Is death a ticket to heaven? If so... Why or why not?

Being my age I certainly hope so but doubt thats the case. I was raised Catholic and learned that there is Purgatory you go to for your sins and then after time elapses you go to heaven unless you've committed a mortal sin before you died like murder or suicide then you go straight to hell. (do not pass goal, do not collect $200.) But as a Born Again Christian I have been taught that even a murderer can go to heaven by merely confessing openly to God and begging for forgiveness before he dies. That to me doesn't seem fair and I don't believe it to be true but then what do I know? Good question Singbird, one with many answers I bet...

I know that this is not a popular belief among many Christians, but we all go to the Father when we die. Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

Even satan is being held in Heaven by Michael the Archangel.

After the Great White Throne Judgement, will some go to the "lake of fire" and some will stay in Paradise. The lake of fire is not someplace where you will see Uncle Joe frying lika a bacon. That is where the Soul will be blotted out eternally. This for a loved one as well. We were promised no more tears in Heaven, so therefore a loved one that didn't make it will be blotted out of our minds.

This is just a gist of what is in the Bible about what happens to us.

Love,
Cathi

Chatty,

I have to agree with you. If he does make it, just what will this murderer be wearing?

In Revelations it talks about the woven linen and how much of it depends on the works that we do for the Heavenly Father when we are on the earth.

Love and Blessings,
Cathi

I like to believe that there are steps to Heaven. We do lives over and over again until we "get it" -- each life we're supposed to learn something -- grow spiritually -- the more we learn -- the closer we get to God.

I think that's where our angels - or guides - come in -- if we listen to them - follow the signs -- we'll get to the "pearly gates" alot faster than if we choose to follow those that are here to sway us the other way -- like a test

I don't think excuses will get us there -- like saying "I used to be a nice person but everyone treated me so bad that I decided to be just as hard." I think God will say -- I didnt treat you bad -- my angels tried to show you the way -- but you chose poorly.

eventually -- we earn our wings ;-)

I am too busy living to be very concerned about the after life.

When I obey the one command of Jesus to love my neighbor as myself and the Lord my God with all my heart, mind, and spirit, I am already in heaven. And when I veer from that, I am already in hell.

Heaven and hell are for eternity and eternity has no beginning and no end so we are in the middle of it all the time.
As Kris Kristophersen wrote and Janis Joplin sang, "If eternity's forever, life is just a one night stand."

Good topic.
smile

(Smilinize said): "I am too busy living to be very concerned about the after life." I agree.

I believe I'll come back to earth at least one more time because my work here won't be done in this lifetime.

To me, the question isn't where I end up, but how I get there.

I have strayed far beyond the scriptural tenets and yet have continously come face to face with the Mercy and Compassion of God. He has crept into my dark and hellish nightmare of a life and has sat Himself right down there in that hellhole with me, cradling me, nourrishing me, forgiving me back to life and light.

I cannot ever fathom that this same God would not be able to see into the heart of each and every soul that meets Him on that final journey and KNOW that soul back into His loving, merciful kingdom.

One thing I know with absolute certainty is that I am and will never be in a position to decide or judge any other human being in that regard. But I do believe that I am in a position to help pray any soul into the Father's care and mercy.

My own fervant prayer is that I not die before I've truly learned to live abundantly and to love unconditionally and compassionately all of God's other children.

I am coming back to this. Been looking at it for a couple days. I need time to post my answer.

Friends, I was out for a few days, but I'll be back here too!

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

This is THE only way into Heaven...believing in Jesus Christ. No belief, No entry. If at the time of your death you believed, your ticket is golden.

"I know that this is not a popular belief among many Christians, but we all go to the Father when we die. Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

Even satan is being held in Heaven by Michael the Archangel."
----------

Hi Cathi,

I love you in the name of our Lord but I must reply to your post, as it is untrue. We all do not go to heaven when we die, unless we believe Jesus died on the cross, arose and is the son of God then we are saved. (Romans 10:9)

Not to give Satan too much credit, here is additional info on your comment that he is in Heaven with God:

Satan is not in Heaven. If you look to Luke 10:18, Jesus replied to other men (approx. 70 that had come back from the towns Jesus had sent them to heal the sick and to declare Jesus' arrival), "I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you." Another text which confirms this passage is Isaiah 14:12, which says that Satan has fallen from heaven (Isaiah 14:12)

Here is a good article about this topic: http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=186

We do not live by the Old Testament but by the New Testament, as it is the fulfillment of Jesus' birth and death, who died for our sins (the good news!)

I'm also not sure what you are referring to when you pointed to Ecclesiastes 12:6-7. Although it says in verse 7 …"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it," this is just one text taken out of context. Yes, we will return to God, after we have accepted Him into our hearts.

Although the Old Testament has a lot of historical facts and great wisdom and poetry and even shapes the world of the New Testament, we live by the New Testament which is the fulfillment of the stories/prophecies of the Old Testament.

For more information about the New Testament, go here: http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2077
I've also found this site very useful: www.GotQuestions.org but please feel free to confer with your pastor for confirmation. Hope this has been useful.

In love,

I still prefer to let God be God...not one of us here possesses even a glimmer of the profound depth of love or mercy that is God. Jesus didn't die on the cross so we could throw that in the unbeliever's face and banish him/her to hell forever according to our own narrow interpretation of "the rules". We have to read mercy and love into God's Word or else we have missed the message entirely. Unconditional love means that we ALL are loved simply because we exist, not because of what we do or believe. The doing and believing determine how we express our lives and purpose, but they do not affect God's love for us...it's already there, no matter what.

There are too many unanswered questions to automatically relegate non-believers to hell. There are too many people (and you don't have to look past your own neighborhood to find them) who live in oppressive hunger and poverty, and whose spirits are battered down by hatred and violence. They may never know Jesus or have the opportunity to believe in Him. But I firmly believe that the merciful Father I know and love will run out of the gates of Heaven to greet each and every one of them/us and hug us close to His heart and welcome us all Home. And whatever else has transpired on earth, our eyes will be opened and the veils torn apart and we will know Him as Home.

Not one of us knows the heart and situation of another person, or is in a position to even begin to judge another human being's relationship with God, either now or at the moment of death. Let's just let God be God and stop painting Him in the colour of our own feeble inability to love unconditionally. As much as I treasure and strive to live by the Bible, I refuse to use those scriptures to justify the eternal condemnation of another human being. The mind of God is so much wiser and compassionate than we could ever imagine. He will know the "why" of who we were and couldn't be here on earth. Let's leave it all in His hands and get on with the business of unconditionally loving others the way we're supposed to here and now.

The overriding message of the entire Bible is MERCY. Without love and mercy at the root of our being, our words are empty.

It's interesting to see the diversity of beliefs. I understand this is a sensitive and extensive subject, and respect each opinion and belief expressed here.

Here's a bit of what I've learned from the Bible:

1. God created man from the dust in the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul-Genesis 2:7

2. When a person dies-the dust returns to the earth as it was; and the spirit(Breath of life God gave him) returns unto God who gave it-Ecclesiastes 12:7, see also Gen. 3:19

3. According to Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 the dead can't help us. They have no part in anything under the sun. They don't know what their loved ones are doing. They can't think, help, guide us, communicate with us, etc. The day they die, their thoughts perish-Psalm 146:4

4. Jesus referred to the unconscious state of the dead as "sleep". (John 11:11-14)

5. Jesus promised that whoever believes in Him will rise again. John 11:25

5.Those who accepted Christ as their Savior will rise at the sound of the trumpet when Jesus comes. (1 Thesalonians 4:16,17)

~We decide our eternal destiny by choosing or not to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior- John 3:16 "...that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life";
And Jesus said: "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned" Mark 16:16.

~Accepting him as such also means we obey HIS commandments and serve him wholeheartedly.- "If you love me, keep MY comamndments"-John 14:15.

~Each person's reward is not at death, but at Christ's return-"And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be"-Rev. 22:12

God loves us all, His son died for all, regardless of our differences in opinion or belief. I pray this discussion proves healthy and helps us seek God's answers to our questions. God bless!

If any of you is interested, I found this site, which has a more detailed explanation on the subject:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/study_guides.asp

Click on the lesson "Are the dead really dead?"

There are so many beliefs on this subject and each seems to be supported by Scripture or other writings.
I guess mid life is the time when we have to all look inside our hearts and examine our spirits to determine what we truly believe then pursue it in the way we live our lives.

At this point, living is all we can do.
smile

I was raised Catholic. I grew up believing I had to "earn" my way to heaven. I was also told that if I confessed my sins, then talked back to mom and got hit by a car and killed...I would more than likely go to pergotury. The only way I could go to heaven was to leave the confessional and drop dead.

Unconfessed sins kept me from heaven. And trust me, you know the sins of youth: picking on my brother and sisters, talking back to Mom and Dad, taking the last piece of cake and lying when Mom asks "who had the last piece of cake and didn't clean the plate?" This was quite a cross to carry as a little kid, but it's what I believed. I was a candidate for purgotury no matter how you looked at it. And purgatory was the heaven and hell limbo. I could go either way at that point.

My childhood God was one of fear.

My adult God is one of love! In my mid-twenties I went through some struggles: infertility, suicide death of a friend, and my husband's health problems caused by Diabetes. It was at that time Ross and I went to a minister friend for help.

Since that time, this is what I believe:

I am going to heaven because I believe in God, I beleive He sent His only son to die for me and I believe He rose from the dead to save me from my sins.

I believed these things before, but I didn't know they gave me eternal life. I thought I had to "earn" it.

How in the world can anyone be "good enough" to "earn" their way to heaven when you take into consideration what Jesus did for us?

Knowing God has a place for me in heaven gives me tremendous freedom.

Now, some people say, "so you mean all you have to do is believe and you can go kill someone and go to heaven. Just because you believe?"

My reply to that is that when you believe as I do, you do all you possibly can to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, try to be more Christ-like, and love your neighbor as yourself. If one is doing those things they are not going to kill someone.

As far as judging others for what they believe. That is not what God wants me to do. I need to leave that to Him. All He wants me to do is LOVE everyone, regardless of our beliefs. It's really quite simple.

He doesn't care if my neighbor believes something else. His only care is that I love them.

We can't change people,. That's not up to us. But I believe loving people can make them wonder what we are up to. Especially if they are the downtrodden. If you can share that your love comes from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ it may make them curious.

The changing we need to leave to the Holy Spirit. And that's a whole other topic.

Thanks to everyone for sharing in this thread. It's such a good one!

AMEN. Yes, the Holy Spirit is another topic all in itself. Thanks everyone for sharing as well. I love you all ... so don't kill the messenger, okay? :-) But I love my God with all my heart and just wanted to share HIs wonderful news. Thanks for the question.

Dots, I appreciate your response, as well as all others.

I agree with you about going to heaven because you accept the salvation God gives us through Jesus's sacrifice, I agree with you regarding loving God and others, not judging, letting the Holy Spirit work in our lives, etc.

The original question is regarding what many believe happens when we die . Do we go to heaven?

If it were so, why is there a need for resurrection?

Sabra, everyone here who loves God loves Him with all their hearts and souls and also wants to share the Good News...I have loved God since I was a child, and that faith has been tempered and tested by more agony than I can write here (but most of it's in my book).

I used to live my life "by the Book", almost killing myself (literally) trying to do the right thing and follow the rules right to the letter of the Scriptural law. It wasn't until I was (again literally) born again in the ICU after a suicide attempt that my eyes were open to the Truth that would set me free...that I am loved unconditionally.

I still believe in the Bible, and I love every word and every morsel of love and mercy that I now read within every word. But I can no longer go back to believing that life (or God) is as "black and white" "right or wrong" as I did before that epiphany in the ICU. It would be impossible for me to go back to believing that there's no such thing as grey area where God is concerned. Because I have lived most of my life in the grey area, and I know with absolute certainty that I am not nor will I ever be beyond redemption. Not only that, but I know with all my heart that just as much as you love God and love to share His wonderful news, God is infinitely more in love with us. And in that powerful but vulnerable (yes, vulnerable) hunger to be in a tender, loving, personal relationship with us, He uses every possible means to reach us. That means that He wears different faces and allows Himself to be called different names, because He is so in love with ALL of His children, that He will do whatever it takes to reach each and every one exactly where they are.

I don't understand all the ramifications of that, I don't pretend to, but I know with every fiber of my being and soul that this Almighty Creator God stoops as low as He has to to sit in the same dirt and muck and filth that any one of His children sits in, and Loves them right there, just the way they are.

That depth of Love is the Good News. That compassionate God with dirt underneath His fingernails is the Good News. That Healing Love that shows Itself in a multitude of creative impossible-to-resist loving ways is the Good News.

There's no shooting of messengers here. Just other perspectives, other voices crying out in the wilderness that there's more to this God than we could ever imagine and we cannot ever box Him into what we think He ought to be. We each bring our experiences and insights to the table and together we build additional epiphany and "food for thought" for each other.

[ July 07, 2005, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Eagle Heart ]

Dotsie and Eagle -- wow!

I haven't read the entire thread yet - but was very moved by your entries!

I went to an Easter play up at the Christian playhouse in PA a few years back (you know the one, Dotsie)...

And I'll never forget when Jesus was in the upper room with his disciples...and you know that the very words of a man facing his death are pointed...and he said to his disciples, "by THIS all men shall know that you are my disciples...when you have LOVE for one another".

WOW. I was changed forever. I realized that he could have said 1,000 things....

"They will know you are my disciples when...

you memorize the bible...
go to church every day...
live a holy life..., etc, etc, etc"

But no. That's not what he said.

And that is MY philisophy...that my job is to love people right where they are at. What greater gift can we give someone then to love them unconditionally as the Father loves us!

God's love doesn't demand a change...
It produces a change...

Praise HIM in this place!

d.

I love that this forum does not bash people who differ in thoughts or beliefs! This place is a safe-haven for all women -- seeking life, seeking friendship, seeking comfort.

which brings up something i've always wondered about --

if the only way to heaven is through Jesus -- is that saying that the Aztec's, Egyptian's, Mayan's, Chinese, Indians, Iraqians, etc etc -- didn't/won't go to heaven when they died/die ???

they believed in their God -- they were good people that raised their families to worship and love and respect -- what about all the tribes in the jungles that have never heard of our christian God ??

it would seem to me that someone believing that only THEIR way is "THE" way is standing in judgement of others --- is feeling superior to others ---

my God is a loving and kind and forgiving God -- he doesnt judge by religion -- I don't think he cares about your "religion" -- he welcomes all who have good hearts -- who love their fellow man -- tries to raise their children to be good people --feels true sorrow when they've done something that they shouldnt have (when they've been "human")

i also believe that the bible is the greatest history book ever written -- but it has been changed and re-written many times to fit the whims (and power) of Kings and priests through the ages --

i try to live by the ten commandments and the golden rule and if i can accomplish that - i believe my God will be content with me

and yes Songbird - i think we go to heaven when we die -- it just might take a few trips before we get to stay there ;-)

Good question, Lionspaaw, and I guess that's what I mean, and who I have in mind when I suspect that God wears many faces and allows Himself to be called many names.

We here in North America often assume without even a second thought that when God made us in His image, He made us "white-skinned"...but at the time that Scripture was written, I doubt that anyone had ever seen a white-skinned person before...everyone at that time probably would have been black or olive-skinned, and yet we in North America rarely think of God looking anything but "white-skinned" and tend to expect everyone else to perceive His image the same way we do. But if we're ALL made in His image, and some of us are black-skinned, olive-skinned, red-skinned, yellow-skinned, then we have to acknowledge that He must be so much more multi-faceted and creative than we can imagine.

I think that religion or adherance to any one set of religious tenets cannot possibly be the sole basis for every single person's relationship with God...it might be for ME, but I can't presume to judge that it's the same and only choice for every other human being on earth. This thing with God, it has to be more of a heart connection, a soul connection that transcends all these human limitations. Otherwise our insistence that there is one and only one way to God automatically leaves out far too many of our other brothers and sisters all over the world, and I don't think that could ever be a loving Father's intent. But that's just my humble take on it.

Smile:
One of this forum’s greatest advantages is that we can all share our different views. And I’m sure we can benefit from these discussions. I understand it can get confusing to read so many different views. When you wonder what of all you hear or read to believe, pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you as you study the Word of God. I believe it’s the safest way to go.

Eagle:
In the Bible we find many names for Jesus/God. I understand that God, in his infinite love for mankind, wants us to be able to relate with him in the different aspects of our lives. The good shepherd, the light of the world, the father, the Way, the Life, etc.; each name conveys us different aspects of His love and care for us; each name will minister to us in different situations too.

He came to be among us, sinners, he took the humiliation, the criticism, the pain, the agony that separation from His father caused by the burden of sins he bore, to show us how to live and love; love Him and our fellow men. And that is the core of his message: LOVE. He even instructed us to love our enemies. What’s great about his message is that he not only tells us to, he showed us how to. Isn’t it a blessing to have such a loving God?

Posted by Danita: “God’s love doesn’t demand a change, it produces a change!”

Danita: I agree with you. When we prayerfully consider the depth of His love and his teachings, we can’t be the same. His way, his love, all he went through to show mankind HIS LOVE for us… once you get to know him personally, you can never be the same. When you KNOW him you’re moved to love him. Once you love him, you’re moved by his love to serve him.

Lionspaaw:
I respect your view on the subject of death/heaven.
About your question regarding others who never had the opportunity to learn about God, I believe they are judged by their faithfulness to what they knew/learned. I believe it is contrary to God’s loving character to judge someone otherwise.

May God bless each one as we try to dig deep into His Word, and learn to love each other regardless of our different opinions.

Lion, when Ross and I were doing youth ministry we had a Catholic priest, rabbi and Presbyterian minister talk about their beliefs. It was so much fun to have such diversity in the room. I believe forums like that and forums like this stretch our minds, make us ask questions, and seek God's will individually. This is vital for growth to take place.

Someone asked the Presbterian minister your very same question. (I loved working with youth because they put it all out there. Inhibitions hadn't settled within yet.) Anyway, his response was the same as songs. How can one be judged if they haven't had the opportunity to hear?

Eagle mentioned being worn out by living her life by the book. That was the faith of my youth. I obeyed because I was scared. Now I take great pleasure in trying to live by Christ's example. It feels so much better.

Thanks to everyone for sharing such intimacies.

"So we all love that which we consider holy. But you must be aware that your God's "news" is not the intended holy path for all others; your message is not necessarily mine. Most of us can share and discuss our beliefs without proselytizing, but I believe you've crossed the line."
---
I'm not trying to convert anyone. The purpose of my joining this forum/website was because I thought it was Christian based. I did not realize their were others with different beliefs in other religions. But I will stand firm on my words and have noticed that I've offended others because of what I've presented from the bible. Why I was singled out from my quote, I have no idea, when others on this forum carry the same beliefs (beliefs in Jesus Christ). I had assumed everyone in this forum belived in the same God.

Danita: "Praise HIM in this place!"

I agree!

I could go on and on to answer the questions here, like "what about the others who do not know Jesus" or "others who have beliefs in other religions and worship those Gods but are good people" and "he doesn't judge by religion" If this is a Christian forum/website, I believe the answer has already been provided.

If you would like to contact me to discuss offline, I would be happy to. But this will be my last post.

Thanks to those who stood firm in the word and didn't compromise their Christian beliefs.

I have experienced this forum, not as a Christian forum, but as a loving place where faith is supported in whatever form it is practiced. I would hope that no one feels singled out or unaccepted for standing on their faith, but that all faiths are equally accepted.

The point of the boomer forum is not to convince, but to share. Posting from the heart is encouraged and differing viewpoints are respected. No one opinion is more valid than the other.

I have enjoyed reading the posts about what happens after death. It seems to be a very impassioned and important subject as we enter the second half of life.

smile

[ July 07, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Eagleheart
Your beauty is unparallel. God is love. Within that is everything. All sin...all pain...all thoughts of fear....gone,never to be judged, for they vanish in the light of love. To return to the light at the end of our journey is love. Love never changes!

To all the rest of you lovely ladies....may the light of love forever rest in your hearts revealing your beauty and forever bringing you peace!

The light remains within everyone...the steps we take revealing pain, which is just the absence of light...but that core of light...that seed of light that birthed us will forever remain within, the light of the heart...that forever serves despite darkness...despite pain...despite diversity within religious convictions.

Perception is either the absence of light or the fullness of light and within that lies the reasons for wars and pain. Diversity of perception, the enemy to truth and yet the learning ground to understand the love and to become more of the light.

With love
Leigha

Sabra: You're not alone dear! It's happened before. At one point or another more than one has been misunderstood, etc. Please feel free to post anytime you wish.

Dear friends:
This is an open forum and we all have the same right to share and comment freely without judging or embarrasing others.

We certainly do not expect every participant to view things exactly as we do regarding faith or any other topic we choose to discuss. Still, we should be able to expose our ideas without hurting each other . I don't think this has been the intent of any post.

And voluntary participation in the threads is one plus here!

There will always be different opinions! Maybe we can choose our words carefully and lovingly?

After all we are boomer sisters, right! And as a family we care for each other.

Let us come with an open mind, learn and grow as we share!

I do appreciate each of your responses to this thread and your willingess to share. After all, that's what we're here for!

Try this on for size ladies...

The 'resurrection' is the lifting of the spiritual energy within to a higher vibration that supercedes pain and troubles. It is meeting the spirit within.

We all contain the seed of light that is God. What is God's returns to God...what is pain vanishes in the everpresent presence of the greatest light itself...(that's physics and spiritual law) ie science. ie Pain and light live on different vibratory levels...they can't meed, in physics that would be impossible.

Theology is the emotional and logical understanding of God, when one looks at the physics of God...the elements of light, its componenet and make-up, one can sift through the theology and bits of data that are peceived differently by many and come to understand that light itself has an absence of darkness and that within us lies the kernal of light that began our ever present journey of life.

Life itself is light...and the light is love with varying matrixes of energy ie grace, love, compassion, beauty, honour, integrity, truth, all varying aspects of the light or it could be said they are all different aspects of light at an energetic level.

Resurrection is basically the resurrection of the light within to a higher vibration...

Heaven is the 'resurrection' which is infinite.

The journey is the reconnection to the light within...'the resurrection'.

Thought you ladies might enjoy playing with that...is it a truth or just a peception...only the heart knows for we are all living in different vibratory levels of energy which occur because of all the experiences we've had and how much pain colours our perceptions or opens our perceptions.

We are all on the journey toward light. Isn't it marvelous that there is no judgement within the light. Judgement only occurs because one perception differs from another.

Each layer of consciousness lives at a different vibratory level of light and therefore each level of perception houses a different vibratory speed and thus we have a world of varying opinions.

Scientifically speaking if we looked at the physics of light and saw God through that language wouldn't that be interesting! Theology has power because it can have no differing of opinions even thought it is an opinion of how one sees God.

Have fun with it ladies...don't take it too seriously for we are all love and light...the only difference is how we get there and the differing experiences we all have to learn and understand the truth of who we all are...ultimately...love.

With love
Leigha

as far as i know - no one here has actually sat down at the dining room table with God face to face and heard his views on the subject but i have to assume he would be very pleased with ALL our views -- and supporting the views of others even if they are different than our own

after all -- we're discussing HIM

and i agree Dotsie -- these forums are WONDERFUL and i learn so much from everyone's opinion

Leigha -- I have printed your post out and will sit quietly later and ponder this as it's a little too "heavy" to comprehend while my dogs are fighting over my lap

It always grieves me, and has been weighing heavy on my heart all afternoon, when any dynamic discussion on God and spirituality leaves anyone feeling hurt, especially hurt enough to leave.

I for one LOVE this forum and my sisters here precisely because of the way we are able to share and celebrate our individual beliefs and values while also celebrating the right of each and every other woman here to celebrate HER individual beliefs (or disbeliefs) and values.

Unity in diversity. We have found healing in our ability to find our unity in diversity. We share and listen with/to one another and even when there is disagreement, we know we have heard and been heard and that caring respect allows us to find a way to not only co-exist, but to thrive here.

We have found our voices and our sense of sisterhood strengthening into a powerfully healing force as we have continued to create this safe place to "just be" with each other...allowing ourselves to not be torn apart by our differences of opinions, but instead being willing to listen, hear, sometimes challenge or question for clarification and ultimately respect - NOT to accept if it doesn't fit - but still accept the freedom of the individual poster to own her tidbit of personal experience and insight as valid for her.

NEVER do I ever share anything here in any remote expectation that ANYONE else ought to ever believe what I believe in. If you do, great, if you don't, I'm overjoyed that you feel the safety and freedom here to be you and that you feel strong enough in your freedom to be, that you are then able to allow me the same freedom to be me. And if I've ever come across as otherwise, then I do apologize profusely. Because my overriding concern here is that this be a safe place not just for my beliefs and my vision, but a safe place for EVERY woman who stumbles across our doorstep.

Likewise, I appreciate that nobody here shares what they share with the heavy expectation that I believe what they believe. That's love, sisters. That's healing. That's respect. That's what Dotsie envisioned, what God envisioned when He whispered that He wanted her to create a safe place for our voices to be heard. Not one voice, not one opinion, not one belief, but ALL voices of ALL women, coming together in respect and love and freedom to be safely all that each of us is and is becoming. To find common ground amidst the diversity, to find new possibilities in each other's experienced wisdom, new epiphanies in each other's insights, new growth inside of those new insights, and new creative and loving ways to express our own voices.

IMHO, THAT's who we are, and why we have found such sisterhood and family here.

Forgive me for this long and impassioned post...this has been weighing me down all afternoon and I just needed to share my little tidbit of diversity.

[ July 07, 2005, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Eagle Heart ]

Eagle -

i feel so bad that you're being stressed by this

hmmmm how do i phrase this ----- no one here has asked anyone or wants anyone to leave - but if someone feels that they can shell it out but won't accept having it thrown back at them -- then they really haven't grasp the "sisterhood thing"

i would NEVER discuss politics or religion anywhere but here -- because here i know that some will agree with me and some will shake their heads at me and some will down right say she is off her rocker -- but i will still be accepted for my opinion and as a fellow sister

when someone comes right out and states - "as it is untrue" in response to someone's opinion or states "this is THE only way" then they are going to step on some toes -- and if they feel the forum isnt a Christian forum because one or two respond with "OUCH that hurt" -- then like i said -- perhaps we should just realize -- not EVERYONE will fit in here

please don't fret over this anymore my dear Eagle Heart -- this is a safe haven -- and anyone who has spent 5 minutes here and cant feel the love and support here and runs the first time a little fat hits the skillet -- well -- what more can i say

you keep spreading your wings sweetheart -- i, for one, am grateful for you !

I believe that any hurt that may have come from the site is from misunderstanding. Though it may be Christlike in that it is filled with love, this is not a Christian site.

Because of that love, expression of all faiths is encouraged and all opinions are respected. Because we are accepted for what we are and where we are we learn from one another.

No one wants anyone to be hurt, but our ability to express ourselves freely in a loving atmosphere is what makes this site special. Instead of eliminating our differences, we celebrate them and that is what makes us strong.

smile

[ July 07, 2005, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Thank you lionspaaw, leigha, smilinize and Eagle Heart for your love and acceptance of all the women here. Dotsie's vision has always been one of love and inclusion, not cliques and exclusion.

For anyone who is unclear on the difference between sharing and proselytizing:

SHARING is when new member SuziQ says she believes the path to salvation and nirvana is to stand on your head all day and eat ketchup. While few of us may follow her spiritual leanings, we accept that it has meaning for her, and we respect her belief system whether it's ours or not.

PROSELYTIZING is if SuziQ says we all must stand on our head and eat ketchup or we'll be damned to eternal hell (which for me would be standing on my head all day and eating ketchup )

PROSELYTIZING is also if SuziQ tells JaneDoeQ that she has the religion wrong, because JaneDoeQ eats her ketchup with a spoon and SuziQ uses a straw. To "prove" all her points, SuziQ quotes passages from the Divine Book of Standing On Your Head and Eating Ketchup.

Sharing is good; proselytizing is bad. Sharing says "This is what I believe"; proselytizing says, "This is what you should believe (or else!)" Almost everyone in this Forum understands the difference. We are here for each other in love and acceptance, not because we parrot an identical belief system, but because WE ARE HERE, all of us women trying to make our lives and the world a better place, all of us sisters in the process of BECOMING.

Love conquers all!

Meredithbead, that was awesome! Well said. Using ketchup and straws and head-standing was a brilliant way of getting the point across. It should almost be included in some kind of introduction to who we are here.

Thanks Eagle! Ya think we can enrave it on a large gold plaque? With fancy purple letters, of course.

I pray all women who come to this forum feel loved and accepted regardless of their views on controversial matters.

You betcha and amen to that Songbird...

Hi Ladies,

I went away to spend some time with a friend of mine that is dying from cancer of the bile duct. While there, we just spent the time together talking, reminescing(SP), and basically enjoyed the time together.

It would have been a big hindrance in this final time together with her for me to ask the question. Are you sure you know Jesus and have Him in your Heart? No way, I want my friend to go in peace. We've discussed The Bible, the spiritual, and Christ in the past. The Holy Spirit is powerful enough, He doesn't need me .

I can go on and on, but the bottom line is this, God and God alone knows what we are thinking and feeling. I believe in planting seeds and letting the Holy Spirit do the growing, not bombarding someone to believe the way I do.

I can try to go on with someone that doesn't necessarily agree with me and use every scare tactic that I can come up with. What will that accomplish? That person can tell me that she believes as I do, just to get me off her back. In the meantime, whatever peace she has had is exhausted, leaving room for bitterness and resentment. No, this doesn't accomplish anything at all.

I can elaborate more of what I said in my earlier post, but I am going to need some time. I still believe that everyone goes to God after they die. I still stick by:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Bottom line, God is fair. And I believe that after the resurrection there will be a judgement and this word does not necessarily mean condemnation, this word judgement also means rewards. God is fair!

quote:

---

That depth of Love is the Good News. That compassionate God with dirt underneath His fingernails is the Good News. That Healing Love that shows Itself in a multitude of creative impossible-to-resist loving ways is the Good News

---

Well said.

Cathi

Not for Elisha it wasn't.

Thistle Cove Farm,

Pardon my ignorance, but you lost me. Can you elaborate?

Thanks,
Cathi

TCF,

You know when we get a good nights sleep and things are clearer in the morning? Now I understand what you are saying.

What happens in each instance to anyone that seems "contradictory" in the Biblical sense. There is a purpose that God has for it, and usually to Glorify Him.

I suppose that is where Faith comes in as well. This is just my opinion.

Cheers,
Cathi

Meredith, I plan on using that post on the testimonials page. Thank you.

Hi Thistle: I appreciate your comment but did not get what you mean regarding Elisha . Can you please add more to this? Thanks and please, do forgive me!

Thank YOU Dotsie. I am honored.

BTW, just for the record in case this thread finds itself in outerspace somewhere, I did mention that "If you would like to contact me to discuss offline, I would be happy to." :-)

Thought I'd share this perspective:

"It is quite apparent to the seeing mind that a man's spirit is something very different from his physical body.

"The spirit is changeless, indestructible. The progress and development of the soul, the joy and sorrow of the soul, are independent of the physical body.

"If we are caused joy or pain by a friend, if a love prove true or false, it is the soul that is affected. If our dear ones are far from us--it is the soul that grieves, and the grief or trouble of the soul may react on the body.

"Thus, when the spirit is fed with holy virtues, then is the body joyous; if the soul falls into sin, the body is in torment!

"When we find truth, constancy, fidelity, and love, we are happy; but if we meet with lying, faithlessness, and deceit, we are miserable.

"These are all things pertaining to the soul, and are not bodily ills. Thus, it is apparent that the soul, even as the body, has its own individuality. But if the body undergoes a change, the spirit need not be touched. When you break a glass on which the sun shines, the glass is broken, but the sun still shines! If a cage containing a bird is destroyed, the bird is unharmed! If a lamp is broken, the flame can still burn bright!

"The same thing applies to the spirit of man. Though death destroy his body, it has no power over his spirit--this is eternal, everlasting, both birthless and deathless.

"As to the soul of man after death, it remains in the degree of purity to which it has evolved during life in the physical body, and after it is freed from the body it remains plunged in the ocean of God's Mercy.

"From the moment the soul leaves the body and arrives in the Heavenly World, its evolution is spiritual, and that evolution is: The approaching unto God."

--from Baha'i writings

Soul and spirit are used interchangeably, but are not exactly the same. Here's a definition of "Soul."

SOUL The spiritual, rational, and immortal part in man; that part of man which enables him to think, and which renders him a subject of moral government; -- sometimes, in distinction from the higher nature, or spirit, of man, the so-called animal soul, that is, the seat of life, the sensitive affections and phantasy, exclusive of the voluntary and rational powers; -- sometimes, in distinction from the mind, the moral and emotional part of man's nature, the seat of feeling, in distinction from intellect; -- sometimes, the intellect only; the understanding; the seat of knowledge, as distinguished from feeling. In a more general sense, "an animating, separable, surviving entity, the vehicle of individual personal existence." Tylor. "The eyes of our souls only then begin to see, when our bodily eyes are closing."
Energy; courage; spirit; fervor; affection, or any other noble manifestation of the heart or moral nature; inherent power or goodness.
A human being; a person; -- a familiar appellation, usually with a qualifying epithet; as, poor soul.
A pure or disembodied spirit.

Here's a definition of Spirit.

The vital principle or animating force within living beings. Incorporeal consciousness. Considered as departing from the body of a person at death. Spirit The Holy Spirit. A supernatural being, as: An angel or a demon.
A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon.
A fairy or sprite.
The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: "Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit." The essential nature of a person or group. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.
An inclination or tendency of a specified kind: "Her actions show a generous spirit." A causative, activating, or essential principle: A mood or an emotional state: The guests were in high spirits. A particular mood or an emotional state characterized by vigor and animation: "sang with spirit." Strong loyalty or dedication: "team spirit." The predominant mood of an occasion or a period: "The spirit of 1776"
The actual though unstated sense or significance of something: the spirit of the law. An alcohol solution of an essential or volatile substance. Often used in the plural with a singular verb.
spirits An alcoholic beverage, especially distilled liquor.

In the original language of the Bible, the word for 'spirit, breath, and life are the same.

Smilinize said:

quote:

---

[/B] ]Because of that love, expression of all faiths is encouraged and all opinions are respected. Because we are accepted for what we are and where we are we learn from one another.

---

Religious faith is more about the heart than the mind. I shared the Baha'i quote about life after death because it was a perspective that I didn't see in the preceding 4 pages and felt that it contributed to the discussion.

I don't think that dictionary definitions help in religious discussions.

I'm sorry the definitions were not helpful.

There seemed to be a lot of discussion of both the soul and the spirit and it seemed that the definitions might help clarify the differences.

The definitions were for all and no one in particular. They can be deleted if they are problematic.

smile

Smile, thanks for the definition.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Songbird:
If any of you is interested, I found this site, which has a more detailed explanation on the subject:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/study_guides.asp

Click on the lesson "Are the dead really dead?"

---

I found this study guide helpful too.

I wonder... How does your perception of what happens when we die affect your everyday life?

smile, I found the definitions most helpful. I've never seen the two back to back. I've printed them and will study with more intention tomorrow morning during my Bible Study time.

DJ, I also printed your reply to do the same.

Sometimes the information shared in these forums are too much for me to grasp quickly. I need time to mull them over and consider what to keep as my own.

Song, great question. knowing there is great sweet bliss in the afterlife gives me hope and erases my fear of death.

Because my beliefs about the afterlife are rooted in my faith, I do my best to live a joyful life in relationship with Jesus Christ and humankind. I may have been living a similar life prior to my current beliefs, but my intentions had no roots other than to be a "good person". Now my intentions are grounded in Christ.

[ July 17, 2005, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Dotsie ]

No matter how I try or what I am now being taught, I still have over 18 years of the Catholic church's teachings ingrained in my head and heart. I still believe there may be a heaven and hell and decided long ago to not take any chances, just in case there are so try to live a good, productive and caring life...I hurt no one intentionally. My one big fault is my temper and having a strong verbal arsenal to draw from... Keeping still and not striking back takes all the control I can muster at times.

[ July 17, 2005, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

On my way to Mom's I was listening to Christian radio and the announcer used an illustration that resonnated with me.

He compared Salvation to the pardons issued by Pres. Clinton just before he left office. The pardons were questioned as bribes because some of the pardoned apparently offered monetary and other payment to Mr. Clinton. If he accepted, or it was offered to influence the pardon, then they were not pardons at all, but bribes.

Pardons are offered pro bono (something for nothing) with no expectations of anything in return whereas bribes are "quid pro quo," (something for something)

Salvation, like a pardon, is pro bono, something for nothing. If you offer God something in return it turns His free gift of salvation into a bribe and God is insulted.

He wants to GIVE us salvation for free, but I believe the gift of Love is so great that our desires change. We Want to follow Him. We want to keep his command and to love others as ourselves.

So we are free to do good things out of love for Him, but not required to as in payment for His Love (Salvation). There is nothing we can to do repay God for His Son or His Love.

I hope that's not too "religious." It just came to mind.
smile

[ July 18, 2005, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Dots... Isn't it sweet to know God and His love? It makes such a difference in my everyday life!

Chatty: I hear you!
Since I was a child I learned God's character is Love. There is nothing we can do to deserve the gift of salvation. And he rejoices when we obey his Word out of love, not out of fear.

Smile, that's a good example. Pardon is free or it's not pardon at all! And out of love for what Jesus did for us, we serve Him joyfully! Amen.

I have heard pardon and parole compared to being saved by Salvation or being saved by works.

You get a parole if you are an exemplary prisoner and you have obeyed all the rules. But if you are paroled, you have a record and you are still guilty. The parole can be revoked at any time and is automatically revoked if you commit another crime or disobey the rules.

But with a pardon as with salvation, your record is wiped clean and you are free with no fear of punishment.

It was a good analoby.
smile

Good analogy! It's so sweet to know Salvation is a gift. Otherwise, we would've never been able to attain it. I praise God for his wonderful gift.

HI Cathi

my apologies...it wasn't Elisha, it was Elijah in II Kings, Chapter 2 the story is told, verse eleven..."Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." I'm forever getting those two men confused. Another story...either Elisha or Elijah...yet again my memory fails...was mocked by a group of children because he was bald, a bear came from the woods and consumed the children. In this, and other Bible stories, we see mocking is a *serious* offense...especially when directed toward God's people.

But on to my explanation ---

Elijah and one other Biblical prophet, never experienced death. Biblical scholars believe these two men are those referenced in Revelation of St. John the Divine, Chapter Eleven, as those who return to Earth to be "God's" witnesses.

That's what I meant by saying it's not always the case one has to experience death to enter Heaven. Overwhelming this is the case but there are "two" exceptions...*smile*.

Good point, Sandra.

Elijah and Enoch are in heaven without knowing death. They represent those who will be alive at the moment of Christ's return. Moses was taken to heaven after death. He represents those who will be resurrected when the Lord returns!

THANKS Songbird...Enoch is the other man.

Okay...what's my daily prayer?

"Please God, let it be menopause and not Alzheimers!"

You're welcome, TCF!

And I like your prayer!

Oh yeah Songbird...if you need to use my prayer, feel free although it *does* get a LOT of use from this end! --imagine a smiley face here--