Has anyone ever read this book by Hope Edelman? www.hopeedelman.com

After 32 years, I do not believe I've handled Mom's death yet. No counseling back then and I still cry for her and miss her terribly. But, maybe this is normal.

Anyone care to share?

Well, as I was coming down the stairs to come online a few minutes ago, I passed a picture of Mom on the wall (a picture I pass dozens of times every day) and just suddenly started crying. It's been six years since she died, but I would have to say that the agony of absence just gets worse with time. I guess that what time heals is the ability to go for longer stretches between the bouts of profound sadness, and perhaps to bounce back faster now than in the beginning.

It's been 11 years. I miss her terribly. I do have longer stretches between periods of sadness like Eagle Heart said, but then when it hits, it's really tough. Today was. . .hard.

My mother is still alive and generally well. She is a woman with a tempestuous behaviour. But a part of me dreads just how I would respond when I lose her one day.

About 10 years ago, I read Hope Endleman's book, Motherless Daughters with some interest, only because I have a mother who raised her family.

And I wondered what it would be like to lose a mother, particularily for young children.

Strange as it may seem , the book deepened my appreciation for my mother and all her flaws. I have a good friend my age, who lost her mother to a car accident about 15 years ago. Death occurred at a time where the adult children still were struggling with reconciling between their domineering mother vs. what she was like as a woman on her own terms.

I went to the wake..and found the euology meaningless..it spoke volumes that much was regrettably not resolved between mother and children.

My partner's ex has a close friendship with his mother still many years after the divorce. It's something I've never felt threatened and neither woman has ever played their relationship against me.

How could ever I feel threatened? His ex's mother died when she was 16. So her divorced hubby's mother serves her well as the missing mother.

I have written in the past about my Mom and it is that which I would like to share.

"Hi, Anne: It is indeed an uplifting experience to share our differences and, in the process, staggeringly wonderful to discover only oneness than divisiveness with the spirituality of those who have shared. And within the many forms of its expressions, spirituality has shown to transcend borders beyond doctrines and the four walls of the churches where some choose to worship or are members of. As Dotsie has mentioned, Churches are imperfect. As Maya Angelou implies, it is not about spiritual upmanship. But it was something that Lynnie touched upon that gave me a lot to think about and reflect on as a result of my own personal experience: spirituality is one with all God has created.

When Mom died, I thought of how a person I had always looked up to, and was in all aspects larger than life for me,would now be reduced to dust. Even from the depths of my own faith, I found it very difficult to cope with the sadness of losing a parent once again. Dad had only just passed away a few years before but Mom was around and we supported each other in our loss. She did more of that than I could ever have done for her. When Mom's time came, I had to experience the all too soul-wrenching sadness once again. Made sadder still, for it was the demise of my greatest guardian and spiritual counsellor which meant that I had to face up to loss on my own. As my sisters and I prayed in gratitude for a wonderful mother God gave us, I looked at all the flowers and the dirt in the pots in which they came. I realised then that my mother's body, which when alive only bore significance to those who knew her, would soon be one with all the ashes and the earth of this world.

I have never gotten over the loss of my Mom. And I miss her more and more as I grow older and pass into grandmotherhood, the joyful experience of which I always wish for the opportunity to have shared with her. But, from the few words that Lynnie had shared, it has now given more clarity to bare soul searching outside the catechism one was taught and be able to touch spirituality on a level which I have not given possibilities to consider that Mom, even in death, continues to be part of God's creation. My Mom's physical presence had simply gone on a greater journey and would swirl with time. The soil of the earth on which I stand will always share its humble status to the pedigree as that of my Mom's. And in that state of being, I will always find a refection of her amongst the most natural of all things and of God's creation.

And Lynnie, once again, I am glad you did not hesitate to post. Many thanks for sharing."

I wonder why it is that even as adult women we still adore, admire and love our mothers unconditionally. Unconditionally? Maybe that’s it. I wonder if sons feel that way towards their mothers? I think men are different. They don’t have that soul mate thing with their moms.

People come and go in our lives; even some husbands, siblings and our children, but our mothers always remain there for us, either in the background or involved in our lives, which ever way we like it. They just accept and are there for us, with out any expectations or demands. Of course I’m just speaking from my own experience, but I would think it’s the same for most of you as well.

Whenever I read posts about the pain of losing ones Mom it makes me terribly sad. I know I’ll probably be just like you gals, and never really get over it. I always have a feeling I’m not doing quite enough for my Mother. But according to everyone else, I do too much. Is there a too much? As some of you know, this is an ongoing problem with my husband. He doesn’t like my mother, for no reason other than jealousy. Oh well. We have rehashed that problem in some other old posts.

Just today I read an advertisement for a cruise through the Norwegian Forges. I would love to do this with my Mom this coming summer. She has been wishing this for years, but my husband has literally forbidden me to go. He won’t come along, and he said this will cause a big split in our marriage if I go away for a couple of weeks with my mother. But after reading all your posts, I’m afraid I may regret not going after my mother closes her eyes for the last time. And then I’ll never forgive my husband.

I’m going to check out the details, and make sure the commute to the ship won’t be too exhausting for my mother. On the ship is no problem,…it’s just getting there and back.

My heart goes out to all you who have lost a parent. My Dad died when I was 23, but I still feel his presence when I need his advice. Funny, I just thought about how attached he was to his own mother. He wrote her a letter once a week. So I guess there are always exceptions to the rule.

Thanks, All, I really thought I had problems with still crying for her. The four of us (her kids), needless to say, had a HARD time. We were 16, 18, 21, 22. And Dad, well, he retreated into himself in mourning and depression. He still dreams of her, he tells me. She was our rock.

A friend, not long ago, mentioned that it is especially hard for daughters to lose mothers. We are not yet "finished" with our bonding".

Then, the sad thing is, at least for me, I never got to finish growing up. My poor DH has had to deal with that in addition to us growing old together. In my heart, not having been blessed with children, a LOT of my problems are due to not having to share my life (as a mother), not needing to give (still selfish) and not being forced to grow up. Plus, having had a hysterectomy, then taking myself OFF HRT does not help either.

So, yes, I am a mess. The only thing I can do is make soap.....which helps me not be nervous, fills my time that I control, no one helps (my time for ME), I control the designs (DH does help with ideas, yes).

A mess, in plain English!

Anne, that first year of "firsts" is brutal, excruciatingly brutal. I just couldn't face Christmas this year, which is why we're taking a cruise - what better place to cry my way through the day than in the swimming pool in the middle of the Caribbean!

No matter where we would choose to be, it could not possibly be far enough away from the pain, so we picked a "somewhere" we've all wanted to go, and the Panama Canal was it. Beats the ice and snow!

There is no way to avoid this pain, and numbing it just postpones the inevitable - and causes its own avalanche of other problems, depending on what you use to numb yourself against the agony. But you can try to figure out (in advance) ways to at least cushion yourself from those jagged edges - is there anyplace you can escape to? Maybe a short cruise or even helping to serve meals at a homeless shelter (I know, it's probably the last place you think you'd feel like being, but you'd be surprised at how quickly the day will pass while helping others get through it too).

My heart is with you too...one thing I did the first Christmas after Mom died was carry in my pocket for the entire day a list of people to pray for whenever my sadness started to overwhelm me - especially the names of Boomer sisters here who were also facing a rough Christmas for their own reasons. It helped too! It really helped to know that I wasn't alone in my "agony of absence" and inability to fully enter into the Christmas celebrations.

I will certainly be doing the same this year, though it will be from a deck chair at the pool (no pockets, but all of the names will be imprinted on my heart).

those were lovilie words eagle and some good practical suggestions.

ANNA327, i hope you get through all the hilidays the best you can and with the best of care that you can give to yourself, its alreadie been said but the "first of's" reallie have a toughness of of their owen. In saying that they are also special(days) in their owen way.
I don't know if it be of any comphort but i think our loved ones (whomever they are) are with us at all the important dates, the first batch of holidays being such a time.

I want to clarify something in regard to my posts about not being able to face Christmas this year - I mean the gift, tree, turkey and jingle-bell part of Christmas. My entire family has pretty much disintegrated and I can't face all the empty chairs around our table this year.

But even in the midst of the inevitable sadness for all that's been lost over the past year, I know my heart and spirit will find and celebrate the "comfort and joy" that lies waiting for me at the manger.

One of the things I'm most looking forward to this year is being able to go to church on Christmas morning...it's a long story why that has never been possible in the past, but suffice to say that this year there are several services being offered on board the ship and I'm so happy - ecstatic even - at the thought of FINALLY being able to get to church on Christmas morning!

So I will be celebrating Christmas, because it's impossible for my heart to not honour the birthday of my Best Friend. I needed to clarify that, because I felt like I was commiting apostasy by implying a total withdrawal from even the spiritual aspect of a day that even sadness and grief cannot completely keep me from celebrating.

I lost any ability to talk to my mother or see her when I was 13. It was horribly painful and very hard. I had a step-mother who tried to be kind to me but she had her own daughter and I was old enough to miss MY mother. It was a nightmare at times. I still miss having a mother and I have all of my life. It's a wound one has forever, I think. At least mine is.
dancer

I miss my mom in the sense that our relationship was never a good one. I miss what could have been. When she died this past Feb., I felt some relief in that I didn't have to constantly battle with her about living my life the way I wanted to live it and not her way. Her constant criticism was wearing on me, even though I tried to tell myself all the reasons why she was doing it. For most of my life, she criticized me: how I dressed, how I wore my hair, my friends, relationships; there was no area of my life she was happy with. I have very few good memories of mom, and cherish those because they are so scarce. So I mourn what could have been and not what was.

If I can say it, Anne,this woman does not sound like anyone's friend. It is no one's place to come between a mother and a daughter even if it is a memory! She speaks out of line and she knows not what she speaks! She sounds like she only upsets you and may have no friends of her own. She needs to get her own life and leave you alone.
Be at peace with your and your mother's relationship and be sure that you knew your mother better than anyone! You are her child! You are the authority on your mother and no one should step in that!

I'm sorry that you had to listen to such trash talk, if I may say so. I'm sure your mother would not want you upset at all by this woman! Can you separate yourself from her?
I honestly cannot think of anything good about her when I hear how she spoke to you!

Again, I think she needs to live her own life!

Just my opinion,
dancer

I always felt so powerful because I was told that I was the cause of everything bad in our family. Oh, to have such control!

Finally! Orchid said what I feel...how will I act or feel when my mom is gone? She has never wanted a relationship with me and has tried to pit my own children against me since they were born. That backfired on her tho.

It's a sad and confusing place to be when you are already planning on an excuse when they pass so you won't have to go to the funeral. I mean, it's just sad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just posting on the holiday thread about my husband and his two estranged daughters. How sad that in this short life, even family can be so heartless and cruel. They involve some of the most intense emotions.

Anne,I SO know what you mean! From my friends that are single I hear stories of men with baggage, baggage, baggage! Enough to fill the plane all on their own! Men our age seem to avoid dealing with anything unless it's their occupation to deal and even then, some shirk the responsibility!
Being responsible for their own lives seems to escape them! They blame the ex-wife, the boss, the father, or anyone whom they think caused their lot in life!
I hear horrible stories of these men who are even sexually dysfunctional with women and pardon me, but only are comfortable with themselves! (GAWD! sorry!)

Is this what you find?

I knew my husband, as I've said, when we were children. Because I know the "real him," he has no place to hide and neither do I. I believe this cememted our relationship and made it honest with each other. I agree with your idea of someone you know, at least you know their baggage, right?

If he is willing to work on himself, I believe a man is worth the trouble if you are single and interested in being with someone. I tell this to my friends all of the time. It's their past they must face up to and that can be done while in a relationship if everyone is careful with each other. They just seem to have to face their past head on according to what I hear.
What do you think?
dancer

Dianne,
I wanted to say that I know of what you speak. I'm sorry about your situation and that you had one so close to mine. I, too, was supposed to be the problem with my family when I was but a child. If only we had that power, we could have stopped them, correct!
It is not your fault, but I'm sure you know that.
I think I will go to my father's funeral because all of my therapy has defused much of my anger toward him and turned it to pity, so long as I don't see him. Seeing him brings back roaring memories that I have already dealt with twice, once as a child and once as an adult.

I hope you know that you are delightful and I'm sure your mother had jealously issues and was probably scared of your talent, power and a growing girl who was showing such skills!
You showed them, didn't you! I'm proud to know you and as a fellow survivor, I applaud your life and what you have done with it. You are a STRONG woman to parlay your pain into something good and helpful, helpful for a life time!

Congratulations, my sister!
dancer9

Oh yes, Anne defensive! They say things like "I did that for/with my wife for X amount of years and I'm never doing that again!" Or they complain, "My X did that and I hate that!" Or how about, "I'm not giving up __________, I had to do that when I was married to her!"
Oh boy do they want the second, (or third,) to pay for what he sees as the former wife's sins! It's idiotic! They are full of defenses and will never get hurt they feel if they stay with themselves and give just a little bit of themselves away instead of a lot which they might have done last time! My friends tell me stories of these men and it's comical! They expect my friends to believe that they were married to these "witches," and they were so "abused," and misunderstood while they themselves were angels!
Protect themselves, keep for themselves, it's all about that now that they are over 40 and single! They don't realize that they turn women off when they are like that so it IS their hand, (sorry!) or the blow up doll for them so that no one takes away their "freedom," to pursue this or that ridiculas habit they have developed to kill the time when they were lonely!
And then there are their cars...
We call them the "small penis cars...

dancer

Anne and dancer, just read your few posts above.....the other wives pay the price. I've seen so much of this....and we could do a whole thread on this!!

Dancer, this is so true. When we understand that some people just can't hlelp themselves because they are so entrenched in anger, we do have to feel sorry for them.

"I think I will go to my father's funeral because all of my therapy has defused much of my anger toward him and turned it to pity, so long as I don't see him."

Anne,It is my own belief that your standard "minite man," as you call them never knew how to make love from the beginning! Let's face it, SOME men never LEARNED how to make love in the first place and when they are supposed to be able to take their time and know their stuff, (or so we were told as young ones,) they just, well...
they just fail to launch. I think the min. guys have been min. guys all along! LOL.

The ones my dancer friends tell me that have moved to kinky are the ones I worry about my friends running into. These types have one way, maybe, that they enjoy sex and IT is a kinky way that they have made their own. One I heard about was honestly a FOOT man! NOW THOSE, really make me mad if they are out there advertising themselves as normal, kind, understanding, love reading, love animal types! They are just trouble waiting for a woman in those ads!
Ha! We could come up with so many different kinds of unwanteds!
dancer9

I just got the "Motherless Daughter" book at the library today. The reading will begin this evening.

On another note, recently I've been having a conversation w/a friend who also lost her mother when my friend was 13, her sister was 9 yrs old. They, too, have been going thru issues, especially the younger one.

The older one, who is my friend (age 49) said that her younger sister, at around age 30, had a terrible time (21 years after her mother's death) and sought counseling. The counselor mentioned to her that, when a women loses her mother, her "growth" or maturity level is stunted at that age...thereby disallowing us to grow too much after that. We basically stay at the stage where we are at that time.

THAT statement made so much sense to me! All these years I've felt, inwardly, that I've not "grown up", never attributing it to being stunted at age 18.

As children, there are several steps in maturity, I understand. And when one of the steps is altered by the death of our nurturer, Mom, we are stunted.

I've been, and will continue to, discuss my findings both thru the book AND discussions with others, with my husband.
He said to me this evening, "Gosh, you are double-whammied! First motherless, then childless". It hit me again! I'm really a mess!!! But that's another issue that I want to take up with the author of the book after I read it. Not sure she covers a motherless/childless daughter since ones of her chapters is entitled "The motherless daughter becomes a mother".

Stay tuned!

(Thanks to all who are hanging in there with me!)

May your journey, Di in knowing more about your mother in memory and hence, yourself...will reveal the mountains that lie before, stripped of misty fog, etc.

Did you ever know an older woman, who you respected/turned to for advice?

Try to remember for those of us who have mothers still alive but not always have fantastic well-understood relationships, we still need/turn to 1-2 other older woman. Either consciously or unconsciously. I have. It's just reality...especially when mother's children...barely speak/understand the mother's language.

That is sad also, but there are workarounds.... if there are good intentions.

Interesting post as I just lost my Dad and feel anger towards my Mom as she constantly complained to me about him. I am working through this anger and it's not easy. She could never have the type of relationship I had with my Dad. What we had was a special father and daughter bond. He was totally accepting of me, but not of her.

In his later years he resented her constant nagging and invasion of his space and her controlling ways. Because he was in a wheel chair he had no way of taking a break from her. She really wore him down over the years. This was their toxic relationship though of which they both were apart of. I know that I cannot judge, just be happy with my memories of him.

Life is funny and I wonder if my Dad went first so I can spend some time getting to know my Mom and appreciating her for who she is. She does have a good side but her personality grates on my nerves something terrible. I have some anger towards her as she was very controlling and critical of me.
I actually realized today that the very thing I don't like about her is what I am doing. Being critical of her.

Maybe, hopefully I can start to see her in a different light as my Dad had all of my attention.

Kate

Need to bring this back up........

With my trip back home coming in a few weeks, I got to wondering WHY I am so entrenched in my early school days. I'll be visiting my grammar school...it was kinder thru fifth grade. All four of us kids attended, including Mom!

I've even contacted a fifth grade classmate...for years I've wanted to have a reunion of our entire classroom of 36 kids! then, I realized this:

Those times are so very vivid in my heart and mind because they keep Mom alive in my heart and memories. The years of deep nurture were so strong then. She was a stay home Mom for most of them until Dad lost his sight. But she was ALWAYS there. The school was small and intimate. ONE fifth grade class. And Mom even had the same teacher all four of us had!

Also, I spoke with the current principal and told him that I could walk into the building and tell him which teachers were in which classroom....who the custodians, gym teacher, nurse etc were. I amaze myself, believe ! I can recall where I sat in each classroom as well and what was written on the blackboards!

Strange, I realize. But I've never gotten over Mom's death and maintain what I can to keep her with me.

Yes, I know it's a good thing. But strangely enough, I am sorta hoping that it's so different than what I remember that my bubble is burst and this won't "haunt" me the rest of my life!

Life was SO wonderful then......clean, simple, moral and so full of new growth of becoming a person!

It was pure and wholesome. And I miss/need her so much that sometimes I can't breathe!

Di, good memories are a blessing no matter what they are of. Keep your memories alive, they should comfort you not haunt you. You made these memories, lived them, and thats a good thing. So many of the women here are haunted by BAD memories of childhood, so consider yourself blessed with these wonderful warm memories of your mom.

A nearby town has a weekly paper. In it photographs are shown from bygone events.Asking if anyone knows the people.This week there is a 1957 family gathering.Not my family but typical of the era.The spectacles worn the ladies wear and hairdos.It is quite formal there are are several children sitting on the front row who look like those friends I had back then.
The fact is that like you Di I believe these time were pure and wholesome.This other family group made me recall similar events in my family.Welcome home parties 21st celebrations and of course weddings.
Mountain ash