If you thought someone was giving some substance to an elderly person, something beyond their prescribed meds, but couldn't prove it:
1. What would you do?
2. Would you hire an independent nurse to take a blood sample for testing, if you found the rights?
3. Do you think legal, or some other, representation would be in order?
4. Do you know of steps that would need to be taken, for instance, if a blood test proved foul play, could/would you have police agents go to the residence with you?
5. Anyone know what steps, if any, should be taken?

This probably sounds serious... IT IS!
If anyone can give me information, I sure would appreciate it.
I'd also appreciate you asking any and all people you know who might have ideas on how to approach this concern, both delicately and thoroughly....
Time is important!

gims

I don't know that you need to get the police involved too soon, because that creates its own problems. But an independent medical person might be a good idea and perhaps a blood test. Call it a "second opinion" which is absolutely acceptable. You might want to hire a nurse or companion you can trust to go and stay with the elderly person. It may not be foul play but may be some simple over the counter med, or the combination of meds. My opinion now is that most of our elderly are being over medicated and we're calling it "dementia" but really it's our f***ed up meical system (pardon my language).

we've been going through something similar with my 91 year old mom, except that a doctor was prescribing meds she didn't need which created a dementia that caused her to be hospitalized 3 times. It all started last summer after my dad died -- mom has macular and I'm pretty sure dad had been watching out for her.

We've detoxed her now (got her off everything, and waited a few weeks) and she's back to her old self (though has short term memory probs). We've hired a nurse to stay with her during the day. At first mom resisted the idea, but now she can't live without her new companion.

My sister spent a lot of time researching drug side effects (mostly on the internet) and found that even over the counter drugs can cause big problems in the elderly. Like Excedrin and Benedryl. My sister found prescriptions for things like Ambien in mom's bathroom, and replaced the drugs with vitamins, because mom is a compliant patient.

She lives in a retirement home that has its own medical staff (doctor and nurses) and we're very concerned about their competence. It seems that their motto is to over-medicate. Whether they're well-meaning or not is up for interpretation.

When mom was released from the hospital in January, some friends became involved, and he's a doctor, so he asked for and received all the release records, and then intervened on our behalf and spoke to the doctor at the retirement community. I believe he posed as our cousin, but I don't think that was necessary. What we found was that the stupid hospital upon her release had prescribed every single medication she'd ever been prescribed going back some years!

We're still trying to impress upon mom not to take anything! yesterday she said to me, "When a doctor prescribes something, I take it." Now we're not sure if the problem is just that the doctor is prescribing it, or if the nurse is one of those angel of mercy types that wants to put her out of her misery. We've told the social worker our concerns. In fact, I called her yesterday. When mom was last in the hospital, she was acting so weird that they gave her Haldol. She was released a couple days later to the retirement community where they gave her a cognition test (which she failed utterably). Duh! She didn't know where she was, and barely even knew _who_ she was. She wasn't wearing her hearing aids and she has macular. So yesterday I called the social worker to say hey, make sure the test is fair this time, okay? Well, since mom is now detoxed, she did fine.

There's a community eating area where my sister took my mom for lunch yesterday. The residents there applauded our family for being the most supportive!

Wow, DJ. Your family is very lucky to have a friend who happens to be a doctor also to request for information and interpret. Pretty scary about the degree of effort for family to advocate and fight on behalf for a family member in a nursing home. I guess that facility is the only one with a slot for your mother?

Keep us posted, gims. I have not much to add..there does need to be evidence collected and how patient responds which can best on the nature of the drugs, only interpreted by health care professional..if you drag in a lawyer, then police into the picture later only.

What I would do? I would be first on the phone to consult my sister who is a doctor and my other sister who is a hospital pharmacist (she does know alot about drug-drug interactions). I would keep diary notes.

gims, I think you need to be careful. Is this person a relative? If you don't have legal standing, I'm not sure you can get tests done for someone else without running some legal risks yourself.

If this person isn't a relative, you might investigate whether it's appropriate to talk to her doctor or someone who might be in charge of patient care in a facility about what you see re 'side effects,' etc.

I'll tell you why I'm urging you to be careful. You're trying to help someone, and good for you. But my husband and I are legal guardians of his mother (as a result, among other things, of interference from some of his relatives). I was once accused by a relative of withholding information that MIL had had a stroke (not true; she was recovering from major surgery). We see ourselves as the good guys and have made it abundantly clear that we will deal with problems and others are *not* to get information because we can't trust them. So that's sort-of the opposite of your case.

You can go talk to a doctor, though, without violating patient rights and confidentiality by saying what you see and asking for advice as a concerned person, as far as I know. I don't really see what you could do by getting the police involved at this point. If there is no proof, you'll likely come off as not-credible. I wish you luck; you are good to be concerned for another.

Ellemm, that seems like wise counsel and another perspective.

Orchid, my parents moved to a very posh retirement community, as distinct from a nursing home. They paid something like $350,000 for a condo, and then pay fees of about 4-5K per month, that includes all maintenance and health care. It has a nursing wing and an Alzheimer's wing if you get sick. There's a dining area with a grand piano and someone playing music while they eat dinner around an indoor fountain. There are frequent cultural trips into the city, and lectures etc., a swimming pool, exercise gym. All in all it's like a resort and being allowed in is much coveted in that area (you have to have interviews and have insiders vouch for you, as in a country club).

And _still_ we have these problems. My brothers believe that this is their way of moving folks along, in order to be able to sell the condo again. I tend to see it more as a philosophy that says believes that all old people become feeble and forgetful and need to be isolated.

THANK YOU ALL! From the thoughts you have provided, I know what I'm going to do.
I won't go into the particulars here, because it's too sensitive to publicize...but, I'll share by way of PM if anyone has more recommendations.

THANK YOU SO MUCH... it had me so upset last night/this morning, I couldn't sleep OR think.

Maybe my lack of sleep is what's making me feel so out of sorts... but, I've come back to ask you all to pray with all your might, because I'm on my way (with an aunt I've recruited) to take some kind of action. It's my mom and I have to do something.
So, PLease, I beg you Please, pray for me and for her. PLEASE....

with luv...
gims

Hope the very best for your mother, gims. Plot your way through and document every step/event.

DJ- Interesting. Last year I knew another woman at work who's Mom also is in a lovely retirement community like your mother's. And she too was marshalling efforts with her siblings to ensure her mother's health care was properly looked after. They also seemed to slide. I did hear how her mom was dehydrated 'cause no one thought to get some liquids for her for several hrs.

Orchid, my parents moved to a very posh retirement community, as distinct from a nursing home. They paid something like $350,000 for a condo, and then pay fees of about 4-5K per month, that includes all maintenance and health care. It has a nursing wing and an Alzheimer's wing if you get sick. There's a dining area with a grand piano and someone playing music while they eat dinner around an indoor fountain. There are frequent cultural trips into the city, and lectures etc., a swimming pool, exercise gym. All in all it's like a resort and being allowed in is much coveted in that area (you have to have interviews and have insiders vouch for you, as in a country club).

And _still_ we have these problems. My brothers believe that this is their way of moving folks along, in order to be able to sell the condo again.

I'm sending this to a freind who has an eldercare business. I'm sure she can help.

gims, I haven't posted, but have been praying for you. I know that you are doing the right thing, for yourself and your mom.