Ladybug and DJ, you are correct. They did have the information. Condi admitted so much in several tv interviews, specifically I remember her mentioning it in the 9/11 hearings. However, they looked on it as something that wasn't important or relevant. So it was ignored. I don't remember the name of the memo Condi referred to, though I do remember her saying the topic had something to do with al Qaeda wanting to use airplanes as missiles. If I come across it again, I'll post it. Thanks for reminding us of this.

[ December 27, 2005, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Vi ]

In response to your words to me Vi, just so no one gets the wrong impression, i think (unfortunately) all nations and (unfortunately) many of us as individuals have dirty laundry lurking somewhere .. I think the quest you, others and myself are on is to learn from the past, so those mistakes are not repeated.
As individuals, as citizens of our own particular nation, or as citizens as the world, surely this is essential.

(i do not mean to imply any of you people as individual's have regrettable things in your past, it's just that i am in a catagory of those that do )

[ December 26, 2005, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Norma, I agree with you entirely. I also have a past - which I learned a lot from, but it sets me apart from some of my family. I don't regret the things I did. I do regret if I hurt anyone in the process.

Now, I need to address the posting issue. Today before I posted my long post, I did not see Ladybug's response. It just wasn't there. So I posted mine and then saw hers. So I addressed it. In the meantime, DJ posted her response to Ladybug, but I never saw DJ's response. It wasn't there even though I did a refresh. I didn't find DJ's response until a few minutes ago.

I'm only mentioning this because if I miss addressing something someone said, and it seems that I'm addressing the wrong person, please forgive. I don't mean to leave anyone out.

Now I'm going to read the Colon Powell article to see if I need to comment on it, or if just adding a link will be sufficient.

Please feel free to add links to the articles you read. They will help us gain more rounded perspectives.

Here’s the link to the Powell story. I think it’s pretty self explanatory.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/26/powell.ap/index.html

Powell supports eavesdropping but questions bypassing court

Monday, December 26, 2005;

quote:

---

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Former Secretary of State Colin Powell on Sunday supported government eavesdropping to prevent terrorism but said a major controversy over presidential powers could have been avoided by obtaining court warrants.

---

Thank you so much DJ.

I knew I had read many articles about this but it was a while back and I don't like to say something I'm not sure of if there is no back up.

Thanks all for the input on beliefs and values. My apologies, Norma, for being US-centric. I should know better! LOL!

From everything that I've read, Vi has brought forth and my understanding of the Constitution of the US, it appears probable that the President broke the law as it stands.

Unfortunately, I've spent far too much of my time in courtrooms because I have child who has been in continual trouble. I have witnessed first-hand what is working and isn't working in the justice system. It is such a disembodied process. Having said that, it is the process we have and we have all agreed to support, or to work diligently to change.

Now we come to beliefs and values. I believe I am hearing two different beliefs being expressed on this thread. (If there are more, chime in!)

1. The President must operate within the laws of the U.S. -- no exception. If is suspected that he or she fails to obey the laws, he or she is subject to due process and a day in court. In the President's case, the Constitution defines that as impeachment.

2. The President must operate within the laws of the U.S. -- except in time of war and to protect U.S. citizens. If he or she fails to obey the laws, he or she has an opportunity to explain why the laws were broken. If the explanation is accepted by the people, then no impeachment proceedings are begun.

My belief falls with #1. And it doesn't matter to me which party the President belongs to. I hold the President to high standards.

The level of itellegence and knowledge I'm seeing here literally takes my breath away. I am learning so much from the well-espressed views on both sides of this discussion.

If only all political discussions everywhere were conducting with this level of respect and thought, we would probably all be better off.

Thank you to everyone who has helped teach me so many things I didn't understand before.

According to his testimony during the 9/11 hearings, Richard Clarke, the former National Coordinator for Counter-terrorism,
had requested an 'urgent' meeting 'on January 24,2001' with very key persons in the White House to address the threat of terrorist attacks against US targets..... that urgent request
apparently was not granted until Sept. 4 2001.

[ December 27, 2005, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

I have a few random thoughts after skimming through some of the information listed above.

1. Just because there is an article on the internet, magazine, television or newspaper does not mean it is the gospel truth. The majority of these news outlets are biased and I did see some of that on some links listed.

2. Spying - I am glad President Bush approved spying on possible terrorists who are calling the U.S. from other countries. He is charged with the safety of millions of citizens and if anything should happen again on our land, his head will be the one to roll.

3. Nations hating us - Some countries do hate us because they are envious of our society, not our democracy, although that is the reason we are a thriving country. They love our clothes, music, movies, and celebrities, but as their people begin to adopt our "style" of living, they lose their own heritage. They envy our prosperity, especially since we are a young country in relation to many others.

4. Economy - Our economy is thriving and the dow jones average will probably hit 1200 before the end of the year, that's a good sign that things are just fine. The unemployment rate is only around 5% nationwide. More people own their homes than ever. And yes, there are home repossessions, but we can't have a law against stupidity. The housing market is fine. People have been speculating in that market but it is slowing and will be back to normal, which is not a bad thing. All is not perfect, but especially considering that we lost an entire city and a global economy is causing change to take place - you must admit, it's pretty good.

5. We are at war - never in our past history have we given prisoners of war rights to our judicial system. It would cause turmoil in the courts and cost a tremendous amount of time and money. These people who hate us and want to kill us are religous zealots who have been taught their entire lives to hate Americans. Why would we want to give them access to our system which they dispise?

6. I don't understand how people cannot see the similarities between Hitler and Hussain. We consider our soldiers heroes who freed the prisoners from concentration camps in Germany, but when atrocities take place in other countries, such as Iraq, some Americans say stuff like, "we can't save the world, or it's taking money away from our schools."

7. President Bush is not a liar. He is a good man and I have total confidence that his motives for any action he takes is for the protection and benefit of our people. I don't understand why so many have such a hate for our President. I wish they could take their hate glasses off and see the truth. Our people need to be more united and get past all this partisianship. What ever happened to the dignity of politics? Our enemies love what is going on in our political arena.

Daisygirl

I wish it would stay in that arena and stop mucking up this forum....I said it before and will say it again, no matter what any President does, especially George W. Bush, he's dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't....and yes our enemies do love this kind of crap.