wow, dancer, thank you for sharing all of that. i didn't know a person could be white and not think of themselves as white. i am blonde (northern italian too) and i do recall that my darker haired friends did not feel pretty because of their darker hair.

i have been in boring meetings or in churches where i have taken an inventory of the hair color and it is almost always just brown or light brown. i guess that says a lot about the schools and churches i went to.

so you identify as "not-white," even though you are technically caucasion, is that correct? it sounds like your mother shared your viewpoint or perhaps introduced you to it in the first place? is that right? i am trying to understand because i have never heard of a person who is "white" not identifying as "white."

thank you for sharing the bit about northern italians and space. that is where my dad must have gotten it. since i had no italian traditions, i was expecting the sicilian thing in terms of closeness and cooking. i was always jealous of my sicilian friends. my dad did tell me that he did not even think of sicilians as "real italians," so there you have another distinction, which i am sure you are aware of given your upbringing.

since your family had so much money and it was old money, are you saying the stereotype is true that "old money" is more refined and less gouche (sorry, i can't remember how to spell that!)? i do now recall that the old money families i knew drove old cars (good cars, but old ones) and wore old clothes (again, good, but old) and were not flashy or wasteful like the new money.


it was easy to study because the town i lived in went under a great transformation. first it was just a mix of every strata, then the new money came in big time and that is mostly what it is today, with some of the old money people in the background, but they are almost invisible. you don't see them as much - don't know if they moved or died off or what.

can you say more about how you were treated that caused your grandfather to speak up on your behalf? curious about that.

Dancer thank you for your kind words and that very special email this morning, something nice to wake up to.

You are soooo right that we do have a totally different idea of racism, because in show business, a business we were both in, there is little or no racism. Oh maybe back in the 40's even the early 50's some stupid club owners saw color but that soon changed and has been non existant since those days.

But in fairness to all involved in tnis discussion, one has to live in the entertainment industry to understand it and what it represents to men and women of every race/appearence. Talent is all that matters in that world. The entertainment industry, bless them all, are truly COLOR BLIND!

I am Sicilian and Syrian, all very dark hair, and skin relatives BUT my father was a blonde blue eyed Lithuanian. I got his coloring. My sibblings have brown hair and eyes except for my sister and me, both fair. I can't remember us being discriminated against however because of that.

I do know mom wasn't in as good with her father because they hated for anyone to marry a non Italian. My poor grandpa, none but my youngest Aunt married an Italian man and he thought he was the Godfather...

good to see ya back seek

and you chattie feeling more centered, thaks for the big share dsancer and id joine in but its xmass eve iv stuff to do and frends just arriving, you keep chatting i keep reading.

Merry Christmas, Celtic Flame, I always like your posts!

Dancer

celtic flame you have great energy. fun.

Dancer, they may as well be wearing a neon sign on their forehead! People with "pretend" new money tend to be pretend everything. People whose entire value system and conversation centers around material goods and pursuits. "Do you like my new Prada?" "I made $$$$$$ doing ..." "I'm going to buy..." blahblahblah. They're self-centered, material-obsessed bores.

With all this financial fizzling lately, the most affected industry in OC was housing. Y'all wanna know the second??? ELECTIVE PLASTIC SURGERY! HAHAHA!! at least, that's what a recent newspaper article claims. People having to choose between the lease on their Mercedes, or their 39th boob job. What is this world coming to??? OMG, I'm laughing too hard at this one.

So, what Meredith really is saying, I think, is that class is not just about money in the US. We still do notice when people are all about what they have, and that's just not considered "upper" class.

Celtic, class in the US is more fluid than in Europe, even now. It's also about values and about the kinds of work one does (I think in England, there are those aristocrats who have no money, but have "breeding." We don't have that exactly, but there exists something other than money to designate class). For example, I really don't think a plumber or a pro football player is considered as the same class as a doctor or lawyer, even if he or she earns more money. At the same time, someone whose parent is a doctor might decide to become a plumber, though that's not as common as the inverse, in a country where "the American dream" prevails.

The discussion about Italy fascinates me. When I first lived there, I lived in northern Italy, but I married a southern Italian who had been living in and studying in the north since high school. In Italy, the northerners consider themselves of a higher class than the southerners, and direct a good deal of prejudice and discrimination toward the southerners. More of the power elite comes from the north -- that's really the determinant of "upper class" anyway -- the values of who is in power. Some of this is historical. Previously, Naples and Rome were the seat of power. Neopolitans consider themselves the center of the universe -- a big education for American me. Also, an education in how access to power determines class.

Garibaldi was a northerner (Milanese, I think?). In the 19th century when Garibaldi was trying to unite the provinces into the nation of Italy, he wanted to create a strong border. Most of the money and industry were in the south, but he moved them north to Torino, Milan, Padua, etc. to reinforce the borders. Goes to show how important understanding history is, and how it relates to power. Recent generations in the north now look upon the southerners as lazy and slow and stupid and their cuisine as less refined (usually referring to the informal food like pizza and tomato sauce). Puh-leeze -- the speciality of one northern town I lived in involved donkey meat.

Say folks. Anybody who wants to disagree with, that's fine.
Let's agree to disagree. We've all had different experiences
and we all react out of those situations. I personally think it's
more important for a person to be beautiful on the inside as opposed to the outside. But that's just me. Ever hear Judge Judy,
"Beauty fades." Well, beauty fades. But what's on the inside
directs a person's actions, how they treat others, etc.

If you get right down to it, this class distinction thing is a lot
of hooey. Material things mean nothing. Skin color means nothing.
The only thing that means anything, is where the spirit will
spend eternity. All else withers away! It has about as much
substance as cotton candy!

DJ, you are so right. My family deplores "Southerners!" Names are called, it's outrageous. My family forbid marrying a Southern Italian or the punishment was banishment from the family.
It's really strange but when you grow up with it, it seems like it's stupid (when you are raised in the US and sent to Italy to "remember who you are," as I was.)
You, being an American, marrying into my family, would have been treated as an outsider, since you have no Italian blood. They are very proud and unforgiving when it comes to the "family name." When I was first married, I was "not really married," to them because I was not married in a church. I did get an annulment as well, because of my family.
I am wondering how you took to being treated as a "southerner," when you were in Italy and it looked so stupid to you! It is a bigoted system, you BET!
My family is in this country because my great grandfather was the mayor of Venice and my grandfather was born out of wedlock. He was sent out of Italy to be raised while his parents got married and had a whole family without him. He was paid off well and was raised by relatives but he was sent North and hidden. My family would not have left Italy if my Grandfather had not been born too early! Italians are also creatures of superstition, have you noticed?
Some funny ones:
Red hair on a woman is a bad omen.
Cats can hurt a pregnant woman's baby.
Blue eyes are good luck for an Italian and makes them
upper class,
"Date the blondes, marry a brunette!"
LOL
etc..
Tons and tons of superstitions were attached to the culture I came from.

Funny as it is, DJ, I and one sister have dark hair, one sister has light brown hair and my brother is a blond with blue eyes!
Mutts, Italians are Mutts so ignore the slights.

Remember: When Madonna toured Italy, her family would not even meet her or let her come over! THAT's snobbery. It's funny, I think, what the culture is really like compared to how people see Italians thanks to the Godfather. I will admit though, I saw many family traits in that family on the Godfather...

Dancer