The history of the Middle East and America is so complicated, I'm not sure anyone can be fully informed. But to accept responsibility without evidence can be self destructive.

I certainly agree with your point about generational attitudes. I believe that attitudes of hatred and also attitudes of guilt can be passed from generation to generation.

But maybe we should all examine our long-held attitudes to determine if they still serve us and if they are based on fact or on myth.

Broad statement of fact not supported with evidence is Rhetoric and far too often lately, rhetoric is spoken as fact and reported as news. At this point in history, that could be both destructive and dangerous.

smile

If it's okay, let me show you some excellent 'facts' and it may at least, give you each a smile ...

my dad's parents came from Sweden and i happen to have a very large informative book which belonged to my grandfather. It was published in Minneapolis, Minn. in 1904 and was compiled and edited by the most learned Scandianvian
Professor Mr. O.N. Nelson, Ph. D. He showed through his collected data, who you can trust, and who you should beware of ....

"since each nationality and race has certain characteristics of virtue and vice ..." (according to Professor Nelson,) "a careful examination of the proportionate number of convicts by nationalities, may serve as a key to arrive at the causes which lead people to commit offenses against the law. "

Some of his definite conclusions based on studing inmate population within prisons ......

Illinois, 1880
"Those born in Canada have by far the worst showing , the proportion of convicts to the whole number being one to 479 " ..

Wisconsin, 1881-2
"One out of ever 3,021 convicts, Canadian born"
(the highest number in the record books)

1892
"Canada it should be noticed not only retains her position, but her standing is more than twice as ugly as ten years before and Ireland shows only one-forth as large a porportion of convicts as Canada"

"These figures throw a new and most important light on the criminality of the different nationalities. The Canadians retain their position, clearly proving themselves to be the most vicious class of citizens in the state."

He later goes on to study the number of immigrants in the 'insane asylums'.... where unfortunatly those of us with scandiavian blood didn't do to well.... but canadians, although the most 'vicious' had the fewest number committed to 'insane asylums'...

i forgot to mention, there were fewer scandianvians in prison populations, which obviously proves who makes the most law abiding citizens ... so now you know who to watch out for ...

[ February 18, 2006, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

I do feel I need to respond one last time. Smile, I have no animosity toward you whatsoever. My own family invited lively discussions at the dinner table, including all who had differing opinions (and even a raised voice was permissable if not a screaming one), so I respect yours. In fact, we had a great time and left feeling like we had learned something! The only rule was that we were not allowed to call each other names and resort to "hitting below the belt" (meaning personal attacks). Not that this has happened here at all, I'm just relating...I remember these discussions with fondness and a smile on my face. Oh yeah, and no fisticuffs either!!LOL

So - here is what I say. In respect to Dotsie's wish that we do not ask people to leave the site, I will refrain from giving links. But. If you will look in almost any history of Iraq and the West (which by THEIR definition includes both England and the United States) you will find related what I've said. Both histories BY the West and the Middle East each report the same events. It WAS promised that they should have their own rule, but was denied later. So this is not just rhetoric, but written history. Now that leads to another question, How accurate is written history? By whom was it written and what real credibility did they have? And as we know, if I wrote a history of my immediate family, and my sister did the same, they would surely differ. But overall, most facts would remain very similar.


So in that same spirit, I would like to say - Our shared history with the Middle East (and indeed, all the world) IS complicated. We, you and I , can never hope to know all that has truly occurred, nor all the implications. What I do know is this: if we all (all over this shrinking world) don't learn to respect our similarities more than our differences, we will never deviate from what has gone before. We will (as you have put it so well )never be able to know whether our long-held attitudes still serve us or are merely myth. There does need to be evidence - but evidence, on any side, is always plentiful - we need to get somewhere beyond this, a deeper understanding of what our humanity means in terms of our nations separateness, but also in terms of our shared experiences as human - beings. I still say that much of this also, is about class difference. Well, by that I mean wealth differences...And educational opportunities....We in the West, have so much these days, and most (notwithstanding their own wealthy, who, in my view, leave their masses to ruin )have barely an existence at all. To be swept up in any revolt which they think might better their current situation. A hungry man is easily led. And a hungry man is an angry one when he views others who are well fed .

To end, I invite you to pm me for further discussion, but I must leave this forum, because I know that this will only escalate, if not by myself or you, by others. It's just human nature. In forums, or war.

Respectfully, Searcher

Norma!

That is beyond a doubt, the most hilarious account of anything I've heard in a very long time!!!! You dastardly Canadians, you! You really insane, murderous, vicious people!!!! OMG, that is REALLY something. So much for statistics......OMG again - I think that's more important than it seems funny......that just has so many implications.... Wow. Thanks, Norma!!! Glad your family kept this and hope it will bring light to many.

Now I'm really going, I mean it! (just like Mamma, I really mean it this time!!!)

Search

Searcher, where are you going??? I hope you are only kidding. I'm sure many others share my feelings: I like you a lot so hope you mean you simply don't want to add anything else to this particular discussion.

oh, of course, Ladybug. I just think this particular discussion leads to escalation without some sort of mediator....Personally, I have fun with this sort of thing - well, maybe I shouldn't say fun, well, yeah, FUN, but it makes me think, come alive, be interested -- without bad feelings. But I think that in this type of situation, people have gotten beyond themselves and bad feelings HAVE developed. A pity. And I don't wish to contribute to that - I think that a personal conversation might be just fine.....we'll see.

I personally, would like to invite such discussions, with rules as I have described adhered to - but the past conversations on political issues have proved too confrontational to be of value - (not including the present one - but fearing it might) so am just refraining from posting on this particular issue further.

Thank you , Ladybug, I like you too!!! Not leaving BWS, just this conversation for now!

Search

Good, I'm glad to hear it Searcher. I know what you mean and sometimes I enjoy a lively debate too but not with feelings getting hurt or misunderstandings. That happens too easily because we can't hear or see each other and maybe things come across harshly and they aren't meant to be...so...see you in another topic?

Certainly!

And I agree with you, without the addition of body language and voice inflections , etc. things easily get misinterpreted. Altho this is a great way to make contact with others, it's not perfect either......Yeah, see you in other topics!

Searcher, just a couple more interesting historical facts from Professor Nelson, so you wont have the wrong impression of scandiavians and think their higher numbers in 'asylums' indicated something uncommon.....

"wealthy americans do not send their .... kindred to a state institution, but to a private asylum, from which it is difficult to secure any reliable statistical reports."

"the .... statistics of Illinois must nessarily be defective, because yearly reports from the Cook county insane asylum present the appearance of having been prepared and edited by the ..... themselves." therefore "using the same data as above, but leaving out entirely the returns of the insane asylum of Cook county,
the proportion (of scandianavians in asylums) changes."

Certain statistics, "indicate that the Scandiavian-born inhabitants of Iowa, send a larger proportion of their ... to the state hospitals than some other nationalities do."


"Perhaps a majority of scandinavians in america take a more serious interest in spiritual matters than the majority of other people and persons have out of ignorance, taken advantage of this earnestness, and incited them beyond their strength"

"It is often asserted that the gulf between the .... and the genius is not great."

"Probably the recent immigrants have been of such high nervous temperament that their fine fibers have been unable to properly endure the strain of the new conditions in America, and in their desire to become wealthy and wise ..... have had to pay the price "

"Besides, the native-born population as a whole, has achieved material independence to a greater degree, and as a consequence, are in better position than immigrants to take care of their .... relatives, especially the less dangerous ones."

I've deleted some of the words he wrote, because
they are so bad .... anyway, point is Searcher, up here, not only do we have the problem of being vicious and criminally minded because we are canadian, but the temperments of many of us get quickly stressed due to our inherited scandianvian fibers .....

(hi Ladybug, just seen your posting, i didn't mean to not say hello...)

[ February 18, 2006, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Oh, good grief, Norma,

How skewed IS this world? And by the way, just WHO were the Vikings? Certainly a people with temperments too quickly stressed? Or incited beyond their strength? Tell THAT to my Irish ancestors!!!! Poor Scandi's with their weak fibers...