Bride burning and widow burning practices are not confined to particular religion.

And they are a minority. It is not religion based. no matter how we look at it.

This forum will never expand to include women outside of the Judeo-Chistian sphere....because there is too much expressed fear and misunderstanding. I would welcome that Anne actually invites an educated Muslim women or 2 to participate in this forum regularily.

I'm disappointed. I'm going for a bike ride.

Edelweiss, I agree with your Dali Lama quote:

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples;
No need for complicated philosophy.
Our own brain, our own heart is our temple;
The philosophy is kindness.

I also do not associate with any particular religion.

Edelweiss, we have a huge Muslim community here in Metro Vancovuer. It maybe larger than Berlins because ....it's Canada and its reputation overseas for potential immigrants.

Crime due Muslims in our area. No, it's drugs, theft, the usual crap..since we are close to the U.S. less than 40 kms. north of the U.S. So too much junk going on.

I wouldn't be blaming Muslims for this stuff that's for sure (not they are all crime-free, but no different from non-Muslims).

Whenever there is a shooting involving Canadian Asians, people start going little wierd.

It may well be also that German law is different from Canadian law...we have our own problems but when there is a national policy and law on equal treatment of people for hiring, housing,etc., it helps set the basic tone/framework for how to behave with one another as we encounter each other on the street, in shops, in the office... Not perfect, but it helps. Does German law provide this basic understanding?

I am critical here because for the German firm I worked for that is international and around for last 30 years, I checked its' annual report....none of the executives had a non-white face. Only 1 woman on the board of directors. In Vancouver newsletter, for all 10 issues they kept highlighting the German workers and managers. No non-white faces in the photos (we must have had a workforce of ....600 people of which at least 20% if the workforce were non-white. Several were university-educated in supervisory positions. Featured at all in their Canadian newsletters? Never.). Snobbish, sorry.

When there are hardworking locals in Nigeria, China, Tawain, Vietnam,...where this firm has its megamillion dollar projects and hire such hundreds of local people, they never photograph them. What type of corporate message is that by a firm?

Germany has come a long way but lots more to work on.

Muslims by the way, are not foreign. I sense this underlying tone, profoundly in many of our discussions. In North America, is to remember more and more will/are native born. Born in Canada and U.S. Or have become citizens legally.

The problem is that most Moslems that immigrate to Germany come from primitive villages. It’s these people that hold on to their medieval traditions. Turkish people coming from Istanbul are modern thinking, and can’t come to terms with the other sects either. So yes, you are all right, not all Moslems treat their women like low dogs. But most of the turkish immigrants come from these villages, so that is what we see here in Germany.

Odd that nobody commented on the domestic killings going on in these families. Did you know that the men go unpunished, or at the most become a symbolic punishment, ( of course in Turkey, not in Germany)?

Berlin has a lot of immigrants, and sadly enough, many of these immigrants are here because they are fleeing from poverty in their own countries. I guess you can compare it to the Mexican immigrants; Not only Turks, but many Russians, Polish people and Africans.

They need to pass a law in Germany that immigrants must learn the language within a certain time period. Do they have that law in Canada, Orchid? Not speaking the language alienates foreigners.

Orchid, as far as being critical because a German company only hired Germans, well frankly I wonder how many Chinese companies hire white people. I really don’t think it has anything to do with snobbery. It’s just a matter of statistics. I know and admire Canada for its open mindedness and especially being such a melting pot for all races and religions. Germany’s face has changed quite a bit. It’s not the blond, blue eyed, white complexion anymore. You see many mixed marriages here, and as far as I can tell, discrimination just doesn’t happen. You may be surprised to hear that a large movement of young Israelites are immigrating to Germany as well.

Germany as well as Austria, France, and Holand have always housed immigrants from Italy, Spain and Poland. They were welcomed, for they were hard working folks that never misused the hospitality. The Turks are different, though. They keep to themselves, don’t mingle or try to adapt to their new home country. Most can’t find jobs, because they don’t even finish their schooling, and end up on welfare. This causes bitterness,….in any country. And to make it more aggravating, they will build their mosque, and be secretive as to whatever they are preaching about. So it is an all around picture.

I hope I was able to explain my stance on this. I am the last person that discriminates. This isn’t about race, Orchid. It’s about facts and putting them together. I think it creates a scary picture.

I can’t help but think, Dancing Dolphin, if there were no organised religion in this world, how peaceful this place would be.

Edelweiss, I was talking about a German firm conducting business for 3 years on Canadian soil, in Vancouver suburbs. They were to operate within Canadian law and workplace culture.

600 employees at least 20% non-white, no photographs in any of our 10 newsletters featuring these employees. The Canadian managers got tired...even those who were white.

No there is no law that mandates a person must learn the one of the official languages within a deadline. Of course by logic, it just shuts a person out of jobs. So that's the lesson for the non-learner. Do we need more penalties than that?

I don't think it's even realistic, Edelweiss. People learn language at different pace and need to have time to learn which is tough if they are juggling full-time job and child care.

I have forgotten so much French myself yet, I had intensive courses at university. 2 years ago, I failed the written test and barely passed the verbal/comprehension test. It was a 3-hr. test. Thorough. A requirement for certain Canadian federal govn't jobs. The last time I took a French course was 20 yrs. ago.

Would foreign language testing stand any acceptance of mandatory non-English language test in the U.S.? I doubt, there would be alot of people shrieking over English unilingual rights.

The biggest joke of all, Edelweiss if you speak with English teachers and professors of English language and literature, they will tell you of Americans or Canadians born in their respective countries, who cannot speak or write whole paragraphs nor essays that are grammatically correct. All we have to do is to look at the plethora of personal blogs: some people are truly bewildering. They truly cannot write on 1 theme or 1 topic in 1 blog post with proper sentence structure and make sense to the reader. A typo or grammar error here and there on the rare occasion, is excusable for an informal blog. But when many blog posts are just incomprehensible in English, then one wonders about the person's literacy level.

As for "primitive" Muslims who might have less progressive attitudes: Is it all that bad in Germany? I doubt it. The 2nd and 3rd generation often changes that because they become assimilated /acculturated. Every wave of immigrants has shown this over and over.

As for domestic violence and abuse within families it's in every community, since this forum has its own members who have been victims. Enough said.

I would need to hear a bunch of Turkish-Germans, perhaps those 2nd generation who can articulate in English to hear their side and difficulties. Do alot of Germans think Turks tend to be xxxx and xxxx (substitute xxx for any bad/negative trait)? This confirms what my partner said, who was furious several years ago after he visited some relatives in Germany: he felt the attitude about the Turks from his relatives was rude/bad enough that he didn't want me to meet /be with some of these relatives.

The 2nd generation probably know German by now. Assimilation, as you know, is pretty powerful. Doesn't take much to lose a mother tongue. Only a few years, I'm a living example.

Please don't tell me to take Chinese language courses. I have no one to practice this on. I have no motivation to speak to strangers in Chinatown. All my friends speak English, including those of Chinese descent (which aren't many. Contrary to outsiders who think like-race, like-culture people cluster together like magnets)..they are like me. They have lost so much of the language because like me, we're part of Canadian culture...we hire whites, etc.

We ARE Canadian culture.

Orchid, since you obviously don’t believe the situation is as bad as I have described, then just look in the internet under Honor Killings in Islamic practice in Berlin.
Here is one link among hundreds:
LINK

I don’t see how you can compare Islamic Honor killings with domestic violence.

Islam’s global war against Christianity
LINK2

Check out Youtube…There you can hear Turkish Germans say how it is.

Orchid, I never said you should take Chinese courses. Why do you think that? You live in Canada. For some reason, I feel you are taking this discussion very personally. Sorry, if it is getting to you.

The good news is there is a growing movement, not only internationally but within Islamic feminist groups, revealing the problems and where the women hope to make progress. I have participated in demonstrations supporting these women.

Sorry if i'm taking this personally...but I see the misunderstanding parallel...lumping a bunch of people and thinking that alot are "bad".

Like I said earlier there are Muslim feminists in your country and worldwide. So we are on the same page. Some are impressively articulate --in English. Some do hold PhD's. That would be my measure of progress...if the women are allowed educational opportunities and matching job, decision-making roles in politics.

I should ask one friend ..she is Canadian born Chinese who recently married a Muslim East-Indian Canadian. They live in Toronto. She met the guy through speed dating. So obviously he is contemporary Muslim, not an adherrent to arranged marriages. i never got around to figuring how things are except she's a cyclist and he's an ardent car driver.

Does German law put the murderers to court trial for murder/homicide for the honour killings? That would be a strong message to everyone.

they do here in Canada, it's treated like any other murder/homicide under the Criminal Code of Canada.

As for honour killings, etc.....red herrings for other women who are killed/shot in domestic violence because ...there's no good reason. Do we run around say, let's kick out these non-Muslim people out of Canada? Sometimes, but we don't use 1 or 10 Caucasian murderers and proclaim that all Caucasians should get out of the country.

Here in British Columbia there is long expensive court hearing of a serial killer (white) who murdered and axed over 20 women then buried them on his pig farm..some were prostitutes, others aboriginal/native Indian women. It is a huge concern in women's groups because perhaps the police..didn't act on the investigation soon enough, that the lives of these women weren't valued enough because they were prostitutes, aboriginal.

I hope the Muslim feminists continue to speak out. No, excuse me..I mean German feminists. They aren't really just Muslim, they are German..if they are citizens of Germany. Correct?

Honest, I think the big cities for Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal have women's support shelters with multilingual staff to provide support immigrant women in dangerous situations. I know because of articles written in last few years, also because I did do volunteer work for an organization where some of our board directors were involved in such service support to non-English speaking clients.

For such support to be provided, there does need to be some funding, articulate/educated trained women and men to assist on a regular basis and also speak in those languages. It does involve the counselling and health care professionals.

Race and misunderstandiing, is something always lurking in the background. Even if one tries to ignore it. In a recent poll (getting back to the mosque proposed to NYC), more Americans were actually believing that President Obama was Muslim! So pathetic. Pathetic that at the time of election, there had to be a photocopy of his American citizenship card, copious explanation that he had a Kenyan father, etc. but he was raised in Hawaii.

Unbelievable most people (Americans) did not question citizenship of Bush, Clinton, Ford, etc. So pathetic.

Most likely "A" granddaughter will have to explain her citizenship to people to clarify..over and over when she becomes an adult and starts travelling beyond home borders.

As for the global war against Christianity...really? I guess Canada is pretty quiet. The bombs here aren't Muslim related..anyway bombs don't happen often. Church attendance is dropping off for other reasons, which people in BWS have discussed over the last few years. It wouldn't be surprising that suddenly an influx of immigrants some who may be Muslim, Hindu,etc....suddenly looks like alot.

But then I'm not Christian so maybe I don't feel the same threat or urgency to do something (I haven't a clue what I should do even if there were alot more Muslim-Canadians. Got any ideas that are palatable?)

It is a simple fact that the Islam claims they are the one and only religion and their aim is to spread out in the world and take over. Did you read the links I posted?

Once again I don't care if these people are green or purple. But just for your information I consider them white. This is NOT a racial issue, and I do resent that you keep insisting on that.

You asked; " I haven't a clue what I should do even if there were alot more Muslim-Canadians. Got any ideas that are palatable?"

The best thing is not let it get out of hand. Just like in your private or business life, when you are out of control, it's too late. So precaution is what I advise here. Of course don't throw the Muslims out of the country, (You are putting words in my mouth!) Take control as to how many Muslims should be allowed to immigrate. Services should be held openly, no secret meetings, should be allowed and Burkas should be banned on American soil. Do you believe the Islams would be as tolerant to the Western people immigrating to their countries?

Koran teachings do not fit into a democratic world. Yes, many other religions have preached the same, but have moved on. Besides, two wrongs do not make a right. Jeez no wonder men have control for so long. Women are making excuses and closing their eyes to reality. While Islamic women are desperately fighting the system, America is opening its portals, like many other countries, and allowing it to continue. That does not make sense to me.

We have little towns in Germany, where the mosques are larger than the church steeples. It's already out of control. And why? Because politicians are afraid to get labelled as racist,from people like you, who claim that “Race is always lurking in the background”.

I'm not politically savvy, nor do I have stats at hand, but I do have many Christiam cousins who are working in various missionary programs who will tell you that there is a systematic persecution and eradication of Christians by Muslim extremists everywhere they work. It's still a rather "silent" issue here, and I don't know why. But there are many countries, including India and parts of Africa where Christians ARE being persecuted and killed for their faith. Again, I don't have the energy to research links for you, but if you Google, they're there.

While we do want to check our hearts to make sure our attitudes aren't being racist-driven, there does come a point, IMHO, where we can take the blinders off and admit that there's something to be wary of here. I live in a multi-cultural neighbourhood, people of every race, colour, religion, cultural background. The only ones in this neighbourhood who smile and say hello to my face, but call me an "infidel" under their breath, are the Muslim boys two doors down. They don't even hide it. I find that kind of duplicity scary, because it's becoming more and more prevalent...have you read about the recent arrests here in Ottawa? Guys just like my neighbours have been sitting in their houses for months/years, being doctors, medical technicians, greeting their neighbours with smiles, one was even on Canadian Idol, but all that time, they've been accumulating materials and blueprints and schematics to blow up the Parliament Buildings here in Ottawa. THAT'S SCARY!!! How do you know who to trust when these very friendly Muslim men are also calling their neighbours "infidels" and planning to blow us all up??

I'm very much a live-and-let-live person, but as I say, there comes a time when one has to take the naive blinders off and call a spade a spade.