Hi Everyone,

I was never able to have kids, , am 48, married to a wonderful man who has kids (not living at home).

Wondering if there are anymore like me!

Glad to find you all!! I am in the Southwest part of the country.

Hi Di,

Welcome to the BWS...know you will enjoy yourself here. So pull and your chair relax and enjoy the conversation.
Like you I am married to a wonderful man, my second marriage by the way, (21 years the 1st of Sept).
Have you ever thought about adoption?

I am 56. I never had children either. I wasn't even really around when my sister's and brother's children were growing up. I, however, am not married currently. I was married for 20 years the first time and 10 the second. Currently I live with two cats

Anyhow, welcome to the "site". I'm new too.

Southwest - would that be Arizona?

Hi Di, Yes! We're hard to find, but there are more of us like you out here. I had always wanted lots of children, a dozen in fact, two of my own and the rest I wanted to adopt...and I always wanted to adopt kids that nobody else wanted. It was such a passionate dream of mine that I spent the first part of my life dawdling and doing nothing constructive, because I figured I didn't need to since I was going to get married and have those kids to look after.

Suddenly I was in my mid-thirties and, well, no husband on the distant horizon, much less a child. And no money to adopt. And a history of depression which I figured would render me disqualified for adoption. So I gave up on that dream, and started to think about joining a convent (I'm serious). Just when I was about to send out the SERIOUS letters of application, my future husband walked into my life.

I'm his second wife, he has two grown children and was not really interested in having more...by this time he was 52 (and "fixed") and I was 47. So my dreams of having children never happened. But being childless allows me to heap lots of love and attention on other people's kids, like hubby's granddaughter who I adore, hubby's "adopted" grandson, my three nieces and about six various other children I've known since before they were even born.

Sometimes it saddens me, especially when people talk about a "mother's heart"...I always wanted one of those, and I don't think you can get one without being a mother. Or when I think about growing old and wondering who's going to come and visit me in the nursing home.

But I've had plenty of time to accept that this is how my life worked out...I've gotten to travel a lot and met a lot of people and done a lot of things I wouldn't have if I'd had those dozen kids. Not exactly a fair trade-off, but it will have to do, won't it!

Anyway, as you can see, I'm long-winded, although trying to remedy that, despite what you see here! LOL. Welcome to this place, and I hope you make yourself at home. Maybe we can compare notes about being childless mothers. Not too many people understand the empty feeling.

[ November 15, 2005, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Eagle Heart ]

Wow! I'm so glad that I have found at least three more of us!

If it's ok, I'll answer/comment in general instead of to individual questions:

We are in Southern NM

Adoption was a "passing thought" once, but I was single. So I prayed for a man with children!

We live with five dogs presently. They are our wonderful furkids!

Right, not many truly understand the emptiness of being childless (not by choice) which is why my thread topic was such that it is. I have nothing in common with mothers or grandmothers, so I try to find those of the same ilk. To be honest, I feel left out of most conversations anymore, so I'm pretty much a loner...except for my wonderful DH!!

I, too, wonder about old age. But God only knows what will be in store. I can't worry as tomorrow will "worry about itself".

Glad to see you wrote a book, Eagle. Do you mention childlessness in it as well? It think it could greatly reach those of us who are.

Can't wait to meet new friends!

Di, welcome! It's good to have more southwesterners. I was a noreaster for 45 years, been in CO for almost a year. You will love it here, I'm sure.

Eagle, despite what you think, you DO have a mother's heart. Spiritual children count, ask a priest!

Thank you for saying that, Bluebird! How I have yearned to learn how to love in the way that only mothers seem to be able to love.

Di, I wrote somewhere else here recently about spending 8 weeks in Pecos, NM back in the 1980's...loved it there!

I hear you about feeling left out of most conversations. Especially now that most of my peers are grandmothers. I "inherited" a granddaughter through my husband's son, and I love that child so dearly. But I don't always feel like I can join in the conversations about children and grandchildren.

Being here is different, though. There's such a diversity of experience and there are enough discussions and infinite possibility that everyone can get involved somewhere here. It's made a huge healing difference in my life, and hopefully you'll find it a good place to hang out as well.

Hi Di and all the newbies!

Welcome to this forum!

You are not too far from me.....I live in Arizona.

Flew to Seattle last weekend to attend a wedding and lord n behold, caught a cold. Grrrrrr

Seattle was beautiful! Rained alot.....but we loved it!

Teresa

Eagle Heart, Bluebird, Di, Morningbelle and any other childless women out there, I don't want to make light of the Mothers heart senario here but it is after all "only an expression"....A heart thats filled with love and gives it freely is exactly the same whether that love is being given to a husband, an extended family, strangers in need, the less fortunate and yes even our precious animal babies...I am a Mother, twice but if only once I would be in a pickle as my youngest son was lost to me 11 years ago from drugs, he's out in this world somewhere but only God knows where. A heart is a heart is a heart, and a kind heart is the same no matter who its aimed at. My heart is as full of love for my animal family as for my people family. For anyone to say or believe your love is any different than a mothers love is totally ridiculous. There is no distinction ladies, love is love any way you slice it.....

[ November 15, 2005, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

Thank you, Chatty lady. That is a lovely analogy. I'm sorry about your son.

Lets not tromp on other ladies posts, ladies...Give everyone their chance, please...

Chatty lady.......sorry, I do not understand that comment. am I doing something wrong??

Oh heavens no Di,it was meant for the post that someone posted over this thread before people really had a chance to see it. I brought this one back. That is a good idea thought for people to practice politeness especially since we are growing so fast....HUGS

Yes, Chatty, splain please!!

OOPS! You did splain! Mea culpa.

Hello Di and Belle and Eagle ..i've been reading some of the words here and if it's ok may i add, that even though all people have mothers, for a variety of reasons, not all mothers have been/are kind, compassionate, or in anyway loving. . I've come to believe there are many, many people, young and very old, male and female, who still ache for the type of love you want to share.

Did i say that all wrong ? ... i hope not. What i meant was it is never never too late.

Norma.......thanks. Do you mean it's never too late to HAVE children? If so, I'm 48 and barren! If not, then do you mean visiting someone in a nursing home? If so, I have thought of that.....especially I've wanted to visit those who have NO children like me. I think they need a visit.Sort of like, "Paying it forward".

Hi Di... i mean it's never to late to be a mom to somebody who has never had the kind of love that has had time to listen, to speak softly, to encourage, to accept, to rejoice over good news,
to even know the worst and still accept. Some people say, oh, that what a good friend does, but it's not the same. It's 'someone willing to love me in spite of myself'. For example, years ago an 18 year got involved with our family, it was not an official thing .. anyway, to say the least he never had anyone in his corner, he'd been in a foster home at 6, then a boy's home till 11,
when it closed he was sent back to an alcohal mother, who didn't want him. He became my son an unofficial son, who i loved. When he died,
so many emotions went through me, but one thing i knew, was for a few years he had someone he called 'mom' who he knew loved him.

Di..i hope i didn't explain it wrong, i mean the type of love you have inside and are willing to give is so needed by others.

Hi, this is so interesting to bring up those who did not have a nest to empty. I never had children. By the time I thought I was emotionally mature enough, it was biologically too late. I witnessed how children were treated in my family, and at 15 I was saying that I didn't think I wanted to bring more children to my family. I had not yet learned that there were different ways to raise children, or that I could go my own way. Also, to anyone who thinks that having a child means having a visitor in a nursing home, you know that having children is not a guarantee that they will actually be there. Norma, that is so moving that he had a place to call home for a while. I had a foster family for a summer; for one summer, I lived a little longer. Chatty, I am so sorry about your son.

Di..I am so sorry that you sometimes feel left out of conversations...I have children but I think I know exactly how you feel...I feel left out so many times because people ask me.."what do you do" and I say..I'm a Mom..semi retired now...and they say..."no no..I mean what do you DO?" and when they hear that is my chosen profession they ignore me then..it never feels good..but as far as a loving heart...I have met many mothers who have hard hearts and many women without a child who ooze love from every pore in their bodies...I have a strong hunch you are one of those women..welcome to BWS..Chatty..I am crushed reading about your son...here is a big HUG from me...you are such a sweet and very kind Lady...

Thank you for that, Avalon. Now I can take it further than that! Try saying that you are a "stay-at-home-wife" with no kids! I get..."Oh you must be so bored"!! Dont' THINK so! People are SO judgemental anymore I do not remember it being this way when I was much younger as a kid.

However, I do run a wholesale soap business out of our shop, so in order to not have the comments, I say I "work from home". That usually ends the comments.

I do love kids, really. That is why I wanted them. And I "thought" I would have them. We are so programmed as very young girls that "First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes Di with the baby carriage". I NEVER remember in health class the word "infertile" or "barren" ever getting mentioned.

We MUST educate as many as we can!

Welcome, Di. I was born and raised in Silver City, NM.

There are benefits to having children and benefits to not having them. I had four and while it was tough raising them, we're now friends.

Like it was mentioned before, you can love others and maybe someone who never had a mother's love.

Di,
I feel so awful for you...terms like "Barren and infertile" should never be uttered..and yes..people are much more rude these days...is the word "tactful" still even in the dictionary?I believe in freedom of speech but that does not mean feel "free" to hurt people's feelings...having a child is wonderful..but it certainly does not validate you as a loving or lovable woman...you my Dear, have done that all by yourself..my children are grown now and I have
an overwhelming need to hold and hug and nurture...so now I have 2 cocker spaniels who I baby..and they love me back unconditionally..my kids never got as excited to see me as they do.. ..Don't let people hurt you Di...you are too valuable...and I agree...we do need to "educate"...and lesson No.1 should be "Tactful Conversations 101" Have a great day!!!

Actually, I do consider myself barren. (I had a hyst) My point was that we were never "taught" that such things can happen in life!

Yeah, we have five dogs now, too, and I LOVE them. But five active ones (Aussies and Heelers) are lots of work when one tries to get stuff done!

Avalonblondi you said it for me, don't use the word "barren" on yourself. You are anything but "barren." You are a full, beautiful woman willing to give and share love.

I'm a stay at home mom for the last 20 years and don't like when people ask me "what do you DO all day?" Well, let's see here, I sit watching soaps all day chewin' on bon bons in my robe and big, pink fluffy slippers, scratching my backside. I can't fart and use the remote at the same time! LOL!!!
Seriously, I find plenty to do all day too. I think maybe some of those people that ask that question don't like that we CAN be at home. It's almost like you are supposed to hold a job outside of the home in order to be valued (in some people's minds, that is.)

Well,

as for the posts, did a good job you guys! As for the "childless" out there, I am speaking for myself, but knowing Flipperjo as I do now, I think I can speak for the two of us.....Yes, our children were our children, and we loved them with every bit of heart we had. But make no mistake here. And I MEAN no mistake - Mothers are mothers. If you can be a mother to anyone, you have a Mother's Heart. Would we have felt differently if our children were adopted? Surely not. Love is love. And trumps everything. Biological child or not. Never feel left out. You can each decide what Mother's role you can play - and how involved you need to be. Any child on this earth would cherish the Mother role you are able to give. However in-depth you are able to provide. Gifts are gifts. May I welcome all who wish to provide, a Mother's Heart, welcome. These hearts are sorely needed!!!!

Searcher

Norma,

I like you better and better, every time I read your posts. What a wonderful person you are! And most certainly, your Mother's Heart has been duly noted and written in the Book of Time. With a Star above your name. As another human, I thank you for your contribution.

Search

Chatty, I like your response and ditto it. Love is love. Many mothers do more harm to their children than good. Giving birth does not automatically make a woman love any better.

Daisygirl

ok, big breath and here we go...

i never dreamed that posting about my 'mother's heart' would create so much varied discussion but i think it is a good thing! as for myself, it was my own mother's heart i was writing about and having found so many others by sharing that is a wonderful feeling. it was not my intention to imply that there is something exclusive about it. there is a huge territory of love surrounding every WOMAN'S heart and i'm so glad to have stepped into the overlapping territories represented here. this thread has brought to mind something i wrote in 2001. apply to your own hearts as needed...

"Adoption of the Heart

I have been thinking a lot lately about "adoption of the heart." It is a great cure for the bitterness which could so easily creep in after the death of my child. I can't touch her silky young face, I can no longer hold her in my arms, tell her I love her or tuck her in under the sparkle of stars.

How could this happen to me? What did I do to deserve this? Why did MY child die? Why didn't I keep her home that day? Other people live through car accidents, why not my daughter? Who decided she had to die? Questions such as these could haunt my every waking moment if I let them. I could submerse myself for the rest of my life in philosophy and theology, searching and longing for answers and explanations. Why? Why? Why? If only...if only...if only...

I still ask those questions now and then, but I have realized that if I truly live with the expectation of answers I will become selfish and bitter in my quest. There is a huge cavern in my heart, echoing with the absence of Melissa. It will always be there for there is no substitute for her. I have, however, found a way to dull the loneliness of this place. "Adoption of the heart."

In my heart I have adopted all the children I love. I follow their growth and progress with interest and cheer them on as a rapt fan. The wonderful thing is that so many of them, right down to the youngest, seem to understand that my need for them is born of great pain. They return my affection tenfold.

I can offer the watchful eye and concern of a mom, the indulgence of a grandmother and the listening ear of a friend. I possess this big chunk of mothering which was reserved for Melissa and is no longer needed by her. I spread it around liberally. Because I don't have the responsibilities of their real moms I can be indulgent and generous in my attentions to them, like a grandmother. And I love to listen to them. Listening to the hearts of my adopted brood gives me glimpses of what might have been in Missi's and if I listen very carefully, I occasionally see the little part of her which was left in each of them.

No, there will never be a substitute for my own daughter. I will always feel the pain of her absence; the loss of the one person on earth who could echo the best parts of me and whose heart was so closely bound to my own. But I can defeat the bitterness of my pain by embracing the joy given so freely by my "other" children through "adoption of the heart." "

Flipperjo, that was exquisite. I actually got glimpses of myself in there, particularly in regard to my husband's granddaughter - who has become my own in every other way possible...we don't need blood ties to recognize the kindred spirit we've found in each other.

Thank you for sharing your beautiful wisdom. I suspect that your words "adoption of the heart" will become entrenched in my being and perspective now.

FlipperJo..
Your "Adoption of the Heart" is magnificent!!! Would you mind if I copy it and send it to a few of my girlfriends? and along those lines...My son's roommate Brent has no biological family..His Dad was an only child and he died when Brent was 13...his Mom, also an only child, raised Brent alone...Brent himself is an only child..2 years ago at the age of 26 , Brent's Mom died of leukemia..here is this kid..alone..no parents, no grandparents, no siblings, no cousins...standing by his Mom's coffin..it broke my heart in 2..soon after that he moved into my son's house..and he shares all of his holidays with us..last summer he bought himself a king sized bed and so as a surprise I ran out and bought new bedding and hung curtains and had his college soccer jersey framed and hung that over his bed..he was so happy when he came home and found his room decorated that he just picked me up and hugged me so long and hard I thought i heard a rib crack..he told me that it was the nicest thing anyone has ever done for him since he was little boy..and from that day on he has called me Mom...I feel sorry for myself for no longer having parents at 52...this kid was so alone..but now he has adopted my family and me..that is why "Adoption of the heart" hit home for me...thanks again FlipperJo for your eloquence

eagle and nancy - thank you for telling me what my words mean to you - i am blessed by your responses.

eagle, i have a feeling your heart/granddaughter is a very lucky girl having you in her life!

nancy, thank you for sharing about brent. i could feel his pain through your words and know that he is blessed to have you, too.

we hosted an exchange student from finland and for a shorter time, one from norway - both girls. both have lost their mothers since they were here. i have been over to visit them, but how i wish i could be there so much more. they are adoptees in my heart and i know they keep me in theirs, too.

yes, nancy, go ahead and make copies but please add my full name, JoAnne Rademacher.

thanks!

Tisk, tisk, LOL

Thanks Joanne..
I just sent your inspirational piece on to some ladies who I know will cherish every
word..

flipper, you are so wise to embrace this attitude. And the children who know you are blessed.

I've seen a couple pieces of your writing in here. Do you have lots more? Are you considering putting together a book?

chatty lady, i find your "tisk tisk LOL" to be highly inappropriate and hurtful in the context of this thread.

dotsie, thank you for your encouragement. yes, i do have a collection of articles i've written. i have toyed with the idea of a book and my family would like me to put it together but i've had so many irons in the fire, i haven't had the energy to pursue the book. it is definitely something i want to do as soon as we get our business back on a solid footing. i really appreciate your kindness and caring heart!

What beautiful words, Flipperjo. They touched my heart very deeply. Thank you for sharing here.

I must admit Chatty, I too didn't understand the tsk, tsk, comment. I'm sure it wasn't meant in a bad way but could you explain it?

flipperjo your writings are so beautiful and touch the heart. Are you a professional writer, if not you should be.

Wow, Flipperjo. I feel honored that you've included your writings in my welcome thread! I have a most appropriate place to put it! And I will honor your complete name!

(((HUGS)))

Diane

JoAnne, yes, thank you for your post. It was beautiful. Nancy G., you, too.

As for this thread...I'm troubled by the term "barren". It's so negative and dramatic. That's not what bothers me the most though. It bothers me because it's not true at all.

If you are a creative woman (and we all are), you are not barren. I have found over the years that the more I create, the more I find similarities to the way it felt to create life. I feel like I'm giving birth again whenever I create a Halloween costume or rearrange the furniture or add some flourishes to the decor in the kitchen.

When I spend 20 hours a week at the local little league fields creating a baseball experience for the community, I'm giving birth. When I spend 2 days straight writing a grant to get new fences, I've given birth to a thought that became a reality. That creative impulse is the SAME impulse as giving birth. It's simply a matter of degree.

Barren is such a harsh word. I have children and grandchildren, and they are more important than anything else I create. But those other things are uniquely mine, and only I could have done them in that particular way. And they are evidence of my total and utter lack of barrenness.

Those of you without children from your womb...you're not barren. There is evidence of your creativity all through your life. Embrace that. Tell yourself--see what I did? I created that. Brag about it the way people brag about their children. It's not wrong to point out what you've created. That's exactly what people are doing when they talk about their children.

NMY

Di, I'm joining this thread WAY WAY late, but to address the question you asked initially - I am 58 yrs. old and have never had children. At first that was a choice, then a surgery (which was NOT by choice!) made it impossible to have children. By the time I considered adoption, I was separated then divorced and by the time I re-married I was just plain no longer interested! I love children and involve myself with them (including my nieces and nephews) whenever I can.....As a writer I am active in young writers' mentoring programs and love the enthusiasm of these talented kids.

I did have to go through a period in my life when my contemporaries would ask "when are you going to have kids?" and "why haven't you had kids yet?" But that eventually stopped. I've always had cats in my life though and they have been my children - my "mothering" outlet. I also "mother" in my gardens. Taking care and nurturing the plants is another great outlet.

Anyway - just wanted to welcome you here and after reading through all the previous posts here, I see there are several of us who for one reason or another didn't have children "of our own body"....but have been "mothers" nonetheless.

NMY,

Allow me to explain my "barren" term. I use it ONLY to describe my physical situation. Think of barren land. It cannot produce "seed". It has no nutrients to help it grow. My body does not have ANY ground.....no tubes, ovaries, womb.

Hence, I "know" I do not have a barren life....by any means. Again, I use it to get people to understand (when those comments come as many of you know) that I do NOT have anything to "grow seed". I chose this wisely PLUS, for the Christians here, the "barren woman" is a biblical term. Psalm 113:9 says, "He grants the barren woman a home LIKE a joyful mother of children. Praise the Lord!"

Barren: infertile, unproductive, sterile

I have no problem using this to describe my reproductive circumstance. I really AM ok with this choice!

[ November 17, 2005, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Di ]

Hi Everyone
I too do not have Kids of my own but I have three wonderful grown Step Children and two grandchildren. I love them as my own and they love me too.

The kids were grown when my Husband and I married but the grandchildren came along after we married. I took care of my grand daughter when she was a baby until she started school. She is now 10 years old. I also had the opportunity to spend time with my second grand daughter when she was born. She is now three years old.

I don't miss having children of my own because I have been adopted by my step children and that makes me very happy.

My youngest step son decided to move from New Jersey with his wife to North Carolina where my Husband and I live. They have a beautiful home that we renovated for them.

For me being a Stepmom is just as good as being a Mom.

I'm joining this thread really late, but wanted to say how touched I've been by the beautifully written, wonderful support you've all shown here. It makes me feel honored to be part of this group.

Di, I have two children. but did not have the first until we were married seven years. We did this by choice, but it wasn't something we talked about to other people. You'd be amazed at the insensitive questions and comments we got from a lot of people, including my husband's mother.

I wouldn't give my kids for anything, but I had a rich full life before they were born. And I know I could continued to have one had our choice been different or had it tutned out there was no child in our future.

Please, don't feel left out when people brag about their kids. I do it as much if not more than anyone I know. But I don't do it with people I know will be hurt by it. I don't know anyone who would do that!

Just my thoughts.

You are a rare breed,Jackie. IE:

quote:

---

I do it as much if not more than anyone I know. But I don't do it with people I know will be hurt by it. I don't know anyone who would do that

---

There are SO MANY women who are heartless in their comments AND conversations. They go on and on about "how to make a baby", what can take their place (nothing can take the place, in my opinion, of creating a life with your husband, feeling a miracle grow inside your body, and giving life to that creation of God). All we really need is an "I'm sorry for your loss", cause it is a loss...a death of a dream.

I'm so glad you are careful about your words. Please educate other mothers in your circle. Please, please!!!

Dee Dee....

I'll be like you, soon. Sort of. DH's dauther is having grandbaby no. 1 in Feb or there abouts. The sad thing is they live too far (5 hrs). And, the mother,usually, gets first "dibs" at spending time with daughter during the birth and being right out of the hospital. DSD has already set the rules, although we are "allowed" to visit and stay in a motel. Dont' THINK so. We will just wait...the baby wont' know us in the beginning anyway.

thanks for understanding and jumping in here. We all need to stick together.

Welcome Di,

4 pregnancies
0 births

first 3 were miscarriages. 4th was a tubal pregnancy that came within 1/4" of killing me. Since I had 20% odds of future pregnancies being tubal again, I took that as a big major sign that I wasn't supposed to have kids.

For 5 or 10 years thereafter, I'd feel kinda rueful whenever I'd see a little girl with big dark eyes, but then it passed. I don't feel barren. I don't think my life is any less for not having children, just different.

As far as other people being insensitive -- people who are insensitive rarely stop at one issue. I look at it as their personality flaw and not my problem. Yes, they can hurt you, so I'd do my best to avoid certain folks.

Meredith, I am sorry to hear that. How painful that must have been. And you are right, not less, but different. Great point.

We went through four years of infertility before adopting.

I'm so sorry, Meredith. Thanks for posting what you did. I've never had an opportunity to even KNOW what it was like to be pg, but also the sadness that has ensued for you. How very sad.

And there must be LOTS of people with personality flaws, 'cause insensitivity regarding infertility, barrenness or childlessness is rampant in this society of teen pregnancy and grancparents raising grandchildren.

Meredith,
I had a friend who chose not to have kids and I told her it was not in the cards to have kids . People tend ot judge and they should not . It was not in the cards for you either . You are a wonderful and caring person and you give us lots of hope in life .

What gets me is that some of the folks who are insensitive about women without children, are the same ones who popped their babies out like so much burnt toast, and raise them with about as much values.

Nancy, thank you so much for your kind thoughts. I agree with what you said.

Di, I am sorry for your pain but I'll respectfully disagree with you. I was not meant to have children. If God/Goddess/Universe wanted me to have children, then I would have. Satan has no power over me.

I am saddened that I never had a daughter. I'm equally regretful that I didn't follow through on my mathematics or pursue a career in music. They are all paths not taken. There would have been greatness in any of them, and they are all closed doors. Some paths were chosen for me, and others I chose myself. Either way, I accept it and am at peace with it. I am on the path I was meant to travel.

Having reproductive organs and hatching out burnt toast does not make one a mother or a nurturer, only a breeder. Too many people reproduce because they can. Too many people bring children into the world that are unwanted, unloved, and un-taken care of.

If we were all meant to be (fill in the blank here...) would there be blindness? deafness? other dysfunctions in our bodies? Bodies are not perfect. We are so much more than our body parts.

This imperfect body is temporary housing for my soul, and I'm eternally grateful for the experiences which it has given me in this lifetime.

I feel the need to say some things -

I am a mother. of two. And of two who were unborn also. Miscarriages.

But of the two who blessed my life - one was so ill. And one was not only NOT ill, but excelled in all that he did - does. And both loved by me.

My point tho', is this....We cannot discern what is meant for our lives (mine nor my children's). I believe that our lives have a point. With or without children. Well or unwell. I have railed against my child's illness - screamed until my voice was gone, or scarcely heard - and still do. We went through such agonizing pain with this illness that it has hurt us all and those who loved us. But also stregthened some and changed many lives for the good. I could say "WHY?????", WHY""""". But I have never done this. Because, why not?. Who am I to expect that I should be given any special disspensation for grief? I should not. Nor should any other in this life of joy, pain, learning, and giving. I am but one of countless sorrows, who will either jump off a bridge, or make some use of my sorrows, and this, after all, is a choice.

My choice is that I shall live - for my son, for my daughter who is with us on earth no more - for you and I, and for my Sam and his children.....And , if all the "Gods" in Heaven were to see fit that my son should leave me as well, I would hope that you women would see me to the place that I could say, "We are here together to perform a task, with or without our children - born or not"........Or if born, ill, or champions - each giving what they were intended to do...........

Let us not make this a difference between us, but a bond that will strengthen our world. Let us understand each other. Our biological need to further our own, but also our social need to gather our sisters in strength and unity to gain a better place to change our world for the gain of all......

To be a little glib - my dad used to to say, "nobody ever said it was fair, Jo".......So I guess I never expected it to be fair. And, indeed, it has not been....

Happy Thanksgiving All - and even tho' things have been rather unforgiving in the past year - or 30 - I still have many thanks.....One of them being YOU.....

Searcher

PS - I have also learned, if it helps anyone, to count my blessings, ONE by ONE. Literally. It will just change your way of thinking. Just COUNT them - one by one. It helps. And keep a record.

Today, I had so many blessings, I cannot EVEN count them. In one day. SOOOOOOOOOO many.

And BTW, I am not a particularly "religious" person...

Great thoughts. Lots to think about.

Searcher, you mentioned asking why not?

I guess I was raised to question why bad things happened to good people. Like just because you lived a good life, nothing bad should happen to you. I am ashamed to say that because it is so shallow.

While in my 30's we had a minister at our church who had been raised a good part of her life in the mission field. While conversing with her one day, she pointed out to me that there was something she didn't understand about the majority of people in our church family. Why did they think nothing bad should happen to them, or their loved ones. Like we were exempt, or something... She didn't get that way of thinking because she had been raised to think...why shouldn't bad things happen to us? Why should we be exempt?

That one conversation changed my way of thinking for life, and I am so grateful.

Some people think God is punishing them when soemthing bad happens. I don't believe He is a punishing God. I believe he is a loving God who allows us to use our circumstances to soften us to wisdom when we are tuned in to Him.

Who did I think I was that I should question and think no ill harm should come upon my loved ones and me? I now shudder at the pompous thought.

One of the toughest times in my life was living through infertility because all I really wanted to do when I grew up was get married and have children. Sounds silly for someone of my generation, but I came from a loving home and wanted to do what Mom did.

But I learned so much during those four years and the adoption years that followed. God's plan was better than mine. I adopted two, then gave birth to one. All a blessing, and nothing I ever would have dreamed of doing at the onset of infertility because adoption was foreign to me.

Dotsie,

I am so filled that you understood me. My God, or Harietta as I call Her is not a punishing God either. This is how I figure : if I, as a mere mortal, would not bring pain or sadness to another on purpose, then Harietta in all Her wisdom of the universe, would surely do no less than I. So She is incapable of inflicting harm on anyone or thing. Therefore, anything other than peace, joy, health and happiness comes not from Her, but from the earth itself....Some call this Satan. I call it nature.

Wolves eat bunnies. Spiders eat flies. Beautiful plants wither and die in the glory of the sun. Just because.......This is our earth. Not to say that I am "fatalistic" - I believe we can change many things - but rarely by violence - or at least if through violence, for long. The root of the problem will always surface - if not today, then tomorrow. And tomorrow is almost always worse. For left unattended, we as humans THINK (or think we do), and while thinking, we tend to escalate the problem.

Dots, I too, only wanted a family for my life. Happy, loving, learning, giving family. Father, Mother, and children. Paradise. But paradise is elusive and comes to so few...Paradise is to be made as best it can be, I believe, through hard work, diligence, and perseverence.....emotional, spiritual, and physical. None of us just gets to "sail" through.......Not even royalty - Kennedy s, the Windsors, and say Oprah is only able to give what she now does through personal struggle (even if some have problems with her methods).......

Your thoughts are , nor ever have been , silly Dotsie. Nor pompous. Just human...But as you know now, I believe our journey is to get beyond just human - or at least human as we know it to be today.....Consider the Middle EAst. The hate that has endured for so very long - can Israel and Palestine find a way? I hope so. I BELIEVE this will happen - and in our lifetime. So all can be made better - if not "fixed"....

It's not just your God that provided for you , in my thoughts, but your own ability to alter your ideas, to adapt, and to solve your own dilemma. Harietta gave you those abilities and you used them. Now , you have your babies - your own AND ones whose spirits chose your house to enter......From what I have heard, all will be blessed...Tho' as I know, never to be free from life's life.

Hearing You,

Searcher

Searcher, your posts are both beautiful and wise. Thank you for sharing.

Thank you, Meredith- but I consider this place a gift to me and to all - a place where I am able to express myself, heal myself with help from you all. A place to just be a part of a community of women....So I am the one who is grateful.

Searcher, I just want to echo Meredith. Your posts ARE so beautiful and wise. Dotsie said something in another post about how God/Harietta softens our wounds into wisdom (sorry, Dotsie, I know I didn't quote you correctly). I love that imagery, it speaks such tender care and compassion for our very real human anguish.

I can really see it in you, how you've chosen to allow the unspeakable agony of losing your daughter (after watching her suffer for so many years) to become an instrument of compassionate healing and gentle wisdom instead of a bitter negation of anything good emerging from that darkness.

You've really touched my heart and soul in ways you'll probably never know. Thank you.

Dotsie, all I can think of when you say that is this: God loved those children so much that He gave them to you knowing you would love and nurture them in return.

Many women are mothers by name only. It's not a given than when a woman gives birth she will automatically be a good mother.

Eagle,

You have touched my heart also. We are bound by certain things in our lives...I will never forget you.

Yes. There are footprints on my heart.

Lady - You are right. It took me many years to understand this...But Dotsie was chosen by those children's spirits. I truly believe this now. And each of us are chosen in our own giftedness, to contribute to our world with our own very individual talents. Nichole had hers, I have mine, and Sam surely has his.......

Happy Season

Searcher

I, also, often say this, "I'm a mother, I just never had any children". That shocks people as well.

Heck, we have FIVE dogs and I mother them pretty often.

Perfect, Di. Just perfect.

My daughter and I were discussing something like this just a little while ago. Some people are nuturers, others are not. I've never been sure this is something that can be learned.

Years ago, we used to say, "Some people are mothers. Others just have babies." I still believe that to a certain extent.