I love this topic. I immediately thought of Ephesians too. I remember studying this in a Bible study when I was younger. Some women had the attitude "no man's going to rule me". Well that really isn't what Paul is saying. Here's my interpretation:

First of all, the verse preceding what we are to do as wives states, "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ."

Then it is followed by how we are to submit, etc.

After that Paul states "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, etc...

Paul uses more words instructing husbands about how to love their wives than he uses instructing us to love our hubbies.

It all goes back to outdoing one another with kindness. If that is the goal of each spouse then marriage is a precious relationship that needs sweet, tender, self-sacrificing care by both partners.

I would love to hear men discuss this passage. Wouldn't you?

I've been pondering this topic. And while this might be slightly off-topic, I think it's interesting to note that on reflection I realized that my number one criteria for a husband had nothing to do with any feminist ideals, but revolved around washing the dishes.

I'm serious. Washing dishes was a HUGE issue for me. I had to do all of the dishes for a family of six (breakfast, lunch AND supper) all by myself every night (except my birthday) for nine years. Now there's where some feminist-inspired ideals might come into play...while I was in there doing dishes alone for two hours every night, my brothers were reclining in the living room watching TV.

I grew to HATE dishes with a passion. And I had no use for a man who expected me to do them (and any other housework) simply because I was the woman. It became imperative that any man of mine HAD to agree to help with the dishes...I refused to even consider a guy if it looked suspiciously like I'd spend the rest of my life washing his dishes...and I quickly ran the other way anytime any Christian guy started spouting Ephesians at me as justification for those expectations!

It took me 36 years before I met the man. Not only does he do the dishes, but most of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, ironing, and bathrooms as well...willingly and lovingly! I know, a man in a million. An incredible gift. And I know it!

Ironically, after my breakdown and enforced retirement, I had to fight with him (rage with him actually) to allow me to take over, or at least participate, in some of those household chores. Now we're much more of a partnership, and work very well and happily together. And I don't mind doing dishes anymore. As long as I'm doing them out of shared responsibility and not because I'm the woman.

[ September 16, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Eagle Heart ]

Yes EagleHeart, he DOES sound like one-in-a-million, that husband of yours...a definite keeper! What a blessing for you. I so agree with Dotsie...if the two of you in the marriage spend your time trying to "out-love" the other, how can power or lack of it be much of an issue?? He who loves the most, has the least power in a relationship, so I guess my husband and I must love fairly equally, as power hasn't come into it in over 6 years of marriage.
As for dishes...that SO makes me smile! One of my pet peeves..(long since let go of),is my husband's propensity for leaving dirty dishes in the sink-one by one- when the dishwasher (empty) is directly next to the sink!! I have NEVER been able to break him of it, so I just move them into the dishwasher like a good dishwasher fairy and go on with life! I guess every silk purse eventually shows it's sow's ear ways, eh?? Blessings, ladies. Sera.

The problem with having such an amazing hubby is that I can never talk about him in any of my circles of girlfriends. In the past, it's made some of them so envious that they've come right out and asked me not to talk about him around them. And somehow having such a wonderful hubby seems to invalidate any angst or anxiety I might have...I wasn't allowed to complain about him at all! Let's face it, even the most seemingly-perfect man has quirks that drive us up the wall! Mine is no different. But they would just tell me I'm so lucky (which I freely admit) that I shouldn't feel any of those feelings.

I ended up feeling so left out of those circles and conversations, that I just stopped going out anymore.

Eagle Heart...That's crazy! Everyone's husband has faults..as does everyone's wife! (Though don't let that get around... )It's a shame you couldn't share your marriage with your friends..one would think he had to beat you so you'd have something to yelp about! :My sister is blessed with a husband like yours. He likes to cook, so prepares dinner EVERY night for her..she hasn't cooked one night since she married him! And I'm talking gourmet meals! I'm lucky...my husband doesn't demand a lot from me with regards to cooking/housekeeping. We eat out a lot and I work full time, so he knows it is what it is. It's clean enough not to have the Health Board condemn us, but I wouldn't want Architectural Digest showing up with a photo crew! *LOL* Blessings....S.

[ September 16, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Sera ]

Thanks, Sera. Something tells me we'd get along just great! The house is clean enough, but let's hope that Oprah doesn't come knocking on my door without a day's notice!

Hubby started out doing everything for much the same reason as your sister's husband...he was retired and loves to cook, and needed to keep active. I worked very long hours, including lots of overtime. Some nights I was so exhausted I'd sit on the stairs and cry because I was too weary to untie my winter boots. He'd come and do it for me, then half-carry me to my recliner chair and serve me a wonderfully nutritious hot meal.

Now that I'm retired, he does an assortment of part-time construction jobs to keep himself active, so I'm enjoying the chance to do the same for him for a change.

I guess this actually fits in with the "ebb and flow" thing posted in the FA forum this morning, doesn't it!

What confuses me is if you happen to be a feminist, flaming or conservative, it is assumed you will take your family down. I don't get that connection at all.

Hmm...Dianne, let me ponder that one for a while.

I was talking to my daughter (who I believe is one of the most beautiful and brilliant people on the planet) about this thread, but she is also very Gen-X in her viewpoint. She said that it isn't that her generation discounts what my generation accomplished as far as changing the anti-discrimination laws for the better (for the most part.)It's that it doesn't do any good to have the legal right to sue, if in fact, you can't, because you can't afford a lawyer but make too much for legal aid. You need the job or worse, you need the health insurance,but you know they'll find a way to get rid of you, because you can't afford the long fight, whether you were right or not. Her take on "women's lib" is that we changed the surface, but the undercurrents still exist, and as long as they do, we should all still be fighting, especially at "grassroots" level. In her home, which is actually quite a bit more traditional in its approach to religion than mine, she is constantly having to remind her husband not to "lord" it over her--that this was not, and is not, the intent of God's teaching. She says it's hard, because the Bible, written by men, interpreted by men, and taught by men (at least until recently) basically does give men a dominion over women (as it does over animals, but she does not like that comparison AT ALL.) Given human nature, when anyone is given that kind of (apparent) absolute power, it can and will be corrupted. She says the concept of the servant leader is one that Christ modeled, but doesn't get a lot of "press" in the Bible, particularly when it comes to Paul.
She also told me I should have brought this up to her when I was in that crazy class, because she could have offered "a voice of reason" for her generation. Gotta love her!!!

Fifty,
I'd say to those young'uns that they have no idea what it used to be like, so they haven't lived through the changes. Remember the debates during the 1970s about language? There were actual debates in Congress about saying words like "mail carrier" rather than "mailman" and other such gender neutral language. Congressmen (and they all were men) thought it was all ridiculous.

But the langauge has changed and the people doing the jobs has also. When I was a kid, I saw firemen, policemen, and Congressmen, rather than fire fighters, Police officers and congresspeople. Language is very much tied to the way we think about things, and what we imagine. that's just one example about what has changed.

Here's another: In high school, I studied music theory and composition and my music teacher told me I didn't have a future because women couldn't publish music under their own names but had to find men to publish for them. Can you imagine a teacher telling that to a girl today? Parents would have a major fit!

I'm not in a Christian marriage, but a Baha'i marriage where the concept is that man and woman are two wings of a bird and that both need to be strong in an equal partnership. Who does the dishes is not decided at birth but is up for discussion.

I raised my sons to do dishes and clean the bathroom and not expect to be waited on. I think that it corrupts a person to be allowed to expect not to have to clean up their own mess, whether they have a penis or not. To me, a religious person is one who sees himself or herself as a servant to others, not as entitled.

The description of your marriage is so beautiful. I'm going to remember that.

I also taught my sons to take care of themselves. I didn't want some poor woman to marry them and have to wait on them. We had equal rights in our home.

Fifty, you and your daughter are so right. Until we change the mindset of the good old boys network, nothing will ever really be altered. Maybe a few more generations?