A post by DJ made me think to ask this question.
She commented about religion being our instruction book for life.

I thought it might be interesting to learn how we came to our faith.

Since I'm the curious one I'll go first and I'll make is as brief as possible.

I was raised in a Catholic family with a mom who stayed home, a dad who worked and put all five of his lovely children through Catholic elementary and high school.

I went to mass every Sunday and Holy Day and had religion classes every single day I was in school.

Though I was confirmed, I really didn't get *IT* the way I do now.

I mean I guess it was an inherited faith that I had due to my parents instruction in the home and what I received at school.

IT wasn't until I was in my twenties and going through infertility, hubbies Diabetes interfering with finishing his boards, and on top of that, our dear friend commit suicide all in the same summer.

Time to grow up. DOn't always get what you want. I thought I was in control here. Life was spinning.

At the time we were unchurched. We phoned and met with a family minister friend and he explained that we needed to ground ourselves in Christ, that we weren't in control <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . and that life isn't always what we want but a life lived in Christ would give us the grace and strength needed. We were all ears. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So, we prayed with him, found a church we liked (happened to be right across the street from our home) and have never turned back.

By the grace of God (though through some rough situations)we found our way back and discovered our own faith and remain ever grateful. Now I know this faith I own is real.

Anyone else want to share? Good or bad experiences?

you can write volumes about this, but to keep it brief....

Raised in the United Church - baptized at 12, confirmed, married in it, had both children baptized in it. Taught Sunday School for a year, was on church council - attended at least once a month. Began dropping off once I had kids - harder to get there, no meaning in the service, no answers to questions I was having etc.

Lost full time job in 1996, began going through crisis of faith - started exploring. Tried Buddhism, read a lot of New Age stuff, developed an interest in Wicca (have a close friend very "into" this stuff so she was major influence on me I guess)- went to some weird "retreats"....

Fast forward to 2000. Youngest son attending Anglican church with my parents - has a play on Palm Sunday and asks Mom to go. I haven't been inside a church for some time. Cried through the service. Felt confused - something lacking in my life. The New Age stuff was not doing it for me. Took an Alpha course, started attending the Anglican church - gradually at first.

Last Dec. I was confirmed Anglican. I attend pretty much every Sunday now, do the church newsletter, am on the Altar guild - and I love it. My faith deepens and grows daily and I am blessed to have a wonderful church and mature Christians around me who are helping me on this walk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Garrie, you can't leave us hanging like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think I've always had faith in God. Who Jesus was and how He fit into the picture was a mystery for a time, and the function of the church had me stumped for a while, but those things are pretty well in place now.

Anyway, I grew up in a nonbelieving home. My family felt that as long as you weren't that perennial ax murderer you were probably okay.

I married at 19 and hubby and I came to faith about the same time. We have helped start churches in the midwest and northwest. We are not clergy, just people called to help.

The reason I am a Christian is more than any other book, the Bible describes real people. I know a person is ignorant of its contents when they say, "The Bible is full of stories about goody-goodies." My first reply is for them to name three. It's rare I get an answer. The Word addresses behavior I see on a daily basis and is painfully honest in describing me. But it also gives answers. Most of them involve me getting off my high horse and becoming a servant, or removing the log from my eye before before I go digging for the splinters of others. *sigh*

Sometimes I don't like what I am forced to acknowledge is the truth, but I want the truth. I'm rather stuck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sue

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chuchularue:
[QB]I think I've always had faith in God. Who Jesus was and how He fit into the picture was a mystery for a time, and the function of the church had me stumped for a while, but those things are pretty well in place now.

Sue, you just figured something out for me. Your words sorted out the qay I was raised and my beliefs too. I knew God as a kid, but not the love of Jesus.

Also, I'm still sorting out the church government and deciding if I like it. I'm a Presbyterian.

Your comment about the Bible being a story for goody goodies. I'm reading the Purpose Driven Life and just this morning read about the following people:

Jacob-insecure
Moses-stuttered
JOseph-abused
Samson-codependent
Jeremiah-depressed
Abraham-old
David-affairs and family problems
Elijah-suicidal
Peter-hot tempered
Martha-worrier
Samaritan woman-many failed marriages
Zacchaeus-unpopular
Thomas-doubted
Paul-poor health

Rick Warren (author) was pointing this out in his book to show that God uses everybody...no excuses. Yes, even me!

I heard a minister say:
"Churches are not a museum for saints, they are hospitals for sinners"
I think that says it all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Thanks for sharing!

Church government is one of the few things that really separate us as believers. I personally feel that the biblical model is an elder-led church. No monthly meetings, no one-man-one-vote sort of thing. But, I also think that if a person feels there is more accountability, they should support that church model. The bottomline for me is: Is the leadership of the church submitted to the authority God, accountable to trustworthy people in the congregation and are they commited to taking care of the "sheep?"

I am a little radical in that I believe most systems, even those of human creation, will work if we are submited to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and "working out our own salvation with fear and trmebling." Grace covers a mutitude of sins and goes a long way to making the brethern a lot more loveable.

Take care--Sue

For me, Being a Christian is not a religion, it is a relationship. I am a child of God. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he gave his life so that I could live. I will have an eternal life with God not separated from God. I spend time with the Lord daily through prayer and Bible study. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God.

So its a relationship. Its what gives me a basis for my living each day. Christ was a servant more than anything and I try to pattern my life after His awesome example.

He keeps me on my knees and humble. He gives me joy amidst the hard things in life.

So there you have it.

Ladies, I am so enjoying your observations and sharings on faith and religion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
thanks so much

While the relationship between the individual and Jesus Christ is the main concern in Christianity, the institution of the Church is vital to the believer's life as well.

To me, most of my interaction with others is chosen by me, but when it comes to church, I am at the mercy of God. Whoever walks through that door is now a part of my "immediate" family. On a spiritual level all Believers are brothers and sisters in the Lord, but since we are not in personal contact those relationships are not ones that challenge me. My church family presents me with people and situations with which I would not normally involve myself. And for that I am grateful.

I know that many have been deeply hurt by people in the Church. Some of my deepest wounds have been inflicted by other Believers, but some of my greatest insights into myself and this Christian walk have come because I became acquainted with someone who wasn't quite my "type."

For me I can't separate my personal walk and my involvement with other believers in the authority and the structure of the Church.

Take care--Sue

Hi everyone
I've been time-poor and not able to join in the discussions til now but i have been following this one. I agree that the church can sometimes get in the way of our faith - I feel a bit disconnected from the church at the moment for various reasons. Here is a song lyric that describes my faith journey - I don't tell many people this but I have quite a stong memory of my first "God" experience as a pre-schooler...

I was just a child
But I know you called my name
I was just a child when into my life you came
You saved me from the evil one and gave me strength to live
I was just a child
I became your child
I am still your child
I love you still.

The years have passed
Change is part of my life
I am mother, sister, daughter, wife
But one thing doesn't change
Still I hear you
Calling out my name
Making me your own

I was just a child
But I know you called my name
I was just a child when into my life you came
You saved me from the evil one and gave me strength to live
I was just a child
I became your child
I am still your child
I love you still.

It's a strange, cold world
People come and they go
But if there's one thing left in this world that I know
It's the sound of your voice,
Still and quiet
Like sunshine on the ground
Warming my heart

I was just a child
But I know you called my name
I was just a child when into my life you came
You saved me from the evil one and gave me strength to live
I was just a child
I became your child
I am still your child
I love you still.

Julie, thats beautiful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One of my favorite writers is Philip Yancey - when I have trouble sorting out faith, church, etc. I liked to read his books - he has a way of writing that just sorts it all out for me, because he's "been there, thought that, felt it"...........

Teri,
I agree with you that faith isn't a religion, it's a relationship. That's what was missing in my faith as a child. I didn't have a relationship with Jesus.

Now I do and I can't quite imagine what my life would be like without that relationship. That is where I draw my strength for every single day of my life. Jesus *jazzes* me! Corny, but true!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My faith goes beyond religion. Religion is earth-bound, part of the fabric but definitely not the whole cloth. Everything that ever is, was or will be, throughout time or space or energy, is related and intertwined.

If your religion makes you a better, more loving and caring person, then this is good, a positive influence on the energy of the universe. If your religion narrows your mind or your heart, then that's bad. Exclusion -- anyone who says "my thread is better than your thread" -- ignores the beautiful interplay of threads that make up the garment.

[QUOTE] "my thread is better than your thread"

You said it just right Meredithbead. That's what bugs me most at the moment - some church people I know claiming to have the "right" approach to christianity and creating divisions amongst people. I believe in the inclusive love and forgiveness of God - hey, He even loves ME.

Evie, thanks for the tip, I've been meaning to get hold of some books by Yancy but haven't found any through my usual sources - pretty poor excuse coming from a librarian, I know - I will try a bit harder to find them.

Yes, Meredith, I also agree with what you say. If religion creates disunity, then there's no need for religion -- it isn't serving its purpose. Having faith in or a relationship with Jesus seems to be a beginning, not an ending, toward understanding what God wants, something that gets you grounded and provides a point where you turn for guidance. To covenant with Jesus should imply following his example in deeds, not just in words. It's important also to recognize that Moslems do the same with Mohammad, Buddhists with Buddha, and so on for the sincere followers in all the religions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DJ:
<strong> Having faith in or a relationship with Jesus seems to be a beginning, not an ending, toward understanding what God wants, something that gets you grounded and provides a point where you turn for guidance. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">DJ, couldn't agree more about a God providing a point to turn for guidance!

Seek Him first and then everything else follows...

I crammed a lot of activity into my Sunday yesterday) - gardening, grooming the dog, ironing, food shopping,and got the boys organised to stay home and babysit while hubby and I went to the evening service, first time in quite a while...was looking forward to a worshipful end to a good day...but I find that the whole church is in worse turmoil than i realised over the gay ordination issue, the minister about to be tossed out...people leaving...in a way i think that staying AWAY from church has been strangely protective of my belief - although I miss my peer group (they are the ones walking out and going to other churches. We live in a bible belt and there are plenty to chose from). I have been so caught up with the mundane business of living that i haven't kept in contact as i should - need some wisdom from the elders of this tribe - wondering what to do - in this situation everyone thinks they are "right". I begin to wonder if it matters at all - aren't the relationships being lost more important than theology? Or is it really all about power and control (the cynic in me says yes).

Julie, I think religion has far less to do with maintaining a relationship with any kind of god than it does with stumbling around looking for a personally acceptable set of parameters within which to navigate that relationship.

I don't know if I put that very well, but I read an analagy in a book on Buddhism that was very helpful to me. The writer spoke of religion being just one raft you might use on a larger journey. You might use a raft to cross a river you come to but wouldn't it be silly to try to cart that raft with you over dry land once you've successfully crossed the rough waters? That raft would, in fact, become a hindrance then, rather than a help.

So, at different stages of your spiritual life you are going to find a variety of craft to help you on your travels. Don't be afraid to leave one behind when it no longer aids your journey.

Garrie,I hear what you are saying and for years I have known NOT to say certain things in discussion groups because they wouldn't fit the "personally acceptable set of parameters" - great phrase - other people were using to manage their belief...they weren't using the same raft as me but we were floating down the same stream. Right now I feel like I'm dog-paddling alone while eveyone else is jumping off a sinking ship! Nevertheless I have always found that God meets me at every turn in the journey with the strenghth and comfort I need. He is so immense that there will always be more of Him that I haven't discovered before that "fits" who I am and where I am at that time in my journey...

Julie,

Have you read a lot about different religions and belief systems? Maybe this is the time to explore. That doesn't necessarily mean to give up on your church, but perhaps it would be beneficial to view it from different perspectives. If it doesn't meet all of your religious needs, does it meet enough to make it worth your while? And if the problems are greater than the rewards, look inside yourself to figure out what is, and is not, important in a religious institution.

I think some people think I am TOO open to other religions and systems of belief! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Certainly I have come into contact with people of other cultures and religions over the years who I admire and respect.It is the expansion and growth of my understanding of God that is the point of conflict with my former (it hurts to say that) fellowship group.

I am not shopping for a new God - I have been claimed by the great I AM, saturated in the loving forgiveness of Jesus Christ and comforted daily by the Holy Spirit. He meets me on the beach where the waves meet the sand gives me songs to sing each morning.

I am just in mourning for the lost fellowship of friends who are stuck on the details of theology and can't admit the great encompassing love of God.

Of course it hurts. I am sorry for your loss of friends from the fellowship, but as Garrie intimated, that may be your old raft.

I know you trust in your God and the universe. Trust too that God/ Universe will bring you to the people you need to know for the coming journey.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Julie:
<strong>- I have been claimed by the great I AM, saturated in the loving forgiveness of Jesus Christ and comforted daily by the Holy Spirit. He meets me on the beach where the waves meet the sand gives me songs to sing each morning. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Beautifully written...I love that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Julie, I've been mulling your post over for days because I've been (and am still sorta floundering) in a very similar situation with my church family.

Reflecting on when this started (several years ago) I was employed by my church. After three years of serving as the part-time Coordinator of Member Care, I chose to leave. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Yeah, try leaving a job in a church where you are, and have been a member for years. I did so as diplomatically as possible.

Our church has been in transition/turmoil for several years and I've witnessed behaviors that franklly shocked me (yet were done in the name of God). Go figure... who am I to judge?

Here's how I've managed to stay above water.

I hunkered down in prayer at my kitchen table with my Bible, journal and any other Christian book I may have been reading at the time. I poured out my soul to my good buddy, Jesus Christ.

I clung to my prayer group who I saw as faithful women.

I was very picky about my involvement at the church, choosing to stay involved with the children because they are so innocent.

I sought spiritual growth outside my own church and found it in other places, and still do.

We continued to go to church as a family because my children and spouse were involved in some areas.

Many dear friends have moved on and we're still hanging in there and healing.

I've had differing emotions about the whole situation. There are times when I'm upset that people have left or are leaving, and there are times when I question why I'm still hanging out.

The most important thing I can tell you is this: In spite of all the turmoil at the church, my faith has grown tremendously because in some ways I've had to go it alone. Hasn't been such a bad thing.

So dear friend, I hope this helps. I'm happy to chat more through e-mail if you would like.

I'm glad your heart is in it and it's important enough that you chose to throw it out to your online neighbors. Sending thoughts and prayers your way.

Oh, we have a new minister who is giving me great hope for positive changes. Yahoo!

It's interesting what Julie is saying about missing the fellowship with others who you think share your beliefs. How do you really know if others believe the same as you do anyway? So few people talk about it. There's some sort of taboo about talking about beliefs. And we often use words, many which are never examined. For example, somewhere in the forum, someone said she doesn't believe in God, if you mean the God that looks like what Michaelangelo painted on the Sistine Chapel. What's funny about that is that she assumed that's what others meant by "God". I think that many who say they're atheist say so for the same reason -- because they saw pictures in their childhood of "god" which they know as adults to be an absurdity.
How do you know when you're really close to someone? Is it because of the words you share in common with people you only see in church? Or do you really have a community of caring, from people you can count on when you need help, physically and otherwise?

Connections are so important in life, whoever they are with, regardless of where those connections are made.

Whatever the connection is to another person, it is made because of commonalities. Anytime I feel misconnected or unconnected to someone that I thought I had lots in common with, I feel a little out of whack. Curious about why the misconnection. It's usually a time of growth.

It's a shame we let religious politics get in the way of relationships. I think relationships are more important than rules and government.

DJ, there was a time when I picked and chose who I talked about my beliefs with, but the older I get the more I'm willing to take the occasional risk and share my faith. It's not easy and is usually very calculated, but if people hadn't shared their faith with me, I wouldn't have the faith that I have today....so I say go for it and talk about what people may not want to hear.

If it is believable I agree with all of you.

Personally, I was raised a practising Catholic. Went kicking and screaming most of the time. But a voice or a message was getting through even then. I always listen to that voice. It guides even through some crazy turns and twists in my life.

I have learned to have faith and believe in that voice. I believe it is God. The voice told me to leave town when I was 19 and not to marry the man I was engaged to. An opportunity presented itself (and it was outlandish) and I took it. I met not only myself over the next 10 years but my husband and love of my life.

He, too, has been directed by the voice and believes to listen to God.

Most of our large life choices have been made by listening and taking the leap of faith.

Now that we are faced with Cancer recovery etc etc, my faith must be strong. I do believe He is the one that directed us into discovering a terminal disease that was caught early and is giving our little family a chance. Faith is an active verb!!

My after death beliefs get a little unconvential. I do believe I will see God and sit in front of him to be judged but not critically. Just to learn what I did and did not do inthis lifetime to further myself along the path. I do believe I will return to earth as another being that will have a road map laid out and a plan in place for my growth as a soul. The plan is deviated from because we all have our own will. I receive "roadsigns" that encourage me when I am on the path again and following God. When I deviate, and sometimes it has been years. I do not get a road sign. When I live withoput one for awhile, I know to begin to search within myself because I am on the wrong path.

I stopped there because this could get too lengthy. But the point is I am a believeer of God but I differ from the Catholic i was raised, in my afterlife beliefs. I accept everyones belief because each soul must do the work of their own in each life time. Who am I to say what is right for you?

I worship in a church sometimes and sometimes it is more meaningful to do for others or to simply be in God's lovely earth and appreciate him on a one to one basis. I deviate based on what I need.

Currently, group worship is what is needed and most soothing. So that is what we do.

Can we talk about faith here on earth without discussing the afterlife?

Okay, Dotsie, I will!
I grew up memorizing Bible passages -- the Beattitudes, Psalms, the 10 commandments -- maybe about a dozen or so -- in a Congregational church in the midwest. I was always puzzled about why God seemed actively involved in peoples' lives in those days, but hadn't been heard from recently. There was political infighting in my church, because the minister preached against Vietnam and started trying to integrate the church. People quit going and pledging, so the minister left. When he left, I left too, because I believed that as Christians we had to live our faith. After a few years of searching, I became a Baha'i and have been ever since.
From that perspective, let me respond to the most recent post, about hearing god's voice.
I don't believe that any of us is capable of talking directly to God. The only ones who can do that are the divine messengers, the revealers of Religion, who speak God's word throughout history, progressively revealing the message that people in that age are ready and able to hear. These divine teachers --separated by centuries but never absent (as promised to Noah) -- include Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad and Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i Faith. They bring teachings that can carry us forward, at a time when the "old raft" isn't able to.

DJ, how about educating us a little on the Baha'i Faith?

Sure.
Basically, the Baha'i Faith proclaims the unity of religion. God reveals His message to His chosen Messengers, and does so progressively throughout the ages. The divine Messengers receive a Revelation from God, but have to deliver their message according to the ability of people to comprehend. The spiritual truths are eternal -- all the religions have a Golden Rule.
But the social teachings change according to the needs of the times, as humankind has progressd from individuals and families to city states, nation states, and now the planet. Social teachings are things like dietary laws, marriage procedures, penalties for crimes (in the Old Testament it was an eye for an eye, for example).
The founder of the Baha'i Faith is Baha'u'llah whose name means Glory of God. He lived in Persia, and proclaimed the religion beginning in 1863. He was exiled for 40 years (because he was perceived by the Muslim clergy as a threat, so great was the power of his teachings) and ended up in prison in Akka, near Haifa, Israel, where the Baha'i world center is now.
Baha'u'llah revealed a number of different social laws, with the aim toward the unity of all people. One of the laws is a daily obligatory prayer. Another is a prohibition against backbiting. A Baha'i marriage requires the permission of all living parents and the reciting of a phrase before two witnesses.
There is no clergy in the Baha'i Faith. Instead, Baha'is elect assemblies of 9 members locally, nationally, and on a world level. The assemblies have authority, but the individual members do not. The elections occur by secret ballot, with no campaigning and no discussion of names. The 9 people with the most votes are elected.
The Baha'i calendar is 19 months of 19 days, with a few days left over. The year ends with a 19 day fast (Mar 2-20) between sunrise and sunset, then the new year begins on Mar 21. The first day of each month is the Feast, which is a meeting with 3 parts -- spiritual, business and social. The business part is where the community members all discuss their affairs. In some parts of the world, like India, where there are numerous Baha'is, they actually discuss things like running their schools, and getting drilling wells. There are sometimes centers, but no "churches" per se. It depends on the needs of any particular community. Around here we meet in each others' homes, though occasionally rent halls for bigger events.
However, Baha'is have built temples on all the continents of the world, to which all are invited to worship, though no formal services are held there. There's a temple near Chicago, Germany, Australia, Panama, Uganda, the South Pacific and one's being built in Chile.
Baha'u'llah wrote extensively on the reality of the soul. The soul begins at conception, in this world, and continues for eternity. The purpose of this life on earth is to acquire spiritual attributes that will be needed in the next world, such things as faith, truthfulness, patience -- all the virtues, in other words. The negative things are of the material world, and are like shadows that have no substance. Thus you can't take evil with you. However, you can determine the degree to which you progress spiritually.
Basically Baha'is view the diffences among religions as having mostly to do with differences in the social laws, which are inteneded to last only until the return of the next Luminary.
I hope this gives enough info for now!

There is a beautiful Baha'i temple in Sydney. As a child it was a landmark for us as we drove to the beach in the summer.We knew we were nearly there when we saw the temple!

DJ wrote: How do you really know if others believe the same as you do anyway?

There is a core belief that I share with other Christians and in a small group from the church we have experienced true shared worship and a love that ignored individual, trivial, differences.

That is the miracle of Christianity.

"All praise to our redeeming Lord
Who joins us by his grace
And bids us each to each restored
Together seek His face."

I am hopeful that my church will remember this and put aside their doctrinal squabbles and concentrate on the central truth of our faith.

DJ

I have friends and a neighbor that is Baha'i. I have been to their "church" but I didn't understand their teaching very well.

It seemed that they believe in a number of 'saviors' who came at different times in history to 'save' man from various threats. Is that correct?

Also I wanted to know if they believe in Jesus as the Savior of the soul?

Not trying to convert anyone, just wanted to know in order to know how to discuss things with my neighbors who are of that faith.

Thanks

smile

Smilinize,
The word that many Baha'is use for those Saviors is Manifestation of God. Baha'is believe that Jesus is who is says he is and accept the Bible as the authoritative word of Christ.
Saving mankind from various threats throughout history: the Manifestations bring the word that needs to be heard at that time. All the Manifestations have the same mission, which is to teach the religion of God, and same us from the threat of our own ego and attachment to the material world. For example, Moses brought the 10 Commandments, and Jesus upheld them.
As human civilization grows more complex and moves toward greater international relationships, there are problems that the old teachings don't adequately address. Moses revealed certain dietary laws at a time when people were ignorant of bacteria, for example. Christian sects form over such disagreements -- right now, the Episcopal Church is dividing about the gays in the clergy issue.
Remember that Jesus said (I think it's in Matthew) I have many things to tell you but you cannot bear them now. He spoke to people for whom Galillee and Jerusalem were like two different countries. Remember the parable of the good Samaritan?
It seems to me that what happens to all the religions with time is that people, especially clergy, start to interpret the words of the Manifestation for their own purposes.

DJ, what is your worship service like, and do you worship on Sundays? Just curious.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You're probably asking whether we have a worship service that's like a church service. Well, yes and no.
First of all, we have a new calendar that's 19 months of 19 days. The first day of the month is the "19-Day Feast" which can be any day of the week (since 7 doesn't go into 19!) The day starts at sundown of the evening before. The Feast can happen any time after that, or on the following day.
The Feast opens with a devotional portion where we read from Baha'u'llah's writings and prayers and also have music. We don't ever say prayers in unison, so the reader reads and others listen, maybe with eyes closed. This portion of the Feast is generally meditative and loving.
Whoever is hosting the Feast that month is responsible for selecting and assigning the readings and the music. Around here we meet in individual homes.
Even though it's called a Feast it's not like Thanksgiving or anything. After the devotional portion, there's a business portion, where the community consults on whatever concerns they have. Then the food is at the end of the meeting, and it can be simple or elaborate, again, depending on who's hosting it, and what the culture is of the area.
Also, individuals sometimes host regular Devotional Gatherings just to get together to say prayers with friends and neighbors. At such gatherings, they also have prayers from other religious traditions. But I wouldn't call this a Baha'i worship service.
There's another principle, too, in the Baha'i Faith about worship -- and that is that work, when done in the spirit of service, is equal to worship. Though of course this is personal, not congregational.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DJ:
There's another principle, too, in the Baha'i Faith about worship -- and that is that work, when done in the spirit of service, is equal to worship. Though of course this is personal, not congregational.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is something our church is trying to become more involved in. We believe everyone has gifts given to them by God, actually gifts from the Holy Spirit. When we corporate our spiritual gifts with what we do on a daily basis, it's a form of worshipping God. Is that what you are referring to?

When people either work professionally or do volunteer work within the gifts of the spirit it's amazing what God can do through us. DOn't you think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have a two-part response to what you say.
Regarding work: The notion is that all effort and exertion put forth from the fullness of one's heart is worship, if it's prompted by a will to serve humanity. It doesn't matter what the work is -- cleaning the house, teaching, typing, the arts, professions. Anything.
As far as our God-given talents and capacities: "Man is a mine rich in gems..." In other words, we're all born with innate capacities, all of us different, but all with the ability to reflect the attributes of God, such as kindness, grace, love, patience, justice, truthfulness, honesty, etc. Our task is to perfect those inner qualities.
We also have different physical attributes, like some people are blessed with hand-eye coordination, perfect pitch, keen eyesight, quick reflexes.
The ideal would be to use our best talents in service to God, though material conditions don't always allow that for us.
When you talk about God working through us, it reminds me of a simple Baha'i prayer:
"O Lord, make me as a hollow reed from which the pith of self hath been blown, so that I may become a clear channel through which Thy love may flow to others."

Dotsie,
The spirtual gifts was one of my favorite studies in a Bible study group I was invited to.
We learned all about them and when they are all
working together. Wow!! Its fun to see how they
are working in any group you are in.
When you lead a group its encouraging to tap into this source of gifts and you will be blessed so many more times if you let the gifts work.
Thanks,
Maggie

A couple of years ago I attended a spiritual gifts weekend workshop/retreat. We studied spiritual gifts, did an assessment of our "gifts" and also had two other people do an assessment of us....it was interesting to see how other people confirmed your gifts or helped you to see gifts you didn't think you had...this gifts workshop led to my becoming involved in the church newsletter, which also led to sparking my interest in writing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Evie, I attended a day long seminar on spiritual gifts a few years back where we did the same thing. What denomination are you?

Also, did everyone in your congregation do this? And if so how did you go about getting them to do it?

The one I did was held at another church and only those interested attended.

I think it would be a great adult ed option on a Sunday morning.

Dotsie,
I'm Anglican. And no, not everyone attended - we advertised the workshop, it was held at a retreat center, and we had people from other churches attend too - so it was a very nice mix actually.

Those of us who attended from my church agreed at the end of the weekend to have a further "meeting" with our Pastor at a later date, to discuss the weekend, our spiritual gifts, how we were currently serving in the church, how that matched our gifts, and any ideas of where we could perhaps be better suited to serve - thats where the newsletter came in to play for me, with my later meeting with my Pastor...

Hello...your stories of your faith walk have been fascinating! My paternal great-grandpa was a Methodist minister who took the Gospel to Webster County, WV in the mid-late 1800's. On Mom's side, her Daddy was a circuit rider preacher of the Pentacostal faith. I can remember going with him to his little country churches where he would preach his heart out for an hour or so. When the folks would take up offering, he would, many times, be paid in eggs or a ham. What an privilege to have such memories and come from such sturdy stock.

I was raised in the church and have many lovely memories of Sunday School, Vacation Bible School and church camp. When I entered my early twenties I got "too big for my britches" (as the saying goes) and wandered away from church, God and all that "stuff". I spent too many years floundering and wasted so much precious time on nothing that mattered at all...then or now. Those are some of the biggest regrets of my life...wasted time, energy, efforts, resources, relationships, etc.

When in my late thirties, I made a deliberate decision to return to the fold and gave over my life to Christ. He has restored, in ways I could never have imagined, those wasted years. I've had to re-imagine my life and the way I've looked at it...the loss of never having had children but in "adopting" other people as "my" children, as an example.

I have strong Christian based beliefs upon which my life is based. If others share those beliefs -fine. If they don't, that's fine as well. My friends are Christian and non-Christian alike. I base friendship upon how I am treated not whether they share my faith.

I've been in churches where good works constituted entry to heaven. And, I've been in churches where God's grace and faith was the ticket. I suppose I'm pretty much fundamental in what I believe. I believe that if one accepts Christ as their Savior and turns over their life to Him...they are going to heaven. Beyond that I don't have a problem with almost anyone, including snake handlers, which we have in our County :>) YIKES! They believe handling snakes is a sign of their faith (as in Acts). I believe handling snakes will, sooner or later, get them a LOT closer to God! (I just tried to add a smiley face and it stuck its tongue out at me! Is that "God" speaking???) <ggg>

God is good and His mercy is a mystery. I mean, we (the human race) are still here, aren't we? How many of us have *that* kind of patience, to let folks like "us" still procreate. I'm not sure but I think maybe I would have been fed up a few centuries ago.

I love practicing my Christian faith. I love the successes and the failures and the incomprehensible love God has for me...make that ME!!! While we were yet sinners...who, but GOD, could come up with *that* plan? I sure couldn't and can't think of a single friend who could have either.

No other god has as much to offer me. No other faith can fill the longing within me. The only thing that bothers me about the whole business is...would I be this strong about my faith if I were at the business end of being persecuted for my faith? I sincerely hope to never have that question put to me. I mean, I've failed Him so frequently for so little; I'm not sure I would pass a greater test.

Foremost in my mind are God's great grace and mercy...gifts of unimaginable size. I am so very thankful.

Sandra

Sandra, you mentioned wandering for a bit and not doing curch. I did the same and am so grateful for the turn of events that brought me back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Reminds me of Lynn's quote about hard times not being bad. In retrospect, I always find that to be true!

There are times I wonder where I'd be without my faith. Can't quite imagine that now that I've been back for twenty years. Wow, didn't realize it had been that long since I continued the interrupted journey from childhood.

Reflecting on the before and after wandering stage, I must say mine are very different faiths. The God of my childhood was a very judgemental God. I was more afraid of than in love with Him.

My new God that I found through Jesus Christ is a God of love, forgiveness and compassion...a true friend who will never leave me! Now that's a comfort! It's nice to know I share it with so many in these forums, my sisters in Christ.

Sandra you wrote:
"The only thing that bothers me about the whole business is...would I be this strong about my faith if I were at the business end of being persecuted for my faith? I sincerely hope to never have that question put to me. I mean, I've failed Him so frequently for so little; I'm not sure I would pass a greater test."

I often wonder about that myself these days...especially when I read about someone else being so strong in faith despite persecution...I wonder what I would do......maybe that is why it is important to remember to pray for faith as well, not just take it for granted that we have it but pray that it be strengthened and grow?

Well...it's tough being honest. I've found a lot of people just don't want honesty...not really. What they want is the "concept" of honesty, but when the talk turns totally honest...people get uncomfortable.

I read recently about people who say they like change and even welcome it into their lives. What the article (or story or whatever it was) said was that actually people like change WHEN THEY CONTROL IT. That was a lightbulb moment for me because I've always been one of those who "liked change". I now realize that I've liked change when I controlled what the change was...totally different thing. When God sends me change, I can sometimes take a v-e-r-y l-o-n-g t-i-m-e to accept it.

Do I really want stronger faith? Um...yes, if the price isn't too great. So, do I pray for greater faith? Sometimes yes and sometimes no.

What I pray for, mostly, is for God to give me the strength to do the work He sets before me.

I wandered away from my faith and God for many years before deciding I really could NOT do this life thing on my own. I made so many bad decisions, so many bad mistakes but wouldn't change what I've learned for anything. I've met folks who were brought up like I was (in the church) and who never left. They have absolutely NO idea what's it's like living a non-Christian life. They simply cannot relate to people who are hurting by drugs or alcohol or lots of other "stuff".

I was in a women's seminiar once and the speaker told us a story of how she had been a prostitute (for men or wome...didn't matter as long as they had the $$$), living on the streets of NYC, had a drug addiction, alcohol problem and I forget what else. She met a street missionary who told her the Gospel of Jesus and she accepted Christ as her Lord. BUT, for the next six months she continued her old lifestyle. Why? Because no one told her she needed to get into a church, get off the street, change her ways, etc. She simply didn't know to change.

Her question to the group was, "If I had died in those first six months...would I have gone to heaven or hell?"

From some of the responses she got, it makes me glad God is in charge!

It takes ALL of us to do what God wants done. We each have a mission, we each have talents, we each have a job in His kingdom.

I just realized I'm rambling...sorry.

ramble away, you make some very good points, good food for thought!

Re: liking change when you control the change - never heard it expressed like that before, but I can see how that is true, especially for me. I could handle job loss, etc when I felt I had some control over my future - there is so much more stress when a major life change occurs that you feel you have no control over - takes a lot deeper trust in God for the outcome doesn't it?

Seems like control is just a perception. Even when I think I'm in control, I don't really have the power to exercise it. Power seems to come from giving up control.

Does that make sense?

smile

Evie and Sandra, your posts remind me of a Women Of Faith COnference I attended a couple years ago.

Talk about how far you would go to stand up for your faith...Heather Mercer and Dana Curry spoke at this conference. They're the two young gals who were taken hostage in Afghanistan for teaching Christianity to women and children. DOn't know if you recall but it was shortly before the Sept. 11th attacks. They were being held by the Taliban with Afghanistan women. They were rescued after over 100 days in prison. Riveting story to lsiten to them share how they whispered songs and verses, and prayers in spite of their capture. Tremendous faith. I sat there wondering if I would have had the courage, and if I would have even gone in the first place. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I like to take myself off the hook by saying, different gifts, different ministry. Cop-out?

Their book is Prisoners of Hope. Still haven't read it, but this reminds me it's one I want to read.

Lisa Beamer was also at that conference. She was unbelievable. Well, because of her faith, I did believe her! I got her book at the conference and devoured it within days. WONDERFUL and full of such inspiration.

I guess I could relate to her more than the girls. Losing a husband and having three kids to raise is something I still fear.

God give us strength to do your will no matter what it is or where we are....right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

*Life* is just a perception...albeit a very real one! I think Albert Einstein said that.

Women of Faith - thanks for reminding me I haven't visited their website for a while. It's a great website, full of wonderful information. I especially love the "chumminess" feel to it.

Barbara Johnson's news is sad, we need to keep her in our prayers. I really have enjoyed her books over the years.

I think I'll try to find Prisoner's of Hope. If the local library doesn't have it, I'll have to wait until we visit a "big city" bookstore. Also the Beamer book. They both sound great.

God does give us strength; bless His name!

I was raised so Catholic.Uncle a priest,cousin a nun,Catholic school all the way through college.
In a nut shell I left for a Charismatic church in my 20's. It was good and the word of God came alive for me.It lasted for a couple years but I didn't like the "classes" I saw in the church.
Most of all I missed receiving communion when I went to church.I believe the water and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ.I believe this because the Bible says-"This is my body, this is my blood" ,not this is a sumbol of My body- or this represents My blood.
So I returned to the Eucharist and some quiet.
It is good,it is home, but the Word isn't on fire.
So I thank God for my personal relationship with Jesus Christ because He is my friend. He knows when I love Him .He knows when I'm mad at Him.It is solid at times and tenuous at times but the only constant in my life.
Church rules-any rules-were never very big with me,but friendship is.So my faith is in that relationship I have with Christ.

What a nice, honest post Caloona, and I love the way you express your "friendship" with Christ. How important AND such a wonderful way to put it. Thanks for sharing.

I've been reading the posts about people questioning whether they'd be willing to die for their faith. It certainly is the ultimate measure.
Baha'is in Iran have been persecuted since the beginning of the Baha'i faith, and it got worse after the 1979 Khomeini revolution. (Some of the Moslem clergy have got it in their minds that the Baha'i Faith is a heretical sect of Islam, which would be like saying that Christianity is a heretical sect of Judaism.) Their citizen rights were taken away, meaning they can't leave the country (no passports) and their children can't attend college. Their property is routinely confiscated, they've been routinely imprisoned and tortured and killed. You may have heard about it over the past 20 years. Baha'is don't have clergy, just elected Assemblies of 9 members, and for a couple of years, the Assembly were all imprisoned and killed until the international assembly told them to quit electing assemblies.
There are Baha'is in my community who escaped with their lives, many whose relatives and friends have all been killed. I met some who as children strapped themselves underneath sheep and went over the border into Pakistan that way. There's a famous story about a 15-year-old girl named Mona who taught children's classes in Teheran, and she was imprisoned, and tortured and eventually put to death in the 1980s because she wouldn't recant her faith.
I think it's always a question worth asking oneself, whether or not you'd give your life for your beliefs. If not, why not?
I heard from others that when a Baha'i did recant, the Moslem prison guard would say, "You're a liar." and kill them anyway.
The lesson here is that if you're a Baha'i in Iran and you don't want to die, then you shouldn't be a Baha'i. The clergy has been trying to exterminate them, but they're as strong as they ever were.

Unfortunately the history of the world is full of similar stories, people being persecuted and killed because they weren't the "right" religion. Too many people "validate" their belief system by annihilating the disbelievers.

It's not 'just' religion though. On a deeper level, it's love that leads humans to kill our own species. Love of country, love of money, love of drugs, love of a woman or a man, love of a friend, love of family and love of God among other magnificent osessions all lead people to kill. Love is so valuable and so fragile that we are compelled to defend it even to the point of killing others of our kind.

Religion as a series of rituals addressing the deepest human need for love at the spiritual level serves to organize the innate urge to defend love at its source.

Just thoughts.

smile

You raise an interesting point. At first I was going to say that I can't see real _love_ as being responsible for anything bad. But then when reading your examples, I notieced that it's love of material things rather than spiritual things, like love of truth, love of beauty, love of justice, love of harmony. The problem is in where we direct our attention.
Otherwise I would have said that it's ego (or love of self I guess) that's the real problem. With regard to religion, too, I think that when people become involved in "religious" strife, that's a misinterpretation of what true religion is. What we're really saying is that politics (love of self and love of power) intrudes into religion, then problems arise. So when people wage wars in the name of religion, that's an oxymoron. True religions (as opposed to movements started by charismatic leaders, like Maher Baba, Sun Yung Moon, Jim Jones, etc.) have always taught the Golden Rule. The others teach "worship ME."

It seems to me that all forms of love have tremendous value and yet is the source of much killing. Even the types of love you describe lead to killing. People have killed just to possess great art and the religious wars seem to be in defense of varying version of truth. Many people have been killed to exact justice in the form of revenge and often people fight to preserve the peace or harmony as they see and love it.

I see the love of family, friends, country, and God as different from love of material things such as money, drugs, etc. Self love is probably the source of much destruction, but it too is still love and in its finest form a part of loving others.

There is a finite, but important difference between religion and worship and between religion and spirit. To me, religion is a complex spiritual management system made up of rituals that can easily be corrupted in the indivudual spirit.

Interesting discussion.

smile

<small>[ January 11, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]</small>

Boy, one day off the boards and I missed so much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'm all the way back to Caloona and then I'll catch up.

I love your thoughts about rules and friendships. Great perspective.

You also mentioned that the Word wasn't on fire. There was a time in my life when the Word wasn't on fire for me either. FOrtunately, and I guess it's part of my journey, the WOrd is on fire for me now and I couldn't live without it.

I believe the Word wasn't on fire for me because I wasn't in it enough. I heard it in church and read what I had to if I was in a Bible study, read my daily, tear off calendars, but that was it.

A few years ago I attended a retreat for women held by another church. I was away from all my regular church women and other things started clicking for me. Maybe I had to be out of my element, but it was from that retreat that I chose to carry a golden nugget that I continue to carry today. BE IN THE WORD. That did it for me. Now I read the Bible for the shear enjoyment of reading and staying focused. I'm no scholar by any means. Still never read it from cover to cover either, so there's still so much to learn. It always speaks directly to me and I've found it to be the only book that I can go to for guidance regardless of the topic.

I never intend to sound preachy, but just thought I'd share how the Word truly became alive for me.

Like I tell my kids:
If you want to know more about someone, something, a period in time, whatever...go to the library, get online, research, read, read, read.

Well, I decided I wanted to know more about Jesus Christ so that's what I do. I find pictures of Him, books, articles, and read the Bible to learn His ways so they can become mine as much as possible. Onward, I continue on this journey.
Rambling!

I agree that going to the source and reading and meditating on the creative Word is key. After all, we have a rational soul, and we need to use it to learn about God. And we're each responsible for the growth of our own soul.
Smile, I'm not sure what distinctin you're making between religion, spirit and worship. Religion is what Christ taught. It's what He said to be, how He said you should behave, to relate to God.
I don't agree that religion is about ritual. Ritual is about imitating other people, not about thinking for oneself or believing for oneself and not about being in a relationship with the Creator. There's something about ritual that I find scary because it's so unthinking.
And what you're calling a love that leads to killing, I would call passion. Or, as you said, obsession. What's that passage that goes, "Love is not boastful..."?

I guess I'm just getting into semantics with all that religion/spirit stuff. I heard a sermon on it recently so I'm probably coming from that.

I just looked up religion in my dictionary and here's what I found.

Religtion: The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the outward expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety; as, ethical religions; monotheistic religions; natural religion; revealed religion; the religion of the Jews; the religion of idol worshipers.

n. Specifically, conformity in faith and life to the precepts inculcated in the Bible.

n. A monastic or religious order subject to a regulated mode of life; the religious state; as, to enter religion.

n. Strictness of fidelity in conforming to any practice, as if it were an enjoined rule of conduct.

The definition seems close to what I thought I was saying. I meant that one can conform to a practice and observe rites and ceremonies in an outward expression of piety and honor as in 'religion' without ever having experfienced a change in the spirit. Seems like real love occurs in the spirit, not in rites and ceremonies or outward expressions.

You're right about real love as described in the Bible. But that must be agape love to which human kind can only strive, but never consistently achieve. Human love seems so terribly imperfect and certainly seems to contain an element of self love which is possibly what leads to wars, etc.

Interesting stuff.

smile

"...one can conform to a practice and observe rites and ceremonies in an outward expression of piety and honor as in 'religion' without ever having experfienced a change in the spirit."

Isn't this precisely what's been wrong with the practicers of religion? People go through the motions, but never feel the spirit. To me, if the spirit isn't moved, it's not religion, but an empty shell.

"You're right about real love as described in the Bible. But that must be agape love to which human kind can only strive, but never consistently achieve."

I thought Agape was brotherly love, and something that's possible for us all to achieve? Maybe what's more difficult is spiritual love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by smilinize:
<strong>I meant that one can conform to a practice and observe rites and ceremonies in an outward expression of piety and honor as in 'religion' without ever having experfienced a change in the spirit. Seems like real love occurs in the spirit, not in rites and ceremonies or outward expressions.

Interesting stuff.

smile</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Smilin, this reminds me of my faith as a child. I was very religious, but didn't have the spirit. And I agree, this is interesting stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DJ:
<strong>"...one can conform to a practice and observe rites and ceremonies in an outward expression of piety and honor as in 'religion' without ever having experfienced a change in the spirit."

Isn't this precisely what's been wrong with the practicers of religion? People go through the motions, but never feel the spirit. To me, if the spirit isn't moved, it's not religion, but an empty shell.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You guys have spelled this out perfectly and I think you're both saying the same thing. I couldn't agree more!

DOn't know if you've ever read any of Joseph Girzone's books, but they're awesome. He talks about religion getting in the way of Christainity and loving one another. People are so focused on doing good church work for the sake of doing good church work, but forget the true connection for doing it in the first place. SOunds ridiculous, but it's true! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I was brought up Epicopalian and thought my faith was sound. Years later because of illness, many moves due to the military and stress with parents and siblings, I came to the conclusion that in order for me to do better with my life, I would have to turn my life totally over to Jesus.

From a Billy Graham Crusade and then searching my heart and soul for answers, I finally found and accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. I found a peace and direction in life I had never known before.

All life is stressful and difficult at times. The difference with Christ is---he'll be with you when stress and conflict come your way. His comfort and love have carried me through many rough times--my husband's auto-immune disease, betrayal of family and friends struggles with my writing profession and my husband's conflicts with his work.

In my heart, I know that I can't live a day, one moment, without His love and guidance.

Ann

I'm not at all sure having the Word on fire is a good thing except...some of the time. Isn't that what's meant by a time for every season? Sometimes the Word burns and other time simmers. It's all needed for the fire to continue. In Deut. it says everyone shall be judged according to their beliefs. I take that to mean that if one is of the ________ (your denomination) faith, they shall be judged according to how they lived their faith. God is a just God and I don't think I have a good understanding of that. But I accept His justness and I believe it.