....

IMO a company from Great Britain couldn't be a whole lot safer than the UAE. In fact, we have enemies in every country in the world. I bet there isn't a company in the U.S. that could handle such a huge job, except maybe Haliburton.......they can do anything.

I think our government should and probably will eventually take over the security of our ports, but at this point, we are not legislatively authorized nor do we have the infrastructure to do the job. Haliburton might have the infrastructure, but without legislative authorization for the funds, contracting with them is not going to happen.

This may be just the impetus necessary to make some of the needed changes. But until we are equipped and ready, we need to act as if we are delighted by this development. What else can we do?

smile

Doesn't our Constitution say something about providing for the common defense and insuring domestic tranquility? I would say this falls under that category, in this day and age.

Since interpreting the constitution is up to the courts and they can only act to interpret the constiutionality of law, it still goes back to the legislature to pass a law. If NY or some other port state does outlaw it the case may wind up in the court.

Of course, as we all know, the court is prone to make any number of idiotic decisions. And getting them involved might be even more dangerous than having a sworn enemy running the ports.

I think we have to lay low til we can do something, but I hope we hurry up.

I just heard on the news that we asked the English company to stop the sale, but they refused. Some friends those Brits.

smile

Well, thank God, everything is ultimately in His hands...but He expects us to be vigilant and to use the brains He gave us. This is why we have to always pray for our leaders and anyone else in power in the US.

I know very little about these things, so am following this discussion with a great deal of interest. From what I understand, a number of Arab control companies have their headquaters in Britain. Seems like you can't tell the players without a scorcard these days.

I heard on the radio that the UAE will not run the ports, but will own the leases. This is very confusing! The same people, all American longshoremen, will continue to run it and have control.

We may not have any choice for the time being, because there are very few companies that can do the job. The government should take it over, but unfortunately it would all end up in miles of red tape.

Daisygirl

I'm so glad this topic is up. I didn't find out till last night that this was happening. I am very upset by it. I can't imagine who in their right mind thinks it's OK to turn over ANY part of America to another country!

Ask anyone who has gone from a free nation to control--like communism and they will tell you that nothing happened overnight. Slowly little by little the people lost their freedoms and rights. Each piece in itself not enough to warrant alarm--no one saw the 'big' picture until it was too late.

Kinda like putting a frog in hot water--he will jump right out, but put him in cold water and turn up the heat slowly and he will cook to death, completely oblivious to the danger.

I think this is stupid, ridiculous and reckless. And I have been a support of Bush all along....