Ladies, I have a dear close person who will be experiencing divorce. (She is contemplating it, anyway).

Knowing what you know now, what would be your best advice to someone who has been married 23 years with two late-teen children. (One out of the house, one at home) She is 54.

Issues regarding emotions, financial, physical etc. She lives in another country so I cannot be there physically.

Thanks for any advice/input you can provide.

The emotions will be rough, no matter what.

First I'd ask her if she tried every avenue to communicate with him. Is he abusive, on drugs, sleeping around? If no, have they tried to get at the root of their anger? In the States, most "marriage counselors" (even the so-called religious ones) seem to advise their clients to get divorced because it's easier for them than trying to help their clients communicate with each other.

If yes to any, then I'd tell her to consult a lawyer. If she's in another country, the laws of course are different than in the States...and all the states are different too. But she shouldn't move out, unless she wants to risk losing everything.

I always think of the children when I hear of divorce. Even though her kids are older, she should still try to be open and honest with them, and not leave them in the dark. They may be good support for her during this time.

Make sure you stay in touch with her. I'm sure she needs a good friend during this difficult time. As mnay women her can attest, it may be tough now, but the sun will shine again, and soemtimes it shines brighter than ever.

I agree with DJ, she needs to put her emotions aside no matter what and think down the road. She needs to go for the throat money wise as she has the children to care for and will for sometime to come. Never trust the husband who trys to make nice as he is probably only thinking of himself and his wallet. It is possible to remain friends for the kids sake but not necessary. I learned that the hard way. The kids can see their dad and she doesn't have to. Divorce is no picnic and I feel for anyone going through one. Maybe if she is computer savy DI, you can turn her on to this site.

thanks, Gals. It's not been an easy decision for her. I've sent her a link to this thread and she is reading. She may join as she knows I am a member.

I've been divorced before, but it's a whole 'nother ballgame when you have children which I don't. All I know is that it was HARD for me to be totally alone. I'm just meant to be married. I'm not the type to BE alone, but I was much younger then.


Any others out there willing to share?

Having another man waiting in the wings isn't a bad idea either.
One who has some bucks and is lonely, LOL! Kidding but then it is not a bad idea.

hmmmm iv not been divorced but been at court with or over children not mine biologicalie but one i wanted contact to as id been a parent from before birth.

that partner was always very faire, logical and i had no reason to question them when we were privatlie splitting up equitie from house furniture ext.

it wase't untill te court days becouse i wanted to see the kid that i found out id been done out of £25,000. lol thats a lot and becouse i din't think theid become that type of sneekie person.

monie and split ups, protect herself and don't let emotion play the onlie part in her thnking thats too hard or too soft.
How unbiased is her lawer?
Is he capable of making a moral balancing act which is faire to both of them.

iv onli found one so far like that, thats why she is mine now lol.

oh kids is a tough one and such a changable thing, as long as he not hurting the kids as in even saying your mums a so in so etc.

its reallie hard as emotions spill over and i have also said done things i should't have done in front of mine but their we go we all humaine but keeping a focused mindset stops it going overboard. just keep trying to get it or make it ok is about all one can do.

Hi Dotsie,

Let me introduce myself. I am Di's dear close person who is contemplating the divorce. I have been reading all the posts and certainly appreciate everyone's comments. I am still in a state of indecision, but wanted to respond to your comment regarding my children. I have to say they are totally supportive of me in wanting to leave him.

I'll briefly explain my circumstances. My husband changed dramatically after the kids were born, moreso after the second one. It's hard to understand but he became both controlling and neglectful at the same time. He is self employed and although I know the pressures that can bring, his work became more important than his family, so I was left to my own devices with raising the children. "Two under two" at the time and I was a stay at home mom. It's hard to describe in detail all the goings on, but it was a combination of financial restrictions(not being able to buy children's necessities without being questioned), criticism when doing housework (never up to his standard) and some belittling in between. The straw that broke the camel's back and the turning point with my feelings was during a time when my in-laws needed help. Mother in law was in hospital for surgery, father in law in nursing home, so I was "toing" and "froing" between the two of them,in addition to children and school responsibilites. He worked from home and didn't lift a finger to help in any way, even though they were HIS parents. So, when he came out with "What do you do all day?", all I could do was go outside and burst into tears. However, for the children's sake, I carried on being the "dutiful wife".

We separated for 6 months in 2007, but it turned out to be a shambles. I didn't go the "legal" route and he still maintained control of the finances, which defeated the purpose really. While he was gone, I was very happy. My confidence soared, resulting in landing a new job.

I decided to take him back and to be honest, he is making every effort to change. Going out of his way to be attentive, helping with dinner, housework, etc. but my feelings remain the same. The love is gone. I've even tried counselling, but to no avail. It was just a battleground!

All I want is to try and get back to my old self and be happy. I have an appointment with a lawyer on Monday and I still don't know if I'm doing the right thing! Any other opinions would be appreciated.

I am new to these forums, so please excuse me if I "talked" too much.

Hi Expat, we are happy to welcome you here.

May I try to answer you by saying, if he really is trying and has seen the error of his ways possibly a LEGAL separation would be good for awhile, each living alone. Then you can date him and see if maybe he is serious and you can get the old spark back.

That said, if not, then move on now while there is still time to make a new life for yourself either alone or with someone. All too often these men do everything they can to alianate us and then whalla, for some unknown reason they decice they want us beck again, really!!! Sometimes its just too little, too late! I wish you the best whatever you do.

Expat,

Welcome to BWS! It is a wonderful place to come, share, and get support. This group has carried me through my divorce and rebuiding my life after the divorce.

Forgive me if anything I say is "out of turn"....I am just going on my interpretaion of what you've said.

My #1 concern is that his "efforts to change", are really an "effort to keep you in his control".

He sounds to me to be subtly abusive and manipulative. (been there, done that, didn't realize it until I was OUT FROM UNDER my ex).

If this is the case (or a possibility)...I would encourage you to get support for yourself through a counselor or a support group (co-dependent group, etc).

Divorce is hard on everyone. If you decide to go that route - I would be happy to share some "I wish I had known" type things with you!

Expat -- Keep coming back and sharing. You can't share too much here - we all have poured out our hearts at one time or another.

Hugs,

Danita

Thank you, ladies, for being honest with Expat. And I especially was hoping you, Danita, would chime in, having known you've recently been thru something similar. This dear one of mine has been the "perfect wife'. Done EVERYTHING for this man....and then some. All the while maintaining some semblance of normalcy for the children.

Danita...what you said here...



I believe, is the "nail on the head"...the fact that he is STILL controlling, but in a NICE way! Hog wash!

Expat,
Welcome. Whatever you decide, I wish you well. I was divorced but forced into it. My son was 13 years old at the time. Nobody
wins when marriage fails, in my opinion. I've been remarried for
a long time. I love my 2nd husband. The only advice I have is, don't do anything too fast. Think things through. Cherish your friendships. Di is level headed; hold tight to her warmth and caring. May the Good Lord watch over you and yours.

Di,
Moral support during times of trouble, is worth more than
gold. If just one person believes in you, you can get
through almost anything. Friendship is a precious commodity! True friends, real friends are a source to be
cherished. And right you are: There is nothing good about
a controlling personality.

Thanks, Jabber. I can only go so far with help since I do not have children. It's hard when you don't walk precisely in ones shoes to give good advice. I've been divorced and not married as long, but w/out kids it's somewhat easier. The emotional ramifications still remain, but the ending of the marriage can be less complicated.

Hello Expat, and glad you are seeking help here, because it's here, where you will find great advice and understanding women.

After reading your post, the one sentence that really stuck out was,..'wanting to be happy again'. I think that is the key. How often do you laugh together? Do you feel comfy with him, or tense and on guard. Can you be yourself, and just feel good about it?

I think very few people manage to be in a perfect marriage. Although I believe there are a few ladies that are blessed with that in our forum.
I for one, am not in a perfect marriage,…but I have decided to stay.
We do laugh together. We do cuddle and feel comfortable together, and we bond on many things. It might not seem that important, but for me, it's vital. That keeps me in this marriage. If I didn't have those light moments, and my life would be more miserable then happy; … I would leave. If you're miserable; like many of us are in between, and that low feeling doesn't go away…ever ever….., no relief comedy, so to speak…. then you should change the situation.

Great advice, EW. She needs to hear different views I think.

I'd keep your appointment and see what the lawyer has to say. You may hear something eye-opening from your lawyer that will help you with your decision.

Baby steps, one day at a time, but look out for yourself, like many others here have shared.

Hi Chatty lady,

Sorry, I should have clarified that separation is also a consideration. Funny you mention the "dating game" again. During my original spell of counselling (on my own) the counsellor suggested the same thing. Unfortunately, I didn't follow her advice and like I said previously, our first attempt at separation was a farce.

If I do go ahead with the separation, I will definitely try that route again. Although I have to confess, I'm not convinced my feelings will change. Having read Danita's comment, she could be talking about my husband! I'm not convinced that his nice ways are sincere. My instinct is telling me it is another way of controlling me. You see, he basically LOVES money! I think he's doing everything in his power to "woo" me into not leaving him, which would mean splitting everything. My previous reference to "financial restrictions" was that basically my spending was restricted, however, his wasn't. A bit of unfairness to say the least. Plus, for the longest time he referred to it as his money. My name wasn't even on our bank accounts until I took him back (Jan. 2008. And THAT is after 23 years of marriage!

Anyway, I'm rambling (there is so many other factors in my situation, I could talk forever!)

I appreciate your comments.

Thank you Danita,

First of all, please feel free to say whatever is on your mind. Hearing that you have been married to a similar type person, it would be nice to "compare" notes.

As I've just mentioned to Chatty lady, you could have been talking about my husband!. In a way, I know he manipulated his way back into my life again. Unfortunately and embarrassingly, I fell for it, only because a close neighbor of mine had just died and I was going through a little bit of a vulnerable stage. I should have taken more time to think it over.

I have to admit that although I consider myself of normal intelligence, I still find it hard to believe that someone (especially a husband!) could treat me the way he did all those years ago. Yes, it could be classified as emotional abuse and in an effort to try and make things work, I know I should try and put that behind me, but it's very hard to forget it. Everytime I look at him, I see this horrible selfish person. This is what gets me, though...If, he is capable of being nice to me, as shown by his recent actions, why wasn't he able to treat me this way from the beginning? You know what I mean? It is just very suspicious to me.

Hi Edelweiss,

Di is right in that it's good to have alternative opinions and you do make a good point.

I've thought about whether I am expecting a perfect marriage, as a few people I've spoken to have hinted to me. However, I don't think I am. All I ever really wanted was a marriage! Two people who do enjoy each other's company, laughing, sharing, etc. We never had that. As I mentioned before, the trouble started as soon as the kids were born. He refused to let me care for my children in such a way that a new mother would have liked, which resulted in arguments and tears right from the start. So to say that I even liked him from that day forward is questionable.

Therefore the type of life I've lead, was mainly for the children. We technically lived two separate lives. I carried on, doing my "wifey" jobs, but my heart wasn't in it at all. I concentrated on the kids as they were more important and I refused to waste my energy arguing with him. He worked from home, but his job took him out of the house in the evenings.I did what I was "told" when he was in the house, then did what I liked when he went out to work. During the day, he would shut himself away, and really only come out for meals, etc.

So, to get back to your original question, no there is no laughter, or cuddles, etc. at all. If I had that, I probably wouldn't complain. He has accused me of having a "barrier" up between us, but I just can't turn on the switch and start loving him again. I feel as though we are just roommates living in the same house and it's been like that for a very long time. Having said that, in his effort of trying to change, I will say that we've probably talked more this past year, after having been reconciled, then we've ever talked in the whole 23 years of marriage!

So yes, it would be nice to have some kind of emotional connection and that is why I am considering the split. I don't think it could ever happen with him again, unless, of course, like Chatty Lady says, we start from scratch.

I was brought up with the notion that marriage is supposed to be happy. A partnership in the full sense of the word. I realize nothing is perfect, but the basic foundation of love, trust and respect has to be there. On that basis, any minor storms" can be weathered. Together.

Hi Jabber,

Thank you for your thoughts. I will endeavor to take your advice and go slowly.

I do have one niggling thought. I wonder if remaining in the same environment is stopping me from moving on. His old behaviour is still "haunting" me. I wholeheartedly believe I need to get back to my old self and start again.

Expat,

A close friend of mine said something REALLY thought provoking when I started going through my "transition"....

She said, "Danita, I can't help but wonder how being married to him is holding you back".

Wow. Was she right. Divorce isn't easy. It isn't what is best for the family unit...but, there is hope on the other side. There is freedom. There is joy. There is abundance. IF, we chose to seek it.

One has to move THROUGH the tranistion of divorce unto what I call "abundification".

Keep the faith expat....my philosphy throughout my process was, "I'm going to do the next RIGHT thing". I moved slowly, but deliberately and I have no regrets whatsoever!

Again, if it comes down to divorce, I'ld like to mention other things (financial, etc)....but if you are getting an attorney you should be ok. We had an "amicliable divorce" until his girlfriend started pressuring him to "stop paying me so much"...and now, I am fighting for every penny he owes me for the past two years. :0( I am fighting for the principal, to hold his feet to the fire for perhaps the first time in his life.


hugs,

danita

Expat, It's good that you have that lawyers appointment. I bet you may even feel giddy and even high just for taking your life in your own hands. I once left my husband,...just for a weekend...and after the initial tears were wept,...I thought I could leap over tall buildings. He begged me to come back. I did, and my leaving cleared many things. But mainly he realized that I mean what I say. And if he wants to keep me, changes had to be made.
Good luck in whatever path you take. Just believe in yourself!

expat, you mention getting your life back. Do you journal? If not, this might be a good time to do so. It really gives you clarity. Maybe you could journal one way to get your life back each day, week, whatever. But journaling can definitely be beneficial during trying times. Just a thought.

Hi Expat

I'm stepping into this a bit late...and I've read through what these Amazings have shared with you. All of it is soooooo right on target.

I've been divorced twice...lots of long stories that I'm happy to share if there is a nugget in there for you. However, that said, you have the best knowledge of what is best for you. You mention that you don't feel this is right for you. I would say "honor that, you know what is best". Keeping the "shoulds" out of our conversations isn't easy AND it is essential for getting to what is important to you.

My 1st husband was a nice man...and people wondered why I left. He was nice, and still is, AND he was remote and loved his work more than anything else. My second was emotionally and verbally abusive, to both my son and myself. And, if I had listened to my heart instead of my "shoulds", things would have been a bit easier, although I know I needed to learn what I did to be here.

Please listen to you...step into a quiet space and listen to your inner self, your heart as I call it, and trust that you know what is best for you. You deserve the gift of loving...of loving yourself and having someone else see your beauty, your gifts, and your loving heart. You deserve someone to laugh with, share tears with, play with and work with. You are an Amazing, my dear, you truly are.

Remote. IMO a large percentage of men fit that discription.
Expat,
only you know what you've been through and are currently going
through. IMO many guys think they're the superior gender. I really think many men think of women as second class citizens.
My dad wasn't like that, but I've known several others who came across as such. I truly pray you find happiness!

As everyone else who has responded, you, Jabber, have made another good point. As much as I try to convey all that has gone on in my life, I still feel as if it comes across as menial, everyday occurrences within a marriage. Believe me when I say it wasn't like that at all. Yes, I know how it has affected me and it's not a normal transition into a comfortable life with your husband.

However, it not only affected me, but my children also. It was almost as if our presence was interfering with his life. One occasion when I asked him to help my son with his homework, all he did was yell at him to get it done and walk out the room. Naturally, it left him in tears, so I had to go in to calm him down. I'm deviating again.

Let me try and and explain a bit more. As I said, once he changed, I made a choice to concentrate on the children's well being. That meant, carrying on as normal, doing what I needed to do to keep the peace and "protect" my children whenever his controlling ways came to the surface. We were playing "happy families", even though I knew the truth. Unfortunately, by this time, I resigned myself to the fact that this was my life and I just got on with it.

However, and I am being honest here, I would have continued to live that life, had it not been for two things. One is that I reconnected with an old friend and a guy at church was friendly to me. My old friend assured me that I was worthy of love and happiness and that no one should treat me that way. The guy at church isn't anything, but mere words like, "it's nice to see you" and "I thought about you the other day" has made me start to feel better about myself. That last comment came about when a couple was visiting from the States and knowing I was American, he thought I'd like to have a chat with them. That incident happened during my separation and it was rather embarrassing as I was almost in tears during mass, just because he was being nice to me.

So, my indecision also stems from feeling guilty that I might want more out of my life.

Now this is the strange part. During one conversation I had with my husband, I was honest with him about the fact that because of the state of our marriage, I am now starting to "look elsewhere" for lack of a better description. For someone who claims to still be in love with me, his answer was rather puzzling. With no sign of emotion or devastation,(I'm convinced he is emotionally stunted ) he merely said, words to this effect "if you end up having an affair and going with someone else, the state of your relationship would most likely end up the same". ,So, in other words, he thinks I will never be happy with anyone else!

I will need to stop here, as I will no longer have the privacy I require to finish this. I hope you all understand what I am trying to say.

IMO most men are emotionally stunted. I'm not being flippant here, I really, truly believe that.

Jabber, you still on? I can steal a few minutes. So, do you think I'm being selfish?

Hi Expat!
I'm sorry you are in this position.
I've been divorced more than once, I've learned a lot. My aunt and uncle are attorneys.

Every divorce lawyer has his/her duty to tell you that saving your marriage is the best way. Every divorce attorney is advised to advise you to "play nice." There are certain ethics they maintain, at least here.

If you are certain, and I could not read the last page of posts because they would not come up, I would say, move legally, move fast and move sure. This is the way men divorce. They move fast, and they move legally. They talk amongst themselves as we are doing here and they turn off emotion and start to protect their assets.

You need to be your own tough lawyer. You need to tell your lawyer that your husband loves MONEY and you are not prepared to walk away with nothing. Have him lay out a plan and stick to that plan like it is everything to you. Don't try to out think your lawyer and don't fall for any talking, in fact, the less talking the better until legal papers are in place.

Things get ugly when they are drug out or if the woman does not protect herself soon enough. You need to be pro-active with this and think ahead. Have your attorney help you make the plan.

the man sounds to me like exactly what you are saying, not someone you can work things out with or want to work things out with.

Take care of YOU and YOUR CHILDREN, and be a bit ruthless about that. Some men forget their children when they start to pay child support.

How are things now?

Dancer9

Expat,
Around noontime I sent you a PM [private message.] I haven't
gotten a response so wonder if you know how to work the dropdown.
Just click on the "my stuff" heading and a list drops down.
Then click on the messages.

NO! I don't think you are being
selfish. I think you have had it up to your ears. Guys can
really get to a person, sometimes. I didn't want you to think
I didn't care. I do care. But I don't consider myself a good
advice giver. I'm in a lot of pain right now, not due to marriage but other issues. Others on here, might be thinking
clearer than I at the moment. Prayers and blessings,

Expat,
You need to do what is good for you and your son. If you truly
believe your hubby to be a hopeless case, then do whatever will
improve everyone's life. All of us will pray you make the
right decisions and move toward a happy and healthy existence for
both you and your son.

Expat...

You are getting great feedback here. I'm glad I brought you on board!

One thing I recall being advised, in a general way some years back, was "KNOW you are right, then proceed". If you just KNOW what is right, then run with it. If there is indifference, proceed with caution.

If you KNOW this has/is effecting your children's mental health, (and I am assuming that a Mother's instinct is one that is never understood by anyone, not even a father), then you'd be doing the right thing. Sounds like a "legal" separation would be the safest/best way to begin.

Hi Di,

Deep in my heart, I feel a separation is the way to go, but I have to be honest and say I am very scared! Not one for confrontations, I dread having to tell him after my visit. He continues to carry on in a fantasy world, avoiding any kind of emotional discussion, which isn't good for anyone.

We'll see.

Be prepared, too, for him to want to just end it. Some men, I've learned, feel that "hey, if you do not want me, why be "wishy-washy"? Either you do or you don't."

So, just a little tip there.

Hi Dancer,

Thanks for your input. How am I? No further forward as to whether I am about to do the right thing or not!

As we all know, marriages do go stale, and sometimes I wonder why I think I am an exception to want more with my life.

It was just the lack of love and attention that set me off. I've been living a single life with the kids for so long, why should I stay married? And, as I said earlier, since he is now being as nice as pie, why couldn't he have been like that years ago! He put me through so much grief and it just gets me very angry.

If I go through with anything, it would be a separation initially. I have somewhat of a plan and am choosing to move out of the house myself. He could stay here. What else transpires, I will have to wait and see.

Expat, I'm so pleased he is being kind!
Do you think the scare was what caused him to see that he needed to change?

Sometimes that freshens a marriage.

I know that no one needs to live without the comfort and caring that they need, even if they get it from friends. You can even make your own, better family if you have to. Don't settle, you don't have to.

I've known my husband all of my life since I was 14 but it took me a long time to see him the way I do now. Now I have a longish and loving marriage I could have made years earlier if I had not wasted my time settling.

Time is your friend when looking for real love and caring and it is out there. I am an example of that. I married in my late thirties but as I said, I was married times before, and for the wrong reasons. I started over a lot. This marriage has more than made up for lost time. It's never too late.

But, again, sometimes loving marriages need a kick in the a** lol, before a man can remember the meaning of "caring, "being there," and "understanding." We must insist on that education for them.

Poor things, they know not what they do half of the time.

Wishing you very best of luck and love in your life,

Dancer

Yes, the separation certainly opened his eyes. But it only confirmed to me that he was in his own world and shut the rest of us out. Was oblivious to the fact that I was so unhappy.

Yes he is being nice, but I'm not sure he is sincere. Since I've talked about his controlling ways, I have a sneaky feeling he is only being nice to me as a way of still having the hold on me(as mentioned by Danita.

He says he loves me but his previous actions did not send me those kind of messages. I still don't feel any kind of emotional connection with him. That is why I am still struggling.

Expat,
When I mentioned sub-heading drop-down lists, I forgot to say merely click on the tiny, blinking envelope. That will get you to
your message file via the quickest, easiest route. Since you were relatively new to Dotsie's forum, I wasn't certain if
you realized drop-down lists existed.

Don't you wonder how many married people live together separately. Husbands have their favorite room, their own TV,
their own hobbies and pursuits. Wives go their own way.
One sits in the family room; the other stays in the living room.
I'll bet if truth be known, a large percentage of couples
live like that.

You are right, Jabber. I am definitely an amateur with forums but I did manage to try clicking on the envelope myself and found the shortcut. Thanks, though.

I have to agree with you about the couples living separate lives, together. Honestly, though, don't you think it's a sad state of affairs if marriage gets to that stage? What would be the point of getting married?

Anyway, I've come back from my appointment with the lawyer and it was very beneficial. I'd forgotten to mention that I've been to see her for advice before my first separation and she not only remembered me, but a lot of the details of my situation. What a memory! She's wants me to go away and consider how I really feel. If there is any chance of a reconciliation, then she recommends a separation. However, if I truly believe it is broken down, then she suggests going straight for divorce. I will be better off in the long run. She feels that if I go the legal separation route,if divorce is eventually imminent, he might not agree with any changes to the settlement. I will really have to dig deep into my heart for my answer. I came out feeling confident, though, which is a good thing.

Parallel, to that, my daughter stopped by today. She and I, along with my son, had a serious conversation about my plans. They are still supportive of me and that definitely makes me feel good.

Glad to hear you went though with the meeting. Even better is the fact that you feel confident.


When you say she want you to go away, do you mean to get away on your own for a few days and do some soul searching? IF so, take a journal!

I know you're scared, but can you put your finger on what you're afraid of?

Do you get at all excited about the thought of breaking free? If so, that might tell you something.

Expat,
Yes. I guess marriage is a sad state sometimes. Glad the meeting went well. And very happy that your children are supportive of you. That is huge, in my book. I wish you well, whatever you
decide to do.

I'm sure that is a HUGE relief that your children are behind you. As a child myself, I care about what my parent's mental state is. But I also know it's their own decision in the end. Once you have the emotional support, along with the love from family friends, it truly is so helpful. Having sorta been there/done that, I remember all too well the feeling of "what might others think of me". When it's all said and done, you'll know how your true friends/family are!

Sounds like things are working themselves out the way it should be. Good news!

Expat,
The Italians have some funny thoughts about marriage. For example, they say "You can't go back," meaning you can't get the feelings back, the passion back, towards something that has cooled.
They say "Marriages are made and broken in bed," meaning that is there is no passion, if there is no tenderness between two people, it's usually over.

You mentioned that you don't feel anything toward him so that brought to mind my Italian teachings! LOL. They turn out to be true so often!

They also say, in matters of love, "Follow your heart," so if your heart is not in it, in anything, for that matter, to them it's a waste of time.

I live this way. If I don't feel passion for something, I can't do it. If the passion is gone for me, it does not come back. Maybe bits and pieces now and again, but nothing lasting.

As I said in my post, all attorneys here in the US are told to first tell the people to try to fix their marriage or to ask if the marriage can be fixed. After this, they go ahead and represent you. So ~ Your lawyer is asking you if this marriage is completely broken.

Good luck and much support whatever you decide,

Dancer9

Expat, some churches have divorce care seminars. Mayhap you could attend or speak with one of their counselors as you take time to decide. There maybe women of like mind with past similar experiences to share your thoughts and emotions. Also, from my past experience, I relished the quite time sitting in a chapel 'listening' for answers. Peace and quite in nature allows for us to listen to our innerself, too.

Excellent advice, here. And MustangGal...that is a VERY good tip.

Expat.....call any church in your area. Does not need to be the one you attend. In fact, it should not be!!

Dancer, I agree about the passion,..but some marriages get comfortable too, without passion; still the love has remained.

I recognized myself in your description. Sometimes I feel like I'm acting when we cuddle or hold hands. My heart isn't in it either. I do it, though,- to please my husband. I do it because I think that's the way it should be. But my heart isn't in it. So Expat, I just want to agree with Dancer; once the love is gone, it is very hard to rekindle it. I've been trying, and it is very hard. I have turned into a cold person, at least towards my husband. And that isn't me. I loved being in love. I loved feeling passionate...but something has turned dead. So if you can feel passionate about going on your own, - at least that is a form of feeling alive.

Good Morning,

I'm afraid I don't have time to respond at the minute, as I'm getting ready to go to work, so I'll be back later.

I do however, want to thank everyone who has given me their thoughts. I will be honest and say I felt my confidence returning the minute I started chatting with all of you.

Bye for now.

I wish humans could keep that feeling you get when love is new.
You can't wait to be with the one you love. It doesn't matter
what you do, as long as you do it with them. Riding in a car is
an event. Walking is an event. Eating is an event. You're walking
on cloud nine. Life is wonderful, all the time. But everything new grows old. And that's sad.

I still have the feelings that Jabber describes when doing ANYTHING with my husband and we have been married for some time. Also, I've known him since we were kids...

There ARE marriages that have passion long after the blush wears off because the blush never wears off! It can be done, we just don't get talked about as much because we do love each other as we did in the beginning. We have love, passion and newness in our marriage every single day.

It IS an event walking with my husband, talking with him and doing anything with him.

Passion, we must have it. If there is anything that keeps us alive it is passion for something.

Can't wait to hear what you have to say, Expat...


Dancer

Hi Everyone!

There is so much to respond to, so I'll try my best to cover everything.

Dancer, I am so happy that you have retained that passion throughout your lengthy marriage. It must be wonderful to have that feeling each and every day. So, are you going to share your secret with the rest of us? Joking aside, I've come to my own conclusion about this and tell me if this pertains to you (or anyone else who still has the spark) Also tell me if some of you disagree with me. I think the basis of a long happy marriage is that you both start off as friends. Friends do exactly what you described. Doing everything together. Walking, talking, laughing, crying etc. Then one day, the friendship "explodes" into romance. LOVE IS FRIENDSHIP IGNITED, so to speak.

Will have to stop this here, as my privacy is about to be intruded upon.

Duh! Sorry, Dancer, I just reread your message and you did say you've known your husband since you were kids. So maybe my theory is correct. Being of Italian descent myself, I've never heard of those teachings. Good ones, though!

Dotsie - No, she didn't mean physically go away, just to think about things before my next appointment. And yes, I DO get excited thinking about being on my own. I feel the freedom already. You mention starting a journal and although it is a good idea, I'm not sure I would have the time to keep it up. It did bring back memories, though, as I used to keep a diary when I was younger.

As for being afraid. My fear is this... When I finally make my decision,I am afraid to confront him. Mainly because he starts his mind games again. He's done on a few occasions. He conveniently and selectively "forgets" certain things he's done/said, which obviously makes it look as though I made it all up! That gets me very angry, but it also seems to work, because I then start questioning myself. What kind of man would do that to his wife, except one who is desperate to put the blame on her and/or to keep her under his control? This is what I am up against.

Edelweiss - You are right. You go through the motions because it's expected of you. "Dead and Alive" is exactly how it is for me. When I'm with hubby, I feel dead because there is no emotion, or laughter, etc. When I am on my own, with friends or with my children, I feel alive.

As for divorce seminars, Mustang Gal/Di, I've never heard of them, but will endeavor to search them out.

Time for me to say good bye. Look forward to your opinions about my "friendship" theory. Oh, maybe I should say, hubby and I had an unconventional meeting. It was a shipboard romance.

You could be right about your friendship theory. Ross and I knew one another before dating. He was my brother's friend so we knew a lot about one another before dating, became best friends and got married. We've remained best friends for 28 years of marriage. Woohoo.

Your posts may be making your situation clearer for you. The fact that the only thing that scares you is telling him, makes me realize that it's soemthing you can get behindyo as soon as you spill your guts. If you were afraid of living alone or making it on your own, that's a different story. Also, the fact that you are a happy girl when he isn't around is also very telling.

Hang in there. One day at a time. I'm sure your path will be made clearer with each passing day.

Expat,
I think a couple needs to be friends, for a rich, lasting marriage. And I agree, marriage needs a degree of passion. But some couples get used to each other; they take their spouse for granted. And there are guys who refuse to take the blame for anything, even when they know they're at fault. That must be a guy thing. I, personally, am happy 'n content; though I gripe about gender personality differences. All that comes under the category of being human. Two people spending day-in, day-out in one house, are bound to get on the each others nerves, now and again.
But IMO couples can and do have long marriages, without the red hot passion dancer describes. Two people can co-exist with a compatible, content love affair and live happy, healthy lives.
IMO

Oh, and I agree with you Jabber. It doesn't have to be passion all the time, you do have to be friends. If you have that closeness and really enjoy each other's company, whether it be "vegging out" in front of the TV or doing something together, that definitely makes for a happy marriage. If I had at least that much, I certainly would be content. Oh yes, we all have our gripes, minor disagreements don't jeopardize marriages. But, I'm afraid I don't have that closeness/friendship. Years of his controlling ways have made me lose all the feeling I had for him. I do try and forget the past, but I can't shake it from my mind. He was totally unfair in doing what he did. He didn't treat me like his wife and the reason for that stems from his upbringing. His father treated his mother the same way, so he chose to continue the pattern, instead of breaking it.

But wait, listen to this! I'm reading a book at the moment and I just read a paragraph on this exact topic. I'll quote a few sentences..."I never thought you could have a best friend and a lover all rolled into one". "The best friend bit is the most important, because that's what lasts for always". That says it all, doesn't it?

Have a good night.

Wow Dotsie, yet another confirmation of my theory!

As for me, I am also continually second guessing myself, as I stated. If I look at it from another perspective, was everything he did to me, petty? Sure, I was able to carry on as normal. I realize that is what Jabber is meaning, no marriage is perfect. But my knowledge and teachings of a marriage, was definitely NOT what I experienced.

My parents had a good marriage. Yes, they fought, but they loved each other dearly. My mother died years ago and although my father is remarried, my siblings and I can still see that he misses her. I guess I base my own marriage on theirs, even though I know everyone's is different. Sometimes I do wonder if I have high expectations. But,I don't think so. Love and respect is all I ever wanted from him, but never received.

And why shouldn't you or all of us have high expectations, what are we chopped liver??? Maybe perfect is rarely attainable but near to it is, so keep up your ideals Expat and go for it.

Thanks Chatty.

A few ladies at work were generally discussing marriage yesterday, and they agree with you, too. Women do have certain "expectations" by which they choose a partner. If they don't have certain characteristics they admire in a man, then they move on to seek out someone else. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It's life the way we know it, really. I think so anyway.

BTW, I've been having internet trouble lately, hence the delays. Have a good day everyone.

Expat,
How are you doing? Wishing you well and hoping you find happiness!

Am wondering the same.

Expat, just take all the time you need and when you're sure of what it is you want, follow your heart.

Amen!

Hi Ladies,

I'm sorry I haven't been on. There are a few reasons for this. I've been taking some time to think about my circumstances, have not had a lot of private time. Hubby pops up now and again to see what I am doing on my computer and I certainly don't want him to see this site. The last is that I hope I am not boring you with my repetitive complaints. I know it's good to "vent" but I don't want to overdo it.

Anyway, as always I need to go. Not having such good sleep nowadays,which is understandable, I tend to sleep a bit late, leaving me to rush to get to work.

Have a nice day.

Oh, and thank you all for being concerned. It's nice to have your support.

The sleep issue in pretty common when going through stressful times.

Take your time. This is a major decision. Be well and take care of you.

Just wondering if you're exercising... It certainly helps during stressful times like these. It may also help you sleep too.

Hi Dotsie,

Believe it or not, I actually started exercising before Christmas and it did help with my sleep. However, due to various health problems...I hurt my leg bowling too much (but it was fun!) then I sprained my back, so I haven't been back since.

My time is running out for making my decision, as the next appointment with my solicitor is on Monday. I continue to imagine myself on my own with my son, and I feel so "free" (even if it's just in my mind), so I'm leaning towards leaving. As yet, I'm still not sure whether it will be a legal separation or straight into divorce. There are a lot of questions to be asked.

Time for a cup of tea. I'll be in touch. Take care.

Get out the pen and pad and begin listing the pros and cons of divorce, and pros and cons of staying together. But be very honest because once its done it usually stays done.

That's a good idea, Chatty. Thanks. I'll do that this weekend. It may help make things clearer for me.

Have a good day.

That was a great idea, Chatty! Expat take care of yourself!
Prayers and blessings,

I am a list maker and so far in my life those lists may have saved me from making some very wrong decisions.

I made a long list of pros and cons before I went back to the phone job to increase my income. You should have seen that list!

Good luck with the phone job, Chatty!

Checking in on expat...

Hi Dotsie,

Nothing to report, I'm afraid. After doing my pro/con list, I decided to go ahead with the legal separation. I was under the impression that during this meeting, we were going to set down the terms of settlement first, then I would approach my husband. However, she reiterated that he still has to agree to the conditions before we can proceed. I'm obviously a novice at this. Therefore, it was a very short appointment and I'm no further forward. Both he and I are off work next week, so I will have to get up the courage to discuss it with him.

I have to say this, though. It sure is easy just to forget everything and carry on as normal. If other women can stay in marriages for the convenience, then why not me? The answer, of course, is that I don't agree with it. A friend of mine springs to mind here. She recently admitted that she married her husband in order to stay in the country. I couldn't believe it. But to each his own, I guess.

Anyway, thank you for asking and I'll keep you updated. Take Care.

Expat, I admire you. And although you sprained your back, you still have alot of backbone.

Yes, she does! Either one DOES or they DO NOT. Being wishy/washy is, to me, faking it.

Expat......I'm SO proud of you for standing for something, or you'll fall for anything!

Hey Edelweiss!

I was just reading a comment you made in another post and came back to respond to it.

This is what you said....

"It's really a very important aspect to consider for those who might be thinking of getting a divorce. And for the single ladies here; Maybe it is worth thinking about moving in with a good friend."

You were talking about people being on their own in times of emergencies. I must confess, that aspect of it never crossed my mind when considering leaving my husband. Do I go back to the drawing board?

Hey Di,

How did you creep in? You must be busy with your soap orders, as I haven't heard from you in a while.

Thinking of you Expat. Holding you in prayer!

Thanks Jabber,

I'm still in limbo. Because I'm on vacation from work next week, I am supposed to be talking to hubby, but there is always something putting it off. Today it's Valentine's Day, tomorrow, it's dinner at mother in law's,(definitely not a good time) Monday, I'll be spending the day with a friend. When is the right time! Plus, I don't know how to begin. He burys his head in the sand, which makes it difficult to have a serious conversation about our situation. We just go about our business as if nothing is wrong, which makes it more difficult for me. However, I am determined to try and discuss things openly and honestly with him and hope he reciprocates. What I get a bit angry about is that he KNOWS our marriage is over, but for some reason is very reluctant to accept it.

Thats called SELFISH Expat, he doesn't want the marriage but he also doesn't want to be uprooted, have to fend for himself and lose things like his home. His acting as if everything is the same as usual going out together etc. is proof of that. These dam men want their cake and to eat it too. You know the divorce if there is one, will be up to you to start, monitor and end. The men are never any help unless there is another woman involved coaching him from the other side...

VERY good feedback, Chatty. He has no reason to end it because 1: his head IS in the sand (can't SEE worth a darn!) 2; he gets all he needs.....since he is emotionless, he gets NO emotion back (due to Expat living like a robot); he gets food, clean laundry etc.

Expat....if YOU want it, YOU will need to do it...or not. Plain and simple.

I don’t know if I shared this story on line or not. It’s a true story that happened in my home town. About 4 years ago, a group of boomer women met weekly to meditate. Of course it wasn’t just meditation, they all became good friends, and shared their deepest secrets. Within two years, every single woman in the group got a divorce. There were 8 of them!

Four of the ladies, got together and bought a house in South France, opened a wine and dine restaurant (that in France!) and run an artsy boutique on the side. I know all this so well, because I got the contract to sell all 4 of their houses.

Each of their x- husbands told me the same story. Not one of them admitted having a clue that his wife was so unhappy. They were all in shock, and didn’t know what hit them. Okay, I got to admit, maybe bad talking men can be damaging to a marriage, especially some marriages that could be saved;…but still it goes to show how men live in their cotton candy world. No wonder they don’t change, because they can’t believe they are walking a tight rope, no matter how often you tell them that.

The only thing that changed my husband, to the better, is the physical change. I moved out; it took only one weekend. But if a man doesn’t change after that,…I don’t believe he ever will.

Thanks for all your feedback. Chatty, you are absolutely right. He has always been a selfish man. I do believe the reason he is being so nice is for exactly what you said. He doesn't want to lose the house, etc. You are also right about "another woman". However, I surmise it has been his mother and sister who "coached" him into manipulating his way back into the house after our original separation. (although, I can't rule out another woman, as I've suspected there might be. But, as he has said himself, I can't prove it) Being his sister is divorced, she would know that not having any young children at home, there would be no legal reason for me to stay here. What my husband doesn't know is that I will be letting him stay in the house. I will be moving out.


This leads me to you, Edelweiss...

First of all, I want to say how happy I am that things worked out after you left your husband. The two of you obviously love each other enough to work at your marriage. Mine is a different case.....Our separation did indeed change him. He does go out of his way to be nice to me, but I need more. As Di said, it's the emotional side of it for me that's lacking. Having had 20 years of both controlling behaviour and neglect, I don't feel the same for him. So, he may be able to turn on his "switch" and become very nice, I can't start loving him again at the drop of a hat. His gestures all seem very superficial.

I know I have to be the one to make the move, and I realize I keep putting it off by waiting for the right time. But it's important for me to be in the right frame of mind. If I so much as shed one tear, I put myself in a vulnerable situation and he will grab the opportunity to try and change my mind. When I think of it, it's ridiculous to be afraid to talk with your own husband, and I know it's my insecurity that is making me feel this way, but I need to prepare myself. Again, ridiculous for an almost 55 year old woman!

By the way, I loved the story about those 8 friends who all divorced their husbands. The ones you mentioned certainly sound as if they made the right move. Now, if the majority of men are in their own little world,(there has to be some out there who know what is going on with their wives) why do they get married at all?

My husband lacks visible emotions, but he's a carbon copy of his mom: looks, actions, mannerisms, intelligence, likes and dislikes. He's a product of his environment, so I really can't
fault the guy. But IMO many men, at least the ones I've encountered, live in their own little world. I wonder if they
get married, so they can be king of their own castle? Or to have
somebody take care of them? Or someone cook for them; clean for
them; do their laundry; etc., etc. Just thinkin' out loud here!

Expat...I feel for you. Having gone thru something similar (as you know) it is not easy. BUT, I'm thinking that, instead of being in a vulnerable state of mind you need to be in a "MAD" state of mind.

Be prepared for him to cry, and hem and haw and beg to change. But stand firm. The damage has been done.....and I know you've "warned him" thru the years. Too late....the niceties that he is doing, he needs to be told, is "NOT WORKING"! They do not get into your heart deeply enough to FEEL the motion and get it back.

I agree with you Jabber and mine is no exception, I know. The difference with me is that I just wasn't allowed to be me. I wasn't given any freedom to make decisions without his "permission". He took control over EVERYTHING! Oh, I was allowed to bring up the children (more or less on my own) and him, but the "couple" part of our marriage disappeared with his selfishness. A marriage isn't supposed to be that way. There should be respect for each other's opinion, and I never had that. Sometimes it felt as if he was digging my grave. Slowly but surely, I was dying inside because of his behavior. He took away my spirit and I need to get it back. Not only for my sake, but for my son's. He is floundering at the minute and it breaks my heart. My husband has "left" his well being to me,(another sign that he's never been "into" the children) but I need to help myself first in order to help him. And, although I probably shouldn't say this, but I would do anything for my children!

Right, Expat. There was NO his/hers but all mine, mine, mine. And you, "wife" just follow orders"!

Expat, I was told that I could only do things "within reason". Whose reason was that? His. I felt trapped and controlled.

I'm so much happier alone.

Hi Di,

Yes, that's true. I'm back again because I always think of more things after I post something! Maybe this is a better way of describing it, Jabber...as if I was a hired hand. He just worked all the time and didn't want anything to do with us. It was as if we were intruding on his life. He was more interested in saving money than spending time with his family. Sad, but true. Now he wants us to forget that part of it and carry on as if nothing was wrong. Like your husband, a product of his upbringing, but that could only be used as an excuse for his actions.

That is exactly how I felt, Mustang! Trapped, like a caged animal and one shouldn't feel that way within a marriage. So, you are much happier now?

I will be leaving soon to go to Mother in law's for dinner, but I'll be back tomorrow.

Expat........people have a CHOICE to BE a product of their upbringing or not. NO ONE, especially a husband, should RULE. It should all be out of "love" not demand and dictatorship.

I have a friend whose mother (at age 15) gave her up when she was very small, to her birth father. Not until my friend was 16 did she go back to her mother. Her mother, now, is very cold and has lots if "issues"...very atheistic, pouts, has no motherly instinct (my friend is 62!) and even passes this onto her dogs.....she actually "does not talk to her dogs" and closes them into a bedroom to punish them. The reason I say this is that my friend's conclusion is this: Because her mother never raised kids AND was selfish to begin with, her "nurture" never got developed, per her own choice. Therefore; a cold, unfeeling human being is walking around with not "spirit of God' in her.

This made me think of your situation. He never got "into" raising kids.......so he never learned how to care, sacrifice, love etc. TOO LATE NOW!!! YOU, Expat, deserve much, much better.....you deserve to be loved and acknowledged for what you are very capable, and willing, to give back to someone who appreciates you. We shall reap what we sow.

God wants his children to BE loved, as He first loved us. He sacrificed His own Son to die on a cross. THAT is love!!

Sadly, the love is gone in mine, but I agree with you 100%. It also goes along with Dotsie's quote in her recent newsletter.


May we love others so that every ounce of their potential oozes from them. And equally important, may we recognize the people in our lives who are helping us reach our potential, our reality. And lastly, if we aren't feeling loved, may we seek to find people at midlife who are willing to build us up as we do the same for them.

Gotta go.

Expat, there are no time limitations on readiness. It happens when it happens, and when it does you will know and act accordingly. In the meantime get things ready both mentally and financially for your exit.

Expat,
I just want you to be happy; do what makes you happy. This is
my 2nd marriage. And I'm content and happy. But you need to do
what makes you happy. If the guy has stuff you cannot overlook,
than only you know that. Do what's right for you. I don't want
to sound preachy or know-it-all, because I don't. I overlook
a lot of stuff that some women would not. My 1st hubby ran around with women and hungout all night. This guy is a stay at home sort. I like that. He overlooks my shortcomings too. You do what will make your life whatever you desire it to be. Lately, I was told, and it warmed my heart, go in grace. I think grace means the favor of God.
Prayers and blessings...

Expat, I'm glad to hear that spoke to you. Those were my thoughts after reading that quote. And that to me is what our midlives have to be about. And it doesn't always have to be a man that loves us into your potential. Sometimes it's a sister or girlfriend. But it shouldn't be our husband who is tearing us down. That's just not right.

Husbands are suppose to lift us up and encourage us and be our
buttress and support. They're somewhere to run to for courage and safe harbor. The rest of the world does enough tearing
down, nobody needs that at the homefront, too. Good luck in
whatever you do, Expat! We'll be praying for you!

Jabber, well said!

Hi everyone,
Been reading your comments.

Jabber, I'm glad you're happy. Your comments made me think, though. With all his faults, my husband has always been a stay at home man. But, by default, really. Because his work is his life, he has no friends. I've always tried to encourage him to contact an old school friend more regularly, but it never materialized. He's always kept to himself. There have been times I feel sorry for him, but it's his choice. I can't force him to socialize. A few years ago we did start going out with a friend of mine and her husband, but that is only once a year around Christmas time. The only other social activity we have is going to the movies. He's always been that way. I've always had to maintain my own social life, in order to keep my sanity. His job originally entailed working at night, so it was a bit limiting for him anyway. Now, it's reversed, but we still don't do much, except now we add watching TV to the agenda. I know that's not a bad thing, but it would be nice to be more adventurous at times. It's sad, really. He has no life in him, and I'm the opposite.

Yesterday I had a great day with my friend, laughter was high on the list. Because I was feeling on top of the world, and confident that I wouldn't cry, I decided to try and talk with my husband. Unfortunately, it backfired. Tears continued through the night. This morning, I also ended up staying in bed until 2:00 p.m. as I just couldn't be bothered. He wasn't speaking to me, anyway. Even though we tried again later on, we haven't resolved anything. To me, he still comes across as thinking about himself again, so it's hard for my message to sink in. I'm very frustrated at the minute and do not know where it will go from here. I'll keep you posted.

If you can afford it maybe some time away from him, a little vacation with someone you feel good around, would help. Get away from it for awhile. They say absence makes the heart grow fonder but sometimes it just makes the heart grow up, and makes it want to kick the other person to the curb for keeps.

Expat,
Glad you at least got in a little laugh time. Chatty has a good
idea, if you can get away it might help. My current husband
does not socialize, either. He's a loner. Sometimes I think he
must've been badly hurt along the road of life and that's why he is afraid of closeness. Don't know. But his whole family is that
way. I have seen lots of men who are loners, however. Good luck there girl; we'll be thinkin' about you!

You know: It's so easy to get married. Wouldn't be nice if it
was that easy to get divorced?

Good idea, Chatty, and this week would have given me the perfect opportunity as I'm off work, but the days have been passing me by. On the other hand, I'm not sure I would have liked to leave my son, as sometimes, I'm the only one who actually makes time to speak to him. Wouldn't want him to feel deserted. I've just been reading the comments in "How long do you stay in a bad marriage" and was both uplifted and comtemplative about my situation. One minute I want to leave and the next I doubt my actions.

And yes Jabber, it would be nice if divorce was just as easy. No guilt, just a mutual agreement, sign on the dotted line and off you go!

Take the kid along. He and you can have some real one on one time and relax at the same time. Just a thought!

And to you and jabber, I have yet to see an amicable divorce, even when both partys say it will be one, it never really is.

I sure didn't experience one. I can't be in the same room with
my ex. Like the song says, "I Fall To Pieces."

P.S. When a person spends a large chunk of their life,
loving and focusing on one human being, then that
relationship simply dies, I don't understand how the
split can be all that friendly.

That's true, Jabber. Unless of course, both parties admit the relationship is over, which we all know never happens.

My actual divorce proceedings were amicible...

It was just about six months after the divorce when life got financially hard for him having to support us (maintenance and child support) and support himself (with his girlfriend whining about why he sent all his money to us).

Since then - it has gotten down right ugly. I cant stand to even look at him.

Since the divorce, I've felt like a used paper plate. 21 years and he doesn't give a crap about my survival. I don't understant THAT!

So, when people say they are going through an amicable divorce, the little devil on my shoulder says, "yaaaaaaa, riiighhhttt!".

My goal is to someday have an advocacy program for women like myself - who don't have the money to fight, and who deserve someone in their court.

Their are advocates for the children, for the abused, but not for us average janes. I truly hope to fix that. (and when I say advocates, I hope to be able to find attorneys who will represent these women for free - just based on principal).

Enough of that.

:0) GOing to spend the day with my son in the mountains! Wahooo

danita

There is a group who's name escapes me that if you call them and no matter how far behind the creep ex is behind in payments, they get the money...They have a 100% success rate, are tough as nails and get the job done. And it doesn't cost an arm and a leg for the woman. I think its pay when/if they win. I will look and see if I can find their name and post it here. Try googling child support!

Chatty,

Child Support enforcement is taking care of collecting past child support - but I could use help getting past and current maintenance due. So if you find that name..please let me know!

Danita

How was your day in the mountains with your son?

I'm still looking Danita, I wish I would have written it down.

Dots,

My day with my son was amazing. We visited our old church, which made me a tad bit teary. I remember my ex sitting beside me just weeping after his secret life was found out. eeek. Sad memory.

Visited family friends, and spent the four hour drive chatting.

I have to tell you - since he arrived home - I cry much less. Its like someone planted my heart back in my chest.

I did find out today that I'm layed off from my Office Depot job. (which pays the bills). I'm believe the good Lord has something better waiting for me!

hugs,

danita

p.s. perhaps NOW the courts will see that I need my court ordered child support and maintenance.

p.p.s.s. Chatty, if you find it I would be thrilled!

Danita, so sorry to hear of your lay off, but boy do I love your attitude girl.

I serve on a local committee of about ten people. Of the ten, two husbands have been layed off (one a physician) and a child of a member (that would be my son), and one member said two good friends were layed off in the same day. This is getting out of control. Though I thought Obama's speech was hopeful.

The news about your heart is magnificent. I know how you ached when he was in Maryland. So glad that season is behind you.

Wow, getting a teenaged boy to chat for four hours must mean you have something special. Cherish it. I know you do.

MY ex found out last night he will be getting an extended 17 weeks of unemployment which will take him through June. I am not suer whether to laugh or cry. He will be able to help with space rent and pay for his car so long as he is here. He is looking for something sooner and hopefully he'll find it. Oh well!

Danita, I bet God does have something special waiting for you. I will pray he does.

Danita, I'm sorry about your layoff. Maybe the below site might be helpful:


https://childsupport.state.co.us/siteuser/do/vfs/Frag?file=/cm:app/cm:home.jsp

I know, Obama's speech was hopeful; yet, with more layoffs, how can anyone spend any money? And those with jobs that maybe anticipating a layoff, are saving money.

Hello ladies, it's me!

I know I haven't been on for quite a while, but as you know I've been going through a lot. The last few months have definitely been a roller coaster ride, but I have finally made a decision. I have decided to move out with my son. We found a rented place nearby and will be moving tomorrow. It has been a very hard decision but one I believe is right for us.

My husband and I have been going through a lot these past months, some good discussion and others not so good, and at the moment I am still a bit wobbly, but once I get out, I'm sure I will get stronger.

There will be a gap in my internet connection until I get sorted, but I will be back as soon as I can.

Thank you for all your support through my troubled time.

Expat, I wish you an oasis of peace in your new home, where you can gather strength and discover all what you are capable of.
It will surely not be easy finding your own true self and at the same time being a mother to your son, but you'll make it. I can tell from your posts how determined and strong you are!

Thank you ever so much, Edelweiss. I will do my best.

Expat,
Wish you all the best. Hope you and your son find strength,
renewal, restoration and tons of happiness as time progresses.
Prayers and blessings,

In fact, I've been through a divorce and wish all of you well!
My upset was way back in 1979 and, even now, I can feel what
you're going through!

Expat, thanks for the update. May you find peace and a renewed sense of strength, courage, and a will to do what is best for you and your son. I'm certain it's hard to leave your home, but your new place will be full of love and less stress - and that's what makes a happy home. Thinking of you during your transition.

Expat,

A new begining! I too will be praying for you!

I've been through a simular situation and am now on the other side. There IS life after an unsatisfying marriage!

hugs,

danita

Hi Girls,

We've just gotten connected again and I thought I'd pop on. It's been two weeks and although the first week was great with moving, getting things in order, having the energy to tidy up the garden, etc. last week hasn't been very good for me. I thought I would be jumping for joy once we moved out, but I haven't gotten that feeling yet. I still feel as if I am attached to hubby and maybe feel guilty about being happy, too. I realize I might be expecting too much too soon, but are there stages one goes through when leaving a marriage? I'm also aware that not feeling well has a lot to do with state of mind, so I should probably be more patient.

On the other hand, I've seen a tremendous change in my son, which is all that I had hoped for. Still a way to go with him, but I am relieved with what is happening so far.

Hope everyone is well and a Happy Mother's Day to everyone!

HI Expat.

Having left marriages, jobs etc...yes, I believe there are stages one goes thru. I think any kind of "long term" relationship, whether it's a boss or husband, takes time to adjust away from. As women, we perhaps take "ownership" in our duties, again either in a job or as a wife..and when that is severed, it feels as if your arm were removed. The home is the wife's castle. And when the castle walls are torn town, the home/nesting feeling is also torn. So, again......the adjustment period happens. Patience shall be practiced thru this transition.

Expat, it's normal to go through a grieving process when any kind of relationship ends. When I divorced, I was very depressed for a while and felt guilty as if it was my fault the marriage ended (we had been married almost 25 years). Allow yourself time to feel sad, guilty, whatever, but tell yourself you will only allow that for a specific amount of time - for example, I will let myself feel bad today, or until lunch, or until 6pm tonight, or whatever feels manageable to you. Those feelings won't go away all at once, it's a gradual process, and you may have to have pity-pot parties daily for a while. But once you emerge back into the daylight, it's a wonderful feeling! And the grieving process is different for each person, so don't compare your progress to someone else's. And remember we are all here for you.

Yonuh,

I know what you mean about feeling as if it's your fault. I think I will always have that kind of feeling because my reasons weren't all that bad in other people's eyes. However, I needed to go by what I felt.

You've given me such good advice, I will practice it from now on.

Good point, Di. I've never really considered your point of view about leaving a job, too.

I think my problem is aggravated by the fact that I've had to go back to the house to use the internet. Seeing that my husband has made changes, really upsets me. As the saying goes..."he didn't even wait until the body was cold!" So yes, it's hard to see him doing the things that I should be doing. Moreso, differently!

I also get upset over leaving my cat and I know it sounds ridiculous, but I think I shed more tears for him than my husband! He used to sit on the window sill waiting for me to come home from work to feed him. When I asked my husband if he still does that, he said not as much, which started the tears again. The cat doesn't understand why I am no longer there and that makes me feel even more guilty for leaving.

I'm sure it takes a while to get the internet set up at your home, but it's probably best to have it done quickly and to stay away from "home" for some time. I'm sure going back can be upsetting.

Maybe in time, you can get a new cat?

Even though you are a bit rattled, I still hear hope in your posts, and that's so cool. I beleive you know that you did the right thing for your son and yourself. Embrace the adjustment time and feel whatever you need to feel. I think yonuh gave great advice about that.

I'm proud of your courage.

The new apartment she has does not allow pets.

Yes, Di is right. I can't have any pets where we are, which is really sad. Naturally, that only adds to my grief. You see,we're only renting at the moment - initially for 6 months.

Until we decide what to do with the finances, I am in limbo. Although I know I shouldn't go back now that we are connected, I still feel the need to see him so he knows I am still around. Sad, again, I know, but like you said, pets are family members.

If only there for 6 months couldn't you sneak the cat in and just keep it away from windows. There is always a way when things are desperate enough. If you get caught just say it came to the door and you were waiting for someone from the SPCA to come fetch it....???????????????

Expat,
Praying for you and your son. Hope all is fine and you find
somewhere to rent, where you can have pets. There are landlords
around with a heart, who allow tenants to own pets. Blessings,

As a coach who specializes in divorce, most women do not realize the emotional roller coast ride of divorce. It is extremely important for your friend to take care of herself like she has never done before. Eat well, exercise, get plenty of rest, but most importantly take a minimum of 10 minutes a day to recharge her batteries or fill her energy tank. For example journal, meditate, relax with a cup of tea in a favorite chair or a sacred space. One method that works well with my clients, change your scenery and be present in the moment using all your senses.

Happy,
Your advise is good 4 everyday living, as well!

Joanie knows her stuff, let me tell you. Glad to see you here, Joanie, and thanks for offering this advice. Coming from someone who's been there, done that, I can tell you that her words are dead on. It is so important to put your mental self first during all of this!

You know, I just popped on here because I am in a terrible state at the minute. I started reading all your posts and found the need to write.

I've just come from the house to pick up something and ended up spending time with the cat again. Naturally, I ended up in tears and had to leave. But what really upset me is the fact that my husband doesn't seem to give a ****! There have been quite a few incidents lately which confirms the fact and I realize it shouldn't bother me, as I know he's not an emotional person, but I still find it unbelievable that he can be so cold!

I mean, he knew we were moving out, but:

1. Never asked where we were moving to until two weeks after I informed him.
2. Didn't even ask the number of the flat until moving day.
3. Never asked for our phone number. I eventually offered it just in case he wanted to enquire about us.
4. Never even called to see how I was with my recent bad reaction to some medicine I was taking.
5. Never calls to, at least, tell me there is mail for us at the house.

It's not that it's totally unexpected, but all throughout he kept insisting that he still loved me. Surely not the actions of someone who supposedly feels that way. I guess I am still naive in thinking he actually meant it!

I know it's crazy, as he's always been unemotional, but it hurts me terribly to see him so uncaring. Sorry, but the tears just keep flowing.

Wait...a thought just popped into my head...Do you think he is doing this intentionally to make me feel bad for leaving him? I just don't know. Like I said, it just popped into my head.

And yet, as upset as I am over all this, I agreed to go with him to a concert at one of the schools in which he teaches. How naive am I? I was about to call him to cancel the date, but hung up. Talk about emotional roller coaster.

I knew this was going to be hard, but it's obviously harder than I ever imagined.

I'm so sorry you are suffering, but from the way he's acting, I think you are doing the right thing.

What do you miss most:

the house
the cat
him
or the idea of no longer having the ever after piece to your marriage?

When I'm down, I either pray or take a walk outside. I hope there is something you can do to change your frame of mind, at least for a bit. Cringing and hurting for you in MD. Hang in there

Expat, this might not be the best example, but I remember…a looong time ago I wanted to break up with my boyfriend. I had written him a letter and had no doubt in my mind that I wanted it to be over. Well, the creep was faster than I was. He called and broke up with me, and I was devastated. Even while I was terribly hurt, I couldn’t understand it, because I didn’t want him anymore. So I guess it was my pride that hurt. Hurt pride is pain full…but maybe not as pain full as a broken heart.
Whatever, Hon, just spill out your sorrow. Let it out. And if your husband isn’t crying over you, then it’s just another confirmation that you have done the right thing.

These ladies have lots of wisdom. Dotsie's "list" is a good one.
EW, that happened to me once, too. I was all set to give his ring back, and HE came to my house. I, too, was upset yet relieved. That was long ago.

As I'd mentioned in another post, it's "affirmation" that we need. You will get thru this, Expat. As with any severing of a bond, the body needs to heal. It hurts and itches and hurts some more. Sometimes therapy is needed to get YOU back on track.

I'm soo sad for you, my friend. I wish I could be where you are. Pick yourself up by your bootstraps and get going on the healing journey.

I say cancel the concert. How are you going to "heal" from that severed "arm" by re-attaching the BAD one!

I think he is "being himself"...cold and manipulative.

I know, these ladies are wise, Di. Plus you and Edelweiss know exactly how I feel. Maybe it is pride, too, but certainly a broken heart. Yes, even though I haven't felt anything for him in a very long time, this cuts deep.

I've calmed down a bit now as I took your advice, Dotsie and went outside to water in the weed killer with my son!


As for your questions, you have given me food for thought.

I don't miss the house as such. I miss the feeling of "home" but I think that's natural living in rented accommodation instead of your own home.

I definitely miss the cat. My daughter is actually moving again and says she should be able to take him. I hope she can, as that will be better for me to visit without having to see my husband for a while.

As for him and "ever after". I believe I miss the "old" him and still wonder why he "left" me. That I find the hardest, I think. Ever after, I'm not sure. I will have to give that more thought. Off the top of my head, I can say this. All I ever wanted was to have a normal family life. I feel as if he took that away from me when his behaviour changed after the children were born. Having said that, I truly believe that our cultural differences played a big part in where we are now. However, I also have to take some of the blame for not standing up to him during his cruel spells. That is something a lot of people have said to me and I have to reluctantly agree. But he didn't treat me right and still thinks he did nothing wrong. There is one more thing I have to be honest about. I don't think he was a good father. I've defended him to my children for a long time over that issue, and it still hurts me dearly that they don't have a good relationship with him, but I think it's time I stopped defending him. That hurt on their behalf will never go away, but I have to let it go. I also think that because we haven't split anything financially yet, I still feel I am in limbo.


One more thing..while I've been writing, I texted my husband to cancel tomorrow night's concert. He asked why I cancelled and I explained I was too emotional right now and wouldn't be able to cope with it. His reply was basically this..Ok, I was going to call tonight but thought it better to give you time, as you seemed pretty upset. My reply, in so many words, was that I reminded him he was going to call me the other night to ask how I was but didn't. But then I added that it was obvious he really didn't give a **** and probably haven't for a long time!

To which I haven't received a reply!

I'm feeling a bit better but will need to say good night for now. I'll be back tomorrow. Thank you all again for talking with me.

Thanks Jabber! It is important for every woman to refill her energy tank everyday! You deserve it and no guilt allowed! That was the hardest thing for me to learn when I first became a single mom. I felt guilty if I took time for myself. I felt I was taking time away from my children, but I realized by taking time for me I was really investing in them. I had more patience and more energy.
Everyone was happier!

(((Expat)))...Oh, sweetie.....you can NOT take on any blame for not standing up to him during his "cruel" spells. Matter of fact, NO ONE can or should try to stand up to abuse. I don't know your whole story, but I got a divorce after 31 years of verbal abuse (some physical); it wasn't until I read; The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans that I found out what was happening to me. That book should be required reading for everyone on the planet. 1 in 3 women are bing abused; I am the moderator of an abused survivors' group.

Knowing the difference between our stuff and their stuff is a major key. abuse is a CHOICE. Always a choice; if it were not, they would disrespect, abuse other people; abuse is usually done in private.

Have you thought about getting into some counseling?

I am available to talk to if you would ever like to (wacalice@aol.com)

Those people who told you you needed to stand up to him.....they are wrong. They don't understand. An abuser (which he sounds like) does not care what you think or say, so you are wasting your time. you can NOT defend yourself against an abuser.

All you can do when you hear cruelty and abuse.....is remove yourself from that toxicity.

I know about wanting "ever after"----Talk about feeling betrayed......

My hugs and love and prayers go out to you dear new sister.

Love, Alice

P.S. (Expat))): Do NOT, I repeat DO NOT try to figure his behavior out.....you will spend all of your time doing that and NEVER be able to understand it. You are living in 2 realities.....he isn't in the one you are in.

you will go crazy trying to figure him out. I know; I spent THIRTY-SIX years trying to understand the ex. Then I got it!! He was/is narcissistic, personality disordered, and I spent all of that time trying to figure his behavior out. No one can do that

So then I disengaged; what a relief to stop thinking about HIM, and making plans to escape the abuse.

We cannot understand them, because we are NOT like them. They aren't feeling the anguish and pain that we are.

Sending Love and Hugs, Alice

THANK YOU, Alice, for these words for Expat. I've known her a LONG time and she needs to here all of this!

Beating ourselves up is NOT going to make us heal. We'll just hurt from new abuse!

Expat.....read the above from Alice again and again. Then take heed!!

Amen!