seek, you asked what corporations promoted products based on glamorizing gangs: Nike and Sprite, to name the two biggest ones. Sprite especially. You can see it in their commercials and ads, going back to the late 80s, early 90s.

As Chatty said: "The mess our country is in today was and is being perpetrated by wealthy white men, who grew up very privileged, Ivy league colleges and the whole ball of wax. All from good families, mom and pop! The only difference between them and home invaders and car jackers and small time burglars is that they commit a better class of crimes, one that benefits them much more than the other type does its perpetrators...And hurts far more of us in the process."

The customer base for most of the violent rap and hip-hop songs are white middle class teenage boys. So many white kids just graduating college in recent years were enamored of Will Smith in "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" and wanted to be like him. Violent rap wasn't part of that show, but it did build on that client base. These clients don't live in the culture that supposedly spawns the music, but some of those involved in creating the music also don't live in urban slums (can I use that word any more?) Many middle class black families don't want their kids to glamorize the gang culture.

Lots of people have gotten rich selling this music and its lifestyle.

I don't think the music makes anyone go out and murder cops. But it does contribute to a culture that's more tolerant of violence. What can shock us any more?

There is also rap music with pro-social messages. It's not all violent.

So it's not all blacks who listen, but mostly whites, and it's not all violent music.

As Mustang says "hurt people, hurt people." Some kids do grow up with teenage drug addicted mothers who were impregnated by fathers that aren't involved in their lives. If they're lucky, maybe their grandmas will raise them. Maybe these kids are among those who are drawn to gangs. In the Midwest, some of the worst gangs are Asian (Cambodian, for example, in Wisconsin). I went to a talk last year at a local middle school about how gangs have moved into white suburbia -- the Crips and Bloods are now in suburban Baltimmore -- and white kids are sometimes getting in over their heads by using gang sign language. Graffiti is turning up everywhere around here, and the cops know the different gangs' signs.

If the US wanted to stop drug trafficking in this country, we have the military power to do it. So why don't we? that's the big question. Who benefits? apparently it's not a safe question to research. Journalist Gary Webb was murdered last year as he got deeper and deeper into his investigation (I heard him speak in Chicago about 10 years ago). It goes back to what Chatty said. The small time criminals in the slums aren't the ones benefiting the most from drug trafficking.

Some of it is the institutional (unconscious) racism at work.

I, too, see plenty of motivated, searching, responsible, smart young people who are interested in helping the world. Some of them even like hip-hop music.

I'm not saying that society is responsible for individuals' choices to act violently. But I do think we all need to be aware of the role played by allowing the advertising and selling of whatever to whomever (including very young children). The primary value that's broadcast by the US as a nation to its citizens and the world is "make money, however you can, wherever you can." That's why I say that gang behavior reflects the dominant culture in some ways.

I don't listen to rap. Never have. Never will. But I believe the
fact that this country voted for a semi-black man, says a great
deal about how far America has come on the race issue. And that's
good. Right?

Well said, Chatty. As most here know, my family is white, black, Hispanic, etc. Of all of us, the Caucasions have mostly suffered here in the Northeast because of their color as we grew up in a mostly black projects. My dear brother (Caucasion) has been ridiculed for decades because he adopted a black son. How sad is THAT!

Now as we are older adults, we hear the same tired rhetoric about racism from mostly those seeking political office, or people like Al Sharpton, who is regularly looking for instant media oppotunities to be the national spokesperson for all blacks, whom he claims to represent.

There will always be isolated cases of illiterate people who think they are better because of their money, their color, their car, their politics, their religion, etc. The only thing we can do is educate them as best we can, and then move on.

Even Rodney King, a victim of racial discrimination who asked the country, "Can we all just get along?," is still himself learning how to treat people. His criminal record is sad, and includes horrendous acts of abuse against himself and others, even savagely beating his own wife while intoxicated. The man is still learning to put his own words into practice.

As I always say, God didn't make no perfect people. Lesson for today: Look for the good in each other, learn it, and pass it on!

PS: I adore Dr. Maya Angelou! She is so REAL and majorly awesome!

dj: i too saw gary webb speak. very sad about his death. he was a crusader. very brave to stand up against the c.i.a., etc.

i am aware of most of what you described. my focus is different from yours in that i don't think defending it (the negative rap images) is all that helpful. again, if the mothers and grandmas are raising so many of the black youth, then why are females disparaged so strongly in the music? curious about that. and why not more political rapping against "the man" or whatever? why the glorification of prisons of all things? that is really strange to me. i am sure there are reasons, i just don't know what they are and have not heard any discourse on these things. and why do so many middle class white teen boys dig rap so much and revere prison culture? what are the reasons? is it to compete for females? i am just guessing, i have no idea.

again, i personally am not talking about individuals, but about group dynamics. i believe most reasonable people can see that we are all human beings . . . but gangs and groups of people are perceived differently.

dj again: when you say gangs have infiltrated into white culture, why do you think gangs are appealing to anyone, and specifically why are white youth at risk for being recruitted? what are the reasons gangs are seen as good, when any reasonable person knows that gangs are bad and can lead to only bad . . . i.e., death or prison. why would anyone flirt with that? what is the twisted thinking that takes place and why? i don't expect anyone to have exact answers, but what are your theories? what do you think might be some reasons for the attraction to something that is a dead end. literally.

the reverse of the "american dream" metaphor, for sure.

I truly believe that gangs attract misguided misfits whatever color they are, because these kids are looking for a place they can belong, a place with no rules, no structure and where nothing is off limits. A place where misbehavior no matter how serious is rewarded, not looked down upon.

Then there are those poor kids who happen to live in the neighborhoods these gangs infiltrate and these kids are told either join or else. These youths I feel sorry for because their circumstances sometime dictates their fate.

Most middle class white kids have NO clue what it means to belong to a gang. They see these young gangsters glorified in the movies and videos and want to be just like them, COOL/RADICAL, its sad but true.

This discussion, as so many others can go on forever, none of us has the answers. Armegedon is the only real way to purge society of ALL the filth and wrong doers, the only thing sad about that is we will all cease to exist in human form as well...

seek --
How cool that you saw Gary Webb! Poor man. Yeah, he said "when you report about the CIA, they will ruin your life." They certainly ruined his.

I wasn't defending negative rap images, so I don't think we differ in that. To me, it's not a good thing that people have gotten rich by exploiting the young people who buy these negative images. I said that corporations like Nike and Sprite glamorize the negative images: I'm not a big fan of corporations.

Where does mysogyny come from? Having met a great number of mysogynists in my day, I can only theorize that some men hate women, especially strong oens, because such men are weak and feel threatened. It seems to me there's more objectifying (is that a word?) of women today than back in the 1970s -- it's much more severe. [censored] is much more violent -- no, I don't look at [censored], but judging by mainstream R-rated movies, music videos, TV shows, and magazine covers, I can imagine that it is. The hyper-sexualizing of women indicates disrespect if not actual loathing, but also an attempt to control them. Those without power try to control whom they perceive as weaker, thus women and boys are easy targets.

At the talk I went to about gangs moving into white suburbs, the cops were saying that kids in good families who felt alone and isolated, maybe because the parents were busy working, turned to the gangs for a sense of belonging. Chatty, I don't agree that gangs are without structure -- they have strict rules and you have to do certain things to be accepted ("loved").

Yeah, an inverse American dream. A doppelganger family.

I also think that teens, as they try to figure out how they fit into the world, often tend to feel alienated and at odds with what they perceive to be the values of mainstream culture. Because of the extreme dominance of oru culture by corporations, there's a phenomenon going on today, where any attempt at rebellion by teens -- in fashion, music, art, behavior -- gets immediately incorporated by some company wanting to cash in and sell this dangerous, rebellious image to other teens, thus pushing kids to look harder for ways to express their alienation from mainstream culture. You can find so many examples of that. Rap music is one. Spiked hair, tatoos, multiple piercings, Goth clothing. Remember when it was just plain blue jeans? Then ripped jeans? And now ripped jeans sell for beaucoups bucks?

What's a rebellious teen to do when doorbell ditch and liquid dish soap in the public fountain, or dogdo in the burning paper sack are in every Adam Sandler-type movie. I guess joining a gang makes a statement.

i have a different take on what it takes to change things. i don't believe any human beings are "filth," just misguided and unaware. they obviously believe that they are seeking happiness . . . for some reason they don't understand the route will not get them there.

as the dali lama said (paraphrasing) "everyone just wants to be happy."

if the rebellion of white teens is because white culture is so sick . . . i can understand that. if the kids of any color could articulate what their problems and concerns are and get that message out into the mainstream, that would be effective. but rebelling is not so effective.

if they wrote songs about the deadness of suburbia, the lonliness of coming home to an empty house or parents who are drunk or popping pills or busy shopping . . . then those messages could change the culture.

but rapping about how cool prison is is just dumb, unless the society you live in is so unappealing that prison looks good. again, not too bright because most of us have no idea what struggles are (i.e., third world style).

out of all of the youths out there there has to be one talented genious that could rap about real social problems and suggest real social change.

i do not know what is wrong with the kids in college - why they are so complacent and mediorcre - where are the strong voices and the strong opinions? where are the protests? seriously. if i had more energy . . . !!!

Wow, there is some racism here.
Chatty comes from a background that is closest to mine. She and I CAN be colorblind, yes we can.

Seek, some of us are happy to meet other people from other cultures and if like me, they PREFER those from other cultures.

I cannot speak for blacks but I play music with them, I was married to a mixed race man and I have many friends who are black, my shrink said to me when I was last in treatment that I feel safer with blacks than whites. I've been on stage, television or video since I was 5 and I sing with mixed race bands, like when I was young and sang with WAR. SO,... I can speak to a few things.

Rap says some stupid things, so does folk, "I gotta brand new pair of roller skates,"
so does rock, "and all the colored girls go doop de doop,"...
and Lord, so does country.

More blacks are in prison than whites because of racial profiling, jailing addicts instead of forcing treatment, non equal education for blacks. (There was a study done that said that a black child will get a hugely less amount of attention from kindergarden on in any area.) NO ONE WANTS TO HIRE BLACK PEOPLE. We need to understand this! For God's sake, let's be honest!

Blacks are almost BORN with low self esteem, or it is instilled in them from the moment they are born.

Try this on for size:
My sons are white, for the most part their Italian blood has been over powered by the Norweigian, (spelling,) of their father. BUT: When I put my youngest son in school, they told me that "Boys born in June usually do the worst, you might want to wait a year."
My son is after his doctorate next year at the age of 21 and can be googled as a scholar.

You see what pre-conceived notions there are in our public schools? My son had to get that teachers attention and PROVE himself and he had to do this over and over again to maintain his entire "A" career.

Imagine if he was black?

I want to say again: Some people prefer cultures that are not their own. They are not predujice and are genuinely interested in the lives of those that are of different cultures. I am one. I like a movie set in another country, a book about people from another culture or country like I'm reading now, and that's just a fact. I find "white suburbia," boring as he**! For some reason, so do my children.

Between my husband and myself, along with my sons, we have been to almost every country you CAN go to. My family has probably been to the rest.

Rap music calling women "ho's," and bitches.:" Many black women claim the word "bitch," as a compliment, just as gays have reclaimed the word "queer," to be a mightly fine word. So far as "ho's," the women who have been treated like that in the neighborhoods these guys come from ARE called that and they are trying to RAP BACK as Chatty says. They are working things out in their music as Emiem (lol, spelling, WHAT is that spelling?) did. He wrote AWFUL lyrics about his mother and now they are close and have mended their fences. He has mended his music as well and even acts pretty well! The blacks have a life they describe and their music evolves as all music does.

Remember, Elvis was supposed to be obscene. Let's let rap music, which is cleaner than it has ever been, evolve. You'd be surprised by rap these days, it has gotten very positive from those who used to rap evil things!
`
Lastly: Do you know who is buying all that rap music? Not the ten percent black population here in the US but the WHITE kids!
Youbetcha!! Look over next time you hear that rap blaring and it can be a group of white kids 8 times out of 10!

So~ Maybe someone else can tell me why they like it so much?

For reference on my, my site talks about my career, and my childrens photos are in the children forum...

Hope that gives some info. I just write what I have experienced.
I live in a gated community with many races, my closest neighbor is a black doctor.


Dancer

not sure who you are calling racist, but it would be interesting to know what you see as racist. i am open to hearing it if it is me.

also, i think a main issue i notice is people talking about OTHER PE0PLE being racist, but not owning their own racism. i am not referring to any one person here, just noticing that people can take a "holier than thou" stance and claim to be super educated and super un-racist as a result, or that they have had "x" experiences and as a result are not racist - all of the racism is OUT THERE . . . not being owned at all . . . because truthfully who wants to think of themselves that way. it is not flattering. but until people own their own racism i don't think there is much hope for change.

i know i am racist. i have racist thoughts. i try not to act on them (who knows what i might do, unconsciously). i want to unlearn my racism and i do work on it.

i have written candidly to expose my real feelings, not to hide them, in an effort to try to work through some stuff.

i think someone must have deleted something because there are references here to some stuff that i cannot find. does anyone want to shed light on what was deleted (just in general). i ask because i think it is important to know what has been said. names are not important, but i think the conversation is. my take, anyway. feel free to ignore my requests.

dj: can you say, specifically, how nike and sprite used gangster imagry in their adverstising? i am not familiar with the ads you note and am curious.

thanks