Eventually, this singular ember will find a welcoming hearth.

"...singular embers and welcoming hearths"...well, got to commend you ladies on your poetic phrasing. :-)

Thanks Edelweiss. There's such a sadness in my heart in any discussion about church these days. Not just my own, but for all of the marginalized people who struggle to find a community that can embrace all.

MA, regarding your earlier post. A few years ago after both hubby and I decided to leave the Catholic Church, we went on an extensive search for a new community church. We eventually found it, a wonderful, warm congregation that embraces people from every imaginable background and walk of life. The minister was a guy that I used to babysit when he was a little boy. He's married, with three children, and his sermons were well listened to because they were humourous and relevant, connecting the scriptures to everyday family life. On our first Sunday there, it took us over an hour to get out because everyone stopped to talk with us. It was wonderful.

He has since transferred elsewhere, and the church is now pastored by a wife/husband team, both of whom are fully ordained ministers.

What I really loved about this church was its inclusiveness. Women were an integral part of the community and were not only invited, but EXPECTED to fully participate in every aspect of the life and service within the church...including ministry, pastoral care, giving sermons, etc, etc. It was the first church I'd ever been in where women weren't automatically relegated to the kitchen to help serve the coffee, LOL!

This church was/is still packed every Sunday. Women run scripture schools during the week, pastoral care training sessions, after-Church seminars for everyone...the congregation also does fun things together throughout the week. This little church is vibrant, filled with music, families, children. Nobody was excluded...the altar is wheelchair accessible, gay couples are welcome with open arms, women, or sometimes husband-wife teams give sermons, and ordained women ministers often precide. To me, this is the epitome of church.

All to say that, IMO, the church loses too much when it sublimates and alienates any "singular ember" of its community for any reason, in particular when it bars, or restricts the extent to which women and married ministers can or cannot participate.

I've read this entire post and here's where I stand.
We're screwed! RADICAL Islam is going to eventually seep into as many countries as possible, and they're not being quiet about it (watch the rallies where they speak about nuking the very countries in which they live).
Wake up people. Jewish, Christian, anything that isn't Islamic...will one day, eventually have to face the fight of the Muslim...I suspect the peaceful Muslim will have to decide which side they are on eventually...sort of like when the Germans were faced with Nazism...they had to go along or be killed.
I have always been an advocate against prejudice. I do not judge anyone on the color of their skin so before anyone says I am, I'll tell you right now that you are wrong.
I will never stand for a culture/religion that wants to strip away what MY country was founded on and FORCE themselves, their laws and their degredation of women and human beings into their way only of thinking.
You tell the Mother of the man who was snatched off the street of an European country (he was Jewish) and tortured by a Muslim group while the parents heard him on the phone screaming...they were saying because they are not Muslim that they are being punished. You tell that Mother that this religion is peaceful and has only the want to practice their relgion in other countries. Are you kidding me? Their son's screaming wasn't paranoia...it was torture!!! The bombing of the bus in London wasn't meant to spread peace...it was meant to send a message and there are people who are willing to do this in the name of Islam penetrating themselves into every corner of this planet.
I know exactly what Edelweiss is saying and I agree with her 100% and one day our grandchildren will look up and have to deal with this on the streets of this country and not in a good way. Hell, it may even be in my lifetime.
This doesn't have anything to do with prejudices...it has to do with a group of terrorists who hide behind a book whose God tells them to overrun the infidel...and people WE are the infidel.
Our political politeness is going to get many, many, many people murdered and one day this country overrun. It happened in Europe...it will happen again.
If you have not listened to the nuts speaking at these rallies then you're being foolish.
Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I do not intend to respond back to this forum or get involved in any heated arguments...this is how I feel and I am speaking my mind. I defend Edelweiss and stand with her.

And, I sincerely hope so, Eagle. Remember "The Silent Sermon" which someone posted here before?

---------

And if the preacher of his small Florida church (who is enjoying this worldwide attention according to the locals who dislike this crazed pastor. Read my earlier post near beginning where a firefighter/ems worker works in the same town as this pastor in Florida. From a cycling forum where I participate.) does burn the Koran, that single image will be filmed to the Muslim countries..and everyone over there will think many parts of U.S. and Canada are burning with rage too against Muslims and the Koran.

Talk about news media distortions.
which will only harden people on different sides of this debate.

Political correctness...? I pointed earlier how Canadian Muslim feminists struck down attempt to propose shariah law in Ontario. Of course, they easily had other suppporters.

This fall my state will vote on a question regarding using Sharia law. At first I thought the sponsor must be insane -- we have no lack of religious kooks in this state -- but now I wonder. Yes, it's good that women in Canada helped keep shariah law from being accepted in Ontario, but why did people want to do it in the first place? I mean, I understand why some people wanted it instituted, but this is one of the reasons people are so suspicious of new groups who seem ike they want to establish an enclave in another country.

I can only imagine the administrative nightmares regarding domestic violence, divorce, education, custody, etc., when people want to set up their own laws in some areas but expect to receive the benefits of the new country in others.

And I think that pastor who wants to burn the books is a nut. There's no good purpose to this and it will only harden people against each other. Even if you don't care for someone's religion or lifestyle, making such a offensive gesture does no good.

Maybe Ellen, alot of non-Muslim feminists don't understand sharia law.

From a national Canadian newspaper, National Post, which does tend to lean to right-wing. But I think there's truth to what the writer say:



This is why Muslim feminists must continue to be allowed to speak out worldwide. Particularily the educated ones who are smart enough not to be brainwashed and become another suicide bomber with explosives on their body....

I might read abit more abut Irshad's take on this..later -- the Canadian Muslim feminist. Yea, I admit I'm partial to someone from Vancouver/Toronto. Since I've lived /live in these cities for last 30 years of my life with huge diverse populations. A person gets the "tenor" of other citizen who grew up in the same place.

It doesn't surprise me she's a cross-cultural, interfaith bridge..alot of 2nd, 3rd generations end up..sometimes not by choice. But by necessity, in order to have decent family relationships across a mix of beliefs.

Cross-cultural bridge is bit of curse when one is young because a kid has to defend themselves, explain themselves over and over, choose which side to take, think too much, cry too much, but an enormous gift later as an adult if one is not afraid.

Cultural relativity is arbitrary pick-and-choose filtered through the lens of political correctness.

If one actually believes that we shouldn't interfere within someone else's cultural sensitivities, then why did those very same people oppose apartheid? Either you let a culture/religion/political entity decide its own fate, or you don't.

Within my lifetime, I can cite a very loooooong list of political inconsistencies within the PC mantra.

Either you oppose the subjeugation and brutalization of women, or you don't. Abuse doesn't become more palatable because we wish to curry political favor with the abusers.