seek, I believe the saying, if you want peace, work for justice. As long as injustice exists, people will be discontented.

The first to put gangster culture on a pedestal were companies who wanted to look cool and dangerous to teenagers, to get on their side, and hired advertisers to create this image. That to me is another example of corporations not acting responsibly, but having first amendment protection. It's a problem.

I think tribal behavior explains human behavior to a certain degree, but not entirely. Basically I think humans are lazy and tribal behavior takes over reflexively perhaps. Tribes (i.e. extended families) were once the biggest form of group anywhere on the planet, but now we can create our own tribes (like boomer women). And people found bigger ways to unite together like city-states and nations.

I agree with you that there are forms of racism more easily accessible to conscious thought. What you're calling unconscious I would call cultural, which is mostly tacit knowledge and usually unexamined. Reagan spoke in the way that to him seemed "natural" and didn't realize that it was culturally learned. That's how it is with the things that seem "right," like a teacher asking a class how they're all going to celebrate Christmas which might seem like an innocent question, except not to those in the class who are of different faiths.

What troubles me the most about gangs is that, as horrible as they are, they actually reflect the values of US culture in lots of ways -- they're about making money at any cost, it doesn't matter if your product harms people as long as you get rich, it doesn't matter if your methods harm others as long as you get rich, and the members need to be loyal and supportive no matter what you do. I don't mean this to offend anyone, but the US has done all these things. We're finding out more about this every day.

How can anyone say what's going on inside another person's
subconscious? Even individuals themselves don't know what's
lurking in the shadows of their mind. But consciously, if a
human does not believe they're racist, then why think they don't
know their own likes and dislikes? As simply as I can say it,
if I like someone, I don't care if they're big, little, fat, thin, black, red, white or disabled. I'm drawn by people's spirits. So, if as you imply, I don't know me, what makes you
think you know me? And this is said in all due respect. Please
do not be offended by position on this topic.

Rap, Hip hop, "gang music," is reflecting what is going on in the lives of those living in those neighborhoods. Whether we like it or not, listen to it or not, it's their reality.

All musicians write about their reality. Rapping is telling a story and you all know how far back that goes.

Yes, it get's the public up in arms and it's MEANT to do that to get attention to their tale, their reality, their lives, those who rap have much to say in their music and lyrics.

I'm not too drawn to the violent rap myself, I am a peaceful person but by God, if that's their lives, if that is an artists expression of his reality, let it be.

I believe that complaining about rap and hip hop lyrics only give it more power. We should listen now and again to hear what is going on in neighborhoods some of us have never been in.

Those artists live in OUR country and sometimes just over the tracks. They used to get in trouble about rapping about violent police, and then we saw what the police can really do when Rodney King was beat. There was fact in the "fight the police," lyrics weren't there?

Let it be, if it is there. The music, art, in the end, tells all about a culture. It is what is left. Personally, I feel sorry for the rapper who cannot write anything but violence. Some work out their issues in their songs and change the tune. You never know.

Dancer

Race is a big subject in this country now with the election of Obama. I'm pleased. Let's all get this out of the way and move on. This is a long time in coming.

To discuss your feelings about racism, even about other races is good and can only lead to peace. We are all trying to be open about it and that can only be good.

Dancer

Jabber, some people are truly colour blind when it comes to people. I know in my heart that I am. If you say you are, then why not believe you? I do. Good for you!

Dancer

I changed my mind...
D9

jabber . . .i am sorry. i was not referring to you specifically. i was just noting what i have learned in diversity classes/trainings . . .that a lot of racism is unconscious. and of course, if it is unconscious, we can't know that we are racist. that's all i was saying.

also, i am not talking one-on-one dynamics, which are different from group dynamics (how we see people one-on-one, as opposed to as a group).

dj: curious about the corporations to which you refer who promoted gang affilation. who are they?

on the issue of "color blind." i believe the sentiment is good, but it seems a little disingenuine to say a person does not see color. is that meant literally? or is the person saying that they see a person's spirit despite their color or exterior. i can understand the latter but to say you don't see color, period, i don't think could be technically correct.

the reason for dissecting this is because racism is complex and layered. to deconstruct it and the language can be useful.

i have some questions about rap music. don't know if anyone on this board is black or can speak for black people . . .

if you go with the premise that music reflects life, then are we to understand that black women are bitches and whores?

is it not true that black mothers and grandmothers raise many black boys because the fathers are absent (either in jail, which is a whole other topic of racism . . . why the numbers of black men in prison is so high) . . . but getting back to this issue of rap music trashing and disrespecting women. if the women are the ones responsible for raising the boys, why are they looked down upon?

if the rap music is truly reflecting the society, why is it not skewed towards trashing the government, the prison system, the absent fathers? why is it not disparaging drugs as an evil instead of something cool (and i understand being a drug pusher puts one in a higher "tax bracket," but i don't think any group of people thinks drugs are good for their people).

because my father's family were poor immigrants, i do not easily accept the idea that once you live in poverty you are doomed. my father's family suffered "racism" or something like it because italians were considered dirty or stupid or something (not sure of the dynamics) . . . my grandmother spoke little english and she did die poor but was not morally corrupt. she was a church-going woman and lived a simple, digified life of no priviledge.

my father and his siblings grew up to be "good citizens" with decent jobs . . . they bettered themselves, which is the american dream.

is it untrue that anyone can do this if they want to? or is it accepted that huge segments of society must stay in poverty because they grew up in poverty? what makes the difference?

to me, the answers speak to character. i don't think rapping about bitches and whores builds character and it is so disrepectful to the women who raised these young men. i wonder why no one says much about that . . . why is putting gangster life and prison life on a pedastal acceptable to any group of people. i know there is such a thing . . . a concept of internal racism or whatever ism . . . where a person does to themselves what the society is doing to them . . . they internalize it. if this is the reason, why is no one talking about that or rapping about that?

in the sixties, things changed because people (music and poetry and other art) spoke about the things that were going on in the culture . . . making the unconscious conscious.

i often wonder what college kids are thinking about? just beer and finals, i guess. nothing too politically significant. sad.

Fortunately most decent people of any color don't listen to the filthy RAP nmusic of today. Not all is foul, but foul is the norm in that industry.

Seek I am going to take your question a step further if I may. Not only are most rappers and convicts raised by loving, even God fearing women, BUT so are all of the losers, cheaters, wife and child abusers/molesters. Most in two family average American homes, am I right so far? Then can anyone tell me/us where these male dredges of society come from? When do they change from being someones darling sweet faced little boy to what they nearly ALL seem to morph into?

We are all good women here I imagine, and yet look at some of our offsprings, mostly the males, although some of the female children leave a lot to be desired as well.

How can we fine women raise such trash? Be honest every man had a mother and most had a good mom and dad. Who's at fault?

Oh and as far as prison goes, YES, the average population is of color but remember Jeffrey Daumer, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Son of Sam, The (two) Green River Killers, John Wayne Gassey all from middle American and even priviledged 'white' homes. And don't forget the thousands, and yes I said thousands of serial killers out there. Fact: their have been very few serial killers of color, most are young white males....

Look what kind of TV the youngest of our kids grow up watching today and the games they play not to mention the computers. Now to be fair, most inner city poor kids can't afford these pricey items so they watch the other older boys around them for their examples. OMG, no wonder so many are locked up in their late teens.

The mess our country is in today was and is being perpetrated by wealthy white men, who grew up very priviledged, Ivy league colleges and the whole ball of wax. All from good familys, mom and pop! The only difference between them and home invaders and car jackers and small time burglars is that they commit a better class of crimes, one that benefits them much more than the other typs does its perpetrators...And hurts far more of us in the process.

So in the scheme of things is RAP music so bad after all? Yes it denegrades women but I can't help but wonder why? And don't forget the white rappers, and the female rappers like Missy Elliott, and Brat, just two of the girls I made reference to above.

So ladies, where did we all, the mothers, the nurturers, go wrong?
Or did we? maybe we have no control and never did have any and its all in the genes of the male animals. And I don't mean the none human kind either.

I am dead serious about this and would love to hear some comments!