yea that white car things a great example, and we are all sensitised to certine or diffrent things so those things prick us or catch our attension becouse they are relivent to us or our frends...the homosexule or litrale interpritasion has been printed out 4 times in the last mounth or two mounths...

I wouldn't want the thread to be closed as it (residue or bad feeling) just pops up in other places...so it has to diea down of its own accord with everyone having their say...think thats best....better is when feathers don't get ruffeled by mutule respect.

i don't think all christians are bad or wrong or hatfull, or that the religion is wrong...i have manie frends and one who vistists weeklie, who are adamant rock solid christions. In the latter example we had one or two chats about belifes and lifestyles then we got on with the busness of being frends...

do you know i have found a dear frend on this forum we chat pm wise and (once for 2 hours on the phone) and i was so surprised how much i liked this woman, (but know i would) we both aware of our diffrences yet both get to talk about christ....being lent and talking and descussion the crucifixtion she nearlie/i nearlie lol had us in tears...We meet and bonded becouse we both sillie but serious when it counts...the inital conversasion was about "what do i do about my child going to christion school and would he be descriminated agenst"..both said our peace but with open harts and respect now we frends...i have great respect for her and love her dearlie, she reallie adds to my life....and another rock solid christion.
i know your not trying to convert anyone to anyway...i am gaining a sence of your self via the posts.

i am at peace with myself in relashion to this stuff but know my kind of people range in reaction to this from fear, shocked to anger to genuine pain and confusion. There manie suicides and addictions becouse their is no reconsiliasion of lifstyle with religion within the indivduel...
becouse i love god and have an active spiritualitie seeing someone, anyone turn their back on god is reallie painfull for me, especillie if their scared out their wits...Thats why i will always speek out agenst certine things...

I think i got a big social consionse and feel a social responcibilitie to protect and to speek for those that dont cant have a voice...its a strenth and also a failing of mine at times..
I am also aware of the people reading and not responding, or the lurkers lol and who know the effect this has on them....it has the potencial to hurt and heal them, i whish for the later, especillie in relashion to god and the fate of their soul.
thank you for the considerasion and inclusion.

God has nothing to do with the sin in the world. That's why He sent Jesus NL QUOTE...yes that is why he sent him, his example of how to live was and is insperasional, even today 2000 after his life.

no one should have to die for religouse belifes...not christion or anyone else..NO ONE it is never acceptable. You have nor never had an argument about that from me...i whish as much love and freedom for the christion as for anyone else and i don't know how to get you to understand that i meen that.
god is all about love, freedom, compasion, forgivness, brother/sisterhood and fair equile treatment for humankind...for everyone of us. I think thats how he/she wants us to live in this world behaving like that and being treated like that...not doing the oposite in his name, sadlie people do and they will answere for their actions when the time comes.
i couldn't read the rest of your post my comp cutting you off in what seems like mid sentances.....but i think i got the jist off your post...

There are evil people, period, in the world. There are also some very wonderful people. Everyone who knows me seems to like me a lot, especially children. I'm like the pied piper. All the neighborhood kids come to my house for Tampico and other drinks and I always have treats and goodies for them. I genuinely am interested in them. I relate more to children than I do to adults in part because of this very thing.

Everyone else on this forum can express their feelings and thoughts and get attaboys and ((hugs)), I get ridiculed and called names and treated like I'm some kind of villian. I don't know how many of you watched that movie around Christmas with Natalie Portman, Sarah Jessica Parker and Dianne Keaton where one of her sons was gay and brought his boyfriend home, and Sarah Jessica Parker came to meet the parents of her prospective husband? If you didn't see it, I totally related to the character portrayed by SJP. That's me. She was basically a wonderful person, but was villified by the supposed open minded liberal family she had come to meet.

I feel that this "family" or "club" or "sisterhood" has voted and I just received the black ball. You seem to think anyone who folds to your belief system is a wonderful person.

I have friends and acquaintences who are many, many flavors of humanity. My home has always been a haven for the homeless and I've on more than one occasion taken care of and fed, drug addicts off the street with no where to go. Not once did I consider one of these dear people as any less than myself.

You will never understand me. No amount of "clarification" or writing until I have writer's cramps, will ever help you to know me and that is your loss, because I AM all that and more.

Just like the poor hapless individuals peering into this mess, I'm leaving the forum to Celtic and Po and Casey (love you Casey!) and Gimster (sorry you think I'm a 'bad' Christian to be apologized for, Gim), hope you all work out your issues.

I hope to find a discussion group of truly accepting and open ladies who will love you no matter what your beliefs.

OH, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO... newleaf, I do NOT think of you as a bad Christian... no way, no shape, no how! Somehow I have misworded my thoughts, if you read that into anything I said. I have the highest, I'm talking the very highest, respect for you, and without even meeting you, I've liked you from the get-go.
You created a post a few posts back that I wish I'd written, it was full of "good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over" (to borrow a biblical reference).
Dear one, you are as precious as any other member. I can only hope that you accept that fact.

your leaving the forum to celtic and po....

stop singling us out...in anyway, shap or form plz

stop trying to blam this or your feelings on us stop pointing the fingure, po hasent even been in this thread. The last time you personaly attack her, ranted for pages and told her how she turned your guts and how revolting she was as a lesbian and classed her along with mass murderers etc publicalie and privatly ....She learned just to stay well clear of you for her own protection....as did some other women involved that you stuck "other" labels too. No one comes in her for tension or fighting its ment to be and is a fun activitie and an oppertunity to conect and support, why would people risk being attacked or read nastiness...why take time from your familie for that.

Thers been no voting from no sisterhood, You clamed the same stuff the last time from a diffrent bunch of women. At no time did GIMSTER call or infrences you as a bad person or christion, shes pretie fair and frendlie to everyone, while still saying what she has to say. CASY one of the fairest and level haded women on this boared and has yet to write anything that is not upheld with the highest of respect for whomever she writting to. She is ALSO a frend of your families. Thes people are your frends WHY you cant see that is beyond me...

Funnie thing is no one has puplicly called you names, or villianised you or ridiculed you in any way....Thats the truth of the matter, how you interprite other people taking an opposing view to yours is your own bussiness. Or acnologing that sometimes some views are tough on some people and can lead to hurt or harm, in the world, is not a direct critisisum of you or your belifes

Everyone else on this forum can express their feelings and thoughts and get attaboys and ((hugs))NL QUOTE...thats true especillie when they help, nurture, uphold, love and respect another women on the forum....Thats how frendships are made and what the function of this place is ment to be about. No one goes out their way to be nastie or crule to you or to undermin what you have to say about anything...

i am sure your reading this and i am also sure you wont be going anyweer...
Stay on the forum or leave do as you will...

We all get hurt at times we all get sensitive at times and i am sure manie have thought about leaving becouse of tensions or have actilie left becouse of tensions and bikerring or certine views (i know this for a fact). Its unfaire on people, and also unfair to aske them to put up with it. Personalie, i trie as hard as i can not to get into fighting, bikerring or name calling thats to do with how i want to "be" in the world in relashion to all people yourself included, as it has a wide impact on everyone who is directly involved or indirectlie involved by just reading this stuff. Thats why their is forum rules and guides to how we treat each other, so that it is safe for All to be involved in. I hope i do that while still putting my side of a descussion or point across.

Have a think about things and re-read the last couple of pages without an angery head on...see if it makes a diffrence to how you feel.

I'd like to circle back to something if I may. And that is the responsibility of clergy and leaders in all walks of life. Yes, Gimster, I agree that the people who perform these acts of murder and barbarity are ill in some very nasty way. But I also know that based on studies, we all have a very nasty streak inside of us that can be brought out by group mentality and a "permission" to perform evil.

The study I'm thinking of had Americans administering "shocks" in ever increasing "doses," at the behest of their superiors. These were normal, everyday people and yet the power to inflict harm made them crazy and very hurtful.

We've seen it with our own dear sons and daughters in Iraq in the prisons.

I believe that leaders have a responsibility. There are many people who regard clergy as speaking the word of God -- as absolute authority. Indeed, many clergy foster that belief. So when they vilifile homosexuals, or say that they are evil, they are in effect, giving permission for very bad behavior.

When I say Paul trumps Jesus, it's just the passage that NL quoted a while back from Romans that I'm thinking of. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, but doesn't (to my recollection -- could be wrong!) ever vilifile homosexuals. Yet, it's Paul's passage that gets quoted all the time.

I think that having a spiritual basis is so very important, whatever its basis. I see too many of my clients without one who are very adrift.

Bless you, Gimster and Celtic for hanging in there and having a really fine discussion willing to look at things in a loving way. NL, we love you.

And we love all you "lurkers," too! LOL!

casey, thanks for sharing those sentiments.

The responsibility of the clergyin all walks of life interests me because we've had so many cases locally with men of the cloth practicing sexual misconduct with young people.

The very sad fact of the matter is that clergy members are also human. We some reason, we expect perfection from them becasue they are suppose to represent God on earth.

Regardless of the denomination, do you think they should be treated the same as your average Joe when they go to trial?

There's a part of me that thinks they should be judged more harshly through the court system because the youth think they can trust them with their issues more than the average Joe.

Isn't it a shame some give them so much power. It's almost like putting others before God, which, as you know, is a NO-NO. We should campaign to make the next generations more aware of the dangers of being followers of another human.

Gimster, I think you are right on. We need to remind ourselves that following another human being without question is not a good idea. And, I think we need to talk a lot more about leadership and what it means (could be another topic).

This would also help protect our children from sexual misconduct by leaders. If we teach them that clergy are human beings with a calling to minister, as opposed to God's representatives on earth, will that make a difference? I think so.

Dotsie, I don't believe that anyone should be comparitively "judged," if that makes any sense. Each case has to be treated differently. What I do believe is that they should be immediately removed from positions of leadership. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case.

I wonder how we do this?