I don't know what the prisons are like in the UK but here in the states, they rarely have hard labor anymore. You might see a work crew along the road in the deep South but my cousin has been a drain on Texas taxes for many years as a prisoner and his hard labor is working the prison garden. That, and trying to con people out of money through the mail system, me included.

We're just going to have to disagree on whether the death penalty stops these people from taking lives but I will say this...I worked with female inmates for over a year and it was quite an education. I had to testify at one of their trials and the difference from what she claimed and what actually came out in court were completely opposite. They are con artists.

I think you assume these killers are haunted by their crimes but that's not true. They brag about it, they compare stories, like they were comparing where to shop. They aren't like us. There are the few who, by mistake, took a life but trust me, almost all of them were planned. Especially the child predators. They stalk their victims before attacking. And, these people could care less what society thinks of them. They just don't care.

With the advance of DNA testing, there are very few accidental executions now. Yes, there have been some in the past and those involved will have to live with that but it's all changing now, thankfully.

I too like to see criminals behind bars forever but not when they've killed a child.

Ah, yes, well people do say I am a dreamer. While the crime statistics are up from 2004 to 2005, prior to that they were actually inching down. (See http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2005preliminary/05table3.htm). Things aren't good, but they aren't as out of control as the media would have us believe. But think about it. Their job is to promote "bad" news.

There was a concept put out by (I think) a Catholic Bishop asking for a consistency for people who oppose killing. So, if one is against abortion, then it follows that one is against the death penalty, and war in all its forms. Either you is, or you ain't in his line of thinking. I believe it bears merit.

I will totally agree that people in prison are manipulators. It's how the system works. My son was in and out of juvie for six years. What the system taught him was to con and lie to survive. Of course they brag. The "baddest" gets the best treatment and is the one least likely to be raped and beaten by fellow inmates. Their society isn't like ours so why do we expect them to be like us?

As this article shows, it can work both ways. Some innocent people are executed while others are released, only to murder.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13862770/

Casey, my cousin would lie when he was home after his latest release and before he did something stupid again and went back in. It was the type of bragging to show how God had delivered him from being killed. How he'd go in and rob a place at gunpoint (for drug money) and all of these miraculous things took place that kept him from being shot. My sister and I sat there and after rolling our eyes, left the room because it made us sick. My poor aunt was so happy to see him she would just stare at him with a glowing face, not hearing his words but just happy that he was home. When she died, he was in prison, once again. He's such a moron. But then, it's easier for him to get his drugs in prison than on the street.

The Catholic Bishop's idea is interesting. And I can see the inconsistency of not believing in abortion but believing in execution. But to my way of thinking, doesn't it boil down to choice? The criminal made the choice to murder. Does the unborn baby have a choice? The mother has the choice but she also has the choice to take care of herself and that means sexually. If you become pregnant, how careful are you being about your health where STD or AIDS is concerned? How responsible are you being for yourself? And, I believe that it is one of a woman's biggest responsiblities...to protect and care for herself, both physically and spiritually. I know women who use abortion as a form of birth control. Geesh.

Once, when I was leading the support group with the female inmates, I passed around a piece of paper for them to sign in and wouldn't you know it? Before the paper ever got around the table, someone had stolen the ink pen! The guards were always on my side and backed me so I told them that unless the offender returned the pen, they would all have to go into lock-up. I got my pen back. It was just unbelievable. I had to stop before I lost all faith in mankind.

Child molestation and the abortion issue do not belong in the same conversation in my opinon. The abortion issue is about a woman's right to choose and whatever she chooses is none of my business. A child molester is a criminal who usually does not get jail time the first time because male judges don't "get it!" Their crimes escalate until they hit the courts too many times or someone dies. I say put them away the first time for 20 years. If they live through jail and do it again I don't care if they live. There is a history of child molesters being killed in jail. They're called "short eyes" by other inmates (non-molesters). There was a movie by that name at least 20 years ago.

There are also female judges that don't get it either but then, our judicial system has so many flaws it's ridiculous. The offenders have more rights than their victims.

Let's just say we're going to agree to disagree on the abortion/capital punishment issue. You aren't going to change your mind and neither am I.

You're right, Dianne. And they're two separate issues.

I believe that we all agree or come close to agreeing that the present "justice" system isn't working well. Here's in California, we're going to "ship" some prisoners to other states because we can't house them all. Part of this is due to the three-strikes law.
The justice system right now is built on a retribution model (revenge) and not a restorative model (such as they had in South Africa at the end of apartheid). From the reading I've done, as well as my own experience with the system, I believe the retribution system serves no one (criminal, victim or society) very well.
My son called me last night from the program he is currently in. I haven't talked with him since March. Yep, he was one who was always proud of having gotten away with things (except he wasn't very good at it! LOL). He told me this program is different because they are being taught responsibility, rather than sitting around or being in groups all day. The first part of the time there, he worked a lot (19 hours a day by his estimation). Now he's working in the moving company that's part of the program. His "pay" is $30/hour which goes back into community living to pay for their housing, food and extras. He's being taught how to live, not get away with things!

Casey, I think I just finally got bitter toward the seasoned criminals. They would use anyone they could find to get away with stuff they knew they weren't supposed to do.

I had a bank robber in my group for a while before she got shipped off to a federal prison. While I didn't believe much of what she shared in group, bragging about going home with her boyfriend and rolling around in bed on top of the stolen money, one thing was clear...she had robbed banks!

After she got shipped out, she started calling me and sure enough, wanted to "borrow" money from me. I said no. Then she wrote me but one letter included an addressed envelope to some man and from the addy, I knew it was her partner that was in another prison and she wasn't supposed to have any contact with him. She asked me to mail the letter for her because...some lame excuse. I wrote her back and asked her just how stupid she thought I was and did she want me to return the letter to her (which meant the prison authorities would have read it and she would have been in big trouble) or did she want me to throw it away. Oh my, she was so sorry, what was she thinking and all I had done was try to help her.

I have been thinking about something that was said here. That they learn how to brag, lie and new tricks of the trade but what about this? The ones who did all of these things before they went to prison because it was part of their life of crime?

I'm thrilled to hear about your son's program. Being young, I have great hope for him and he sounds like he's doing so well. Good for him!

Dianne,
You bring up a good point:

"That they learn how to brag, lie and new tricks of the trade but what about this? The ones who did all of these things before they went to prison because it was part of their life of crime?"

If we had the answer to that, perhaps we could interrupt the criminal he/she began? I truly believe that our schools are not serving us, even though many teachers are dedicated and good. Many more families have two working parents because of the economy. (Unless one parent is making an extremely good salary here in CA, both parents must work just to pay the rent; often one or both are working two jobs as well.) Our "leaders" lie or get involved in shady dealings way too often (Both Dems and Reps). People leave their ethics outside the office door.

If we want those who are troubled and weak to clean up their act, I believe we need to clean up ours as well and demand that our leaders be true examples of what they want society to be, demand that our schools teach more than how to take a test and be involved in our communities.

(off of soapbox, now) :-))