I understand how you must feel. However, your experience which bears similarities to that of Ellemm's, does not reflect collective practice. In the circumstances similar to your old Parish, the usual recourse is at Diocesan level, or within individual Parish Councils, in order that the Priest could be advised that preferential treatment was/is wrong.

I think I already mentioned that I'm not concerned that women cannot be ordained. And I'm sorry, I found the writer's tone in that link to be really unnecessarily unpleasant. There's no doubt that women are an important part of any church, so that's no surprise, but that doesn't make them equals.

Put simply, women don't make any of the 'rules' in the Catholic church (and they don't in nearly any church). No matter how fervent or sacrificial or even argumentative certain women are, their efforts have little to no effect on how Catholics are taught to practice their own beliefs. I mean, how can they be? Christ's ordained representatives on earth are men, not women.

As Eagle Heart said, women can be and are allowed to participate in many liturgical practices, but that's the point: they're allowed, not entitled. (Even some Protestant churches have basically fired women from Sunday School as the minister decided to take a harder stand on women's participation.) I cannot agree that local practices are not reflective of the wider organization; that's, after all, where most Catholics live their daily lives. What's allowed is what's believed in. I'd say that about any group, secular or religious.

I'm not arguing that this is wrong or should be changed, it just is. I'm also not, by the way, trying to imply that the Church's practices are equivalent to refusing education to women or locking them in their homes. I just think that women may be socially equal, but they're nowhere close in terms of religion. Sometimes the separations are more subtle, but they're no less powerful.

Edelweiss, a proposed legislation for Ontario on shariah law was struck down a few years ago. In the end, it was the Canadian Muslim feminists and its supporters who launched strong opposition. How critical it is to educate women and give them all (educated and less educated) equal space to debate, criticize and to be heard.

I don't know if the speaker in that videoclip was quoting German judges out of context on merely quoting shariah law. But then, as soon as I hear people, "decyring dismantling of our heritage"...

Hmmmm. Really?
Many assimilated 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation who has lost their mother tongue fluency, left their church / synagogue/ temple know it doesn't take another religious/ethnic group that merely exists peacefully next door or down the street to cause them to dilute 'their heritage'. It's personal choice and preference by an individual of what actions the person takes. As some of the women here in BWS already have expressed their personal choices with respect to their religion/church membership.

I was a supervised and trained 2 German young women in their late 20's 2 yrs. ago. One of them who was 100% German by blood, said she absolutely had no interest in the dirndl, lederhosen and all that old German stuff. She was born and raised in Germany. Not a Christan believer.

The other was actually of Croatian descent. She immigrated to Germany with family when she was a child.

Both intelligent, hard-working folks.

I can't believe majority desire to allow polygamy in Western countries or sanctioned. For certain, alot of Asian folks aren't interested because of the long convoluted, often dysfunctional family relationships over in multiple wives, concubines for the rich in China, Japan up to the early 20th century. I have 2 close friends who's grandfathers each had 2 wives. They sure didn't like the concept of 2 grandmothers for 1 grampy. And they didn't like talking about it. The people are dead by now...last 20 yrs. Of course those marriages "existed", but were phased out.

Actually we have a small polygamous Mormon sect in Bountiful, British Columbia (yes, that's the name of the municipality) in rural region. The court casse is being tried in the B.C.courts right now. Some of his wives have left the sect/marriage.

Why do people worry about something so rare, esoteric as polygamy anyway? Alot of immigrants come from some cultures that did have it but no longer. These same people know how dysfunctional family relationships result from polygamy anyway. Most people don't want it. Jealousy, fighting and other energy-consuming stuff. Just read the historic biographies....

I never saw any mosques when we were in Black Forest region and we were in the rural areas cycling through for several days. But then I didn't go out of my way to search for them. Probably the land is so expensive/valued there(since it is a wine growing region) and in the hands of many generations that prevents it to be sold off to anyone else. Also zoning requirements to preserve green space probably, etc.

Saw lots of churches ..just like the tourist literature. Not sure what the membership of the churches in the rural areas would be....

But in the end, in Europe and as well as Asian countries, the definition of national identity more defined by blood, than adopted citizenship by immigrants, might rule in the end.

Or maybe use of too much English worldwide (because the Internet is dominated by English language and international business, and scientific language is English) in the next 100 yrs., will cause erosion of other languages, thereby culture. (since language and culture are inextricably linked together)

I have to leave here..to do some work.

Considering that there are religious communities for women, as there are for men, supports the praxi of equality. Communities of religious women make their rules for their respective congregation which are approved by the Vatican, for so long as those rules exist in communion with the theological doctrine of the Catholic Church. Vatican exercises the same with religious communities for men. The Benedictine and Franciscan Orders have their female counterparts established by St Scholastica (sister of St Benedict) in the 1st Century and St Clare, founder of the Poor Clares in the 13th Century. What applied then is still the norm. Whilst Jesus ordained men for the priesthood which makes them in persona Christi in celebration of the Sacraments, women are not excluded from the missions of the Church because their work is in the spirit of Christ. It does not make women subordinate to men but equal to men. Otherwise, the theological implication is that women cannot redeem herself for God's graces by virtue of gender.



Who said they are not entitled? The fact that EH was not able to participate under another Priest is non sequitur. Should we ignore the former experience on the basis of another? Does'nt it make more sense to attribute that to an obvious mistake by the Priest concerned rather than the Church?

I think it makes more sense for me not to make any more comments on this particular part of the topic.

This whole discussion is a "deja vu" experience for me...been there, done that, heard it all, it still doesn't address, attempt to fix, understand or "get" the personal experience that too many women in many churches, synagogues and mosques experience within the confines (more like tidy little boxes in the back closet) of institutionalized religion. The few who have found a welcoming niche and soul-nourishing purpose within those patriarchal walls are fortunate, and hopefully are working from within to make a difference. For me, it continues to be a tiresome and futile waste of my energy to be a part of something that has been and continues to be toxic to my spirit and spirituality. Whether it be (unrealistically, IMO) blamed on one priest or one local parish, or even to faults and flaws within my own self (I do accept some responsibility), ultimately, at this time, makes no difference to me...it is what it is, an inhospitable environment...the sad thing, which is not being heard here, is that it is more prevalent than the church can admit...all you have to do is see the empty pews and churches being torn down to know that I'm not the only one staying home on Sunday.

This is profile for: Irshad Manji, the Muslim Canadian feminist who is speaking out for Islamic reform. She teaches at New York University in NYC:

As a scholar beyond NYU, Irshad is Senior Fellow with the European Foundation for Democracy. She has served as a Visiting Fellow at Yale University and Journalist-in-Residence at the University of Toronto, where she wrote The Trouble with Islam Today.

For her pioneering work to open up Muslim societies, Irshad receives death threats and distinctions.


* The World Economic Forum has selected her as a Young Global Leader;

* Ms. magazine has named her a Feminist for the 21st Century; and

* The Jakarta Post in Indonesia -- the world's largest Muslim country -- identifies Irshad as one of three Muslim women creating positive change in Islam today.

Born in 1968, Irshad is a refugee from Idi Amin's Uganda. In 1972, she and her family fled to Vancouver, where Irshad grew up attending public schools as well as the Islamic madressa. In 1990, she graduated with honors from the University of British Columbia, winning the Governor-General's medal for top academic achievement in the humanities.

Gee, I recognize this Vancouver parking lot where in 2007, she is arguing with this fundamentalist woman. Right outside the Canadian Broadcasting Corp Vancouver branch office. Our Canadian national tv and radio broadcasting network.

http://www.youtube.com/user/IrshadManjiTV#

http://www.irshadmanji.com/

Am I afraid that there are fundamentalist Muslim in Metro Vancouver? No. Too many others would be oppposing it. Heck of alot of fully assimilated folks in Metro Vancouver.

I have avoided discussing the initial question.The Mosque being built in NY.It is not in my country.

But the discussion about women in the Church.I can add my experience.for any new members of readers of the board I live in Scotland
Women ministers do exist in The Church of Scotland.The head of the Church is by nomination for the period of one year.And we have had a woman as "The Moderator of The General Assembly of The Church of Scotland" There is no bar on gender here.
At the annual Assembly matters and rules of the whole church in Scotland are discussed and reported widely.
as for failing church attendance.This is so here also.

In addition
I atttended a Mosque two weeks ago..as an open doors policy locally.I saw a place of education as well as worship.I was met by women who embraced me..Educated women and delightful children.Many nations of Muslim faith.Within that mosque there is a defined nationality .Those nations seemed to keep to themselves whilst engaging in the ritual.

I broke their fast sitting on the floor...watched them called to prayer..This took place upstairs in a purpose built building.This weekend as part of Open Doors Scotland the building is open.
many other Scottish people had been invited.we were a varied mix..people who knew and had befriended those who attended the Mosque had been invited.By ticket only.

The forthcoming Papal visit to UK is imminent.It can only be attended by tickets allocated to Catholic parishes.However I respect the honour of having this visit.My recollection of Pope John kissing the soil of Scotland when he arrived many years ago in Glasgow is a humbling memory.I shall watch coverage of this visit and ask friends who are going to Glasgow about this visit.
I hope I have been polite in my post...I have pondered about posting but did want to add my voice.

Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group. The text of the quotation is usually presented roughly as follows:

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

That has been addressed. Unfortunately, it is either misunderstood or perhaps not to listened to. Likewise, I have heard all sort of contrasting views before, Eagle. And the submission on half-filled Churches is something oft encountered. And, one can only present that half-filled pews are the result of apathy, cynicism and self-segregation, much of which is continuously justified by individual sorry experiences and/or conflicts or, by reference to others' misdeeds, in whatsoever form those misdeeds have been committed.

Addressing that against the topic of the original post and the discussions here on Islam. The zeal held by those who propose to erect a Mosque close to Ground Zero, despite the imprudential decision to erect it and opposition to it, is not really surprising because in contrast, despite criticisms hurled against Islam and the misdeeds of a minority, the Islamic community remains bold and their Mosques are well attended. Simply because Muslims do not skew to personal likings and singular embers.