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#179452 - 04/07/09 12:17 AM
Re: Atheists call for 'debaptism'
[Re: Lola]
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Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 3404
Loc: USA
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If the rite of initiation to any faith community is a means established by God to a bond of unity with Him, then, wouldn't the child have an unquestionable right not to be prevented from receiving that Divine gift? How is it established by God? Are we speaking of something Biblical, or doctrinal? If they held such a strong conviction that there is no God, then they ought to have taken a more definitive position. So, the ads came off as "taunting" rather than a respect for those who do believe that God exists. Most definitely. It's almost as if they are using it as a 'tool,' vs. trying to bring their 'truth' to those who believe. Does a possibility exists where atheists and non-atheists can discuss common ethics? Is it possible to meet at a point where one discusses on a purely rationale point of view and the other on faith? Probably not, it's sad to say... but, influencing them with 'hope' would probably soften anyone, no matter what choice of belief. New question: In faiths that baptize babies, is a child expected to profess a 'personal' acceptance later, after he/she is much older, followed by a baptism by 'choice?' When is the child/young adult/adult responsible for a personal profession? Or, does the baptism as a baby 'hold for life,' regardless of what they may do in life? Surely there is a point where they are expected to break from the cleanse and move into a personal responsibility phase.
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#179463 - 04/07/09 12:53 AM
Re: Atheists call for 'debaptism'
[Re: dancer9]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
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If I were surrounded by believers and I had been baptised in their religon as a child, I might want to make a public statement to them that I was out of it forever. It's a creative way of quitting a religion, I must admit. True, Dancer. As much as I don't accept that anyone can be "de-baptised", I understand perfectly well why those who repudiate their faith go so far as to announce their repudiation. Baptisms are always a cause of celebration. A social and public affair. I think, those who seek to separate from the community are also making the same statement. For the most part, I feel sadness than anger, or even insult, because a change of heart is always brought about by personal struggles in life.
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#179472 - 04/07/09 01:58 AM
Re: Atheists call for 'debaptism'
[Re: Lola]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
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How is it established by God? Are we speaking of something Biblical, or doctrinal? In Christian and Apostolic Churches, it was established through Jesus, Gims. Baptism is a Sacrament instituted by Jesus by which with the ablution of water and the invocation of the Holy Trinity, one is spiritually regenerated. Is it Biblical? Yes. Briefly, on its institution,matter and form, there is John 3:5 together with Mark 16 where it is explicit in that Jesus himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism. On infant baptism, there is Matthew 19:14 and its application to children is confirmed in Acts 16:15, Act 16 and 1 Cor 1:16
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#179474 - 04/07/09 02:15 AM
Re: Atheists call for 'debaptism'
[Re: Lola]
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Member
Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 3404
Loc: USA
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Oh, I'm aware of how it was established for the faithful... I was zeroing in on the baptism of infants. I guess I should have asked, How/when did God give the directive to baptize babies/children? As it pertains to baptizing children, I'm assuming we are to read that 'household' covers them in the scriptures provided. It's not explicit as to whether the the households were baptized by choice, nor if it was 'required' of them through familial associations. Is there a piece of doctrine that supports the practice that you know of? In all of my Bible reading/studying, or other learning, I've never come across scriptural support (not that I've been looking for it).
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#179476 - 04/07/09 02:34 AM
Re: Atheists call for 'debaptism'
[Re: Lola]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
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In faiths that baptize babies, is a child expected to profess a 'personal' acceptance later, after he/she is much older, followed by a baptism by 'choice?' When is the child/young adult/adult responsible for a personal profession? Or, does the baptism as a baby 'hold for life,' regardless of what they may do in life? Surely there is a point where they are expected to break from the cleanse and move into a personal responsibility phase. One baptism is enough, Gims. However, the "choice" is encountered through the Rite of Confirmation where an individual who went through infant baptism can elect later, if he so chooses, for a perfection of the Rite of Initiation into the Catholic Church, or not. From childhood until the age of reason, the education of the child is the responsibility of the parent and Godparents with regards to foundation and Christian formation. The Sacrament of Confirmation imprints a character where the baptised person is bound more intimately with the Church and is elected by personal faith. As it is conferred at the age of discretion, the personal responsibility is assumed at that time. So, one who has been through baptism as an infant, Confirmation is the sole decision of the Confirmandi.
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#179479 - 04/07/09 02:59 AM
Re: Atheists call for 'debaptism'
[Re: gims]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
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Oh, I'm aware of how it was established for the faithful... I was zeroing in on the baptism of infants. I guess I should have asked, How/when did God give the directive to baptize babies/children? As it pertains to baptizing children, I'm assuming we are to read that 'household' covers them in the scriptures provided. It's not explicit as to whether the the households were baptized by choice, nor if it was 'required' of them through familial associations. Is there a piece of doctrine that supports the practice that you know of? In all of my Bible reading/studying, or other learning, I've never come across scriptural support (not that I've been looking for it). The baptism of babies/children is a tradition coming from the Apostles. Where do they find the justification for the tradition? One would be through Matthew 19:14 because the implication in contrast would effectively mean a Church in which little children are forbidden to enter as full members, would no longer be the Kingdom of Him who said: "Let the children come to me...". Why Apostolic tradition and not by Jesus? I think if we view it from Biblical and historical account, in Jesus' time, there were no cradle Christians and the Apostolic Christian Church did not come to fruition until after Resurrection.
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#179515 - 04/07/09 12:46 PM
Re: Atheists call for 'debaptism'
[Re: Lola]
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Member
Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 3404
Loc: USA
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Thank you so much, Lola. I love reading what you share. I need to read up on Apostolic Christians, something I know near nothing about.
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#179531 - 04/07/09 01:35 PM
Re: Atheists call for 'debaptism'
[Re: gims]
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Member
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
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Glad to share, Gims. Have you ever wondered what happened to the Apostles after Jesus left them? I did. The most fascinating part of the Bible for me is the Acts because that's where one can find Apostolic traditions. It is such a fascinating part of the Bible to read because apart from Scriptural theology, it brings to life people, places, events on how the Christian Church as a living, faithful community was established etc. It also gives an insight of the theological "quarrel" between Peter and Paul! For some reason, it pacifies my soul somewhat, because even Peter, who was so close to Jesus, could get it wrong by being stubborn and be corrected by Paul. And, to think that Paul joined the "gang" much later.
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