If you thought someone was giving some substance to an elderly person, something beyond their prescribed meds, but couldn't prove it:
1. What would you do?
2. Would you hire an independent nurse to take a blood sample for testing, if you found the rights?
3. Do you think legal, or some other, representation would be in order?
4. Do you know of steps that would need to be taken, for instance, if a blood test proved foul play, could/would you have police agents go to the residence with you?
5. Anyone know what steps, if any, should be taken?

This probably sounds serious... IT IS!
If anyone can give me information, I sure would appreciate it.
I'd also appreciate you asking any and all people you know who might have ideas on how to approach this concern, both delicately and thoroughly....
Time is important!

gims

I don't know that you need to get the police involved too soon, because that creates its own problems. But an independent medical person might be a good idea and perhaps a blood test. Call it a "second opinion" which is absolutely acceptable. You might want to hire a nurse or companion you can trust to go and stay with the elderly person. It may not be foul play but may be some simple over the counter med, or the combination of meds. My opinion now is that most of our elderly are being over medicated and we're calling it "dementia" but really it's our f***ed up meical system (pardon my language).

we've been going through something similar with my 91 year old mom, except that a doctor was prescribing meds she didn't need which created a dementia that caused her to be hospitalized 3 times. It all started last summer after my dad died -- mom has macular and I'm pretty sure dad had been watching out for her.

We've detoxed her now (got her off everything, and waited a few weeks) and she's back to her old self (though has short term memory probs). We've hired a nurse to stay with her during the day. At first mom resisted the idea, but now she can't live without her new companion.

My sister spent a lot of time researching drug side effects (mostly on the internet) and found that even over the counter drugs can cause big problems in the elderly. Like Excedrin and Benedryl. My sister found prescriptions for things like Ambien in mom's bathroom, and replaced the drugs with vitamins, because mom is a compliant patient.

She lives in a retirement home that has its own medical staff (doctor and nurses) and we're very concerned about their competence. It seems that their motto is to over-medicate. Whether they're well-meaning or not is up for interpretation.

When mom was released from the hospital in January, some friends became involved, and he's a doctor, so he asked for and received all the release records, and then intervened on our behalf and spoke to the doctor at the retirement community. I believe he posed as our cousin, but I don't think that was necessary. What we found was that the stupid hospital upon her release had prescribed every single medication she'd ever been prescribed going back some years!

We're still trying to impress upon mom not to take anything! yesterday she said to me, "When a doctor prescribes something, I take it." Now we're not sure if the problem is just that the doctor is prescribing it, or if the nurse is one of those angel of mercy types that wants to put her out of her misery. We've told the social worker our concerns. In fact, I called her yesterday. When mom was last in the hospital, she was acting so weird that they gave her Haldol. She was released a couple days later to the retirement community where they gave her a cognition test (which she failed utterably). Duh! She didn't know where she was, and barely even knew _who_ she was. She wasn't wearing her hearing aids and she has macular. So yesterday I called the social worker to say hey, make sure the test is fair this time, okay? Well, since mom is now detoxed, she did fine.

There's a community eating area where my sister took my mom for lunch yesterday. The residents there applauded our family for being the most supportive!

Wow, DJ. Your family is very lucky to have a friend who happens to be a doctor also to request for information and interpret. Pretty scary about the degree of effort for family to advocate and fight on behalf for a family member in a nursing home. I guess that facility is the only one with a slot for your mother?

Keep us posted, gims. I have not much to add..there does need to be evidence collected and how patient responds which can best on the nature of the drugs, only interpreted by health care professional..if you drag in a lawyer, then police into the picture later only.

What I would do? I would be first on the phone to consult my sister who is a doctor and my other sister who is a hospital pharmacist (she does know alot about drug-drug interactions). I would keep diary notes.

gims, I think you need to be careful. Is this person a relative? If you don't have legal standing, I'm not sure you can get tests done for someone else without running some legal risks yourself.

If this person isn't a relative, you might investigate whether it's appropriate to talk to her doctor or someone who might be in charge of patient care in a facility about what you see re 'side effects,' etc.

I'll tell you why I'm urging you to be careful. You're trying to help someone, and good for you. But my husband and I are legal guardians of his mother (as a result, among other things, of interference from some of his relatives). I was once accused by a relative of withholding information that MIL had had a stroke (not true; she was recovering from major surgery). We see ourselves as the good guys and have made it abundantly clear that we will deal with problems and others are *not* to get information because we can't trust them. So that's sort-of the opposite of your case.

You can go talk to a doctor, though, without violating patient rights and confidentiality by saying what you see and asking for advice as a concerned person, as far as I know. I don't really see what you could do by getting the police involved at this point. If there is no proof, you'll likely come off as not-credible. I wish you luck; you are good to be concerned for another.

Ellemm, that seems like wise counsel and another perspective.

Orchid, my parents moved to a very posh retirement community, as distinct from a nursing home. They paid something like $350,000 for a condo, and then pay fees of about 4-5K per month, that includes all maintenance and health care. It has a nursing wing and an Alzheimer's wing if you get sick. There's a dining area with a grand piano and someone playing music while they eat dinner around an indoor fountain. There are frequent cultural trips into the city, and lectures etc., a swimming pool, exercise gym. All in all it's like a resort and being allowed in is much coveted in that area (you have to have interviews and have insiders vouch for you, as in a country club).

And _still_ we have these problems. My brothers believe that this is their way of moving folks along, in order to be able to sell the condo again. I tend to see it more as a philosophy that says believes that all old people become feeble and forgetful and need to be isolated.

THANK YOU ALL! From the thoughts you have provided, I know what I'm going to do.
I won't go into the particulars here, because it's too sensitive to publicize...but, I'll share by way of PM if anyone has more recommendations.

THANK YOU SO MUCH... it had me so upset last night/this morning, I couldn't sleep OR think.

Maybe my lack of sleep is what's making me feel so out of sorts... but, I've come back to ask you all to pray with all your might, because I'm on my way (with an aunt I've recruited) to take some kind of action. It's my mom and I have to do something.
So, PLease, I beg you Please, pray for me and for her. PLEASE....

with luv...
gims

Hope the very best for your mother, gims. Plot your way through and document every step/event.

DJ- Interesting. Last year I knew another woman at work who's Mom also is in a lovely retirement community like your mother's. And she too was marshalling efforts with her siblings to ensure her mother's health care was properly looked after. They also seemed to slide. I did hear how her mom was dehydrated 'cause no one thought to get some liquids for her for several hrs.

Orchid, my parents moved to a very posh retirement community, as distinct from a nursing home. They paid something like $350,000 for a condo, and then pay fees of about 4-5K per month, that includes all maintenance and health care. It has a nursing wing and an Alzheimer's wing if you get sick. There's a dining area with a grand piano and someone playing music while they eat dinner around an indoor fountain. There are frequent cultural trips into the city, and lectures etc., a swimming pool, exercise gym. All in all it's like a resort and being allowed in is much coveted in that area (you have to have interviews and have insiders vouch for you, as in a country club).

And _still_ we have these problems. My brothers believe that this is their way of moving folks along, in order to be able to sell the condo again.

I'm sending this to a freind who has an eldercare business. I'm sure she can help.

gims, I haven't posted, but have been praying for you. I know that you are doing the right thing, for yourself and your mom.

This is the answer from my friend who owns her own eldercare business:

Hmmm….. if the elderly person is not competent/ vulnerable, etc., and they are being given some additional substance, I'd call Adult Protective Services, and get them involved. (My license requires that I report anything like this)

This can take many forms, but it could eventually remove the person from their current environment, place them in a more protective situation, etc. Guardianship can also evolve, and this would entail appointing an attorney for the client, to represent him/her alone. APS can also bring in the police, etc.

Hope that is helpful. Each jurisdiction has an Adult Protective Services Program, under the Department of Social Services in the county.

-----------------

gims,
I just saw this. Play it cool. Don't let the evildoer suspect
you suspect anything. I made that mistake and blew up before I
thought it through. Get evidence. Get witnesses. Have someone
in authority set a trap and video tape whatever is going on.
Proof you need proof. Or else the evildoer will spin everything
around on you.

This is just awful Gims. But Jabber is correct, you need absolute proof as it will come down to her word over yours. Once you have proof go to the authorities but say nothing to the perpetrator or she'll try and cover her tracks.

I'm doing as jabber said, playing it cool, while gathering info. I want to be sure of the facts before I make a move. As for the visit Thursday, I didn't feel it necessary to take immediate... that is after I took a few steps to make my mom feel and look better.
It's not over, not by a long shot. Thanks chatty and jabber for adding your thoughts...

Welcome! Stay cool! Be aware! Stay ahead of the curve, my friend!

gims -- you're on the right path, for sure. Things can only go better for you.

Dotsie -- Your friend's advice does _not_ sound like something we'd do -- calling adult protective services which might eventually get mom removed from her home? She IS competent, which is part of the problem. Except she's old, feeble and can't see very well (or hear for that matter).

Rather, judging from the other stories on here, I think the problem is systemic -- i.e., this is the American way of dealing with the elderly -- and we'd better see that it changes before we're all in that category!!!! Over-medicate, keep them pliable, quiet and hidden. It's a terrible shame. Those institutions need to serve healthy, fresh, nutritious food (which they often don't). And yeah, for that kind of money, someone should be delivering bottles of water daily to everyone, just to make sure they're getting enough.

AND, THIS PI22E2 ME OFF! They are still human beings!

If what C. theorists claim is coming down the pike, we needn't worry, DJ. Ailing elderly, along with less than perfect others, will be the first to be X-terminated. Note: #7 or 8 (of 13) of the following. (Make sure to catch #11, also.)
For those who have not seen this, and choose to watch, please be WARNED - some of the graphics will hurt. Whether it is entirely true, or not, it's a good idea to watch the whole thing... if for nothing else but information. It may make you think twice when making plans for the future.

Gims, I would make an appointment with an internist in another town. Bring the list of medication she takes and not mention any of your suspicions, so you won't influence him. It is very possible that her medication dosage has to be changed every once in a while. Hopefully that is the reason.

I would also speak to other families that have their parents there. Just hear them out and not tell them of your own suspicions.

Make sure the doctor is a gerontologist because medications act differently in the elderly.

EW, good idea...

dots, thanks for the reminder. The neuro-psychiatrist I've been thinking about works mostly with the elderly. But, I will keep in mind that she needs to be seen by a gerontologist, if the N-P isn't the one we take her to.

I visited Mother again today. She's loosing her eyesight so rapidly. She was already a victim of a botched cataract surgery in one eye, but now she is not seeing well with her better eye. Unless she can hear your voice, feel you, or make another non-visual association, you have to tell her who you are. She looked good today, tho, more awake than during the last two visits. I think this is good news.
When I was feeding her some yogurt, she would roll it around in her mouth a few times before swallowing. My sister said she was trying to find if a pill was hidden in it. I blurted out rather loudly, 'Bless her heart,' and 'Good for you, Mother.' Think the message was well taken?

I miss my mom already, and she's not even gone.

gims,
my sister and I are convinced it was the "side" effects of the meds that destroyed our mom's vision.
The message was most likely understood anyway!
dots -- my mom's doc is a respected geriatrician. And yet he prescribes things that a simple google search says shold not be prescribed to the elderly (like Ambien).

gims, interesting that your sister would make that comment. IT proves it's happened in the past and that she's suspicious.

When they are paranoid about taking meds and being poisoned, as my loved one has been, they will actuall pretend to swallow, but keep the pill hidden in the mouth until no one's looking and they put it a kleenex. A pill fell out of my loved ones mothw while talking abbout 15 minutes after he supposedly took it.

I'm glad you're back in your mom's life. There's a reason for it!

DJ, keep doing the online research. It's so helpful. We alerted Mom's doctor of a new cancer drug he'd not yet heard about. Unfortunately, it wasn't perfect for her, but he was glad to learn about it for other patients. I know it's crazy, but some doctors don't have time to read all the journals and sufr the net for the latest so we have to do it for them.

Small point, but have always understand geriatrician is the physician that specializes in medical care of the elderly and diseases/disorders associated with aging.

Gerontology can include the above but more the sociological study of aging. How society treats the elderly, the support systems, law, relationships with elderly, etc.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/mplusdictionary.html

Gerontology:
the comprehensive study of aging and the problems of the aged

Geriatrician:
One who specializes in geriatrics.:
1 ge•ri•at•rics plural but singular in construction : a branch of medicine that deals with the problems and diseases of old age and aging people

orchid, thanks for the clarification.

DJ, my goal is to get her in a place to where she can be supervised while being weaned. The last med prescribed is a doozy, from what I understand. It literally makes using her arms and legs pret' near impossible.
Another sister and I are figuring out a way to make this workable. She and I are the only two in-state, who feel the need to protect her. It may mean me going to live at 'the big house'... I'm the only one in-state that has a stable marriage, and it may come down to me leaving my home (albeit temporary). Isn't that ironic? Thanks for your encouraging words. I hope what proved true for your mom will be the same for ours.

You apparently read into the comment exactly what I did.
Me, too. Thanks!


Gerontology vs. Geriatrics - I stand corrected, too, much aware of the difference, but not thinking clearly ---- think I'm needing a geriatrician?

gims, I think of you often as we tend to our fathers. So many boomers are jumping thorugh hoops for their parents. I always heard that when you were pretty much finished taking care of your kids, you end up caring for your parents. I heard it, but didn't absorb it. Now I'm absorbing and living it.

Term is geriatrician...however they are specialists not found in abundance...yet.

gims -- what drug is that? Pretty scary. I keep saying to my sibs, don't wish for her what you wouldn't want for yourself. If I were 91 years old, I'd want to tell everyone to just let me live my life. If I managed to live that long, why would I want to care about my "safety" if it meant I had no freedom to choose?

my sister found this info on Wikipedia. My mom had many of these symptoms. We're trying to keep her away from Tylenol now!

side Effects from (Acetominophen)
Increased Blood Pressure
Depression
Confusion
Severe Itching And Rash
Extreme Dizziness With Hypertension (See 1 Above)
Muscle Pains
Liver Damage/Failure
Easy To Overdose: It Only Takes A Few Days Of Maximum Dosage To Achieve Liver Failure, especially with other OTC drugs containing acetominophen or ibuprofen
Stupor, Coma
Death.

Side Effects from (Acetominophen + Aspirin + Caffeine)

See 1 To 10 Above
Stomach Ache, Diarrhea, Vomiting
Shakiness, Jitters
Insomnia
Rebound Headaches (as the drug wears off)
Tinnitus, Ringing Of The Ears, Hearing Loss
Blurred Vision
Anxiety, Paranoia, Nervousness
Unusual Bleeding, Bruising;
Swelling, Difficulty Breathing, Closing of Throat, Etc.
Sensitivity To Sunlight


Side Effects from (Ibuprofen) Include:
Gastrointestinal Bleeding
Seizures
Vision Loss And Blurred Vision
Liver Failure
Chest Pain
Difficulty Breathing
Fast Heartbeat
Fever, Chills, Muscle Aches And Pains
Skin Rash, Redness, Blistering, Peeling or Itching
Stomach Pain, Cramps
Swelling Of Eyelids, Throat, Lips, Feet
Unusual Bleeding, Bruising
Unusual Tiredness, Weakness
Weight Change
Seizures


Side Effects from aspirin (Salicylic Acid):

In Very High Doses, Ringing Of The Ears, Stomach Bleeding.

DJ, how is your mom doing these days?

oh my gosh -- she's back to her normal self! Her memory isn't so great, but who's is any more? Seriously, we thought she had dimentia there for a while, and got her completely off meds, including Tylenol etc. Everything except vitamins.

My sister made an interesting observation. I copied her email here. Ross might be interested in this theory:

"I have a new theory of Mom's hospitalizations.They seem to coincide with her retinal exams. She had at least 4 trips to the ER last year, and she gets 4 eye exams a year. For the last 2 hospitalizations, she had an eye exam 2 days prior to going to the ER. For these exams she's injected with a dye into her arm. It's called Fluorescite. I was with her last time but I didn't catch what was going on until it was too late to stop it. The eye doctors don't know not to inject into her right arm, her breast cancer side, so that's a problem.The Fluroescite is shellfish based and Mom's allergic to shellfish. So am I. I've had it for an MRI and had a really bad reaction. But the worst part is they shine lights into her eyes to photograph her retina. At this point I think she becomes hypnotized, loses her memory, etc.

"Here are the contraindications of the Fluorescite from drugs.com: Nausea, vomiting, gastrointestinal distress, headache, syncope, hypotension, and symptoms and signs of hypersensitivity have occurred. Cardiac arrest, basilar artery ischemia, severe shock, convulsions, thrombophlebitis at the injection site, and rare cases of death have been reported. Extravasation of the solution at the injection site causes intense pain at the site and a dull aching pain in the injected arm

"The last eye doctor was a total total moron, and had a really hard time with Mom. When he called me into the exam room to help, he was having trouble with his computer, he was sweating, and he seemed more confused than Mom. Throughout her hospitalization I was kinda sorta thinking these bright lights shining into her eyes may have caused some sort of stupor but it didn't really kick in until I saw that on December 2 she had an eye exam and on December 4 she was hospitalized."

DJ, I'm a big advocate of investigating medical decisions, especially in cases where high medical costs are involved. My own research has literally saved me from a total operation to an artificial knee replacement.

That’s wonderful news that your Mom is back to her normal self.

Wow, DJ- you are truly your Mom's advocate and thank goodness for your compassion.
I had my husband near my side when they wanted to put me in a nursing home and he stopped the process and got me into a rehab facility that while helping me walk again- was the scariest nursing care I have ever encountered. Thank God,he was there for me.
Tip for You- Constantly get copies of her medical records-it is your right and it will keep them on the ball since they know you will be overseeing what they are doing.
Warm Wishes to you and your mom,
Fern Alix LaRocca CFP
www.wholeheartedway.com

Yes -- we have a family friend who's an osteopath and we gave him copies of all her medical records. He's been a great assist. And my sister is absolutely brilliant. Here's the irony of it all -- when mom was a kid, her parents were Christian Scientists. I pointed out to her that she grew up never taking any medication so why was she taking everything that doctor dreamed up. She actually said she didn't think it'd affect her at all. Another time she said, Maybe I like it. Hmmm. So my sister and I were thinking we might have to go to Al anon meetings for a mom who wouldn't give up Ambien! But yes, thank goodness we detoxed her!

DJ, I printed your post and will share it with Ross. I'll also lwt you know if he has any feedback for you. Glad to hear your Mom is doing better. It reminds me of an aunt. Her children pretty much thought she was on her last legs, but it was all medicine related. They found a doctor who stripped her of all her meds and began adding back what he thought was appropriate. She lives on with a clear mind.