I believe it is a spiritual/soul illness that permits one human being to see another "different" human being as LESS-THAN. Sadly, this illness is not limited to one group or even one period in time. The resulting hate has been a source of distress, anger and sadness for me throughout my life

Dancing Dolphin, I agree with you in many ways about how living in isolation tends to encourage belief of separateness, however, there is a personal and individual responsibility to assess and evaluate ones thoughts and feelings, which sadly, too many of us are unwilling or unable to do.

In this day and this time when we have come through so much that has challenged and should have awakened us to the illness of intolerance within ourselves, I find myself even more saddened and angered by hate now than in my childhood.

And Dee...you are so right on about the South. While KY isn't exactly "the north" I did encounter a much more blatant expression of racism when I moved a little more South. The area of racism was an important consideration when I was considering marrying my Southern husband and would not be here had that been a problem with him. However, I didn't give a lot of consideration to what it would mean otherwise...I just didn't think that in this day and time that it would be what I've found it to be. I was shocked to find that white people felt it was ok to make racist remarks in front of me just because I was white! It has not been pleasant and is another reason I feel isolated and alone and have had trouble making friends in my community.

I can’t tell you how deeply shaken I am to see the acceptance and tolerance of the hate displayed in current movies and television shows for people from the middle east or for those of the Muslim faith. It’s like…ok…we know it’s not politically/socially correct or even LEGAL to express hate to certain other races or ethnic groups but at least for now…middle easterners and Muslims are free game

I also agree that some level of compassion and understanding is in line for the persecuted who express anger and resentment even today. If they seem to have a “chip on their shoulder” we need to accept responsibility for our part in putting the chip there. I’m talking about our responsibility as HUMAN BEINGS. I am always in absolute awe when I encounter stories of persecuted races who participated and FOUGHT to make and keep this country safe, free and independent even when they were not considered citizens or even human beings and who either were ripped from their motherland or had their motherland ripped out from under them!

I can only hope that in my own little sphere, I will continue to recognize and respond to opportunities to shine a little beacon of light and trust that on some occasions, the light will make a difference for someone.

Rosa Parks SAT in 1955,
Martin Luther King WALKED in 1963,
Barack Obama RAN in 2008
That our children could FLY!!!

i am so happy and surprised, truthfully, that this topic is being explored in such depth here.

i have to disclose that i am "white" (although by italian and celtic descent which would not have "qualified" in earlier times. but i am white and i know i have white priviledge.

one of my personal challenges is to not see everything bad in "the other" and to also note my internal struggles with issues - not to cast everything bad as separate from me, apart from me . . . and i think that is congruent with how racism works - it is looking at "the other" as different and therefore, bad.

i will talk about my own struggles further down . . . but first thank youk, dj for noting that there was a time when southern europeans were not considered white. i saw a documentary on italian immigration and mentioned to my dad who had to fight on the streets as a boy on a daily basis that i had learned that italians were once considered "black," and he quickly denied it and said not another word. the way i interpret his response is that he had to fight to survive and part of that was assimilating . . . adopting the priviledge of being white along the way and he was not going to give that up for anything because to do so would have meant not surviving = death. this is not exaggerated.

in an earlier post on this thread, chatty lady, you said something about americans overseas being discriminated against. your comment begs the question, what are you equating "americans" with? with being "white?" otherwise, i don't understand the comment. could you elaborate? obviously americans come in all ethnicities. are you saying black and asian americans are discrimated against in other countries for being american? just curious about the statement. forgive me if i have misinterpreted anything, the comment kind of set me off in some way.

dancer: you said you had an idea why this forum is so white and i would like to hear your thoughts about this.

dj: thanks for mentioning the power differential. it is crucial. it allows racism to be perpetuated and i find it is very personal. as a woman of white priviledge, i know that i have much power that is probably unconscious and that this unconsciousness perpetuates racism. i do need assistance in seeing how i might change this.

sadie: i find it interesting that you would bother to note that you find the thread "weary and tiring." like someone else said, why not just skip it if it doesn't appeal to you? in my experience, people who become uncomfortable with any topic often use the tactic of trying to shut other people up . . . it is kind of a psychological warfare . . . you find it tiring, therefore others should also find it tiring and just stop posting about it. i am curious about your own personal thoughts about racism and why you are finding this topic so weary and tiring.

dee: you mentioned integration and here is a point where i can make my own struggle with racism personal. when my kids were little there was talk for a certain time about busing them to another area for the purpose of integration of that area. i had no qualms about them "integrating" with people of other ethnities, but i could not stand the thought of them having to get up super early to get on a bus to go 20 miles away when they could walk to school in their own neighborhood. as far as my thinking was concerned, when we moved into the neighborhood, one of the chief draws was that the school was close and they could walk to school. i did not want them on a bus at 7 a.m. on freezing mornings, and i wanted them straight home after school, not sitting on a bus when they could be doing homework. is this racist? i was reacting as a protective mother. i did not want my children bussed, but it had nothing to do with not wanting them in a school with others unlike them. i had no problem with people being bussed into their district - for me it was all about them having to get up too early and get out in the cold and the dark skies - and spend all of that time on a bus when they could be home. i guess this is selfish, but i wouldn't sacrifice my own children for the cause of integration. i don't know that i "believe" in integration - it seems like similar groups like to gravitate together . . . look at the immigration in new york . . . and as someone who lost all of her cultural heritage because her relatives felt pressured to assimilate - i wish i had lived in a huge neighborhood of italians or celtics or dutch - then i would have had a feel for my cultural roots - but as it is, i am just "white" - and i think that is why people say that whites have no soul or spirit - unless you have strong family heritage, you are just a group of people who don't have any customs.

fast forward to today - where i live, there are increased stabbings on a daily basis - down mostly by hispanic people. i honestly do not know why this is the case - and i am getting ready to write a letter to the editor because i don't know why many hispanic people carry knives or feel free to use them. it is a point of aggravation and curiosity to me - don't know if the families teach knife carrying or when it becomes ok to stab someone that you are having a difference with. it has become a very big problem where i live. and it is causing increased racism because everyone reads in the paper everyday that so-and-so hispanic name has stabbed someone. it is probably 99% hispanic. what is anyone's take on this and what i have said? is it racist for me to notice that hispanics are doing a lot of stabbing in my community? it really bugs me that there is no outcry asking why this is the case. i am genuninely curious about this. do their mothers think it is ok? is it congruent with religious teachings (i know it is not but i want to ask this question for some reason).

this topic has stirred up a lot for me.

Seek,
Yes, the use of knives is large in the Hispanic culture. They just are. Period. Anyone who is honest and hispanic will say that. It is not that ALL Hispanic Americans carry knives, it is the way of Hispanic gangs.

I've done work with law enforcement.

I fight racism as a way of life. I live to fight bigotry in any form, anywhere, in any way. It is in my blood to find the common ground between myself and those who are different from me and I cannot abide by racism.

The problem with many of these gangs, Hispanic, or ANY culture, is the killing within them. They seem to kill one another and deliver the violence upon their own race.

There is no self respect in these cultures. This has a large amount to do with the lack of respect white society gives them.
There is a large amount of personal shame that is born into them when they are told by their parents that they cannot go here or there or hope for this or that because they "don't want Hispanics there." And they ARE told this.

We need to LIFT up minorities and not just race minorities but gays, and other disenfranchised groups that are put upon daily and suffer internally.

It only takes one person to build the esteem of one child who is left out or feels like things are closed to him/her to help. One child at a time, and hopefully leaders in their communities that are intelligent and who are good role models.

As for your problem, Seek, I live in a city that borders Mexico, and our border is the least secure of all of them. I live in a city that has a city within it that is Hispanic. This city with in out city has it's own mayor, it's own police force, and it's own courts. This city in our city is almost completely Hispanic so I grew up with the Hispanic culture. Being Italian, I was mistaked for Hispanic for a few years until my skin was seen as lighter and my Italian features showed. The closest shopping to my parents 10 acre estate was in this Hispanic city. I know of what I speak. I learned spanish by living here.

How do you feel towards Hispanics knowing that the stabbings are largely in their areas?

Dancer

Wow, seek, you've said a lot here. There are only a couple of things I want to respond to.

Busing: It was probably a misguided policy and maybe a quick fix bandaid solution for a bigger problem, which is housing. A lot of "blockbusting" happened in the early 1960s. Too bad that wasn't nipped in the bud. I want to say that in many ways the _policy_ was racist. I think that parents' response to it was sensible, and I'm sure that black and white mothers responded similarly to having their kids driven into unknown territories far away.

you say "it seems like similar groups like to gravitate together . . . look at the immigration in new york." I agree, especially for first generations who speak the same language and follow cultural traditions. But I also recall that you said somewhere else on this site that you see the real diversity among people is in cognition, or thinking. Wish I could find that quote, but anyway, it resonates a lot with me and I've also said something similar somewhere on this site -- I feel more akin to people whose type of thinking I can understand and relate to, which transcends color, race, ethnicity. That's one of the coolest things about the internet is that you find yourself gravitating to such folks, without ever seeing them, or knowing their mother tongue.

As for the media and crime reporting -- Whatever city you're in on "mother earth" I presume you refer to media in the US. TV news in the US, especially local media, prefers a good guy/ bad guy narrative. It may in fact be true that more stabbings occur among hispanics where you live. (It may be drug-related and among family members.) But it may also be a result of institutional racism -- people of color historically have been presented as bad guys in news as well as film and other entertainment programs. Nationally, most reports are about blacks perpetrating crimes. Thousands of events occur every day, and the news business only presents a teeny-tiny fraction of them. Journalists report on much more than ever sees the light of day.

dj: i can only respond from my experience - and that is a limited understanding of u.s. immigration patterns . . . stories about immigrant neighborhoods in new york, my family's predilection for abandoning their cultural and ethnic roots to assimilate . . . from this i have a longing for cultural perspective . . . i truly was raised as a souless "white" person in suburbia . . . very alienating, to say the least.

from a psychological perspective, i also understand that within groups people have different ways of relating and processing information . . . i happen to be a type that is considered outside the mainstream so i long for "my tribe" - again, i note the irony of the reverse racism or something (don't know what to call it) in wanting to be a part of a group . . . i was never part of any group except "priviledged white female from surburbia" and while that has many benefits pertaining to survival, is lacking in many human elements. very lonely.

on the stabbing issue, i get what you say about selective reporting, but i doubt if there are gobs of non-hispanic people being stabbed that the press is supressing. i think all stabbings are newsworthy.

i am just ignorant of the cultural perspectives that teach stabbing and i am pissed about the violence.

i should have also said that the prepoderance of stabbers are MALE hispanics . . . there is the occasional female stabber, but most are male, so that is another element.

if they were shooters, i would be as outraged, but i think stabbing is somehow more twisted and personal and i just wonder what causes people to become armed and ready to kill others (many of the incidents involve teens, but not all). i assume it is related to territorial issues, fear, etc., but still am so curious at the process where a human being of any ethnicity decides that they will become "armed and dangerous" and that they will kill others. i guess i am especially interested in this because i am aware that the religious doctrines to which many hispanics subscribe do not condone violence (that i know of) but then "the church" is probably one of the most violent in history (the inquisition, et al). but that's another rant for another day.

I've wondered at times what is it like not to understand one's own roots at all or not care at all or just take for granted one's own culture.

There are times I wish I didn't have to explain about my roots, who I am...but someone asks me, or makes a remark that clearly shows ignorance about the person that they see in front of them vs. what my personal history vs. racial background.

i didn't have a culture, per se. other than a white person in suburbia. it is very alienating to not have a culture. no wonder some americans are so materialistic - i think that is a way of trying to shore up one's image of oneself.

i studied a little bit of asian culture and was so interested in the theory about what "i" means to different people - there was an idea presented that asians in asian countries (don't know about asian americans) have a concept of "i" that extends to "we." it is supposedly much less about the self than the group, collective. do you have ideas about this?

the american persona is the image of "the maverick" and there is a lot about independence and "every man for himself." there are stories about conquering "the other" and claiming new territories.

lots of violence seemingly, in many cultures related to territorial issues and conquering this tribe and that group. it's hard for me as a woman to relate to this idea of conquering everything, but if you look at it in terms of resources from a strictly survival standpoint, if one belonged to a group of people where the men where charged with the task of procurring as much resources as possible for the tribe, then i guess a good man might be a man that took as much land as possible. i could see that. but i don't know if the women would have condoned the raping and pilaging and injuring of other people's families.

whoops - i really digressed there.

dancer -- I think you and I were posting at about the same time. Guess I was composing when you posted -- so I wasn't ignoring you, just didn't see it.

seek -- I'm puzzled about what you mean that you have no culture, except for white American. You mention privilege and suburban, which is more specific -- Isn't that the dominant culture in the US? I think that dominant cultures tend not to see themselves as cultural, but instead see themselves as universal -- i.e., the way it's supposed to be, compared to the "other."

There are some intercultural theories that roughly divide the world into "collectivist" and "individualist" cultures that say that some cultures have a concept of "I" that extends to we -- the most extreme ones I've heard of are in Greece and Africa.

One of the American narratives -- I'd say American myth -- is the maverick, every man for himself. I say it's "myth" meaning, perhaps an ideal, but doesn't always hold up to scrutiny, if you look at how many Americans actually factor other people's opinions into their decision-making (children, parents, spouses, friends, "society", etc). I think the collectivist/individualist dichotomy needs a lot of rethinking.

dj: i don't know how much more clearly i can state this: i am a white woman in the u.s. - i understand that gives me priviledge. i am a white woman of priviledge.

i do not buy into the dominant culture and have not since i became an adult.

i think suburbia is souless - i think the fact that my father and his parents felt they had to assimilate is sad. as a result, i had no culture other than the dominant paradigm of suburban whiteness, which again, i think is souless.

you can be a person of priviledge and still miss your cultural heritage.

the culture of whiteness is not one that i would aspire to have, in many ways.

on the flip side, i would not have preferred to be poor . . . i was just trying to say that i understand that the immigrants had to assimilate to survive but in that assimilation, much was lost for future generations.

on the issue of how people see "i" and "we," american culture is all about "every MAN for himself," in the sense that male priviledge is dominant and americans value the concept of independence. that independence is made up of a system of supportive people - but the idea of maverick and conquering is in the core history of america (go west young man).

i was referring specifically to something i had learned about how asian culture sees themselves . . . that the concept of "i" is different in asian culture than it is in american culture. i am talking about a way of thinking . . . a consciousness that is different from the way americans tend to think.