Thank you Dotsie.

Thank you Celtic, for your question "What if you are wrong?"

I was talking on the phone with my dad yesterday and the subject of religion came up. How strange, as it is usually a topic we do not talk about.

He was telling me about a guest minister at his church that had come to the conclusion that gays were actually born "that way" and that meant the church had to start reteaching the children the "right" way to live. He was looking for early identification processes to start the change as early as possible for these lost souls.

Scary thoughts, I believe!

WE then went on to talk about missionaries and the inadvertant harm they have done around the world (some, not all and we were talking about Christians). If you have not read the Poisonwood Bible - I believe that is the title - I highly recommend it to all.

PS
I know that I am not condemmed to hell, just as surely as others know that I am. Who will be right? I hope and believe it will be me!

yea questioning is part ofmy spiritual dipipline is an ongoing monitoring process as its too easiy to get behind a belife system assome you fit it and living it in your life and forgete to cheek or reevaluate....So i aske myself what if i am right about stuff but also what if i am wrong....somehow within a big organisasion that TELLS one they are right the indivduel lets them do the thinking for them and stops evaluating. I still belive in my personal responcibilitie MINE so i best make sure i am doing the best i can, with my life. especillie if i gonna infuence or tell anyone else to change their mind regarding their belifes. Obviously i got some prettie strong held belifes about certine things, things i am also pasionate about. Personal experinces that leaves no room for doubt about certine things. One thing about me is i never run out of questions especillie in the area of spirtuality. One one something gets answered their room for another question to get asked...I like it that way and my own personal certinty sustaines me under havy fire at times and at crossroads in life.

The the type of religion i belong to is one that allows me my personal responcibilitie tells me of an all loving god but lets me know their are consiquinces in the afterlife for our actions (like their are in earth good and not good consiquinces)...no not hell or anything near it but real true sufferring like comming to fullie relise the pain you actulie have coused and having no one else to blame barn yourself for that pain....Have you ever felt true sorrow? then thats trulie hell...it dosen't sound like hell or all that scarrie and its not ment to but thats sufferring indeed...but one that will stop when we evolve enough to understand what we have done, when we forgive ourselfs and when sufficent amends have been conducted. I try to do my ammends in this life whenever i can. We all go to that hell and by learning and evolving we then go to heaven....(using those words in relashion to this spacific content not the biblical notion of hell)

The new ministers stuff you weer talking about ANNO is scarrie and sad on manie levels. Its sad that in this day and age their not enough understanding that people are just fine as they are gay or straight. Behaviourist psychology famed for trying to deprograme homosexules, they had some succeses, some sucicides and added a lot of hurt and harm to the people they infected...with the trying to cure the homosexule...Sometimes out of peoples best intensions (according to them) happend great wrong doings. If their was a homosexule gene and it could be identified then would a lot more people become pro-choice, would that also include disabilities mental or physical etc.

Once in time slaviery was ok, the hollocost was ok, the inquisition was ok...them time turnes people get more evolved and find out that the stuff that was once ok and right and proper that they do was wrong to do all along...after years of shouting and screeming about their rightness and their rights to whatever it may be, it must take one big fall in ego and pride to face the truth of the destruction in the world and to personal lives just becouse they weer sure slavierie or such was so verie right......and then how do you explain that to your god, who will forgive you but their will always remain consiquinces to all our humanlie actions.

Like the mass destruction of culture and societie created by some missonary work...At times i hate the uk historie becouse of the empirilistick attitude and actions, who gave them the right...who indeed. Thats on a par with missonarie work or similar in action and attitude, and no i don't meen all misonarie work..I also havent read that book.

I gave up debating and wonderring if their a gay gene or anything like that when i clicked that i didn't need cured, that i was perfect as i am, that i have a place in heaven along with every one of us, that if i had a choice (which off course i have) that i would not chose a diffrent lifestyle for me, despite the descriminasion, harrasment and nonsences your faced with living a "in or out" homosexule lifestyle...and one i am not sorrie about (oh how dare i to be happie and unrepentant lol)As with all of life their are disadvantiges like which i have just named, but off course their are advantiges.....otherwise why would we be so resistent to changing life style, of course their manie advantiges to this lifestyle....

Ah, yes Celtic. You are perfect, just the way you are!

My words are meaningless. My life experiences are meaningless to anyone but me. The writers of the Bible refer to it as a Pearl of Great Price. So I'd like to just end my part of the conversation in this way and with these words which aren't my own since Casey, you seem to look for wisdom within its pages, and Celtic and others, you seem to be open to more understanding of spiritual issues:
Romans 1:17-32

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of man, who hold the truth in unrighteousness:
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shown it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore, God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.
Who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for evr. A-men.
For this reason God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use of their bodies into that which is against nature.

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness,maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

I love my GK's and daughters very, very much. I wouldn't destroy them for committing rape, Celtic, or any other sin. But, if my children and how well I know this personally, broke the law of the land, there are places where they are taken for years for things like selling drugs, taking a life, concealing a weapon, stealing. Nothing I can do can prevent my precious ones from going there if they are law breakers.

I didn't create prison or the electric chair or the gas chamber. I wouldn't! But those places are necessary because people choose to break the law and no amount of compassion for them will take the keys away.

God didn't create Hell for you or your's or for mankind at all. It was created for Satan and his demons and some day they will go there forever, but not all mankind chooses to be a child of God. Some precious creations of God choose to serve another master. If you aren't serving God then you are serving his arch enemy and don't know it.

You can't serve two masters. If you are self serving, then your master isn't God and there are only two of them.

I'm so far from what I would like to be. I slip up everyday in one way or another and have to ask God for forgiveness. I, for one, need guidance and wisdom and love. I've found peace and comfort but I need more of God's love. I don't want or wish to argue. The Truth is too precious to argue over it. I'd much rather show you the love of God by having more of Him in my life.

Its a weight scale for me...too much of one thing tips it in a way you don't want it to go, too much of another and it goes the other way. I'm going to pray for each of you in the Spirit and for myself too that God will allow me to be a conduit of His love for you.

Is Christianity the One True Religion?
by Hank Hanegraaff

Why are Christians so arrogant in claiming that they alone possess the truth? Don't all religions lead to God?
... religions harbor irreconcilable differences, demonstrating that they cannot all possibly lead to the same God. Logically speaking, they can all be wrong, but they cannot all be right.

We, therefore, need to ask which religion points to the right God and consider how certain its claims really are. Regarding these questions, Christianity towers above the other religions of the world. (I love this part:)For instance, while every other religion would have humanity try to reach up to God, Christianity says God reaches down to humanity. In other words, God's favor was obtained for humankind by Christ's life, death, and resurrection, and not by our own human merit (Eph. 2:8-9).

...

All people, regardless of their religious circumstances, need to hear and heed Christ's message because Jesus pointed to Himself as the only way to God (John 14:6).

If you've never listened to the Bible Answer Man, Hank Hannegraff, and you'd like to, you can do so here: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Bible_Answer_Man/Article.asp?article_id=198 He is well learned, well versed and makes a great deal of sense of things. I use to listen to this guy every noon when I was working. He was my lunch buddy, so to speak. Check out his audio archives, or catch him live. BTW, he answered emails I sent him, in the past. He's so busy now, though, I don't know that he still responds, personally. He does answer questions, if you call in to his radio talk show and you get through.

Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

-Dr. Seuss

God Bless

NL QUOTE you seem to be open to more understanding of spiritual issues: END QUOTE

yea as always i am more open to spiritual issues However you pick your section or quotes from the bible ARE QUESTIONABLE as not to promote or furtheir anyones spiritual understanding (how manie times have you chosen to print this passage) but in some way to couse hurt or offense or bad feeling, or just to keep us (all) in line...not becouse you say so but according to your interpritasion of a holie book...i don't think your as naive as you would have us belive but its a clocked attempt at discord. Sorrie but theirs none in this hart...

It wouldn't matter so much if you held your belifes, which you are fullie entitled to and they weer harmless but it remaines that they are not harmless...This passage of the bible is questionable as are all passages, as we have previouslie descussed ...but holding it in is litrale interpritasion creates and maintaines attitudes of hate, homobiobia, descriminasion, violences and even death.....all in the name of god (or your interpritasion of him)...Pitie you never chose loving supportive passagess

please dont pray for me i can do without that thanks all the same.

Your kids or anyones have commited crime, yes their is prisons and punishments for crim as their should be.....then rehabilitasion. No were have i said that anyone should escape consiquinces for their actions, on earth or heaven and they will.

However it wont be the eternal suferring and damnasion as you repeatidly clam it to be......i think in my last post i made it more than clear what my view on the afterlife is according to my belifes in relation to hell....So no need to go over them again...

god bless you in your attempts at finding guidance and wisdom, love and forgivness....

i whish you all that i whish for myself, as you are, your just perfect as i am however that dose not mean that evolosion towarda a more spiritual way is necassary....for me in my mind and my hart i am doing that, and thank you i am just pefect the way i am as you are...

ANNO THANKS your just pefect as you are too.

HL DR suess you crack me up love lol but funnie weer wisdom can be found, even in books for our kids....

GIMSTERE .

christianity has manie diffrent donominasion which all belive and claim to be "the way"...i not sure how one can amalgimate all the diffrent disiplines, as they all have diffrent doctrines and ways of interpriting the bible...then catholisisum with its dogma, sants and so on. Christianity as we have discovered throught this thread has manie diffrent facits.....Also is their muslums willing to steap forward and descuss their belifes, and buddists willing to do the same......In the absences of that it's only christians descussing which version of christianity is right.....and off course it be the one the indivduel belongs to....

for one to discuss "if christianity is the one true religion" we have to discredit other religions and say they are wrong .....and those of other religions will have to say christianity is wrong becouse theirs is right. In worst case sinario ....Just a question, is this wise?.....or am i being overly cautious....

i be more comportable discussion the "one true way" as in what caricteristicks are true to god, or the pathway to god ie love, compasion, forgivness, tollerances, concinse, dedicasion to god, acceptance for all and such....

For me their is at the present my, religion which is, not necassarilie christion in fact it dosent alline itself with any of the majour religons as its more intrested in pathways to god. However it is filld with christions from all denominasions and other religions too. That for me is the "true religon" (for want off a better word)as i am all for inclusion to god, heaven for all people etc. If this wasent the one for me then i wouldn't follow it.... Thats about as far as i am willing to discuss the validity of any religion being "thee true or the only valid one".

abyway their only 2 in the descusion who identifie as christion, the rest are "other"...but if you can pull it off with no hurt feeling then..go girlsss

cheers celtic

Recently I read about someone describing himself as a "grace" Christian as opposed to a "law" Christian. For me, a "grace" Christian is one who believes that they are saved (or loved unconditionally, or however you want to interpret "saved") by God through grace, not through acts. A "law" Christian would be one who believes that they can only be saved by performing certain acts and following certain beliefs.

Paul (who was quoted by both NL and Gimster(via Hank's site)) came from a particular Jewish sect that was very law-oriented. As I read through the texts, I can see where this orientation plays out in his efforts to create a new church. Paul is interesting because of the various ways he talks to his different congregations to get them to form into organizations. He's also got some beautiful things to say, as well as some really hateful things to say -- some of which contradict each other. And some of which contradict what Jesus says and does. So I am always curious why, to some people, what Paul says and does trumps Jesus.

Gimster, I took a look at Hank's site and the Christian Research Institute behind it. Two things stand out to me. One is that Hank is a "rapture/last days" believer. I don't subscribe to that particular belief, although I understand that there are many who do. The second is the following quote from the "What We Believe" page of the CRI site:

Quote:

---

(1) The Holy Scriptures, comprised of Old and New Testaments, are fully and verbally inspired by God and are therefore infallible in the original writings and completely trustworthy in all areas in which they speak. Their central salvation message and essential teachings are clear and accessible to all who follow the standard and self-evident rules of literary interpretation. They are therefore the supreme, unmediated, and final authority of faith and practice for every believer.

---

And, as I've said before, I don't subscribe to literal interpretation of the Bible, although I accept that there are those that do.

Most of the time, I am willing to live and let live in terms of faith, but I know that Celtic has a point. There's beliefs that lead to some pretty harsh actions and the "LGBT is sinful" is one. Innocent people have been killed over that. And I just read about the statements by Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr. regarding "correcting" homosexuals before birth (Hannalore referred to this) and I am aghast. However, I can't put my reaction better than this one:

Quote:

---

My question is that if we can alter sexual orientation prenatally can we alter hate, stupidity, and fear while the future child is a fetus. If there was something about humans that can be altered what would be the most dangerous characteristic we have as a species? Is it really sexual orientation?

---

So, where does a simple difference of belief in how we worship God/dess begin and end? Where does our personal belief begin to adversely affect other people?

Think back to when people were corrected because they were left-handed. For far too long, people viewed left-handedness as the "sign of the devil."

Just curious and don't mean to offend. These are my beliefs. Sorry for being so long-winded.