It's the time of year that get many people down especially those with depression.

If you know of anyone that suffers from depression please remember to call them or stop over to see them with a plate of cookies or whatever you can offer.

Sometimes a kind voice and just the idea that someone is thinking of them can work wonders.

If you know they'll be alone on Christmas Eve or Christmas day invite them over. It's hard to be all alone so don't forget these special folks who need our love.

Ladybug, what a great reminder. I have bipolar, and depression is something I struggle against a lot.

We don't want to get caught up in a viscious circle of "nobody wants to be around me because I'm depressed and I'm depressed because no one wants to be around me."

Try to be gentle with those who are depressed; don't force them against their will, don't berate them. They'll respond much better with thoughtful nudges.

Vicki, I told this person ahead of time that I want him at our Christmas table. I'll be calling him again soon to remind him. I was thinking of this person when I wrote this and of course anyone who suffers from depression. I can't believe that anyone would berate a person who suffers from depression. Do you find this happening a lot?

I think depression is much more common than we realize. This is a hard time for anyone to be alone especially someone with depression.

[ December 14, 2005, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

Great topic. Thanks for the reminder.

Vicki, your comment reminded me of something a depressed woman friend once said, "I don't want to be around happy people." SHe was so sad that she couldn't bring herself to be around those who could cheer her up. That's when it may be time to see someone professionally. DOn't you think?

When I was severely depressed, I didn't want to be around ANY people. That was when I knew I needed professional help. You can't force someone who's depressed to snap out of it just because everyone else is celebrating. I only wish that was always the case.

Depression is not something you just "get over". I've seen people who say, "Oh, I was depressed, but then I just told myself to snap out of it." That person wasn't depressed. They were a little sad for awhile. Depression is a serious illness that takes a hold of a person and turns their life upside down.

I've seen people who used to tell me, "just get over it, all it takes is a little willpower."

Those kind of people who berate you, aren't doing you any favors by trying to "force" you to lose your depression. Sometimes people don't even notice that they're depressed for a long time.

It takes a while to discover that you're depressed. But, eventually the realization comes that "hey, it's been a long time since I've smiled, or had a happy thought."

Sometimes, you can't tell a person is depressed because they hide it. I used to hide my depression because I thought people wouldn't want to be around me if they knew I was depressed. I faked having fun. I went out, I had a social life, and I pretended to enjoy myself. But, the depression was still there.

People who are depressed need to seek professional help. It's a serious illness that requires a sensitive, caring medical provider who can help the person understand that it's not their fault they're depressed and there are therapies to help overcome it.

Sometimes people are misdiagnosed as depressed when they are simply lonely. And they can be lonely in a crowd. Maybe it's the lonely people who can be helped by being included in our celebrations.

Just a thought.

This is a joyous time and also a hard time for so many people.

smile

Sometimes people are misdiagnosed as depressed when they are simply lonely. And they can be lonely in a crowd. Maybe it's the lonely people who can be helped by being included in our celebrations.

Just a thought.

This is a joyous time and also a hard time for so many people.

smile

Smile, you make a good point.

Lonely people need others to help them celebrate Christmas too.

This man I am talking about takes medication and has been depressed for many years. He's divorced, his parents are gone and his older brother passed away several years ago. His only remaining family are two nephews who refuse to have anything to do with him. He's also retired on disability from open heart surgery.

This man sounds like he has reasons to be depressed. If he's taking his medication, at least he's doing something to help himself. It's wonderful of you to be there for him at this time of year.

Sometimes the medication you take for heart disease, can cause depression.
I think it so sad, he spends Christmas alone.
That would be depressive all in it's self.

How kind of you to invite him to your home. I hope he comes.

Speaking only for myself, and as a newcomer who isn't intending to offend.

But.

I have very dear neighbors who consider it their, ummm, duty, to include me in holiday celebrations. After all, I live alone with just my dog for companionship, etc.

I wish they'd turn their attention elsewhere.

Being invited into someone else's family holiday, just because I live next door and *they* are uncomfortable with my solitary life style, is a fate worse than death. I'd rather be left alone. I even tell my long-distance family members to call me the day before or the day after a holiday. Never on the holiday.

I can be sociable when I need to be, i.e., I fake it. But it's exhausting. However it seems to others, it is easier for me to deal with the holiday season by staying as detached from it as possible.

MossPatch, I can relate in a way, though it may not seem so. In all my 50 years, I've only ever missed one Christmas with my family. It was in 1983, I was in my late 20's, in the grip of a terrible depression and unable to afford to get back home for Christmas that year. I was scared to be alone, so quickly accepted an invitation to spend Christmas with a family I knew. Well, it was a disaster. I started crying at midnight Mass on the 24th and never stopped crying until I got home on the 26th. Nothing they did could ease my anguish, and everytime I managed to stop, one of my family members would phone me and I'd start all over again. It was such a miserable day for me, and I know I ended up ruining their Christmas as well as my own.

So I vowed two things that year...that as long as my Mom and Dad were alive, by hook or by crook I would always make it home for Christmas (which I did), and if it wasn't possible for me to get home, I would spend it alone...it would be miserable, but at least I'd be miserable alone and not making other people suffer too!!!

Now after years of hosting all the Christmas dinners and celebrations, I would actually enjoy a quiet, solitary Christmas for a change, but it won't be this year.

I know it's not quite the same circumstances as you, but I do understand what you say about having to be involved in someone else's family holiday being a fate worse than death. Some people need and crave to be included, others like you, and me to some extent, find it excruciating to be in that kind of situation. I do crave Christmas with my own family, but if that were not possible, I'd rather be alone (or help in a homeless shelter) than inject myself into someone else's family traditions.

If he declines my invitation I will not press him as to why he can't. Thanks for bringing up a good point MossPatch and one that probably never occurs to some of us.

I for one wish that when I politely decline an invitation I would not be given the third degree as to why I am not accepting their hospitality. When pressed further, people then try to accomodate my circumstances for not going. This of course leads to some fibbing on my part.

I've never really learned how to say no because of well-meaning folks who won't simply accept my answer the first time they ask. What I have learned is polite fibbing which I'd rather not have to resort to.

This man is more than welcome in my home but not at the expense of what he deems best for himself.

Ladybug, I haven't been following this entire thread too closely, but I have to add to my post above that I will ALWAYS be grateful for being asked anywhere, even if I decline. For me, just being asked was always a gift in itself. So even if this gentleman declines for his own reasons, you will not have gone wrong asking him. Even in his depression, he will hopefully be consoled by your thoughtfulness.

My main reasons for declining anything when I've been depressed is that I don't want to inflict my darkness on anyone else...it's part of the mangled thinking and self-ostracization that are so characteristic of depression.

I will ask him and I do thank you for telling me this.

Even if I see a person is down I still like to reach out to them. I think this is why I have quite a few friends like this. Their sadness never brings me down. Sometimes I think a person with depression just needs reinforcement that they do have wonderful qualities. I know it isn't going to cure their depression. I know how good it makes a person feel when they are told how much I appreciate them. I think they need to hear this.

You're right, Ladybug, those things may not cure their depression, but they will be like candles that help them find their way out, or even nudges that help them WANT to find their way out. We never know how far our little ripples of light and kindness go...we may not see the healing happening right away, but those kindnesses can make enough of a dent in the darkness to help the person stuck there see possibilities that they hadn't seen before.

I haven't read this whole thread but I want to add something sparked by a news story. A ph.d was interviewed about what people can do if/when they are depressed over the holidays. the Ph.D said, "The depressed individual should spend time with family. There is nothing like family to support and nurture." The Ph.D said this in the most blissful, quiet way, with a trickling fountain in the background. Like, "Calgon, take me away." I couldn't believe my ears. What if the listener, a depressed person, is from a dysfuncitonal family? The depressed person then feels worse, thinking, "What's wrong with ME that I can't turn to my family for nurturance?" Call me cynical, but I live in the real world, and in the real world, not every family is full of support and nurturance! The Ph.D could be sending some defenseless support-less depressed individual off the deep end because he/she has no family to turn to because the family is the source of the dysfunction! What planet is this Ph.D from? What a poor message. If I had my wits about me instead of being in shock I would have called the station with a rebuttal.

Moss, I am butting in, since I have had no prior conversation with you. A fate worse than death? Really? You feel that strongly about it? I know that many times I thought death would be better than being alone. (I don't feel lonely or alone anymore.) I know that I've felt like an imposition and a burden. But how is someone who is extending an invitation to know what is okay to do? I guess if I had a neighbor who I chatted with all year long, and I knew that neighbor had no family, I would probably ask that person if he/she wanted to come over on Christmas day for a while.

[ December 15, 2005, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Lynnie ]

The last thing a sad or depressed person needs is to spend time with family members who can't or won't support them. I found this out last year when Chuck was so sick at Christmas, and nobody in his family was there for either of us. I actually had to tell the nurses to not connect his mother's calls because her hysterical crying upset him so much.

Usually, we put up with them because Chuck is more forgiving than I am. But I know I could never depend on them in a crisis, and I don't plan to.

I would not hesitate to invite someone who was alone to spend the holiday with me. Nor would I be offended if they choose not to. People who extend a hand in friendship and caring are a blessing.

I would question that doctor's advice too.

All of you are very right. Sometimes a dysfunctional family is not what a depressed person needs at holiday time, (or any other time for that matter).

If they're like my mom they throw up things that happened ten or more years ago and pile on guilt. Sometimes just when a person has moved past a bad time in their life someone else brings it up again and those bad feelings rear their ugly heads. Some people just don't know when to quit.

When you're depressed you've got to learn to say "no" to toxic people. Know your own limitations of being around these people. They can drag you down just when you've started to make progress. Sometimes it makes you think they resent the progress and want to sabotage it.

That's so true, Ladybug. Some people don't want us to change or grow, they like to play the "change back" card. I read a book not too long ago called The Dance of Anger. It was recommended by a psychologist. I got a lot out of it. It's all about behavioral patterns and when people are comfortable with those patterns and you try to change it, they do or say something to try and get you to change back.

All families are dysfunctional. Familes are the ones who love us despite our numerous flaws and malfunctions.

In my family we call wherever we gather "dysfunction Junction" and the numerous psycho-social problems become fodder for family jokes. Everyone brags about their neuroses and most agree that a trip to the psyche unit would be a nice retreat.

Anyone who shows up is welcome and they'll probably be teased. Anyone who choses to remain alone misses a lot of fun.

We joke about everything and we love each other despite it all. We're a family!

smile

[ December 17, 2005, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Since my family of origin was dysfunctional, with my father being an alcoholic, our family life was a big secret we kept from the "outsiders" and we thought everyone else was normal, while we were all different. I didn't learn until I was an adult and in sales, where I was in contact with many people, that there is dysfunction in every family. I became much more honest about my life, which totally mortified my mother...........

Daisygirl

I'm sitting here, with a few moments before I run off to church. I haven't been to church in over a year - but desperately need some inner peace today.

My memories of the holidays as a girl still make me cringe. Alcohol was always a problem (one year an uncle crawled home from the corner bar on hands and knees - cops picked him up and brought him home...) Another year, my sweet mother nearly electrocuted herself (after a few too many eggnogs) when she picked up the electric hand mixer and turned on the water faucet at the same time.....

Then I grew up and had a family of my own. I had my own problems with the booze until I was in my mid 30's and it saddens me to remember how I ruined my husbands holidays until I got my act together.

We've lost so many family members - seems like each Christmas we have more tears to bare. My MIL is getting senile - oh, and did I mention she's a flaming homaphobe? I have a gay son and she has done some terrible things at family gatherings that are unforgiveable. The latest sorrow is my youngest son has been diagnosed bipolar (thankfully he's doing great on medication - 2 weeks tomorrow.) He has taken on a girlfriend that is very young with a 3 year old daughter. He talks of marrying her - but is so deeply in the hole from his manic episodes ($$$$) that it will be years before he should take on the responsiblity of a family.

So - deppression is my constant friend it seems. I attend a Unity church (when I go....) and they have a lovely service before the new year entitled the "Burning Bowl." You write a personal letter to yourself about what you hope to achieve in the next year - both personally and spiritually. The minister holds on to them and mails them back at ramdom times of the year. Then you write another letter to yourself about the past year's self-defeating actions, resentments, etc. Those letters are burned in one large pot. A lot of symbolism - it's really powerful.

But, I'm off to church now - I'll be praying for us all. Christmas is only a day - in the big scheme of things. We can all get through it - one day at a time.

Thank you for your prayers browser57. I bet church was an exhilirating experience today. The burning bowl sounds like something we all could do.
God Bless
chick

Smile your family sounds like a hoot and probably a lot of fun. Oh to be a fly on the wall!

Browser57 the idea on of the bowl is so neat, I'm going to mention it to our Minister.

The man I invited to Christmas dinner called me back today and said he would love to spend it with me and my family. Both of our children think he's funny and really like him. My husband enjoys his company too.

He was and still is my older brother's best friend from kindergarten. He practically grew up in our home. His family is gone except for two nephews who will have nothing to do with him.

His childhood was a bit hard and wrought with painful experiences. His father was an alcoholic who left him, a brother and sister as well as his mother. His sister died when she was a small child. I didn't even know that until he brought it up on Thanksgiving.

He knows he's wanted here, and he really is too.

Bless your loving, sharing, caring heart. He is lucky to have someone that really cares about him and actively includes him in their life and celebrations. I mean that sincerely...

Chatty, prior to Thanksgiving I hadn't seen or heard from him since I was about 19 or 20. With my parents and older brother in Florida having him here will be like having a family member present.

I do have a younger brother who is married with two grown daughters and a grandson. He lives on the east side. His wife who is also Italian like us is very clannish with her parents, sisters and their families. I hardly ever see him. He's always "busy." Ho-hum, okay, I gotcha.

Smile, I was reading a paper that describes a funcitonal family versus a dysfuncitonal one. I think I'll get a copy and post it here. Anyway, one of the differences is the secrets held in the dysfunctional family. The fact that your family is open and accepting of each others' faults and foibles is a healthy attitude. The truly dysfunctional family lives in denial and oppression, is manipulative, pits people against each other, and sends the scapegoat to the psych ward! So I applaud your multi case neurosis and your willing humor. Personally, I prefer a spa experience for a retreat. Massage anyone?

Daisy, I'm sorry to hear that your father was an alcoholic. The secret alcoholic really could make a family feel abnormal and different.

Browser, I'm sorry to hear of your troubles with alcohol and your family. Your MIL sounds malicious. I go to Unity. I like the burning bowl ceremony.

smile, your family sounds fun. Keep making memories this season.

bluebird, I've never heard the term "change back." I have to remember that. I find it pitiful that people don't appreciate personal growth. It's probably due to jealousy.

browser, my heart lifted when you said you were going to church. I pray it was a great experience that may get you there more often. The burning bowl is something all of us could use. Love the symbolism.

browser, glad to hear your son's medication is working. I'm praying the doctor's are getting it right this time. Sometimes the right combination of drugs can make all the difference in the world. Let's pray he continues to take them and realizes they help him.

For those of you who have experienced rejection or criticism when you've changed for the good (which dysfunctional, especially alcoholic/addicted family members detest...hate being left behind!), I'd like to share the yardstick I use in my practice (as a psychologist with a focus on midlife issues for women).

When a woman's family starts complaining about the changes she's made, that's the beginning. But when the angry husband or mother tries to contact me directly to ask what the hell I'm telling their wife or daughter...then I know that woman is making tremendous changes for the good. And, not to worry...because of confidentiality, I never talk to that other family member...just listen to their angry messages with a smile on my lips. I tell women to take the criticism as a badge of honor.

For more on depression visit Dotsie's sister site (NABBW) and see my first column as the newly appointed Mental Health Advisor. I'll look forward to sharing more in these forums and there.

And check out my Doctor Flamingo site just for a smile for the holidays.

Great topic here.

Many of you, who know me by now, know that I am an advocate for the childless, not by choice.(CNBC)

This time of year is the worse time for many of us who are CNBC. (Second place is Mother's Day, but they both run neck 'n neck)

I am co-founder of a board for those who cannot have children. This time of year, especially, we receive a large number of new members seeking understanding and somewhere, ANYWHERE to turn for some kind of hope and help. And many come with suicidal thoughts.

These "holidays" that are so child oriented make us all want to recoil and hibernate until it's "all over". Mall shopping is something that I have not done in years. Receiving those Christmas cards complete with photos of "how the kids have grown" has become a literal chore to get thru.

Please, I am not trying to be ugly. My goal/calling is to educate others about how we really feel. Hollywood has often depicted us as the "woman who steals babies from hospitals". I can say that the urge to give birth to our "own" is very strong, but I have not known any CNBC'er who has done this!

Please, as I'd mentioned not long ago in another post, remember those who are childless. Unfortunately the depression can start before Thanksgiving and continue thru Christmas week.

Also, if you know of someone who you think may need to be directed to our site, it is
Childless Not By Choice
Where they ARE understood and not alone!

[ December 20, 2005, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Di ]

Di, I'm so glad you brought this up because it has never occurred to me that childless women feel this way about Christmas. I can understand the feelings on Mother's Day but never gave it a thought that Christmas is also a tough one. Thanks for doing this!

By the way, my own friend is childless and I have always avoided incessant chatter about my kids. I always focused on the stuff we enjoyed and still do before I had kids. I realized how people can bore you or try to hurt you with talk about what "Johnnie is doing and what Mary did for me" and blah, blah, blah. I knew my own friend wouldn't appreciate it so I just left it up to her to ask about my kids if she wanted to.

LB.....

that is PERFECT! We CNBC'ers often feel left out because we cannot identify with motherhood. Granted, since we are all mature around here, the younger women have tendancies to be non-stop about childbirth, child-rearing etc. We often lose friends over "their kids". No ones fault, except the fact that the one who has had kids can be a bit more compassionate in their conversation styles.

You are a darling to be so thoughtful of your friend's childlessness. I do the same. If I want to know about the kids, I ask. However, I have had friends who constantly talk about their grandkids which really makes me sad. This time of life hurts even more. Everyone has them but me, it seems. I KNOW they are blessings, but I was not, and never will be, blessed with them. A sad time of a childless-boomer's life indeed.

I want to thank all of you, especially Di, for opening MY eyes to this. I can honestly say in my own self involvement, I suppose, I never even considered this until you started posting about it. I do have a friend who's son is gay and she's made the statement that she'll never see grandchildren, so I'm very careful not to bring up things that may make her think about it, or sad...but other than this, I've never given to much thought to my other friends who do not have children. I so appreciate this. I mean it. I cherish my friends and want to enhance their lives, not make them feel unloved, unworthy, or any other kind of emotion that MIGHT possibly come up in this situation.

I think what you're doing is fantastic.

JJ

It's the ol' "unless you walk in someone's moccasins" thing.........

Thanks again, Ladies. We CNBC'ers hear MANY times to "just get over it". But let me ask...HOW is this done? There are reminders EVERYWHERE. We go to our annual OB/GYN physical; pg ladies everywhere. Many of us are trying to find GYN's only since it is just too saddening for us to be in the waiting room. Yes, even for me, a 48 yr old woman who as had a hysterectomy.

THEN, they ask you "how many pg'cy's have you had". Don't they READ charts anymore??

Additonally, every one of us thinks/worries very much about being alone (if our DH's predecease us,which is statistically true), who will take care of us as we age....no longer have many couples as friends since they all are so involved with kids/grandkids. We are pretty much lone men on the island in the world.

Sorry, but now that I have the "eyes" of some very intelligent, caring, mature women, I really feel the leading to speak out on this board. These times of our lives, in addition to the times when all of our friends are having their babies, is critical to our well-being. We have to hang out with those who are like-minded. Hence, the onset of our website.

Think about this: in churches today, there is a ministry for EVERYTHING under the sun (Son,too..hee hee!) except the childless. They even have support for infertility. But that still does not allow for those who will never conceive and/or have ended their infertility journey.

Anyway, I'll stop the rollercoaster for now. Sorry to have out of hand.

Thanks for listening (reading) everyone. I feel I have a good audience here!

Not out of hand at all. This is important. The more informed we are (speaking for myself here) the more in tune to other CNBC'ers we'll be...

You've certainly found your voice and it should not be silenced. Would there be any chance of you starting a ministry group at your church? Or at least bringing this to the preacher/pastor or elder's attention? They may be clueless, like me...maybe?

JJ

Actually, jj, my pastor has been educated by me! In fact, last October our local Christian TV station had both my pastor and I on about this. He'd said to me during the break: "Di, in all my years in the ministry, I never thought about the childless", I said, "Not your fault. Why would you? You have children!" He "got it".

Now, he is very careful when he talks about children during any sermon. And, on Mother's Day, I went to church (don't normally go), he greeted me at the door with a Holy hug and told me how much he appreciated my being there. I only cried once (in memory of my own mother). He had ALL women stand and had a gift for us all.

So, back to Christmas and depression....(sorry to hijack here...)

When people say "Christmas is for kids" that cuts like a knife. And my dear father.....DH and I are the only adults he sends gifts to. All my other siblings only get gifts for their kids. And one of my sisters always sends us something as well.

It IS a lonely time of year for me. I recall Christmas' when I was younger and they were ALL wonderful, full of family, cousins etc. Sad that I wont' get to see my own children join in with cousins, aunts and uncles. No daughter to help do Christmas shopping with; no grandchildren to enjoy. :crying now:

Christmas is also a hard time, of course, for those who have lost children (many of the women in my midlife groups have had adult children die, sometimes by violent means) or whose children or grandchildren are estranged from them (very common). Even those who have had miscarriages or terminations and are mourning those losses find this time of year difficult.

I think it's great, Di, that you are spreading the word and have a supportive website for childless women. I know with a son who is barely speaking and hasn't let me see my grandchildren since last Easter, that it is difficult when people, especially those at church who knew him when he was growing up and remember him fondly, ask about him. I say something neutral but sure don't feel like gushing. But I am eternally grateful that I had my daughter, who is the light of my life and promises to take care of me when I'm old (although she nags about me picking up the house now...so I may be scrubbing floors at 94!).

All the more reason for all of us to enjoy our own company and to keep a network of friends (virtual and real life) to substitute for that "family" we either never had or had but lost.

I love the new concept of intentional communities (google it) where people choose to live together for support and interaction. Sort of a new version of the commune thing.

Let's all hope that those who are estranged from their families wii eventually "see the light."

This simple truth: Life is too short to distance ourselves for petty reasons. We need each other.

I'm not speaking for serious issues you have suffered in the past of course. Some of us maybe can't even remember why we're not speaking or what really caused it. These are the families I'm speaking of. It can be hard to make this first call especially if you were not the one who caused the rift. Someone has to make the first call or it may not happen at all.

Well if Christmas is just for kids then the rest of us with grown children and no grandchildren yet should feel bad. I think Christmas is for everyone, not just kids. After all, our children don't stay small forever.

My daughter works so she didn't help me Christmas shop. I went by myself.

I would've liked you there with me.

Because I had my first child at 34 I really understand how people with kids drone on and on to those without children. My mouth use to hurt from the fake smiles I'd give them listening to the boring talk because it would go on and on.

I know how I felt. Not only that, there was tremendous pressure by family members for me to have a child. We were married 10 years before we had the first one.

People can be pretty thoughtless on this issue but then there are those who are just so kind and understanding. I'm hoping you meet more of the latter and less of the former.

Celebrate Christmas with joy. It's for all of us and not just kids.

Sorry, but I just had a current "event" that I have to let out........

Each year we receive a Christmas letter from a family friend. She's a LOVELY person. She and my sister are best friends....as are their kids.

Each year she sends a beautiful letter. This year it included photos of her 3 beautifully, grown children. I cannot believe they are THAT big.

Anyway, although I love getting the letter, it's just a continual reminder that I'll never have my own kids call to tell me they are coming for Christmas......or our travelling to see our own kids........or my being able to send a bragging/pride letter about how MY children are growing and succeeding in life.

Each year, for us, me in particular since DH has kids, it becomes more and more a lonely time. Yeah,yeah, I know I have DH. But it still does not replace what every woman I know has.......children, legacies and a family tree that will continue to other branches.

My "branch" has stopped with me. Now that is a reality check.

Well sometimes the last is the BEST my friend. God does not make mistakes and only gives us the things we can handle and possibly he has saved you from some terrible tragedy. There may be a child out there that is in need of the love you have to give why not search her/him out? That may be your legacy. A child is a child, is a child and the love given is the same. Think about it Di it just may be the answer....

I've never been a fan of those Christmas letters, either.

I really like what Chatty just said. There's no way I can say it as eloquently as she did, so I won't try. I do have a number of friends who are childless for a veriety of reasons. They are not the ones I talk to about my kids -- unless they ask, which some of them do.

I agree that Christmas is for all of us.

Di, why don't you just tell these friends who keep mentioning children how you feel? You then would not have to feel wounded so much. I realize there are some people you don't know that well who will mention it, but at least the people you know will stop torturing you.

I'm all for being real.

Daisygirl

Thanks, Daisygirl.

But I really dont' want them feeling sorry for me if they are in the midst of joy for their own. Honestly, I really AM excited to hear about growing families........especially those whom I've know for so long.

It's just the reminders of what I don't have but I do that to myself. Nobody's fault but my own, really.

Di, I get those yearly newsletters too.

Some are very sincere and others want to make me gag with the amount of bragging that is done in them. Some of the boasting is so ludicrously overdone! It's amazing to me that after reading it they don't edit it to something that sounds normal.

Di, not everyone has great kids either. Our friends always boasted about theirs and we later found out their son was partying, doing drugs and flunking out of the prestigious college they spent a fortune to send him to. The father finally had to go down to the college and bring his son home.

Then there's the 80 year old woman whose son, daughter-in-law and grandchildren will have nothing to do with. The grandma pays for their expensive private schools here. The grandma is afraid to let the daughter-in-law see her new stove because she remembers how she got scolded for buying a much needed new furnace for her home. Now, when grandma runs out of money do you suppose these louses will take her in? I think not. I realize not all children turn out like this but there are plenty of them to go around.

I send out a Christmas letter with my cards, just to family and close friends. I sent a letter around in the summer years ago informing everyone that I was going to discontinue the Christmas letter as of that year. I got so many letters and phone calls back pleading with me not to discontinue it, that I'm still sending it out...but only to the people who have told me they still want one.

I guess I'm old fashioned. I often include handwritten updates in my cards. And I don't mind getting those letters from family and friends. I do mind them from people I barely know, talking about their families I've never met. I'm not sure why, but that used to bother me. I haven't seen one in several years, so maybe ignoring those people made them go away.

I always write something in each of my cards too letting close friends know what's going on.

I do enjoy Christmas letters but not the kind that are overly boasting such as: We had such a hard time bargaining with the Mexicans on the beach this year in Puerto Vallarta, blah, blah, blah.

I really don't need to know about the vacation details. I think you get the idea of what I mean by overly boastful letters.

Ladybug on this boasting letter junk I am with you completely. Most of this stuff is lies which makes them feel better about their mediocre lives and kids. I do enjoy the truthful ones buy those are few and far between. Who wants to write, "we are pretty happy, not broke but struggling, I'm too fat, the kids smoke pot or are C students or just average nice kids," whatever, LOL.....I send Christmas cards and hand wrte a nice little heartfelt note or if nothing heartfelt, then just a signature...Who really cares about their vacations, new this or that, really!!!!

Chatty, I wish you could've seen the Christmas newsletter I got from my cousin. I cannot believe the bragging and melodramatic content of the entire letter. I would've been ashamed to put such drivel and bull in a letter to anyone! I'm glad to hear you agree. I wasn't making that comment up about her vacation either. It was taken word for word.

Her news about her children would've made you think they were up for the next Pulitzer Prize as well.

[ December 23, 2005, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

suzieq, I'm so sorry for all the death surronding your holidays. What do you do to change the focus? That must be hard. Just going to the cemetery for my mom is tough enough at Christmas. Christmas was her favorite time of the year.

The one good thing about those letters is the fact that the people who do them have a little running history of their family life. I've never done a letter, but I wouldn't mind looking back on them now.

Someone gave me a Christmas album. In it you write the events of the year and include the Christmas card you sent and a family picture. I did it for about three years and now it's in a drawer or closet with all the unfinished baby books. Sigh!

[ December 24, 2005, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Dotsie ]

In reading all of your posts, I notice that Christmas brings up what is missing even more than what we have. That is true for me too.

I have two children (and at least one turned out great...well, the other one did too but he's on and off again in terms of speaking to me and letting me see the grandchildren...that's hard this holiday in particular with my Mom having died this year).

But I have never had a truly loving (or even half-way decent) relationship with a man, including not having a father around growing up. I tend to notice the happy couples out shopping together--even if he's slumped in a chair looking grim.

My daughter, who lives with me at the moment, was out with a friend yesterday so I went out to lunch by myself (every last one of my single friends has suddenly become coupled, each with the love of their life...now how did THAT happen!). I went to the new Bing Crosby restaurant and piano bar (those Christmas melodies do sound better on a REAL piano) and had a yummy meal. But I was definitely the ONLY person in the restaurant there by herself.

At times like that, I try to remember my prayer over twenty years ago that if God could just help me out of an abusive alcoholic marriage, even if I had to be alone the rest of my life, that I would be forever grateful.

Scott Peck in his classic book The Road Less Traveled said that maturity is a matter of learning to accept all of our losses. I am trying, especially this year, to add graciousness to that acceptance...and gratitude for still having my health, my children, and my sense of humor. And knowing that so many other women out there share the same struggles and victories.

Doctor Karen.......you are an inspiring model for all the single ladies in this world.
I've been married 41 years, but still feel alone when it comes to a man.
We pretty much just pass each other around the house.
BUT...my dtrs. and grandson's help me get thru the wonderful Christmas holiday.
God blessed me with a great dtrs. who decided to move back to Olympia and keep our family together.
Couldn't ask for much more!
Wishing you hope, love, and peace of mind.
Lynne

Doc Karen, M.Scott Peck's first book helped to change my attitude about life. I learned from him that life is not meant to be perfect. God never promised happiness to us and since sin exists in the world, we just have to do the best we can with what we have. I appreciate very much the snippets of happiness that come my way.

I'm also feeling a little lonely. But last year I had just ended a relationship with a controlling guy and I was so thrilled to be alone!

I'm sure you don't have to be alone, but choose to because you don't want to settle for Mr. Wrong. I've been single for 15 years and have been in more than a few relationships, but the ones who liked me, I didn't like and the ones I fell for didn't feel the same about me. I don't know why it happens that way. For the past year I've had a few dates, but not with any keepers. Within the past week I've met 2 guys I could be interested in. And one of them even sleeps with his dog and has a diabetic cat he cares for (I look for character traits like that). I don't know if anything will happen with either of these guys, but it's so rare that I meet anyone I would even take notice of.

Daisygirl

Suzie, I was so sad for you while reading the first two paragraphs, but what a blessed ending! I so believe if God's magic and am so grateful He's at work within you and your family. I pray that Christmas spirit hangs around long enough that everyoen realizes the gift is every day. All we need to do is grasp it and hang onto it.

It always amazes me even today with my sons grown how much pleasure they bring into our lives and how they can change a dark mood into a day filled with sunshine with only a smile, a hug or a sweet word....

I wonder if God feels that way about His children. I hope so. Even though there are times when I'm sure I disappoint Him, He forgives and blesses just the same.

smile

Smile, I think He does. And your comment about Him forgiving us and blessing us is exactly what we do with our kids over and over again. That's unconditional love.

For anyone with depression, do you also feel it more on new years eve?

After we stopped going out for new years eve and before we had children, I always felt down on this night. I felt like something was missing or we were missing something by being at home. Truthfully though, I haven't felt that way in more than 20 years now, but just wondered how it affects you.

[ December 30, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

Doesn't bother me a bit to stay home on NY's eve.
Every day is new, having a new year doesn''t phase me much.

I'm having a New Year's Eve party.

Like I posted somewhere else, it's like starting a hospital with all the diets, addictions and ailments that afflict us boomers nowadays. But I'm doing it anyway.

I'm inviting a lot of young people too though in case all us boomers go into diabetic coma, suffer kidney failure, experience alcholic psychosis, and have cardiac arrests.

I figure the young folks can revive us so we can go on wth the party.

smile

I love going out on New Years Eve! This year I'm attending a wedding in Lexington, KY. My friend's daughter is getting married and the wedding is very untraditional and should be very interesting and fun.

I just hope I can stay awake long enough for midnight.

Daisygirl

Daisygirl, now that should be a lot of fun, a wedding on new years eve!

Both of our children are working so our annual dinner date for the four of us is off but it doesn't bother me one bit. It's been so busy around here that it feels good to relax at home.

Enjoy that wedding Daisygirl and have a very happy new year!

[ December 31, 2005, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

Smile your party sounds like the difference between heaven and hell, LOL. Wish I was closer and could drop by. I decided besides the party tonight at the club house, tomorrow I'd whip up my special mexican bean dip, bake some tortilla chips and also a small turkey for sandwiches and just picking on. This way anyone dropping in New Years day has something to nibble on. I also made a rasberry pie, bad girl....LOL

I am grateful the holidays are over and I know 2006 will be good for us. Hopefully for all of you too.

Sherri

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm Chatty, I love anything raspberry.

Got the table all set for tomorrow and went to the Hallmark store today and bought six angel ornaments. They are the ones that can hang on a wreath and are named Gilda, Esmeralda and Cordelia. I'm using one at each place setting at the table. They look really pretty.

I'm just sitting in at home tonight, both kids are working and I'm glad to be finally relaxing without anywhere to go.

Happy new year!

Smile, you are too funny!! Have a fun party.

Chatty, you bake your own tortilla chips? Is it hard to do? I love going to a Mexican restaurant and they serve those warm, fresh chips with salsa. Yum!!

[ December 31, 2005, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Bluebird ]

Well, ladies, this IS my New Year's celebration. One last missive wishing all of you the best in the New Year and then off to slumberland at 10:15 pm. My daughter and I already celebrated (though she has the stamina at 28 to be off to a party with friends tonight) by spending five wonderful days together in Las Vegas (got home safely last night and woke to a 10 hour power outage due to the storms here in Northern CA). While in Vegas, we saw the incredible "KA" show of Cirque du Soleil and then the incomparable Celine Dion. Lots of fancy restaurants (and 3 hours of walking a day to work off the calories) and much window shopping (who in the world can afford that stuff?? or is small enough to get into it???). A nice gentleman who has been an acquaintance and may become more spent an hour chatting with me on the phone this evening--and I'm going to be patient at just let whatever happens happen.

For those of you who managed to stay up and celebrate...more power to you. Be safe, be happy...most of all, just be you!

I wish you all could have been at my first New Years Even party in a few years. It was such great fun.

Now I wish I was near enough to drop by Chatty's for some great New Years grub. YUM.

Oh and don't forget your blackeye peas.

smile

smile, I am so glad to hear you had a great holiday season. I recall last year when you were crutching along making amendments to all your festivities due to your surgery. Onward!

Kay, I wish you could have looked up chatty while you were in Vegas.

So just you and your daughter vacationed together? Sounds blissful. I love one on one time with my kids.

Now about this guy...how did you meet him?

Hi Dotsie, My daughter is my favorite travel companion. She's 28, speaks French fluently (great for our several trips to France) and is the consumate travel planner (I'm the packer!). We see everything.

The guy...have met him several times over the years in connection with my interest in Early Music (Bach, et al)and the harpsichord. Always thought he was cute. Chatted a number of times at events but nothing ever materialized. I assumed he was married. Then was browsing Match.com and there he was. His son had bought him a 3 month membership as a birthday present. So I wrote him and reminded him who I was and now we've talked several times on the phone and found we have a lot more in common than just the music. He builds harpsichords as a hobby and I, of course, play them. Also his real job is as a typesetter, another interest in common since I typeset my own novel. But I think he may be kind of shy, so I'm just letting this go along with the phone chats until he proposes something more. Plus, if I get too "up" for something, then I get very disappointed when it doesn't materialize. Karen

Does sound quite promising however Karen. Better not to get our hopes up and just take things as they come, one event at a time....I find that mindset better all the way around in life in general.

Susiq,
You are the first person I have ever heard who understands that issue and how destructive it can be.

My daughter's mother in law has done that to her children and now she is doing it to our grandchildren. It makes me crazy, but it is impossible to talk to her about it.

She insists those 'pie in the sky' expectations are 'possible' and certainly anything is possible, but stardom is the result of years of effort and a lot of luck. I think it is cruel to plant those expectations in a child. And it sets them up for failure from the first.

I generally try not attempt to change people, but it breaks my heart to see how this woman has damaged her children and is now doing the same thing to our grandchildren. Otherwise, she is a nice person. I just wish I could convince her to stop destroying her children and our grandchildren?

Do you or anyone else have any ideas how I might talk to this woman about this? I have tried being direct, but she just implies that I am a negative person and don't believe in our grandchildren's potential. I was beginning to believe her.

smile

[ January 03, 2006, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Suzie,
Maybe that's it. The woman I spoke of seems disappointed in the achievements in her own life. Maybe her parents did that over expectations thing to her. I wonder.

Either way, I feel I should try to stop what seems destrucive to our grandchildren, but I simply cannot think of a way. My daughter sees the problem, but is helpless also. Sometimes my son in law tries so bring the kids back to reality and winds up talking them out of even trying.
I've tried to use the approach of success being in the trying, but when someone is out there setting them up with almost impossible aspirations, it's hard.

I just don't know how to handle this.
smile