thank you newleaf for your apoligy and your re-think and understanding i appriate it.

Being about addicts only between 4 and 6 % make it into recovry and on to a productive life...to quote some of the litriture the rest go into relapse end up in jails, institusions and death....the suicide rate is incredibly high. When they have tried recovery, treatment centeres, religion, psychiaty 12 steap programes relashionships and nuthing works or heals them.....their choice is back to drugs which is so horrendes for them they choise death instead of living in their addiction or constant state of pain with or without drugs. Some or all have ptsd or mental illness, or personalitie disorders etc...its hell for them. There also a whole bodie of people who don't have the addictive part but have the intrusive thinking and emotional pasin for a variety of reasons. The statisticks fair much better for them guys and ladies.

My responcibilitie is do the best i can, the best regardless of what they have done in their addiction or are currently doing. Theirs a lot i cant agree with in terms of lifestyle when it comes to the addict hurting others but yet they are as deserving of love respect and the best of care as anyone else....If i do my best and leave their healling as their responcibilitie and not mine i can sleep at night. That dosent mean their no pain or loss if they die or kill themselfs or relaps it just means its their responcibilite and mine is to do my best by them. I got a lot of love for people generallie, its a strenth and a weekness at times. Learning the above took years and a lot of pain untill i learned it.

I also belive the path or part of the cure or way out of addiction/depression/disorders is developing a spiritual way of life. Its central to my life iv been luckie and only had 1 yr of no faith in my life is was so dark it was almost unbearible....it tought me the importance of god for MY life other people don't maybee never have had that faith and if they can't join a religion then the best they can do is develop spiritual principles.....who knows weer it leads for them in the future. A lot do in time progress furtheir back into religion (that hurt them so much) but with renew faith and a diffrent take on things they make it back to religion. I am glade becouse of the religious communite and sence of belonging they recive, none of its bad.

In many ways i unserstand why you come on so strong with your religouse belifes, i think it's central to your life and you get so much benifit from it in some sences it is your passion. I kinda like that about you....I think it was gymster that said plant the seed, spread the word of god and thats all god will expect of you. Stand back from the outcome, it be easier for you and your not responcible, As you have dune all thats expected of you. Just let go of the outcome,maybee it be easier for you. But belive me i understand the worrie and drive to "save souls" i done it in my earlier life too and took it personalie as my mission and it was born out of fear and panic for others and what would happen to their imortal soul, why could't they relise the risk they weer taking etc...i was a pest of hell and worried myself sick.

bottom line don't lose your passion for your god and your way, just communicate it diffrently if you can stand back from the outcome.

Who knows what will happen at the end of the day or how it will happen.

I like the last quote becouse of it's inclusivness, becouse it includes "everyone", thats a nice take or interpritasion of it. At this point i don't know how why or when it come true, if it be true.....You might be right....who knows in the end.

anyway thanks and take the best care of yourself, it's very late for me so night and god belss

celtic

Thanks for acknowledging my apology. My youngest daughter is a drug addict and so many times I've almost lost her. I fully understand the terrible heartbreak of loving someone who has such a serious problem and nothing, no amount of loving them, no amount of sacrifice can make them whole.

Ultimately it is up to them and the one who created them for that transformation to health to take place. As all of you know I used to drive a semi. My husband and I drove together. One evening when we were approaching Oklahoma on a long haul to California, I got a phone call from my middle daughter, Alicia stating through tears, "Mom, you'd better come home fast, Katie has overdosed and they don't expect her to live." Those words fell on me like an iceberg in the cab of that semi miles and miles from where my youngest daughter lay in the hospital with tubes hanging out of her.

I was very ill myself and running a high fever with an upper respiratory illness. I got off the truck in OK, took a cab to the airport shaking with fever and fear, rented a veh and drove non stop all the way to Tampa, FL not knowing if my daughter would be alive or not when I arrived. I would drink coffee and immediately throw it back up. I would pray in the Spirit and plead with God for her life and made so many cell phone calls to the hospital. The admonished me that I'd better get there soon...

She is a beautiful girl with long blonde hair and a certain innocence about her, with big blue eyes and the sweetest smile. When she was just a little tyke we called her Ewok because she was short and stocky with the biggest dark blue eyes.

I had to stop at a hospital emergency room on my way because I couldn't breath and napped in rest areas just so I wouldn't fall asleep while driving.

I finally made it and she lived. I spent the next several days with her but she couldn't wait to get back out to use cocaine again and ghb.

My heart has been broken so many times by her and I've been angry with God and guestioned him, "Why my child? Why my baby? I can't even begin to explain to you from a mother's perspective what type of torture it is to love your child so much that you would gladly take on yourself the pain and anguish that child must go through and let them be well and whole.

Its been a terrible, long journey, I've never been able to let go of Katie. I love her so much. I've since made peace with God. He never wanted my little one to be addicted to drugs. Someday when I see him face to face, I'll ask him why or maybe it won't be important then and I'll just crawl up in his lap and relax.

yea any pain from the kids....incredible and comes with that helpless realitie of what true powerless comes from or is made of...when you have kids its like weering your hart on your sleave. Addictions such a horrier for the addice and everyne they come into contact with....especillie effecting the familie.

i agree with you on the part that its not gods plan for them or indeed any off us to live in that much pain, or to solve it in that manner their is a way out that dosent revolve round us hurting ourselfs furtheir. Some folks know this instnctivly and can cope othes don't and have to learn....Someothers have such a hard time with the learning. This world for me's about progress, the journey perfection may come the other side of life or it's just another level of journieing, who knows. I like to think that so many of our questions get answered about ourselves the world and the ones we loved, we get to know the truth of things events and spiritual matters.

The image of crawling onto a lap and relaxing a nice one. It speeks to me of protection and love. Like a 3 year old to its parents lap.....For me i don't know how it comes or if their be a lap involved but i do belive it be about the feel protection compasion and understanding for all the things i don't know or don't understand in this world.

I hope katie be well now or soon, as long as theirs hope, hartbraking as it is during the waite we never know how it turns out. I would always risk my hart braking than giving up on those i loved. Letting go of the outcome untill they come round keeps us safe and living in the boundrie of our own humilitie. The rest maybee is a god thing weather they know it or not or weather it seems directly related to god, lol their many sneekie lol indirect ways the spirite workes.

celtic

Katie now has her own place and is moving in right now. She is excited about having her own place. I'm very happy for her.
She just graduated from CPR class and personal training course, just took her final exam. She has a valid driver's license now and after they get through putting the new motor in my Ford Focus, she will have a car to drive.
She has a good job and she'll soon have at least one of her children back with her.
I'm hoping and praying from the sidelines.

it sounds like its all comming together for her sounds like she has worked very hard. A good job dune

celtic

Celtic, Sorry I took so long to get back.
What's the difference between believing that "Christ died for your sins" and not believing that and still being a Christian?

For me, the belief that Christ died for your sins begins with Paul, not with Jesus. So to believe in Jesus and follow him and his ways is different from believing that Christ died for my sins. I find it difficult to believe that a loving God would condemn his/her son to an excrutiating death. So I don't.

I also find more evidence in the Bible -- particularly the Gospels -- that show us a way to live, to follow a particular way. That's more important to me. I can do somehting about that. I can't do anything about Jesus being hung on a cross. It's done. I didn't do it.

I can ask God/dess to support me with grace and I can go to her with my desire to become more loving than I am right now. Because I believe that love is who we are and that was what Jesus was trying to tell us: Love your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

That's hard enough!

I also wanted to add that there are many different Christian denominations. Some have a litmus test of what you must believe to be one of them. Some don't. My particular denomination is pretty loose on saying what you have to believe -- but even still I consider myself on the outskirts of that religion. I take what I need and leave the rest.

It is a blessing to me to see you both (Celtic and New Leaf) really working at finding common ground. You are two amazing women!

Thank you, Casey. I admit, I have a long way to go in understanding all that is Godly and I'm sure I won't know everything until I can ask Him in person someday face to face.

Its true Bible based Christianity does have a litmus test for believers and that litmus test IS the sacrifice God made of his only Son, Jesus Christ. The reason I believe it is so important to most denominations is that in the Old Testament, the priests had to concecrate the sacrificial meat, they had to bathe, they had to wear certain kinds of clothing, they had to do this and that and to the letter of the law in order for God to be pleased with their sacrifice.

True love saw our helpless state and had pity on us flailing about in our sin. To me, Casey, love requires extreme sacrifice sometimes. In my own life I've certainly been called upon to put things on hold that I wanted for myself and have lost a lot but in losing I've gained so much!
John 3:16 says, "For God SOOO loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him won't perish, but will have everlasting life."

Christ asked the apostle Peter, "Who do you say that I am?" Peter's reply was, "You are the Christ, the son of the living God." The litmus test for knowing if someone is of God or an enemy of God is to mention the shed blood of Christ to them. A person who is not of God is angered by the blood of Christ. They don't even know why it angers them so much. A demon possessed person can't speak of the blood of Christ because it is so powerful.

I would never want to be guilty of demoting or denouncing the shed blood of Christ. The Jews sprinkled the blood of a lamb on their doorposts so that the death angel would pass over them. The firstborn of everyone who didn't sprinkle the blood on their doorpost was destroyed.

Love is misrepresented so much of the time. It isn't all warm fuzzies. Love is a verb just as rushing water can both sooth the throat and flood an entire community killing many people. It is like a fire that warms you on a chilly night and destroys an entire forest.

Even the ancient religions have a ying and a yang, a Shiva and a counterpart for their lack of a better way of explaining the phenominom of goodness in its many forms. The whole point of the sacrificial lamb, Jesus Christ, is love. What kind of love would lay down their very life for the likes of you and me? Only God would do that. Our creator and the lover of our soul.

thanks casie for the explinasion....i wondere if you get called upon much to defend what you belive and how you cope with that. Do you bother defending it or just not get into a debate about it?

in a sence its a godsend that your religion has a (loose think thats word you used)lose attitude to what you must beliver and wonder is same true of having to defend within your churches.......its makes me tired having to defend and why do we have to anyway why not get peace to belive what we belve.

i never read a nastie or distrespectfull post from you casie their always like a breath of fresh air and i welcome that. hope you are who you are for a long time....

love michelle

New Leaf,
These are my thoughts and beliefs -- take what you like and leave the rest. I in no way intend to disrespect your beliefs or try to convert you to my way of thinking! That would be impossible and you are fine just the way you are!

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Its true Bible based Christianity does have a litmus test for believers and that litmus test IS the sacrifice God made of his only Son, Jesus Christ. The reason I believe it is so important to most denominations is that in the Old Testament, the priests had to concecrate the sacrificial meat, they had to bathe, they had to wear certain kinds of clothing, they had to do this and that and to the letter of the law in order for God to be pleased with their sacrifice.

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Yes, this is the Jewish law and Paul was one of the most ardent in holding up the Jewish law before he received what he believed was his mission. In Jesus' time there were many different sects of Judiasm and they each followed the law differently. And, even with the beginning of the Christian church there was a great deal of hostility between those who felt that Christianity was only for Jews who had been circumsized (like Peter's group) and those who felt that it was open to all (Paul). Paul very much preached, as he began a new church, that Christ had come to be sacrificed as the new law. Hence, your litmus test.

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True love saw our helpless state and had pity on us flailing about in our sin. To me, Casey, love requires extreme sacrifice sometimes. In my own life I've certainly been called upon to put things on hold that I wanted for myself and have lost a lot but in losing I've gained so much!

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We all make choices which can be viewed as sacrifices. We say no to one thing in order to say yes to something else. It all depends on how you look at it. I can't say that I have ever sacrificed. I have given things up, in order to make different choices. I have made poor choices and good choices! I believe that Jesus shows us a way, a path to better living and that is as much, if not more, important to me, than whether or not he died on a cross. I accept that it is my belief and not yours.

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John 3:16 says, "For God SOOO loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him won't perish, but will have everlasting life."

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Ah, yes, John...Can I believe in Jesus and can I follow Jesus's way without believing that he was sacrificed? God gave us his son so we could follow light. And look at where Jesus showed his light -- with the poor and the meek and the tax collectors. He broke bread with them and healed them. I believe that is what we are told to do -- to choose to extend love to all and to make the world a better place before we leave.

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The litmus test for knowing if someone is of God or an enemy of God is to mention the shed blood of Christ to them. A person who is not of God is angered by the blood of Christ. They don't even know why it angers them so much. A demon possessed person can't speak of the blood of Christ because it is so powerful.

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I don't know where this comes from. Or even what it means. So if I am angered by the blood of Christ then I don't believe in God? It just doesn't seem like anything I could relate to. And doesn't seem important to the Jesus I meet in the Bible. His love extended to all, not just to the believers.

Again -- my thoughts and beliefs -- take what you like and leave the rest.