I heard something very interesting on the radio this morning while traveling to Indianapolis. A caller to a talk show said he was a Christian and still believes that science and ID can co-exist. It is because as he studied the book of Genesis and when he researched the 2nd verse of chapter 1, "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." He said (I hope I can remember this correctly) the exact Hebrew it was translated from actually translated to became.

What if the earth was already formed and was already ancient when something catastrophic happened and Biblical history began after dinasaurs, floods, etc.?

I definitely believe in Creation 100%, but I have thought science was wrong either.

Daisygirl

i was taught by nuns and priests in catholic grade school that God created the process of evolution...
in many ways i think the "conflict" between science and religion is hype, that it is extremists running the debate and defining the terms when in reality (and i may be wrong) most don't share these extreme ideals...

personally i don't buy off on ID because it discredits and dismisses a powerful biological creative process, one i believe God created and put into motion...ID, in my mind, is sacrilegious because it simultaneously dismisses God while using God as a prop for its argument that everything was just poofed into existence...there is no proof that everything just appeared one day and we do have evidence that things evolved over time...i don't believe it's all so complex that it can't eventually be understood...the earth was once thought to be the center of the universe and it was thought that all else could not be understood; that has come to be proven wrong as have so many ideas based in magical thinking with nary a scientific consideration...

the nuns and priests of my schooling taught us science in a most celebratory fashion and that has stuck with me...when i read articles depicting a conflict between science and religion i feel panged -- why are they ripping the two apart? and it feels like that: a rip...

I think the whole argument is just fodder for attorney fees.

I believe that schools should teach that we simply do not know how the universe came into being.

To teach ID as fact or Darwinism as science is simply false as neither has been proven. Both should be taught as what they are, "theories."

smile

<small>[ December 23, 2005, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: smilinize ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by smilinize:
<strong>
To teach ID as fact or Darwinism as science is simply false as neither has been proven. Both should be taught as what they are, "theories."

smile </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">ID and evolution, while both theories, are not the same kind of theories...
if i said "i can pick up this can", i would not be using the word "can" twice in the same way...
the word "theory" has more than one definition...assuming "theory" to mean "unproven idea" or "idea with substantiating evidence" is to show one's unfamiliarity with multiple, but not simultaneous, definitions...

the word "theory", in conjunction with the words "evolution" or "of gravity," is defined as "a set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena"...scientific theory, as it applies to evolution and gravity and which must meet particular criteria, is not the same as theorizing (coming up with an idea)...

the word "theory", in conjuction with ID, is defined as "an assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture"...

no one in the ID arena would argue that gravity is a fact...the science behind it is limited in that it doesn't fully explain how and why gravity works...what we do know, rather what science there is with regard to gravity is the "theory of gravity"...

the same applies to evolution...evolution is fact...fossil records and other physical evidence can't be disputed; their gaps can be filled in, but their existence -- and the evolution of any given species as shown by those fossils -- is fact...
we don't know everything there is to know about evolution (why some species grew this way instead of that way; what sets an evolution into motion so that a species may adapt; etc)...the explanations, which can be and have been tested and observed in both the lab and natural environment (bacteria is an easy one to see) are thus scientific theory...

there is nothing about ID that can be tested in the lab or the environment...it may be real, but it isn't scientific per any criteria of science...

As always Smilinize speaks the truth, teach both and let each child form his or her own belief. This too is another one of those questions we as mortals can never really answer or know the answer too..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

God's creation is infinite with no beginning and no end. Human minds can't grasp that concept because our minds are finite. There are many worlds of God besides this particular one.

There are also various ways of knowing things. There's scientific reasoning, which is methodical and follows rules of deductiong, examining evidence and conceptualizing theories to explain the physical universe. And there is religion, which is intuitive and involves faith. Both ways of knowing need to work in harmony. We do it all the time in our daily lives. Science without religion is pure materialism. But religion without science is superstition and fanciful thinking.

Modern people scoff at so-called "primitive" peoples for blindly repeating rituals and rites, yet modern humans do it all the time.

What I don't understand is how can so-called religious people look at the verses of the Bible and interpret the meanings materialistically. The Bible is a spiritual work, containing spiritual truth. It's full of metaphors and parables. Jesus told parables to his disciples because that was the only way he could get them to understand some complex spiritual concepts. Why do we suppose that Genesis is any different? When I read that God created man in God's image I understand that God created man as a spiritual being, as God is spiritual rather than material. When the Bible talks about the earth and sky being created in one day, I understand the word "day" to mean "age" or "eons" rather than a 24-hour period.

We need to see with our own eyes and hear with our own ears.

"Thinking themselves to be wise, they became fools..." Can't remember where in the Bible I read that, but as I recall it was in the context of people trying to explain the complexity of God in terms that man could understand.
Who can understand the mind of God? And yet, we are to be like Him.
I'm doing some private research on the possibility of natural evolution from the time of creation through the Flood and then after the disbursement of mankind into the various areas of the world and what it took to adapt to their unique surroundings in order to propigate the species.
I trust that if I'm on the right track, God will help me. If I'm not I'll run into a solid door.

DJ, you are right in that to God a day is as a thousand years. There are both literal and figurative translations of the Bible. God used every resource he could to help us understand, at least in part, what His nature is like so that we could be like Him.
One thing that is totally unexplainable is the "rightness" and "joy" that one experiences when they discover the compete freedom and acceptance that only belief in the monotheistic God can bring. This is a very personal thing and I believe only Christianity can offer a personal and intimate relationship with the very creator of your soul, the essence of you, the eternal you down to showing you which outfit to wear today because you have a job interview and really caring whether or not you get the job!