Newleaf, I find it very troubling that, in one breath, you compare autism, homosexuality, and Dahmer.

Autism and homosexuality are facts of birth. They are not sins. Homosexuality was declared sinful by religions that understood that the fastest way to increase its religious ranks is to birth them.

Jeffrey Dahmer made a conscious choice to kill people and chop them up for dinner. If he indeed "found" God (and I seriously doubt that he could have), it was way too late for his victims and their grieving families. If you believe in a God that forgives brutalization, dismemberment, and cannibalization, then that's your right.

But I believe we are known by our actions, and known by our love. And homosexuals are as capable of love as anyone else.

I read through all these threads yesterday an by the end..I was in tears. I dispair greatly when enyone pigeon holes me in a box of any kind, but what saddens me and maddens me more is that I allegedly have a 'symptom'...like an affliction! I am put in a box along with peadophiles, rapists and murderers...and therefore, damned to hell. In all societies, most child abusers are white, middle class, middle aged males.
I personally do not beleive in hell. Hell in my veiw is what I create in the here and now...and if there is any wrong doing in that...my morality states that I put it right before I go back to the loving, compassionate, forgiving God who created me...this way, I become closer. The entity spoken of earlier in my veiw is my free will...and the actions that come from that. If my actions hurt myself or anyone else, I then also have the free will to make it good. As a rule I tend not to be forceful in opinion.....but sometimes I tire of the constant external fight against those who would have me 'damned to hell'.
I ended up in a psych ward at the age of fifteen because I was told I was possessed with the devil, this from a member of 'The Cloth' who was already being 'sexually inappropriate' I was told this and many other terrifying things because I faught against such violation for myself and for other little girls at my school. People were more terrified of 'the establishment' concerned...so all our protests went out to closed ears and minds! Adults knew what was happening and did nothing.
In a few days from now...I will marry the person I was born to end my days with...and I won't let my mind or life be sullied with the 'hate the sin, love the sinner' cr&p. It is a sad state of affairs when I am despised, pitied, mocked and feared because I a have the courage to remain committed to the purity of love. When I love myself enough, my god is within, when I love my self enough...nothing will deter me from the closeness I feel.

Popea

Po, it breaks my heart to know the concerns of your heart. A very dear friend who was a homosexual commit suicide at such a young age. He was one of the most loving, caring, accepting, brilliant guys I've ever known. His death had a profound impact on how I look at others because he never told me/us he was homosexual. I'd heard bits and pieces from others, but it broke my heart that he didn't share that with my husband and me. I had to examine myself and wonder if it was because he thought we would love him less. This happened almost 25 years ago so I've had lots of time to think about it.

Popea
I am so happy for you and Celtic. You have found the person that you belong with for the rest of your life and she feels the very same way. How lucky and how rare.

I am sorry for all you have gone through and, unfortunately, may continue to go through. Please remember that most people are good deep in their hearts. What others feel about homosexuality has nothing to do with you personally. It may be a lack of knowledge, deep seeded beliefs, or prejudice, but what ever it is, it is not directed at any one person. And it definitly is not directed at the two of you - Two of the most loving people that I have had the priviledge to know.

I am sooooo happy for the two of you and promise that my heart and soul with be with all of you next Thursday as you share your vows.

Love, Ann

How can loving anyone be a sin? Like so many other doctrines...it doesn't make sense to me. I Thank God I have a mind of my own to decide what I think is right or wrong.

Well...then just count me to the sinners, cause I am soooo happy that you and Celtic are a part of this forum, and spread so much joy and love amongst us. Please Popea, you do know that most of us would never ever think of putting you and Celtic in such a despicable category. For my part, you belong to the blessed and privileged to have found the love of your lives. That's more than a lot of us can say.

Po, we all love you and I agree with Hannelore. Any one who finds love is blessed. I sure haven't found it so I say live your true life and stay with us. Merdith, you go, girl!

Meradith
thanks for pointing that out...the proximity of the wording etc...In fact the wordings of the post pricise and spot on and i am glade it didn't come from a lesbian.

The rest of you ladies thanks for having the guts and courage just to share openly and warmly your support and care for po.

She a sensitive we soul and it aint often she writes more than a few sentencies so she got fired up, hit a nerve and as we put it heer emphtied her belly..(thoughts on things)think the expresion and reafirming of who she is and how she lives did the trick,

so one and all thank you....you did it better more politly and inteligently than i would have

celtic_flame

Society's a funnie thing and it's full of people with differring ideas and attitudes that in itself can make a rich and intresting life to walk throw....the title of this posting is society and it's reactions and as we can read their many diffrent reactions.

Meeting and living throw them daily can be tiring as it can be for any one who isen't white middle class educated, male and christion. We all have been subjected to prejudice weather we know it or not for the simple reason we are women...and their still gender diffrences in the realities of life, in this day and age.

The more you differ from the accepted norm the more the predijice surfaces and damages in terms of work, place to live childcare, treatment from bank managers etc. the key term is damage becouse thats whot predijices dose at it's slightest level.

In this country personal safty is threatend. Homosexuality is classed as antisocial behaviour....i have lesbian frends that have been gang raped in their own home by masked parimilitories who did so justified that she was wrong and he was right....sick justificasion, homosexual men are also raped and betten close to death, WHY!!! sections of society deems them to be wrong, perverted and something to be feared therfore attacked...Strang justificasion for rape and thats all it is justificasion.....besikly for one person saying I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG

I know not all christiens feel the same and certinly would't go to such extreem methods in proving their point or in trying to change behaviour or thought becouse what the examples that i have written about show's is extreems of behaviour and the "im right your wrong" attitude.

The less extreem prejudiced behaviours hurt hinder and harden harts and attitudes and damage lives. It's worth thinking about to those that haven't already thought about it..

in real terms what is the harm one is doing my brother/sistere in holding thse thougts unchallenged or questioned and as though drives behaviour very often action. In other words the consiquinces of belife to whomever dos not sit right in the middle of accepted society.

Just by patrinising someone your potencially hurting them....tell them their not worthy of gods love or a place in heven can potencilly be disastrise to their lives for the rest of their life.

How much harm could that do anyone? at anyage. Dose god/godess universall spirite really exclude some of us from their love? if so how then can that devine spark really be uncondiosonally loving? I am blessed to belive in a godess that loves uncondisionally who i am and what i do whenever i give of their light...Not becouse i am a lesbian that needs to view god this way in order to save my soul but becouse i am a humane being whose hart tells me this in relashion to all beings.

Now i love debatting godess, spirite and matters of the hart and morality. I learn from it my attitudes widen and I get to accept another persons reality that has been shared with me but please don't stand behind doctrinasion as if you have no other choice but to adhear to it regardless of what it means or what you belive, have the strenth to stand by your convictions as an individuel capible of thought rational and make your decisions don't be indoctrinated into them please. The beuty about us all is that we are indivduel and as indivduels we have a wealth of though and experiences regardless of what they may be....

Please never stop talking about the goddess/god but please don't exclude a section of us from her love and harbour

Over heer it's very very late and i have been on the go constantly for 17 hours so excouse the fuzzy thinking and rambling at bits. .... night

oh and ladies love you

Quote:

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Dose god/godess universall spirite really exclude some of us from their love? if so how then can that devine spark really be uncondiosonally loving?

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Celtic, I agree with you totally here. I feel the love of god/dess all around me, waiting for me to reach out and touch it. It's often me getting in my own way when I can't feel that love. If I look for the faults within others, I can't see them in myself. If I'm not grateful for the love and wisdom and beauty of all others, then I shut my eyes and heart to the love and beauty of God/desses' work around me in everyone. There is so much work to be done on this planet in terms of poverty and war and the environment, that I just don't get this issue at all. The world is a more blessed and wonderful place with two people in love like you and Po. Thank you for sharing your love with us and allowing us to celebrate, although a bit far away, the beauty of your love and the magnificent energy you are adding to the world.

Once again, someone expresses their beliefs and it is taken completely out of context and made into something quite different from its original intent.
First of all, I don't hate anyone, especially anyone on this forum. I am deeply sorry you have experienced such horrific treatment in your life as many of us have and lived through it.
Second I'm not prejudiced toward you or anyone involved in their religion of choice or their preferences.
Lets set the record straight. Its not anymore about love and finding your soulmate as it is for anyone else. I agree with you there.
Its my belief that if you truly love someone that love is so strong and so pure that you wouldn't want to hurt them for anything in the world. They are so dear to you and so precious. If that were the case one wouldn't want to cause that person to fall down or come to any harm at all especially they wouldn't want to interfere with that person's spiritual health or prospects for salvation.
Because we want what we want and we want it now...we invent our own belief systems and twist and design those systems to fit our own desires and wishes. "Little Johnny, don't go out and play in that busy intersection or you'll get run over and possibly killed!" "But, Mommy, I want to go play in the intersection." so little Johnny makes up his own rules and I'm sure you might guess the end result.
Personally, I have enough problems in my own life to spend even one more drop of ink or one more moments brain matter on this discussion as it won't make one whits difference anyway.
I'm not angry, just tired, very, very tired. Can we move on to something less controversial?
You are all wearing me out clapping yourselves on the back. Its OK for you to believe as you do,,,but I'm a bigot for believing in what I would give my life for as the truth? Oh, OK.....