that forgiveness is a choice?

Absolutely.

Dianne, I'm reading a wonderful book about forgiveness called "The Sunflower - On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness" by Simon Wiesenthal.

from the back of the book:

"While imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp, Simon Wiesenthal was taken one day from his work detail to the bedside of a dying member of the SS. Haunted by the crimes in which he had participated, the soldier wanted to confess to - and obtain absolution from - a Jew. Faced with the choice between compassion and justice, silence and truth, Wiesenthal said nothing. But even years after the war had ended, he wondered: Had he done the right thing? What would you have done in his place?

In this important book, fifty-three distinguished men and women respond to Wiesenthal's questions. They are theologians, political leaders, writers, jurists, psychiatrists, human rights activists, Holocaust survivors, and victimes of attempted genocide in Bosnia, Cambodia, China, and Tibet. Their responses, as varied as their experiences of the world, remind us that Wiesenthal's questions are not limited to events of the past. Often surprising and always thought provoking, 'The Sunflower' will Chalenge you to define your beliefs about justice, compassion, and human responsibility."

Have a good read! I haven't arrived at any personal conclusions yet.

<small>[ March 07, 2006, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: flipperjo ]</small>

A complicated question, Dianne. I may choose to forgive something that was done to me, but I can never really forget. I wish I could, but it's something I've never been able to do.

What I can and do choose is to seek forgiveness from those I have wronged or hurt. I find that comforting.

I think in this mans shoes I might have asked myself, "would this german be asking me for forgiveness if he were not dying? Or would he continue his terrible ways?" In other words is he sincere (doubtful) or just scared of the unknown he is about to enter into? In his case I'd have said nothing as well and let God sort it out.

other questions raised in this book:

Do I have the right to give blanket forgiveness to an individual for wrongs done to a group to which I belong?

Do I have the right to forgive an individual for wrongs done to another?

I can't say what I would have done, but I hope I would have apologized. The dying woman deserved the opportunity to claim the gift of forgiveness.

Forgiving as well as being forgiven is a gift.

She cetainly would not trust him, but she could forgive and feel that peace before her death.

Forgiveness is given. Trust is earned.

smile

This is a very interesting subject. And one that I think we should all contemplate - because it affects all of us many times in our own lives. Tho hopefully never in the context of holocaust.

Dianne, what do you mean , choice? I don't quite understand what you mean since it seems obvious to me that it would be a choice. So I must be missing something else......How else do you think it might be? Oh. Do you mean as if it were a command that we must forgive?

I think it's a little odd or serendipitous that this question is being raised today. I am having a personal struggle with this exact problem, and have been trying to research just exactly what forgiveness means to different people. I mean, what does it really MEAN when we say we forgive? It's certainly one thing to say, "I forgive you", when the person forgot you had a lunch date and another if someone has held you prisoner in a concentration camp. And all in between.

Then I have heard people say, well, "I can forgive, but not forget"....This seems silly to me. Of course you can't forget - if you have an intact memory, then you don't forget , unless it was something totally meaningless to you, and in that case, forgiveness wouldn't be necessary.

Maybe forgiveness means : I'll forgive you because you never realized the importance of what you were doing. Of course if it's a transgression as serious as being complicite in mass murder - it seems you should have made it your business to know. But then of course your own life could have been in danger, so forgiveness might be more easily given.

I realize I'm "going on" here, but this is a serious question for me. And what I decide impacts many important people in my own life.

I have been told by a chaplain that forgiveness really means "letting go" of your original idea about the person. That the person wasn't who you thought they were.....Well, that sounded pretty good, but somehow, doesn't seem enough.

I think what I really want, is for this person to genuinely understand what occurred as a result of their action, and then to apologize to my face with hearfelt remorse. Yep. That's just it precisely. So then, at least in my instance, the true issue would be validation of my own pain . Right?

As far as foregiveness for a group of people, I don't think one person would ever have that right. Or the power, actually. Since each person is just that - his/her own person, and each has something unique to forgive. And then no, I don't think we have a right to forgive for another. I am thinking forgiveness is very personal.

As for the death-bed scene - since we cannot ever know whether the dying person is sincere or not, and since I don't believe we can forgive for others, I think it would be best to say if you , personally, can forgive him, but that you cannot and do not have the power to forgive for another. I surely don't think I could have remained silent as Mr. Wiesenthal - as I am sure any holocaust survivor has been elevated to another plane of understanding of our world. And just to make sure that I am "speaking" clearly, I mean that if I were in Simon Wiesenthal's presence, I would feel a great reverence for whatever he thought or did. These people have seen and experienced the great depth of human depavity - evil, if you wish - and survived. Some to that level of forgiveness. I will never know whether I could or not. My inclination is to say that I could not;since I'm having a hard time with something as trivial as a blade of grass in comparison.

This has helped me to clarify some things for myself, so thanks.

Searcher

Reading what you all have written, I realize what makes the 'The Sunflower' such a good read. It makes you think. I will read one contributor's chapter and think I agree and then I'll read another with a different perspective and find myself agreeing with that one, too.

It is truly amazing what Mr. Weisenthal went through in that camp. And it is excruciating to the senses to read the atrocities the SS officer participated in. You also begin to understand the pressures he was under to 'go along' with his peers (though not justified). I am not usually big on books that require a lot of thought and that's probably why it is taking me so long to finish this one. It is a heavy topic but an important one.

Forgiveness is the ultimate gift of grace.

We are hurting OURSELVES when we choose not to fogive. Forgiveness leads to life lived abundantly, instead of in the trenches, mulling over all the offenses.

Forgiveness doesn't make the other person right, it simply makes you FREE.