The Supreme Governor of the Church of England is Queen Elizabeth. Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth II preceded her. As far as I know, the UK is a democratic country.

Albeit the Catholic Church does not ordain women (not because She does not want to but, because She simply cannot) they have never been, and still are not, subordinate to men.

http://www.wf-f.org/05-1-FeministMyth.html

thx for your opinion meredith.

Edelweiss: And if there are some mosques that are bigger than church steeples, is that a dangerous, offensive thing to see where you are?

Not sure if you visited the suburbs of Vancouver, but we have some huge mosques and 1-2 huge Buddhist temples. No one has become "scared" where we are. Actually some are a tourist attraction (just like big famous churches in Europe where tons of tourists visit and take photos).

Unfortunately I think many people DO associate Muslim and Hinduism with non-whites if they are unfamiliar with Islam, don't know the history of Turkey, Middle East, Indonesia and Malayasia, etc. (latter 2 countries have high number of Muslim believers).

I don't appreciate the comment "people like you who claim, etc." I'm over 10,000 kms. away from you and you have never met me, never walked in my shoes and never lived my life. I haven't told all my stories of incidents that are unpleasant here in this forum, incidents that occur still as an adult. (which is why I think Eagle who was taunted as "infidel" should just ignore it. Those boys were razzing her and trying to get a rise out of her. I get that similar crap, several times per year.)

I already gave same real-life examples of ex-pat Germans, their style in the workplace, whom I worked with for 3 years...daily. I also share a life with my partner has a deeper feel of German culture and nuances of its language, still has direct contact with relatives in Germany and visited Germany over 8 different trips in his lifetime after he immigrated to Canada in the early 1950's.

I wish the shadow of race would go away but it does reappear suddenly when never expects it. And it isn't overt violence. It's as simple as:

During the Olympics, I was standing with Jack, my partner at night waiting for fireworks to begin. 5 feet away a bunch of people in their 20's, not even children, were talking away. one guy was venting about his job, then about all the Chinese and too many Chinese in Richmond where I guess he works. No he wasn't Asian at all. I didn't say anything because part of me ..was tired and wondered if it would be worth it. But I did turn around to look at them long. Meanwhile Jack simply stood there, facing them and stared them long.

The others were uncomfortable,..because they knew how broadbrushing and wrong his comments were.

Richmond is a suburb of Vanouver. It has alot of Canadians of Asian descent.

As for the claim there is no discrimination in Germany from what you can see. Not from your perspective because you would only notice overt violence, shouting. As I said earlier, the real integration of people occurs in the power structure of politics and how people accepted further up the chain in decision-making in management of a company, non-profit organizations, government. It is about sharing power and decision-making not at the lower level of any organizational structure but in leadership roles, where the talent and skills of people are developed, recognized and used.



Maybe the tourist images...should include mosques and temples in Germany? They do include here for Richmond and Surrey in Canada. The tourist literature includes photos of 1 huge Richmond Buddhist temple. It was probably built there, not because of the local population but because there was vacant lot available and land zoning to allow it. People go there to pray. I haven't gotten around to walking around inside.

I'm not sure where the large churches are in Richmond, they exist. I don't visit Richmond often, once a month or less. I just don't notice them...because churches in North America are like wallpaper after awhile: we take them for granted in our landscape, we don't really notice them after awhile.

I can only imagine how threatening the perceived invasion of Islam, etc. that is coinciding with legal immigrants settling in areas ..especially if the Christian church attendance has been declining over the past few decades (it has been in Canada).

I'm not convinced about fundmentalism taking real hold in North America, given our laws to assist in preventing gender abuse, etc. Large numbers of 2nd and 3rd generations tend to move further and further away from their fundamentalist relatives / ancestors over decades. In fact the new "God" is consumerism.

Powerful forces of assimilation for the majority, not the small fundamental minority believers.

This is ridiculous. End of conversation.

She is one of many Muslims, doing difficult work. Educating within her community and outside the Muslim world.

http://www.irshadmanji.com/ A contemporary Muslim feminist who is gay. She is university-educated Canadian and I last heard she moved down to New York City to teach at one of the universities or colleges.

She wrote a fiery book a few years ago. She worked for one of the major national Canadian tv broadcasters...ages ago. (CBC) At the time, I did watch some of her tv stuff. Vibrant, erudite speaker. She would be very inspiring to young Muslim feminists andn older.

But on the surface, she is less "visible" because she does not wear a headscarf or burqua. So we would have no clue she was Muslim on the street. Therefore she looks less threatening.

Edit: I just noticed in her bio....she was raised as a child in Vancouver.

Sorry, that was not my experience growing up Catholic at all. We all knew that the priests, monsignors, and bishops were in charge of everything. Women may have had a helping/enforcing role but that was it. But I'll leave it at that; I'm just stating my experience. I suspect other churches operate much the same.

Ellemm, I do not understand what you mean by "that was not my experience growing up Catholic at all." I would be most surprised if you were referring to the link I provided. Otherwise, I would presume that you are referring to individual Parochial administration, which is not representative of the institution as a whole. My grandmother and Mom were involved in liturgical preparations after Vatican II in NYC. Cloistered religious communities for women also allowed involvement of women within liturgical preparations pre-Vatican II. But, the praxi remains the same pre and post. Women cannot be ordained.

All the same, as you've said your experience is different from mine and I accept that.

I would hazard a guess that this is true for just about ever woman in this forum. Nobody has the monopoly on discrimination and hurtful encounters. Hostility, prejudice and meanness are flung for many different reasons,...you encountered it and you might determine that it‘s racism; I've encountered it throughout my life, been terribly scarred by it and have never really had any clear idea of the “why” of it. I’ve always been on the outside looking in everywhere I’ve been. Perhaps it’s my mental illness? I don’t know. All I know is that it hurts. And please don’t tell me that one person’s hurt is any more valid than another simply because the hostility or prejudice stems from one aspect of hatred than another…hatred is hatred, no matter what the reason for it. It all diminishes.



I can and do ignore the taunting. These aren’t little boys, they’re 18-20 year olds. What I can’t ignore is the inflammatory intent behind the taunt…and it wouldn’t matter who was flinging hatred at me, it would and does still make me wary because I’ve seen what hatred is capable of, and I simply don’t want to be targeted by anyone anywhere for any reason.

No one likes being hassled. The young men are still razzing you.
I long ago, figured these incidents will occur here and there for the rest of my life.

I am highly amused when bloggers on the internet deliberately love to write inflammatory stuff just to get more people reading their sights. They write in a language to attract anger, to provoke, etc.

I'm the opposite...probably because I knew since I was kid, that my simple visible existence in the sightlight of some people, angers/provokes some people. And I haven't even opened my mouth or done anything towards them.

This is why I don't wear fashion to draw much attention to myself, I don't need dreadlock/super unusual hair fashion, multiple tattoos to pronounce a message/identity...just being myself...draws sufficient attention and at times anger to some people on the street.

If nothing else, "curiosity". As it did in Germany, when a bunch of young children in small Black Forest German town just stared at me as we stopped to look at maps. They didn't care to look at Jack. Jack was 3 ft. away. But they are only children, curious about anything "different".

It is scary to defend oneself solo when certain situations arise. 2 yrs. ago I was riding to home a local bus out in the suburbs. The bus driver was East Indian with a turban. 3 Caucasian people boarded bus ..and they refused to pay the fare..one of them made a derogatory remark to the driver. Then they sat at front of bus across the aisle where I was sitting. I did comment that the bus driver had the right to ask that they pay fare. Of course, that set off a guy who threatened me he would get at me... So the dumb conversation went on amongst them about too many Chinks, Pakis... I kept my mouth shut and figured it just wasn't worth it. We still had another half an hr. to reach the bus station and my safety was priority.

Now, I was wearing a sleek cycling jacket, lycra shorts, had my bike helmet, panniers, etc. (I was going to pick up my bike at another transit station to ride homeward since commute was so long.) I looked very Canadian / western / contemporary to them...which I am in spirit also 100%. Had I looked like a meek, low-income fresh-off-the-boat immigrant, I just wonder what more could they have done/said to me.

Or if I was weak, old and frail Asian woman. They probably would have thought I was too dumb to understand English.

Maybe they might have shocked to know I was old enough to be their mother.

Lola, again I don't have stats or links, all I have is my own experience as a woman in the Catholic Church. What frustrated me more than anything is that when one bishop/priest was in charge, I was considered to be valuable, capable and welcome to participate at just about every level of the liturgy if I chose to. Then when a new priest stepped in, I wasn't, SIMPLY and only because I was a woman. Wonderfully capable and profoundly spiritual women who had been very active and vital in the church were suddenly not even allowed on the altar. Then when another new priest stepped in, new boundaries and new attitudes...eventually, being considered valid and purposeful within the church became an exercise in futility, a constant hitting of one's head against immovable brick walls. I had to leave...as my quote says, when you don't like a thing, change it. If you can't change it, change the way you think about it. I tried, couldn't, changed my thinking about it and got out.

Perhaps that's not the intent of the heirarchy, but that's the reality of many women in the church. I'm not the only one, nor will I be the last, to leave. Currently I can't bring myself to go to any church right now, because I see such widespread mistreatment of women in the name of God, and I can't buy into it or allow myself to be wounded by it anymore.