I put my foot down. My soon to be 21 nephew is a bum. He dropped out of HS, loses jobs, wrecks cars, sleeps around, lies, spent his trust fund in 3 mths w/ nothing to show (about $20K plus $3-$4K savings bonds), drugs, smokes, foul mouthed, good for nothing you know what! I've 'hired' him to help me out with house chores, i.e., lawn, repairs, etc. Yet, he does a half-hearted job and curses throughout the entire ordeal. My parents (mother and step-father) have urged me to 'hire' him for this and that whenever he's between jobs, yet it always causes an argument and I'm the one at fault, not his sorry butt.

He lives with some gal with kids in the boon docks - not certain if he's working. Has been a 'person of interest' by the GA & SC police. Spent 100+ days in jail b/d he did not have $ to pay speeding tickets. Gawd, got some other gal pregnant and she does not want him in her life - my mother spend hundreds on clothes for her and the baby (no parternity test, so not certain if actually his or not).

My parents get suckered into everything he says. Even though he's stolen money, phones, hocked their possessions, etc. They cater to his whims.

I hate this. And I'm the bad guy (gal). No, his rearing was not that great. His mother (my sister) has 4 children by 4 different men. Until about 2 years ago she's never held a steady job (she's 39). She's been off/on drugs (even begged me for $10,000 for drugs and then blamed me for gawd knows what and my family held it against me!). She and her son can do no wrong.

I put my foot down. They do not reciprocate any appreciation. They are leeches. Blood or not, they are out of my will and I refuse to give them Christmas or Birthday gifts/money. My parents will hold this against me, yet enough is enough. My sister, nephew and parents make fun of me, whatever I do is wrong or stupid. At family gatherings, they mock me.

I'm the one who was at the hospital when step-father admitted several times this year for congested heart failure. I'm the one who fretted. My nephew visited maybe 2X and muttered under his breath with foul language. My sister was a no show. But, I was never thanked. My parents thanked their neighbors and gossiped about me to them.

I do what I think is right, and this is right. I know it, I feel it, yet why do I question myself?

(I just need a little support, if ya'll don't mind b/c of the above I find myself questioning my reasons - which I know are right, yet my family is so very selfish about this).

I support you. If you feel you should place a little distance between yourself and these family members for whatever time you need, from what you have described you are more than right to do so...

MustangGal, there's only so much you can do, and it sounds like you've done more than enough. It's time to live your OWN life and reduce your contact with your family - it seems that any interaction with them is causing you great distress.

I would recommend cutting all financial assistance, offers of work, etc to this kid and anyone else who has taken advantage of you. Then you need to sit down and make a list of what IS good in your life. Write about what makes you happy, and then try to move in that direction.

Your family will still contact you to complain, and yes, they will probably still gossip about you. But YOU know what is right and you need to hold your head up and get on with your life. The people they gossip to either are not your friends in the first place (so why do you care?) or they see the source of gossip and disregard it.

I'm sure it's very frustrating watching your parents continue on this path, but again, it's their life and their money and they can do what they please.

We're here - this whole group of women - and we support you!

K

People who "make fun of you" and mock you"
this is so sad that you have experienced this.


Do you feel you want to change this ?

Is there any member of your family to defend you
when this happens. ?

Mountain ash

Mustang, you are wise to cut your strings with the nephew. I think you're fortunate that he hasn't stolen form you yet, or done something harmful to you so he can support his drug habit. It's time to say no!

As far as they way you are treated by family, I think it's because they are jealous of you. You know right from wrong, and somehow, they don't. Their personalities sound destructive and negative, and who needs that? It's okay to begin distnacing yourself for the sake of your won sanity.

And I think there's nothing wrong with speaking your mind to them either. If they question you, share your thoughts and walk away. Often friends make better family. If I were you, I'd begin putting my efforts towards my friends who appreciate you. We alwyas need people in our lives, but they don't have to be family, especially if they're verbally abusive and drag you down.

Please feel the love and support of your fellow boomer women friends who know your heart and want it protected!

Dotsie, that was such a great response. I hope Mustang can follow your suggestions and start taking very good care of herself. A person cannot choose family, but can choose friends, and you are right that friends often don't have the same agenda that family has.

Mustang when someone adds noting but pain and misery to your life, it is time to kick them to the curb, family or not.

Being called family gives them NO reason to use you then mock you...

Remember always your dream of a place in the country for you and your loving, faithful animals. Thats what you need to think about when these leaches come a callin!!!!

Steer clear of the bunch of them, they are not worthy of your love.

The kid continues not to work nor look for work and has had his license revoked. Apparantly he is joining the Army on October 20th, he'll be 21 on the 28th. Hoping and praying he keeps his date with Uncle Sam. He needs to stop being a burden and become a contributor.

I'm sorry to hear of current situation between you and sis, you and parents. As for the nephew....he's just a nephew..not your son. Really you don't owe him anything except maybe distant civility at this time. (Do I sound brutal??)

One day hopefully of the 3, parents and sister, you will have better relationship. It might not happen for a few years yet.

My personal feeling is that your sister is probably feeling emotional pain, as a mother of a son who hasn't made the best of himself, but she hasn't recognized that in herself yet or at least, won't let you know.

Wishing you the right times to say right things you feel most strongly from your heart/head when you are alone with each your sister, mother and father.

It will happen one day with at least 1 of them.

Because it has happened to me...several times over.
No family is perfect..and the bigger the family, sometimes the more complex it can be.

But it's for your sister to tell you if she wishes to move beyond blaming you for-whatever-it-is-that-is-bugging-her-so-deeply.

Carry with your life apart and free now.

Mustang, I thing this is good news. Your comment about him no longer being a burden and becoming a contributor is right on. No one can feel good about themselves if they're aware that they're a burden. Hopefully this will help him feel better about himself which could be part of his problem.

Well, he is still a burden. He's on break from basic military training. Why the burden? Because his fiance is now living with my parents, financially supporting her (food, gas, vehicle, clothes, etc.). She does not have a job nor a high school education. She is 19 and may have her GED in January. They don't have time for me. Never really have. They take her to dinner, let her drive their vehicles, etc. I told them to ensure the nephew gives them money with his 1st military pay checks. They said its none of my business. Their right its not. But, they'll run themselves into the ground and make it my business and then come to me to get them out of the hole. I can't anymore.

They wanted me to sell my house and move in with them to share the expenses. In this economy, my house won't sale. And even if so, I'd have to rent a storage facility to store everything. Also, I have a dog and 2 cats. They have a dog, too. There's no way 2 dogs, 2 cats, and 4 people could live in 1300 sf 2 bedroom town house.

What is wrong with them? Argggghhh. I'm so upset. Was to meet family and have a big step-family dinner tonight. Now I'm not going b/c my mother and step-father are being hateful and vindictive on the phone. I won't tolerate it. I hate being controlled and lied to. If it weren't for the economy, I'd move across country!

I mean, these people subjected us to abusive folks as children, so we grew up expecting abuse. They only call when they need something and constantly degrade me in front of everyone.

Sorry, just had to vent this out!

Mustang, it doesn't sound as if you could live happily with your parents under the same roof. Hope you will be able to live independently of them. But perhaps at some point in life, especially if you don't know about your job status, the happy menagerie at your home might need to be reduced a tad, so you can continue to have your own place to live.

Wish you could have been invited to another party ..it is tough right now to attend a function with family members who aren't appreciative of you.

Mustangal,
I've watched your posts and you are a caring, intelligent woman.

kick these people out of your life. You are better, wayyy better than this. It sounds to me like you are held by guilt to them and it's getting old. Guilt should be felt for five min. and then it's too much time on it. This is what psychiatrists say, Five min. of guilt is too much.

The boy/ man is now the militaries problem, God help them, they get some of the worst of society now. You need to stop thinking he is your responsiblity in any way. Your sister did what she did and created what she did in a child and they say we get the children we deserve. The boy/man is a loser, and NOT your loser, he is your sister's loser.

I am blunt because I can't bear to read what is happening to you and I respect you on this forum.

Blast your parents!! No guilt, no more visits, no more phone calls, set them straight! Let them know you are not available anymore for their drama and get the drama out of your life.

Mustang gal, we get used to drama in our lives when we come from families like yours. It takes a strong will, a plan and a commitment to get out of the cycle of drama and negitivity. If you need help from a psychologist to stay strong in the face of all of these people, by all means, get one, that is what they are for! Make the big decision and change your life!

I know that the woman on this forum called Mustang Gal is capable of calling it a day with these negative people. YOU are better than this and it's a mess they made, not you!

Your life could be SO, SO much better!

Again, I respect you here, Mustang Gal, and I believe in you. Will you consider giving them up and getting support if you need it?

I pray your life improves and that you have strength to continue to do the right thing.

If you choose to make your own family of friends, you have the support of all who are here on the forum and I'm sure other friends who would help you.

Make a family of those who give as much as you do and life will be sweet.

I wish this punk luck in the military. They are taking even those with records, or "persons of interest," in the Army and trying to give them discipline, etc... You should wash your hands of him and let the military parent him, that's what they do.

The first words in boot camp: WE ARE YOUR FAMILY NOW!!!

He's in now. He's parented all over again.


good luck my friend.

Dancer

Oh MustangGal....I'm so sorry that your family is trying to manipulate you into joining them in their unhealthy enabling ...I know that it hurts but you have to know that their actions and feelings toward you are more from a place of illness in their own hearts/souls. You need to have balance from other sources of love and healing (like the wonderful women here)to armor you against their onslaughts.

I know how difficult it is for me to visit my family of origin even only once a year or so...I usually deal with depression for a day or two after being in that toxic environment. Blessings to you!

i am wondering what your ties are to these mean, abusive people. i know they are your family, but can you say more about why you are so tied to them and allow yourself to be abused by them?

i have also been in the position of being mocked by my family. sometimes a person who sees things and names them gets mocked (i know this is true in my case). my family doesn't want to hear what i think about what they are doing that may not be appropriate. don't know if that is true in your case or not.

sending you support from afar.

Thanks all you gals. I appreciate your support and constructiveness.

I've been disenvited from Christmas again. Same thing happened last year, yet was reinvited and treated horribly. My parents have told the grandkids, siblings, neighbors, friends, and other family members that I'm bi-polar. I discovered this some time ago when I heard one of my young nieces talking about it. This is why I'm not invited to gatherings or dinners!

Step-family reunion was a few months ago and my step-dad was upset I was attending and riding with them. Mom invited me, but the family did not want me there b/c of disagreements with nephew! Step-cousins would not acknowledge me! So, I just sat there, ate, and wished I'd brought a book.

Without going into that which was said today, yet I was lied to and carried out a favor/task for Mom, which went unappreciated and I was blamed for the messy kitchen. I did make the mess, why didn't nephew and his fiance clean up their messes? Anyways, Mom took it out on me - why didn't he run her errands rather than I having to alter my weekend? Oh, forgot, he gets to do whatever he wants.

So, my Mom and step-dad were being rude and vindictive on the phone and I played into it and did the same. Got so mad told them I'm returning their Christmas gift. Now, they are turning off my phone service. (I joined their family plan to save $45 month and paid step-dad 18 mths of service - $180 - upfront and have only been on the plan for 3 months, so I'm out $150 and need to buy another phone plan).

My mother is bi-polar and takes meds for such. Now, I'm the bad guy, the grinch who stoled Christmas. So there it is, tit for tat and according to them, its always my fault. My fault I was molested as a child and they never protected nor believed me, either. I've had this anger my entire life.

I need to stop playing into these traps and lies. Enough is enough (gosh, how many times have I said that?!). The things we do when emotion is involved.

I'd like to know what tactics/behaviors you gals have adopted for those of you that have encounted family abuse/conflicts? For instance, are others treated simarily or are you singled out?

Oh MustangGal...my heart so goes out to you! It truly does. Can't someone invent a magic wand that takes care of all this crap, blast it all! (Speaking of venting).

I believe, with all gentleness intended honey, that you know what you need to do...you said it very clearly in your post. The first step, in my opinion, is to pull yourself out and away from the situation. You're right, it is easy peezy to get pulled into the same behavior when emotion is involved, especially when there is a part of us hoping that each time it will be different.

So, what would it take for you to stop taking their calls, seeing them, being near them? It may be for a short time or a long time, I don't know. And it sounds like it is time!

What kind of support do you need? What things need to change so you can get away from the situation for whatever length of time is needed and get some clarity around what is BEST for you. You might want to start by making a list of all the connections and all your needs to see what you can ask for help with, what can/can't be done immediately, etc.

As harsh as it may sound in writing, you are the only one who can change you. They won't change, or they will, and it will be their choice.

You *get* to care for you the way you want to be cared for, gently, kindly, carefully and with great respect. And only you can make the choice to take yourself out of harm's way.

I know $150 is a lot of money, believe me I do! And it sounds like it may be a great investment to get yourself out of that plan and reduce the "hold" this unwell person has on you. Make sense?

If I can be of service, please let me know. And I want you to know I get that it isn't easy and don't mean to sound like it is!

MustangGal...I was definitely singled out by both mom and step-dad..when I lived in the home with them...but in later years, my mother's hate-full words were lavished on almost everyone at different times.

Really, the only thing that saved me was to leave the area in the early 70's and never live back around them. The craziness with and among them worsened over the years and continues to this day.

I never regreted moving away from my "family of origin" and raising my children away from them. When my children were younger and we visited...they thought they saw an easier life there...as the folks are wealthy and all my siblings had a home given to them among other things...but believe me...one's soul was sold in the process...now as my children are older, they have come to understand and appreciate my wisdom in moving away.

I know that leaving is not an option for everyone but it was the only effective one for me.

Mama Red, I should have been nicer to my mother and not have reacted to her vindictiveness. I'm an angry person b/c of what they did and continue to treat me. There was not show of affecting during my childhood, my mother slapped me and when she did not want to punish me, she would have my biological father administer the punishment (belt, called names -- like stupid, dummy, dog, idiot --, kicked in the butt and forced on my knees, slapped with his palm, and backhanded). I was even choked and raised off the floor by my father and backed shoved into a wall for a falsehood my step-mother stated.

Enough of that. I always feel guilty for not being enough and find myself repeating behaviors. For instance, for many years I've thought gossip was an acceptable form of communication. Why? Because thats what my mother, step-mother, and siblings did about me and others. I thought this was OK. Its not.

Mama Red, good idea in that I need to create a well thought list to separate myself from the above mentioned.

I need to pony-up and stop slipping out of the saddle when I think a little bit of love will be exhibited by my parents, only to discover its another manipulative game. Also, I need to curb my anger which is based upon past abuse.

I need to turn the page, and I'm not very good at it.

Mustang sweetie, Love and care for yourself anf the animals who adore you unconditionally. Your parents (sorry) but they sound like people to distance yourself from.

This very year I have myself come to the realization that sometimes its better to be alone than with people (especially relatives)who abuse you in any fashion. Afte awhile you become filled with inner peace and comfort in your surroundings. Gods blessings.

Hi honey

Living through the aftermath of abuse sucks...big time, no ifs ands or buts. What you went through isn't right, or fair, or kind or any of those things.

AND, I know for a fact you deserve better than you're receiving and that this is the best they can or they would do better. AND, this is a big AND, you don't have to continue suffering for it.

Baby steps, sweet one, baby steps. I've read of the care and love you give your animals and that is what you get to lavish on yourself. It is sooooooooo easy to say and often soooooo hard to do. So, if needs be, think about how you would treat an animal, maybe your beloved horse, if they had been treated as you are being treated. I may be mis-remembering and wasnt't it you who got your horse out of a situation where he/she was being mistreated?

Even if not, it is still a good example.

Write the list and take one action...one is a start sweet one, one is a start. And, if you would consider it, cut yourself some slack (gee, this is becoming a theme for me...grin) and focus on the things you have, and are, doing!

As for the anger, I've found suppressing it or saying it is bad/wrong doesn't do much in the way of an outlet for it. As long as you feel it, it needs a way to be released. And maybe you could find a constructive way to let it out...my DH actually set up a box in the garage with old glassware and got me a pair of goggles to wear so I could let out the anger/rage without hurting myself or anyone else. I was touched, even though I didn't go that route. I needed a verbal outlet for me and so found a place to scream and yell and throw things, even tho' they weren't breakables.

Without an outlet for the anger, done, sometimes, until you're so drained you think you'll never move again, you don't tend to be able to move to the next step.

One course I was in set it up so we could have a good primal scream. I was so inhibited and threatened by my own anger and fear of it that I was unable, at first, to even participate. It was a pillow/chair exercise where you put a pillow on the chair and beat it as if it was something/someone you were made it. As I said, it took a bit before I could let loose enough to do anything...I was taught anger was wrong, destructive and unladylike.

Later on, I returned to the course as a volunteer and helped others walk through the exercise. One precious soul had been horribly abused...hearing his words tore at my heart so deeply...and I stayed with him as he went through the rage and pain...and when he was done for the night(although I have no doubt he found more later), he was a limp rag, worn and frazzled and ready to find something else.

I don't have a counseling degree nor am I a therapist, so I don't want to be recommending anything that could hurt you in any way. I'm sure others here have more knowledge around this topic. AND I believe it is important to acknowledge and honor the anger in some way shape or form...and that it is vital it be done so it doesn't hurt you or anyone else. There has been enough of that and I have no doubt, from your posts, that you have no wish to continue the tradition you came from.

And please, sweetie, please know it is normal to want to have the love of your family. This is the gift you bring to the world...by choosing to stop the way you are being treated, you are choosing that it stop with you!

One step at a time, one page at a time.
With all my love...MamaRed

I just talked to my step-dad, and he lied again. Says he has operation tomorrow and does not know why I did not offer any emotional support. No on told me! He said, yes we did. No, I replied, no on said anything me. This is a constant. My mother will not change and her husband chooses to believe her. They are both not very physically healthy and have chosen to live a life of gluttony and have chosen to blow their money as they saw fit. Yes, they have helped me in the past, yet also held it against me. They think they're doing the right thing. Ya da ya da yada, I could go on. They won't change and I can't make them. I told them today that by their actions I see that I'm not wanted - they said otherwise but offered to love nor support. Its the truth. If any of the other kids call, my parents will do whatever is necessary. But, not for me. Why have they chosen to treat me so horribly? Its their choice, they consciously make decisions to lie and abuse with vindictiveness and then deny it ever happened and say I'm crazy. They tell folks I'm bi-polar. Am I responsible (physically and financially) to care for my mother should my step-father pass away? My mother asks why I'm so hateful. I told her that she set the example, I treat her the way she treats me. I told them I will drop of the Christmas gifts and want nothing else to do with them. Its so lonely.

Hi MG...I'm soooooooooo sorry you're going through this...holidays can be a tough time at the best of times, let alone with all this s**t!

I know you're lonely and hurt and I wish I could take it all away for you. And please remember this: they are responsible for themselves, you are responsible for you. You GET to make your choice and let them say what they will say. It has been my experience that the more I try to "convince" someone who carries these words and thoughts, the more they will use it against me.

If you need to talk, vent, cry, whatever, let me know and I'm there!

Mustang Gal,
I'm sorry about Christmas but it seems it is NOT the place to feel all warm and cuddley!

You are right: "Enough is enough."

Bless you, my dear.
And to he** with them.

Dancer

Mustang, you need to realize that "people treat us the way we allow them to treat us." Think about that, it is so true. I am guilty of allowing that too. I have stopped it, nipped it in the bud so to speak. I may be alone without some of my family but I am sick and tired of being walked on as you must be. Either treat us the way we treat you, with kindness and respect, or hit the road Jack!!! Besides we, your cyber sisters all love you dearly.

Thanks ya'll! Dropped off the Christmas presents yesterday and was asked to drive to Georgia with them -- but explained that I was purposely not invited and too late to change my plans. Also, Mom said she wanted to talk to me, yet neighbor came over and they began a conversation so I said "gotta go". Typical, where all others come before her eldest daughter.

Took my mother a week to thank me for my present to them. It was an "oh, by the way, thanks."

Tonight my parents and siblings are celebrating joint birthdays, I was the last to know and had other plans. They've been planning this for weeks and as usual I'm the last to know. My step-dad called to invite me. I am so angry. I have so much hate towards them.

Abusive parents. Greedy, selfish siblings. Child molesting uncles. Abusive grandparents. And yet, they are all pillars of their communities. I'm tired of it.

Told my step-dad to never contact me again. I'll stay in my county and they can stay in their county. I'm tired of being the last to know and rarely included. Their actions speak for themselves. He said, not don't act like that, don't say that, its not true. But it is.

I have no words to express how I feel. Except, that I'm alone and have been since I was molested as a child. I'm fearful of everything and have very little love left. I have hatred against the world and life. It really hurts to be born and abused since childhood. Why didn't they just give me up? Why continue the verbal and physical abuse. I was a child and kicked and slapped. Raped and did not know what it was in kindergarten and early grade school. I didn't know. It was not my fault.

It is so easy for an abuser/liar to deny the harm they've caused. But, it leaves the innocent angry and this is how the abuse cycle continues, too.

I am not a complete person because of their abuse. I don't trust, always questioning and doubting.

I just don't know what else to say. I'm empty. Void.

Mustang, I realized something not to long ago and thats that we are alone. Really alone when it comes to others having our backs. I use to believe in that and have had many of my friends, familys backs over the years, BUT when push came to shove recently, I learned it's nothing more than a myth invented in my own mind. Kind of like, we will be your friend so long as there is no chance of any danger coming our way.
HARD LESSON!!!! But a good one.

Mustang gal, I'm so sorry for the abuse in your childhood. I wanted you to know that you are not alone. I, too, was an abused child.

There is help. I had 12 years of therapy and finally graduated into a whole person with a life and those who I love and love me. You CAN fill your world with loving people. You CAN make a family that is caring and there for you and who will love you.

You CAN get rid of the pain and the hate. I know it's big and overwhelming and you don't have to forgive your abusers but you can save you OWN life and make it happy.

The journey though our lives as children when we are adults is not an easy one but it is worth it as we re-parent ourselves with love and caring. We give ourselves unconditional love and heal.

I feel for you and your post brought a tear to my eye. I remember feeling like you do. It was years ago but I'll never forget it.

We can't pick our family but we can when we are adults and we can choose to spend time on ourselves and our happiness.

Please feel free to PM me at any time about anything. I'm sure we suffered some of the same things.

Know that you are not alone. Know you can fix your anger and pain and know that there is always help out there for you.

Warmest regards,
Dancer9

Mustang, you have been holding this in for a long time, and I think it has come to a head, so to speak. I'm so sorry for the pain you have endured, and are still going through. I'm sorry I missed this thread, although I know we have "talked" before. These last few months have been a crisis situation for you. You asked in one of your posts how others deal with conflicts in the family. I've disengaged from my family several times, when I could no longer take being the scapegoat. I stood my truth by myself, while the abuser continued to live his life as a "family man." I stood alone until I no longer felt alone, because I found myself. It's possible. You are not alone. And that void can be filled with love. It may not come from them because they sound incapable of giving and receiving love. It's them, not you. You already know what is good and right for you (given the example that you know it is wrong to gossip.) It sounds like your mother can not deal with her own mental illness (bi-polar) so she projects it on to you to deflect it from herself? Much love and light to you, Lynn

Mustang, I haven't been through what you have but my heart is with you.

You won't find love from your family, only pain. By waiting for their love and approval, you put your life on hold because love will never come from them.

Move forward, and move them out of your life. You deserve so much better.

sorry i missed this chat as i though it was about something else. Id agree with everything dancer and princess wrote to you in last two post.

in response to asking are you the onlie one t be treated like this in adulthood mamma red said

"easy peezy to get pulled into the same behavior when emotion is involved, especially when there is a part of us hoping that each time it will be different".

its the last bit keep hoping that it be diffrent AND trying to get loved from someone who can't wont show us loveing behaviour.

your an adult now and as much as you had no choice as a child you do now. Stop letting them hurt you the way you do, the situasion won't change nor will they untill much much work is done (if ever)and i say that with as much gentilness as i can

however you change it now for yourself.

iv fisicallie removed myself from strange behaving familie and won't call, if the odd occasion tehy call me (like want something or to vent gossip about other familie members) i tell them plz stop becouse if you don't i am putting phone dowen on them. If they continue i say i hanging up now goodbye and then i hang up.

it stops it for good, lol well 6 mounths then they call again and i go through the same thing all over again. I have 6 mounths peace a week of worry or annoyince but i still stick to my guns.

I think you put it like saddling up....and not slidding out the sadle. Sounds like youve started but renaged 0n yourself before. Do the same thing again but do not renage.

and yep it will be lonlie and still hurt despite the abuse but you will fill that with more worthwhile things if your luckie and the pain dose stop.

whish you the best from deepest part of my hart.

I remember something one of my counselors said, that the family as a unit will do anything to maintain the "homostasis" I think that was his word, like status quo. When ever one member of the unit tries to withdraw or change, the rest (of the family) will move heaven and earth to get back to the status quo. To them, the destructive behaviors is their status quo. The counselor said you (I) had to drop the ball in terms of the ongoing volley: I remove, they bring me back, I remove, they bring me back...Let them worry about their status quo, and recognize that they are not going to change. The problem arises when a true crisis (as opposed to a dramatized version of nothing important) when a true crisis arises, like in my case Mom with ALZ & cancer, and the family HAS to pull together for her sake. At least I learned some boundaries, and ways to drop the ball, but I still get drawn in. It's really really hard to release from the shackles of destructive family units.

Like Celtic, I thought the topic was about singles, and I've missed this discussion.
Mustang, my heart goes out to you. Please know that in so many families there is disharmony. I'm going through that abit myself. I have come to discover, that true happiness comes from within, - and not from the outside.
And the kind of people I like the most, follow this philosophy:

Ladies, thank all of you for your support and honesty. I'll be re-reading all your posts for a good bit.

EW, great quote. Love it.

Mustang, I'll be praying that you surround yourself with people who will "be kind" to you, and don't worry if they aren't family. If you are in the company of people who love you, who cares whether or not they are blood relatives.

It breaks my heart to learn how your family has treated you in the past, and continue to treat you. I can tell how painful it is for you and I wish I could take that pain away.

Mustang, I have no experiences in my life that are as painful as those you have endured. Working with children for 20 years, I know the long term damage that is caused by abuse in it's many forms. What happened to you is the worst. I am so sorry that you have lived with this for so long.

I hope that you can find a way to move forward and love again - to love yourself first and foremost.

My heart is with you. I am sending you strength to fill up some of your void.

Like some others, I had no idea this discussion was going on until today. I'm so sorry MustangGal, for all that you've had to go through over the past few months, but especially over the holiday season. My heart aches for you and I wish I had more wisdom/consolation to offer. I didn't suffer the same extent of abuse as you, mine was ongoing verbal/psychological throughout my life. It really does suck you in to dark places that are difficult to climb out of, especially when those who abuse cannot change their habits of pushing you back down as soon as they see any sign of autonomy or triumph on your part.

I did have to distance myself from my family at one point. In time I realized some of the "why" of the abuse, and in my case, it was only one person, which helped me to rediscover the rest of my family and restore relationships over the years. But I was never able to establish and maintain boundaries where my Mom was concerned...even though time after time she would betray any trust by pushing those same old buttons over and over and over again. I never did learn how to turn myself off from being a target for her. I don't know how or where we get whatever it is we need to be able to do that. But whatever it is and wherever it comes from, that's what I would wish for you. The strength, the inner sense of boundaries, the knowledge that you deserve abundant love and kindness, not this abuse and diminishing of your soul.

You are in my heart and prayers. I hope and pray that everything you need is provided through other people and resources in your life. Know that you are loved beyond your wildest imagination.

BTW, I just thought of something else. Have you ever investigated the concept of "scapegoating"? It's a very interesting phenomenon, and worth reading about. It helped me to understand my own situation much better. It doesn't "fix" anything, but I always think that knowledge is power...knowing the signs and psychology of scapegoating gave me power to put it into a perspective that was not as self-detrimental, because it really is ALL about "them" not about you or me. But as children, we are always inclined to explain inexplicable things to our own detriment. As adults, we can change that inclination and even undo the damage that we've done in blaming ourselves throughout our lives...but in order to do that, we need to arm ourselves with self-love, compassion for who we really are underneath all those lies, and knowledge.

Mustang,
Didn't see this 'til today, either. I had to turn away from
family recently, as well. You need to take care of yourself,
first. If you don't, nobody else will. What Chatty said about
no one having anyone's back; IMO is true. What Divine Ms. M said about love not coming from that family, I agree with. I don't know why people can't be kind. But I'm sorry you've been hurt and have gone through such garbage. All I can say, "Been there. Done that." And it hurts. I'm so grateful to Dotsie for starting this site. Because you and me and others can come here and vent. It is such a great release for the soul. Prayers and blessings, Mustang. Take care of you!

YOu have a life ahead of you rich with possibilities of friendships that give the love and support that your parents can't give now. Continue on that path now.

Wow...Mustang...what an ordeal and what a life you've had to endure. First, I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I was molested from the time I was 12 until I was 18...didn't talk about it or go to therapy until I was in my late 30's...I went to an incest group and found out so much about myself and got the help I needed.
In my therapy, there's a place that sounds like where you're at now...the little girl who was betrayed by the ones who were supposed to love you still looking for approval and acceptance and inclusion. But, honey, you have to realize that your family have their own huge set of problems and a lot of that is to place blame on the one they've done this to all your life...you. YOU are the one who has to make the change for yourself and the first thing I would do...if I were you...is to find a really good incest counselor/group. Not just a regular counselor...but one that specializes in incest. That's important. I can hear your desperation and you have so much poison within you that it sounds like it's finally festered to the surface and is bursting to get out...I can hear it in your words. You need major outside support right now in how to deal with your feelings and not anyone else's. Your counselor should be able to help you work through things as you tell him/her about them....but, until you allow this little girl inside you to get everything out to a counselor, she's never going to stop believing the things these people are telling you and she's never going to stop trying to find approval from people who probably never will be able to give it.
What you may not realize fully yet is that the answers are all within you. The approval of yourself has to come from within you. And the acceptance of yourself...and all that entails...has to come from within yourself. It's all there...it's just all hidden by your life and how you were/continue to be treated.
It's easy to say you've got to stop letting people treat you this way, but when that's all you know and it sounds to me you've got some doozies who are experts at guilt and manipulation...it's tough. You aren't going to do this alone...I hope you'll be able to get some counseling and start working on what's important...and that is you...wonderful, sweet Mustang.
But, for now please do me a favor. Put your arms around yourself and the little girl I know is inside you and squeeze really, really hard. Tell her you love her...tell her you're worthy...tell her you will find a way for her to get out and be free of all this. Then tomorrow find someone you can talk to that's a professional. I speak from experience. It was the best thing I ever did and just dealing with the incest alone will make such a difference in you. If you can work on that, you will be amazed at how much inner strength you will discover and will surface. You're tougher than you think sweetie...I know...the little girl in me was found, was validated by no one else but myself and you know what?...that was enough. That's all that's ever enough when it comes down to it. We are all we have...so, I hope you'll think about this and begin to change your life by getting help for that little girl first...we love you here and you are important to us.

Mustang,
Dee has given excellent advice. I feel connected here because so many of you have been through childhood abuse. What happened to me couldn't really be called incest, because the abuser was an honorary "uncle." But writing about the ordeal was a release, even if it was in abstract format. And what Dee advises is golden: Get it on the outside. Release all that pain, which has been poisoning your emotions. Prayers and blessings...

Dee, I was shocked to read that you had this happen to you too. This is crazy. I had no idea that molestation and abuse is so common. Just look at the statistics in this forum! Although I have never been through what you ladies have gone through, it makes me wonder about how sick a male sex drive can be. What is with these men? What is wrong with them? And I ask myself what do they do to be able to keep the little girls mum as to what is going on.

AND I don't understand how on earth a mother can's sense that something is very wrong? It's terrible.

Jabber...you're as much a victim as the rest of us who went through sexual abuse...An 'honorary' Uncle was a person who should have protected you...not abuse you. It counts...they all count, sweetheart.
Edelweiss...my dad was in complete control...of everyone and everything, especially his wife and daughters. His controlling tactic was fear, strictness, punishment and humiliation. I was twelve years old waiting for my step-mom to come out of the bathroom when it started (that I remember). I was leaning against the wall day dreaming about something...my dad walked in, came over to me, pressed himself against my body and kissed me, forcing his tongue into my mouth...I felt something hard against my body but didn't, at the time, know what it was. In that moment I went from a relatively normal little girl (normal to me, anyway) to what would be the start of a train wreck called my life until I started getting help many, many years later.
When this started, I just knew I could never say anything because of how he controlled every other aspect of my life and because I didn't know I could tell anyone because I didn't comprehend truly what was happening. My dad could send me to hell with just one look and it was that look that helped keep me silent. I was too afraid. He'd shaped my whole life through control and when a child never has a voice about anything, we remain silent.

E.W., Most of these sicko abusers pick out the quieter child, one that would and is easier to frighten or convince his abuse is a loving thing. Fathers use that one. I wish I knew who my abuser was, I haven't a clue. I remember he had dark, hairy arms and I was always attracted to that later in life, was I sick? Maybe! I was aldeady damaged by then.

When I was 15 my family and I moved back to Indiana from California, my mom was expecting and hated being so far from her family. We had to stay at my Aunts house until we found a place and I slept on the couch in the den. I woke up one night feeling strange and as I opened my eyes there stood my Aunts husband looking down at me. He had pulled my cover down to reveal my panties and t-shirt.

NOTE:

This is the Uncle everyone called Uncle Friendly and he had tried to molest every female in our family from my Aunts sisters on down, and had been caught BUT no one ever said a word except to him because they/we all loved my Aunt, his wife so, that no one wanted to hurt her. She was a devout Christian woman who adored him and her children.

Anyway he sat on the edge of the couch and when he tried to fondle my breasts I politely reached down and gave his 'boys' such a sqeeze, he fell onto the floor writhing in pain. I said now get the hell out of here you ugly old fart. He never tried anything again, not with me anyway.

On, the Dr. Phil show some expert he had on said, that 1 in every 2 female children are molested by relatives usually before the age on 2. And with the economy and jobs and stress growing in this country, look for molestations to escalate.

Sex isn't love in these instances, its POWER, and some of these men will have lost 'all' of their power to the situation of the nation.

This is no where near as horrendous as what many of you have gone through, but for the sake of showing how prevalent molestation may be, let me share this story.

In the mid 60's, I was in middle school where my grandfather happened to be the principal. And English teacher there, who was highly thought of and revered in the community, was a dirty old man. Whenever he would talk with one of the girls in the class, he would put his hand on her knee, and then gently let it creep up closer and closer.

I told my grandfather that he had done this to me. he was incredulous. I told my folks, and they were dumbfounded, too. This behavior never occured again in the class that I attended, but I doubt that he stopped in other classes.

"Immie" retired after that year. My grandfather died the next year, and I never did find out if anything more. I know he was talked to, because he stopped. I suspect he was encouraged to retire.

Ya'll, I'm sorry that some of us share these experiences. Its true that these monsters choose the weaker child to harm. In my case, my parents were separated and my sister and I lived w/ our paternal grandparents in Oklahoma. I had to share a room w/ my uncles and my sister slept on a cot in my grandparent's room. I did not understand, and still don't. Given that it was a small 3-bed, one bath (tub only) house with 6 (7 when dad came home on weekends) individuals -- one would think the adults knew what was happening. While my parents were mad at each other, us girls were scared to silence (another key word and fear inhibitor we share). Many molested children do not have a champion and support system, nor anyone to confront the molester.

I believe this is another reason why I was attracted to abusive types. Why my sister has 4 children by 4 men. From an early age we thougth sex was dirty and we deserved to be treated as dirt.

I've read your "stories" and I am so sorry that so many of you have endured abuse of any kind. The statistics are 1 in 3 women will be molested by the time they are age 18, and 1 in 4 men. Those are numbers that are reported. Imagine the increase in numbers if all that experienced abuse had reported. That does not happen because the perpetrators scare the victims into silence. Sometimes the threats do as much harm as the acts. And incest and sexual abuse is not something that just happens, like a random accident on the street. The perpetrators use power and control and manipulation and deception to target their victims. Abuse of any kind ruins lives, for we never know how our human potential might have been met if we had been left to our own normal development. Of course, we become "attracted" to that which is familiar. Sometimes we unconsciously recreate a scenario, with the underlying intent of taking control. So many are hurting for a lifetime, or their lives are cut short. So sad

I'm abit shocked by the frequency of childhood sexual abuse just occurring in this tiny group of women.

Perhaps this is verging on abuse but my mother was there to champion/defend me. When I was teenager I had to see a dermatologist about my severe acne problem on..my face. yet the dermatologist asked that I removed my blouse and I was just wearing my bra. He wanted to check if i was growing armpit hair ..sign of maturing girl??? My mother was there in the same doctor's rm. as I and when she saw this, her facial expression turned to outrage,doctor saw her facial expression and the doctor asked me to put on my blouse.

After the dermatology appointment, my mother raged with bewilderment why on earth he did what he did. She was furious and told my father. I think I did see the dermatologist again but he never asked to unclothe my top.

YOu have got to realize this is the same mother who cannot speak English and who right now is tough for me to deal with because she just is critical.

She is also a woman with a fiery temper but redirected in the right way, with her limited English, she has proven to defend her children if her heart/head instincts tell her right. It is most likely my somewhat strong communication style...I inherited from my mother. She is a mother who yelled at her children at times. But as I said, she can redirect that fury/energy onto someone else to defend her own children.

This is one example I give, that a mother if she is strong in herself, she will do anything to protect her child from abuse.

My parents were strict,..because of newspaper stories of incest, child abuse..they didn't allow us, while we were children and teenagers to sleep over at other people's homes.

I kid you not. That is how much we were (overly) protected.

thanks for figures princess.

its 1 in 4 in the uk for adult women experinseing rape and sexule abuse.

whats wrong with our culture that this happens.

dose anyone know of a culture weer child/adult rape abuse dose't happen as apposed to not being reported on?

Chatty is right. Men go after the meek, mild tempered kids, youngsters already suffering. Those men around my childhood home
knew I was abandoned. I was little and they were big. And so they
inflicted pain atop heartache; guess that made 'em feel more powerful than ever.

This I am grateful for. All of us who have shared here, can thank Dotsie for providing this forum, where we can empty out.
I find it so healing and such a release, just to empty out from time to time.

I remember Joyce Meyer saying she was doing a seminar in a foreign country; and she was talking about sex abuse. She said
women 70 years old and older were coming forward with tears
streaming down their faces. The auditorium was filled abused
women walking forward for prayer. This sex abuse thing is a
world wide issue!

Ladies, to help with the discussion, Dotsie would like for you to be able to hear this teleseminar given by our own Lynn Tolson for the NABBW.

Sexual Assault: A Silent Epidemic with Tragic Consequences

Thanks for posting the link JJ. I hope everyone will take the time to listen. Lynn did a fabulous job addressing this topic personally and professionally. Go Lynn.

It was also her idea to add this link for all who are suffering or have suffered in the past.

Great idea Lynn. Thank you.

I shouldn't have to own this book:

Nobody should. It should never have had to be written.

It's not just fear that keep children silent, but the terribly conflicting fact that these children love their fathers. It is confusing. And it does ruin lives. You can go on, live, be happy, but nothing will ever take that abuse away.

My heartfelt hugs to all the women here who have experienced sexual abuse. Sadly, there are many of us (and men) in the world.

Who is Joyce Meyer? I hope the repeat of Dotsie's teleseminar is helpful in putting puzzle pieces together. Orchid, the dermatologist could have just asked about your maturing process. He was totally inappropriate. Wow, my mom would have questioned it to herself, but she would not disobey a doctor. We were of such Italian patriarchal culture that a woman did not dare question a man who was in some position of "authority." I don't recall learning of societies without child abuse. Good question. My mother and grandmother were protective, but they could not protect one from another in the same family! As for older women telling their stories (for lack of a better word) if you go on myspace, you will see pages of victims/survivors/supporters of all kinds of abuse, including incest. What is happening is that the younger generation has the means in which to tell. In our generation, there was no one to tell, no way to tell. We could never be anonymous in telling, even in Confession. And the consequenses to perpetrator in our generation were so minimal, like early retirement. One of my uncles was a city councilman. Talk about sleep overs. When I was 12, I was sleeping over with my cousin (his daughter)and in the middle of the night he came into the room and molested her. Only I did not know that is what the experience was called. I only know that I was scared to death. I thought, oh no, not me, not him, not here. Next couple of years, he was caught with other children, it was in the newspaper, yet his only consequence was to "step down." All 3 of his children are so messed up it isn't even possible to know where to start. So, although it is not always pleasant to talk about this topic, know that molestation is not to be minimized. It is a totally damaging experience, and even changes our brain chemistry and pathways. I am glad that you find this place a safe place to share what can't be held in, lest it drive you crazy. L, PL

Mij, you're right, you shouldn't have to own that book. However, it looks like there is a truth that has to be owned up to in order for the healing to begin/continue. You are courageous to recognize that truth. Sadly, I am not a "believer" in ideal, blissful, total and complete healing. I wish I could be proved wrong... I'd like to know what complete healing looks and feels like. I think that survivors can learn to be as fully-functioning as possible, and that means a different way for each one. Some are functioning if they get out of bed in the morning. I wonder often who I might have been had I not had those experiences. In my case, it was not so much that I was the weaker one. It was that I was the brighter one, the lighter brighter little being, and my brother wanted to snuff out my light, as did my father. Don't they say that vampires or is it devils that can't stand the light? Well, I don't want to steer this thread off into a direction not intended. This is a discussion that pertains to so, so many that it is sad, sad, sad.

i am still listening to your teleseminare, so your right thanks is perhapps to be given to lynn for telling her storie and for you all thinking to post it heer.

I am still listening and typing but might not make it to the end tonight as its 4 .30 am

i just like to say well done for rembering and thinking it imp[ortan enough to mention that sexule abuse dose still happen within male or female with same sex partners, same as violense etc.

i still listening so i sure i have a few more questions when (now or tommorow when i get to finishe listwening)


just one qustion lynn, you commented on mijj belife and your counter belife in total healng....your quote... "Sadly, I am not a "believer" in ideal, blissful, total and complete healing. I wish I could be proved wrong... I'd like to know what complete healing looks and feels like. I think that survivors can learn to be as fully-functioning as possible, and that means a different way for each one"

i take the point that for some getting up in the nmorning is functioning at thir best. Ise't this a station on a very long rail journay or do you mean its as good as it gets for that person? (have i understood you correctie heer or reprisenting you right?)

why ise't total recovery possible for all people? in your oppinion?

IMO I think it could be possible for all people i just wonderring why you think its not and what is getting in their way?

I am just worrieing somewhat that your perhapps giving up on the person by not seeing them (all) as being capable for being totalie functioning to coin a phraze (whatever total functioning is)

what is healing or being healed in your oppinion? indivduel diffrense aside what is the "best" example of healing youv experinsed either personalie or have witnessed, whats it look like for you?

Hi CF, I'll have to think about your question, ok? Thanks for asking, and for listening to the seminar.

I don't think a person totally heals from childhood abuse.
But I do think it helps to release the miserable events
from within: I call it emptying out and/or releasing pain.
Some things you learn to live with. And some things you never
get over. There are flashbacks. Word associations bring
events forefront in the mind. You're easily hurt. You're super
sensitive, in some areas. But sharing with those who have been
through similar circumstances, seems to help ease the pressure
of the pain, which builds up with time. It's like any wound,
if poisonous toxins are NOT released, it just festers and gets worse. Ease the pressure and at least you get some relief.

I haven't had time to listen to that "Assault" video but I will!

jabber do you think perhapps a person might reach a plato of healing, weer life's not too out of the ordinary, no strong assosiations or flashbacks or even giving the abuse much thought or thinking . Certinly after threrapie, time and healing.

what do you see it as being as good as it can get for some people?

i just wonder as most all of us are sensitised and have triggers to something or other. Would you think it possible to get to point that any emotional or mental responses isre't that far away from any other average lady on the street?

i get torn over the diffrering views and the implicasions behid those views.

a you never fullie heal, therfore thers gonna be damage for a lifetime verses a managable normal response to life and lifes situasions.
b total healing or normale functioning life being somehow interpreted well it could't been all that bad anyhow?

the infrense from either extreem never helpfull but could their be a balance or mid point avavable for most people?

just wonderring

My mother is and was like a bulldog towards anyone even thinking of bothering any of her kids and yet she had no clue and now refuses to believe me about an abuser. I ask her about it and she says I just have an active imagination.

The mother is usually the last to know if they ever know. Don't think they are stupid because they are not, they just can't imagine this happening to their child and won't believe it easily.

In my mothers case, her feelings may be because my Aunt, mothers older sister, was attacked in her own home by an old friend of her fathers, my grandfather. My grandfather could barely speak English back then. My Aunt was 7 and mom was 5 when this pig in sheeps clothing came into the home and tried to molest my Aunt.

Luckily my mother saw this and ran for my grandpa who ran inside, up the stairs to the bedroom with his shotgun, and "SHOT" the man dead. My grandfather was never prosecuted and everyone said he was a hero for protecting his girls.

It's really weird because this is the same Aunt whose husband we girls all called Uncle Friendly because he tried feeling up all the females in the family at one time or another. So you can see why no one ever told my Aunt. I thought she should know but mother demanded our silence. He had tried years earlier with all my Aunts sibblings as well, including my mother. I hope he is burning in hell!

Sad, how the issue of sexual abuse either traumatic experiences or stories of parental protection.

My partner was never close to his stepfather because he felt he didn't treat his mom well at times. ie. as a teenager he tried to protect his mom from having objects thrown at her when his stepfather was drunk... He also felt his stepfather had a somewhat wandering eye for other ladies.

To cut to the chase, I did mention to him once that it was probably a good thing he never had a sister...she would have probably been abused by this guy. My partner agreed with me. Awful isn't it?

Needless to say, when I first knew my partner, he made sure his then teenage children never saw their grandfather. He really honestly felt he had to protect his children from any sexual abusive maneouvres, in his increased dementia. And no he never discussed his concerns with his mother, a gentle, honorable woman who died last year.

Anyway, I think it was better his children got to know their grandmother well and respect her wonderful values..which they did and honour memory of her.

I did meet his stepfather..only once briefly. And when I shook his hand..his gripped my hand abit hard...for a guy in his late 70's. I was already in my mid 30's. For all that I heard about the guy from my partner, I honestly didn't feel like getting to know the guy.

He died a few years later.
______________________________________
This whole discussion emphasizes it can't be love as the priority for a child. It must complete safety from harm for a child as 1st PRIORITY, then followed by love for a child.

It must be a nightmare for any child not to feel safe in their own home if they are sexually abused by another family member.

What is truly sad and scary alike is that no abuser I have ever seen or known of looked any different from everyone else. How are we suppose to know? There is no sign on their foreheads, same a serial killer. To me a serial killer and sexual abuser of children are nearly the same, the only difference is that the serial killer kills someone dead, ende of story! However with the sexual abuser, his victims go on to live long tormented and sometimes traqic lives, even repeating the abuse on others.

Celtic,
I don't think abuse ever goes away, the flashbacks and memories.
As I've said before, we just learn to live with it, set goals and
move forward. Everyone has something goin' on their life. It could be illness, either the individual or a family member or a love one; personal disability; physical or mental abuse by a spouse; mistreatment by family members; whatever. Most folks are hurting and carrying a cross of some kind!

Joyce Meyer is a TV evangelist; and an international missionary; an author. She's a housewife from Fenton, Missouri, about 50 something, years old. During her childhood, she was sexually abused by her dad. She married young. Her first husband was abusive, too. She had one child, when that spouse ran off. She met Dave Meyer and remarried. Her real name is Pauline, I think. But, for sound effects, Joyce goes better with Meyer. Her oldest boy runs her internation ministry. Her husband runs ministry finances. She has had many books on the New York Times Best Sellers List.

I just finished listening to Dotsie's & Lynn Tolson's teleseminar. As far as prevention goes, and that Power 'n Control issue, here is one point. If somewhere along the
line, parents could be warned to screen the people they
allow their children to babysit for, they may save some youngsters. One of my attackers was a professional man, I babysat for. I was taken by surprise. In those days everything was hush, hush. I was afraid of him; his power; his family; my family; and on and on. My point: If you let your children babysit, be careful who they babysit for!

My memories have never been repressed. And sexual abuse ruins
lives. Mental abuse ruins lives. I believe bibliotherapy helps
ease the hurt. Writing helps ease the hurt. But some scars never
completely fade.

Good teleseminar, Dotsie and Lynn!

thanks for sharring your view on degree of healing jabber.


i have always though of kids being abused by strange babysitters.

i never though of babysitters being abused by parents of the kids thir sitting for, strange eh! Thanks for mentioning that jebber

for some crimes some branding or forehead tatooing be usefull, especallie since the care to rehabilitate offenders relised back into the community. I'm not sure if i am joking about the tatoo or branding but just whishing it be as obviouse as that becouse of chattys point that they look no diffrent from any one else.

heer instinct a handy thing. As i have meet some adults that id just not let near my kids and its dowen to nything more than instinct. If i am wrong theirs no harm to the kids or them by keeping them seperate, if i right id just done the kid a massive favour.

its a true delema and balance has to come into it too, weer to draw the line.

i think some mums do know and forwhatever reasons let it happen in thir owen home.
I also think some mums don't know either becouse of manipulasion of abuser for child not to tell or a quite secritive type of kid. Although i do wonder how some parents can ignore some kids reactions to people and the reactions over the top...but they do


anyway as a lot of this type of talk has adults being abused talking about thir abuser. What is heared less often and perhapps never is a carings mums perspective or a careing dads perspective as to how they din't know or explaned some strange behaviours away. I know how easie it is for kids to be angery with parents who should have knowen

id just like to know of parents who have done everything to protect their kids yet they fell through the net somehow.

id like the parents experinse and parhapps thir be a lot of learning to protect our kids within those experinses.

id be devistated if it was to happen to L so i can imagine a parent not wanting to think of it as happening i think my reaction would be to pull plugg on the whatever that had upset him or had spooked me rather than risk ignorring potencial sighnes.

anyone brave enough to give thir experinse?

the figures being what they are then thir has to be parebnts that are in this forum whos kids have been abused?

if not is thir any litriture on this from a parents perspective?

Mom knew about the babysitting incident. But I never told her about the honorary uncle. She knew I hated going around any of that family but I never said why. She realized the doctor was jerk and ordered him to stay away from me.

Well, I've read through this thread sometimes holding my breath. These experiences are so intense. Pardon me if I have to go back and reply to each post, because I don't have a blanket answer that suits all. I'll start with CF #173292. Some I have to answer by relating with personal experiences, yet shared experiences nonetheless, because some dynamics of abuse are universal. Doesn't matter the economics of a family, or education, or perception in the community... abuse, including incest, crosses all socio-economic stations, and all generation. One thing that may make a difference to future generations is that we our more able to talk, then when it was "hush hush." I said more able, better able, but people suffer in silence and shame. As for tattoos, the sex-offender registries help a little, but the S.O. are usually transitory. CF, there are more books written for children than ever before. My favorite is titled "Those Are My Private Parts" by diane hanson. It is written specifically for children such as Ls age, and the drawings are done by her 6 year old daughter. As for a parent's perspective, yes, there are. I'll get back to you on the titles. As for mothers knowing, first know that mothers can abuse too, and women are registered sex offenders too. Your observations are right on: abusers are so manipulative (consider it's a male) that mothers are manipulated too. How did my mother NOT know that my brother, her son, was molesting me? Because he was also an A student, an alter boy, and said "yes mam and no sir." It is true that often the anger towards the non-offending parent is greater than the anger at the offender. How could my mom not know that my father was molesting me when my mother's father molested her? This area is so complex. When my grandmother, in her 80s, learned about my father, she said, "I knew it, but I was too ashamed to say anything." (her use of the word ashamed is more like embarrassed.) In her 90s she learned that my brother, her beloved grandson, had molested me, and she had lots to say, but it started with, "How could he? I was watching you two all the time!" You want a parents' perspective? I did not have children, I knew in my teens that if I could not be protected, then I would not be able to protect a child. While my brother, the molester of me and 2 cousins that I know of, went on to have a family. See how generations are involved? I think that caring moms who miss the signs sometimes have a sense of self-blame. Other moms blame the child!

Jabber, thanks for listening to the teleseminar. I never often thought of the experience of being the babysitter, and the male of the household abuses the sitter. Wow, who could see that coming? I am so mad that was done to you. An example of power and control out of control, and, total perversion. I see you used the term bibliotherapy. Following is a list of books that I found helpful. This current generation uses the internet for their first source of information, I used books. Yes, reading and writing helps. "BIBLIOTHERAPY" A form of supportive psychotherapy in which carefully selected reading materials are used to assist a subject in solving personal problems or for other therapeutic purposes. (American Heritage Dictionary on-line)

Recommended Reading: http://www.beyondthetears.com/resources.html

Hi CF, You asked "Ise't this a station on a very long rail journay or do you mean its as good as it gets for that person?" I would say both. I think healing is an on-going journey. AND for some people, getting out of bed is as good as it gets for that person at that time in her life. You wrote: "why ise't total recovery possible for all people?" I don't know what total recovery is. I don't know what it looks like. Does it mean that nightmares are less frequent, triggers are less often, does it mean healthy relationships, a positive work environment, healthy in mind body spirit, creative? I just don't know. We mentioned Joyce Meyer here. Now I recall who she is. Would we perceive her as totally healed, able to experience passion and bliss? How do we know what (if anything) she suffers in life. I think a healing journey is possible, that's what I preach, but the destination may be different for each individual. The journey itself can be full of healthy relationships, passion, purpose, promise, potential, healthy heart, mind, body. That's possible. Let's take cancer for example. I have multiple scars to my breasts and chests. I got treatment. But I am never cured, there is always a chance of remission or metastatis. Sure, like abuse, I don't dwell on it, but the scars are there. Yes, I understand what you say by whatever total functioning is. I don't know what total healing means to another because I don't know what fears they may be hiding, what potential is not reached. For myself? I move forward, step by step. When I look back, I can see how far I have come. Some are healing just by sharing their messages here! That's a big step.

CF, you said "either extreme." That's true, healing is on a continuum, like a slider, backward to one extreme, forward to another. Dee, I was like you, not know what it was, until many years later. On the brighter side, I learned that what healing we have experienced can not be reduced. Healing is cumulative. Sure, we can have triggers and set backs, but the healthy parts of us rise to meet the challenge. When you know that you've been triggered, you are healing. For example, I can be triggered by discovery of a lie. I know that this lie in the here and now is not a lie that is going to lead to DV or SA. So, that's healing. When an individual is questioning those crazy Christmas dynamics, that is healing. That person knows enough to question for herself, make decisions on her own, and make changes for the better. That is healing. So, yes, there can be a mid point on the continuum. Our spirits long to be whole and complete.

Chatty, it's always so sad that not only does the abuse occur, but also a mother can not believe. 1) does she not want to deal with her own abuse and/or witness to abuse 2) does she not want to deal with the pain of having her child hurt in such a way? 3) does a parent not know that not believing her child is more pain to the child? You know, both my mother, grandmother, and stepmother knew about my father and brother, and they believed, yet each one told me at different times and when I was alone with each one, to never speak of it again. It took me until I was 43 to speak about it. Maya Angelou was mute for 6 years. Wow. the damage. Yet we try to keep on going.

Orchid, it sounds to me that your mother's instinct during that derma visit served you well as a healthy demonstration to trust your instinct. As you did with your partner's step-father. I'm glad your partner had the wherewithal to not take chances! OK, I know I had a lot to say here, so I hope I did not scare anyone away. My intention, as always, is to help heal the wounded, and shed light to those in darkness, and bring information and awareness. L, PL

Warning: I knew two (2) fathers who abused their babysitter! I was a victim and I went to college with a victim. Both men were professional, pillars of the community. The dad on 7th Heaven, starred in a TV movie called, "Seduction of a Babysitter," or something like that. What happened in that movie, mirrored what happened to me, except in my situation it was to a greater extent. And my boss got away with it. The TV dad was arrested. Watch your children and your elders. I can't say that enough!

I'll watch the video tonight. I've been to afraid to watch it.

What hurts is that these men are pillars of their communities and churches. I feel like writing them a typed letter w/out signature nor names. I'd close with "God loves you, yet your victims bear your burden."

I know. That's another thing, which is hard to wrap the brain around. God loves everybody; yet not everybody is in a loveable
mode. How do you love the men who ruined your life? How do you
love the people who are in the process of ruining your best
friend's life? I'm a human being. I'm not Divinity! I pray a lot. And I try! But I'm afraid that's a mountain I may always
climb!

Jabber, you're not obligated to love anyone. Just don't be consumed by hatred, that's all.

Wow, ladies none of us is God and we are not expected to have his forgiving nature. I for one hated my Uncle until the day he died, and still hope he's burning in hell or whatever there is besides heaven for the slimy, unapologetic bad guys.

I agree with Meredith, do not allow the hatred to consume you. File it away. Know its there but if we allow it to consume us the bastard that molested us, wins yet again! It is after all about power. Don't give your power away now that as an adult you have some.

thats the best it will ever get for me MB and i now happie with that position.

when in one of my jobs i had to work with sex offenders of other adults and of kids it meet and walloped every boundrie i had. I was in my bosses office weeklie untill i could get my head around working with them. I settled for showing loving behaviour in a professional way as being good enough to allow me to continue work and not being consumed with hate.

think was toughst cvhallenge i did with work..and i allow myself to be humaine with all my flaws and faults.

JABBER let god love them, its more gods job than ours if you know what i mean..

i am not sure many ever finalie get to top of that mountain you talked about. I am also a person of extreems, are you?

so if its ment to be or told to be loving or feel uncondisonal love (as thats what it is to be spiritual) i try till i am nearlie sick and end up failing in the end. Then i worked out its the extreem part of my nature that was jumping in heer. thats wy i say its god job and not necassarily ours.

not being near demented with anger and hate and if luckie enough actulie getting to place of goodwil towards them is for OUR benifit, they may benifit but ultimatlie its so we can live a productive life with relative peace instead of torture.

hope iv explaned that ok?

total agreement heer chattie and how we feel like we have power is personal, maybee diffrent for diffrent people,but underlying intension the same. Hold our power or get rid of what dranning our power be it attitude, people or some of our owen behaviours.

one of the great things bout being an adult.