I have to confess, Anno, that that statement threw me as well. NL, I am curious. Can you see that when you make a statement of "truth" it is different from stating that you believe that something is "true"? It doesn't change your belief or your conviction or the love I know is in your heart. It doesn't mean you aren't right. But it allows the rest of us to feel a little less hammered.


I've been doing a great deal of study of theology through something called Education for Ministry. It's interesting and allows me to become more and more clear about my beliefs and more at ease about them. And I have become more aware of the difference between the doctrine of organized religion and the essence of the religion. My beliefs are in the hearts of religions/beliefs which are very similar, not in the doctrine.

I hang around the Episcopal church as much for community as anything else. The mass gives me something indefinable and beautiful that is dependent on a ritual. Rituals can be very grounding for many people and take many forms in different religions and outside of them.

How do rituals help you know about God (whatever you may call her/him/it)?

i dont like battles or wars in any form, being in the physical or just in the mental or hart. Batlles belie an attitude and that attitude in relasion to battle or wars is necasariliy one betterring the other.....in this case it all others comming to belive that christ is the lamb of god or "sacrificial lamb of God those that don't belive are condemned already because they haven't believed".

your pathway may be in servitude to christ but the religion is one of dominances...it necasarilie relies on the fact that all others have to take this religions basic principles and make tham their own in order to gain access to the afretlife. There not much freedom in that for me. I do however understand weer your comming from.

One thing i agree on and have to congratulate you on is your degree of belife in you spacific religion, i have said it before and i saying it again...to live a spiritual life is not necassarily the easiest of pathways..."It takes a strong person to walk the path to salvation and to finish the race set before them".END QUOTE to live by ones convictions dose take strenth regardless of the conviction.

I am glade you want what is best for me and my soal but...its not to be found for me within your religion. Remember the sexule sin part, i don't want a drawn out conversasion about it, but i don't belive god would make such matters into a test of faith for me or anyone else....

In some ways the christions stance on this and my own meditasion and considerasion of matters, over years, helped me make a choice in my life and from the choice go looking for a diffrent expresion of the devine. In the long run it was a good thing.

Its in opposition to your religions belife but within my world and belife system and church then i am ok just the way i am...that represents more the god i want to follow...so don't worrie or give it anymore thought, its all ok.

Within my own church i get to be a preacher, a spiritual healer, inspirasional talker none of that would be their for me within christion religions...so its all worked out fine. My skills are weer they are best used in service to god

well thanks for sharing your belifes and the core of your religion, stay true to yourself on your own path.

CASIEY
And I have become more aware of the difference between the doctrine of organized religion and the essence of the religion. My beliefs are in the hearts of religions/beliefs which are very similar, not in the doctrine.END QUOTE

can you expand on that becouse it sounds intresting and i a bit confused about the docturn ...."hearts of religions/beliefs which are very similar"....is that your own belifes or your churches.....your studie sounds intresting.

as of retuale. In private i have daily and nightly prayer....and more harder to do with the chikd around is medistasion. I can pray and feed him etc. but i need bit more peace for meditasion....for me praying is like talking to god meditasion is quiting my mind and waiting for answeres to prayers or a better way to do things, so often i find i am rong about things in meditasion. ....i love group singing be it hymes tradisional or not...i love the energy that comes from it.

catholisisum has manie stric or regimented rituals around the mass and something about it and about the order and predictibility of it all brings me comphort...The time honered tradisions of give me a great sence of age of it all ie communion

so when i moved cghurches which is based on 7 principles, the lack of rules and strick ways was a bit scarie for me at first but it turned out to be just what i needed, theirs also order to services but less flamboyance of catholisisum....i let someone else take a turn.

even if its a ritual they perfor in private regulary that has some meaning for them i would give it credences ....as i don't belive you need manie people for things to be effective.

celtic

Many people will stumble over the truth as it is referred to as a "stumbling block to many". Ultimate truth is a concept many won't accept or embrace. That's to be expected. I wouldn't expect everyone to embrace the truth.

All one has to do is read Revelations to know how the end of time will play out. There will always be wars and rumors of wars. There will also be another ethnic cleansing, but it will be the Earth ridding herself of Christianity. I believe in the rapture of the saints, that in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, the saints of GOd will be caught up to meet him in the air, that the dead in Christ will rise, the graves will split open and we will meet Christ in the air and be with him forever.

Then the world will be Christianless, for lack of a better word. Finally!! Finally the world will experience freedom from these, as Celtic puts it, dominant peoples who have thought the only way to eternity with God was through the blood of Jesus Christ, his son. That should take care of things, right? A new era of peace and unity? Right, wrong! The new world leader will rise up from the midst of the 10 nations that will be left of the EEC. A powerful leader who promises world peace and harmony. Then she will turn on her own people and there will be no place to hide.

The only way, then that those who come to believe in CHrist at that late date will make it is to choose to be beheaded. Ancient mythology states that all power of the spirit can be taken over by the conqueror by decapitation. That's the logic behind and the religious belief behind the cannibals and head hunters. If you remove the head, the spirit and soul of the person comes to empower you.

Christians won't be able to buy or sell, we won't be able to get medical treatment, we won't be able to educate our children. We won't be able to work or draw welfare because we will refuse to take the mark of the EEC which is the sign of the beast.

Its all in Revelations. Its been there for centuries. That's why it is so important to be right.

It doesn't matter how "good" you are or how much you give, or how much you "love". In my opinion any type of love outside the type of love exemplified by Christ is nothing but lust. Lust is a selfish kind of love that gives the lover something in return. There is a payoff for the loving. Unconditional love doesn't say, "what's in it for me?" It loves because Christ first loved you.

The Bible states that at the end of time there will be those who will say, "But, Lord, we cast out demons in your name, we gave to charities, we took food to the homeless and all in your name." In that day Christ will say, "Get thee behind me, you workers of iniquity for I never knew you." The word "knew" in the above text in Hebrew means the same thing as when Adam "knew" Eve and she conceived and bore a son. It involved intimacy. An intimate relationship with Christ is needed. A daily walk and talk with Him, an openness and conversation and willingness and desire to be what He wants us to be.

Its not about religion. Its not about theology or "the Church" or "the Reverend Doctor so and so." It is about you and me, everday Mary and Joe, knowing the Son of God and having a cup of coffee with Him everyday. Trusting Him with our lives, our children, our jobs, our relationships. He doesn't tolerate sin in any form, but he loves the sinner and isn't willing that anyone, even the sinner should perish, but the decision is up to us. He can't and won't make it for us.

There will also be another ethnic cleansing, but it will be the Earth ridding herself of Christianity......END OF NL QUOTE
Well that be about one thired of the world populasion....would the world be better off without christianity or christions.....doubt that very much and i would miss manie dear frends...would i have any part in this or stand by and idealy watch it happen NO...not every christion person attempts or has an attitude of conversion and they still remain valad fervent christions

Think you miseunderstand me i am not anti-christion...it may not be my belifes but i no desiree for the erradicasion of anything weather its in my belife system or not. i love CASYS christ follower instead of christion distinction...that made sence to me and closer to what i belive, (christ as one of many) "guiding lights in the world"

Moreoften or not what we clash over and what i generallie find distasfull about anything is when one person, one ideology....one anything clames or tryes to creat a monopoly....when one person has to belive in a somthing in order to ..xyz or they will face terible consiquinces... thats attempts to take choice from the individuel, thats weer dominasion lives..

Throughout the thread NO ONE said christanity shouoldn't be heer, or be accepted..

HANILORE asked you a question, CASY gave you a grammatical suggestion....which was accurate and made sence....Was their any reason for ignoring any of the two ladies question suggestions? to focus and write what you did?, just curiouse....it might help us move on to new topic in the descusion...

celtic, at no time was I embarrassed or hurt. I was in a totally different place. I'm over it now. No apology necessary.

My younger brother called me Saturday. We ended up talking about a great many things mentioned on this thread - our discussion stemming from a statement I made about our mother. He is not a Christian. He doesn't believe that our salvation is based on what he calls a d--- j--. I asked if he would call him George or something as generic, if nothing else, but don't use d---j--. He obliged. We ended up laughing, even though my insides were curling in upon themselves.

Back to what we discussed... He told me he has been pronounced dead 3 times in his life (something I did not know). First time was a cycle accident. That time he said he remembers looking down at his body and everyone standing around him. But, most of his memory was about him trying to open his eyes and not being able to. He wasn't in his body to open them, or something like that. The second time he "died", he doesn't remember floating above his body, or much of anything else... no white lights, tunnels, etc. He has the document saying he was dead, tho. The third time he died, he was in Cambodia (during the Vietnam conflict) and was shot 3 times in the stomach. Again, he was pronounced dead. He remembers floating above his body that time, too. He didn't want to re-enter, he said. But the attendants kept working on him and he survived. He was unconscious for a long time, but when he regained consciousness, he said he was pissed. He said he didn't want to be back in this place. He said he saw no heaven, no hell, no white light, no tunnel, no loved ones waiting, etc. He might have some denial issues, or some memory loss, but that's not for me to judge. I was hoping to hear from him that he finally felt loved, tho.

We ended up laughing our a---- off. He's 11 months younger than I am, was reared by the same people, lived in the same environment, and we believe so differently... yet, we were able to talk, share deep feelings and respect each others' input... and come away laughing and thinking how wonderful it is to have someone to talk with on an interesting level.

can't work out what a d---j---- is but thats my dyslexia but poin i got was it curling your insides but ya found a comprimise.

wow prononced dead 3 times is quite a lot...it gets kinda dishartening that heers someone that could bring proof one way or another of what the afterlife is like, the no tunnel or loved ones meeting might bring upset to some to heer of this...one thing that proves to an extent the aftrlife was that he was concise and "their" is some other form than the physical....but what was to be the next stage of that type of being can't be determind. A couple things might come into play as you say some memorie loss could be possible on reentering his bodie..Or he wasen't gonna stay dead so the next stage in afterlife wasen't to be reveled to him. For some recently dead they have short time of clinging to the life they know and what is a habit to them. Hence the decessed being at their own funeral etc. and also it can takes some time for the relisasion that they realie are dead to sink in....once it dose sink in then who (our loved ones and guides) have been with us all along become into focus for them....and then their guided over to the next stage...

I have had similer types of experinces without the being prononced dead....i was deap asleep...and rolled over fell off the bed but stoped half foot from htting growned face first, then something cought my attemsion at other side of room I simplie thought whats that their! and the next insten was over their...so it all went by though...high emotion brought me back into my bodie such as fear the first couple times i was afraid and then exitment lol...so a calm state was/is necassary for me to stay out for a good bit of time...but i don't get to wonder far ....

bet a few people also had thes types of experinces...

i know i been warrned maybee 60 seconds or so before an event and took action imediatly and becouse i took action my life was litrialie saved...thats happen a couple of times...Same in relation to other people close to me saved their lifes too at diffrent times. Whish that their was a longer warning period, once i had 1 week but couldn't work it out just new something was gonna happen, the day it did happen i was neer brakdown lol (ok thats a bit of exagirasion)....thats just a leap of faith to hear or feel then take action doing what one is asked or trying to work out what being senced as in the longer example...This example i wasent to do anything but just know about it i think..they did die but weer revived and ultimatly saved 5 times...

Anyone else want to share about any of this....

Do you want to tell the storie about your hug again...as it may be relivent at this stage of the conversasion...and its uplifting. I like it first i read it and not sure if it was in this section probebly a few havent read it...and it dose provide some evidence of continuasion of life.

Using your famous words, NL…"with all due respect", I'm going to throw in my two cents.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Imagine this. -- You are God. Would you use your power to instigate suffering after life? If so, … for what? You who are all mighty,…you the creator of all things,….why would you want to create a hell for people to burn in forever? Why would you, almighty God, even need it?

Although, NL, you have the power to punish your grandchildren brutally, you would never do something like that;… throw their poor souls into an open fire? I think not! … So why on earth would you think that God Almighty would bow down to such resources?!

What you claim you saw in your near-death experience are thoughts and dreams that come from your own mind and fears.

These preachings of devils and hell are man- made myths, created to manipulate and dominate over people. They were used to control believers to benefit Kings and Lords. I can't understand how in our modern day society these beliefs still exist, other than they are being doctrined into innocent children's minds.

Preachers live off their followers…No need to have a preacher if you don't have something to scare the people with.

If I could, I'd give you a little pearly treasure box. When you open this box, peace and tranquillity will flow out and into your heart. You will feel like you are one with the world. Your fears and thoughts of the after-life will disappear. You breathe in deeply, and enjoy the here and now. Your soul is as rest knowing that no perils or ugly threats are awaiting you on the other side. You are a child in God's hands…a child that feels protected and loved and never threatened, for he is God, the Father of us all. And as you would not harm your own children, he would never allow your soul to be harmed.

I believe we return to where we have come from; from the nothingness to freedom from strife, where no longings or fears accompany us.

Peace

Wow, Gimster, three times is a lot. I had the white light/tunnel experience once, but it was a long time ago. I know at a deep level (for me) that eternity is a fog, a cloud, where we all rejoin together. (again, my belief) It's very peaceful.

Of course, there was an article in Time Magazine that said that brain researcher's believe that the tunnel/light thing is just being deprived of oxygen! Go figure! LOL

Celtic, church doctrine's are things like only men can be priests, ministers, etc., the hierarchy of bishops, etc., the literature that is used. Things like that. For example, in the Muslim world, the Koran has (in theory, at least) the words that Mohammed wrote based on what he heard from God. There is another book containing the hadiths which describe what Mohammed said and did during his life. The hadiths give rise to a lot of the doctrine of Islam, including the covering of women and much of the excess of the Taliban.

For me, the absolute following of doctrine and words written in a certain culture and time that cause many of the problems we see between religions. For example, the Bible says we should stone women for adultry. Do we want to do that? I don't think so, but there is a certain sect in the world that believes that we must follow what the Bible says literally -- every word. They are for the stoning of women adulterers.

Fortunately, Jesus came along and suggested that those without sin throw the first stone and no one did. The message there, as well as one of my favorite sayings that you can't see the log in your own eye for looking at the speck in someone else's, reminds me to mind my business and work on myself before forcing my beliefs and doctrine on someone else.

As always, my beliefs -- take what you like and leave the rest.