Our November read is Beyond the Corner Office: Essays by Nine Women, edited by Judy Scheffler.

A few of the women will be here during November to share their experiences in and out of corporate world.

We were nine former corporate women, averaging fifty-four years old. Active and energetic, too young to really be retired, we wanted to have fun, make money, and give something back to a society that had done so well by us. We wanted to see whether we could combine the talents and capabilities we had demonstrated in our successful business careers to create a more enriching post-corporate life.
In January, 2002 Yvonne Shepard asked us to join in a group we now call NineWomen. We used a formal process to discuss our prior successes and mishaps, joined in creative activities, visited beautiful places, and considered potential projects. Past misgivings healed. We accepted the role we had played as foot soldiers in the Feminist Revolution. We succeeded at endeavors once considered beyond our capabilities. Finally, we realized that the group and processes we used had become an end in itself. We’d already started our first project. This book of essays describes the incredible impact of this group on our lives, and provides tools and information to help other women join us as we work to enrich women’s lives, both in the career years (Act I) and in Act II.

Come back next week to meet a few of them.

Very interesting. Thanks Dotsie.
chick

Judy, it's time to begin posting! Yahoo...

Hi All,

As the editor of "Beyond the Corner Office" I'd like to tell you what we've learned about our book from readers and what our group is now doing.

We gave an email to our readers -- NineWomen@att.net -- and they told us that the book is not just for women leaving the workforce, it is for women going through a transition. As with all people starting a new way of life, we first had to resolve past issues. The essays in the book talk about those issues, and we had some whoppers! We'd joined the workforce during the Feminist Movement and were among the foot soldiers that paved the way on simple things like having lour own checkbooks and traveling with men. We learned, sometimes the hard way, how to dress appropriately and we sat through sessions with executives in which they told us dumb things like we shouldn't wear open-toed shoes or perfume. We weren't allowed to hang our coats in the same closets with the men's for fear our hairs and smells might get on their coats and disturb their wives. We spent long hours supporting these meetings and giving talks to groups and then were expected to perform as well or better than the men who didn't have those extra responsibilities. And, even now, as you might read in one of the Amazon reviews of our book, there are women who think we have no right to call ourselves foot soldiers in that movement.

Hi again from Judy

In our book we tell how we worked together to let go of the past. We probably would have eventually succeeded in giving up the past and moving on without the group. But not as fast or as well.
Now we give talks and seminars at women's groups. We've worked out exercises that help others achieve the feeling of respect for what they've done and discover some ideas about what they'd like to do next. We're surprised that we get great reviews from women of a wider age range than we expected. We've also designed a game that allows women to explore the possibilities in their lives using the power of the suggestions in the game as well as those of other players. Our game, one in which everyone is a winner, will be part of our future seminars and/or workshops

The comments about clothing really get me. Do you see what gals where today? Talk about one extreme to the other.

Do you think there are more choices for women in the corporate world today, or are there still some unwritten rules, perhaps different from the ones you experienced, but there all the same?

Since you were all involved in the corporate world, what sort of dreams do you have now in your post-corporate lives? How did your "past" (corporate lives) hinder the achievement of these dreams? You said you had to "let go" of the past - how so?

This is fascinating. My husband is part of the corporate world and some of the "rules" don't make sense to me.

I'd appreciate hearing about some of the other rules. The perfume thing is just plain stupid. Could the men wear cologne? I'm sure they did. Geesh.

Evie,

What great questions!

Let me just take the first one now and think a little about the second.

There are undoubtedly more opportunities for women. But there are still rules. I have two daughters who tell me about their work experiences. I would say that women have to understand that they have to be as strong-willed as the men, but not in the same way. That is, they don't need to use sports images to make a point, but they do need to come up with their own forms of strong statements when needed. And some men are tough and mean competitors and women need to know how to stand up to that w/o being the same way. It's such a good question that I'll get some of the other women to respond as well.

Judy

Evie,

Our simple dreams are just to do things we never had the chance to do before. Today we are going to Hyde Park and having dinner at the Culinary Institute and then have a sleep-over at Dana's house. Those are two things I've never done, and though wer've done sleep-overs before we've never been to Dana's place. A couple of the women are also going to take skeet-shooting lessons. I've never done that either, but I tried shooting a gun once at an outdoor place for that and the owner almost5 threw me out because he said I was going to hit one of the power lines.
We also get tremendous joy from the response we get from women who attend our seminars. When we leave we are totally worn out, but simultaneously energized.

Judy

Welcome to BCO! I know we all look forward to hearing your answers. Coming from a corporate world of 25+ years, and in the role of a professional, I can safely say the company where I worked made great strides in equalization up to a point. That's where the "good old boys" network was took over and when I left the company this year, (or they left me, downsizing) it was still alive and well. Sad. But true. And this is an interntional, very large coporation.

JJ

Dianne,

I'm going to collect some ideas about rules from the other women, or get some of them to get back to you. We all had different experiences.

Judy,

I just chenged jobs maybe even careers or better yet, I transitioned into another job.
I had worked in the corporate world, only woman on the managment team etc. for 20 years and spent about 7-9 before that "getting there".

Boy the stories I could tell!!! I have been at my new employer for 8 working days so I have alot to learn but also a lot to share and teach. That is the good part.

I am very interested in hearing everything. I would like to do the exercises and hear more about women transitioning in their professional lives. Mine was because of family and so tired of the male dominance I was getting sick-literally.

I am on the edge of my seat.

Lynn

Lynn et al,

I am at Dana's. Just got her registered. So I can answer easier when I get back home. But we are setting up ways for you and a group you are part of to hold one of our seminars. Where are you in Pennsylvania?

Judy

Hi all,

Judy, trying again.

The 9Women discussed unwritten rules for women at work today. We think one of them is "don't cry." Sometimes it is very hard when someone makes you really angry, but it is better to hold it in, think the problem through, and come back later when you are in better shape to resolve the issue. It was interesting that when we discussed the issue, some of us had problems with it.

Im going to find a list I've used in several talks I've given. It's not exactly a list of unwritten rules, but is my advice based on 32 years at AT&T and Lucent, ending up working for Pat Russo (now Lucent's CEO) as the Chief Information Officer of her business unit.

Judy

Judy, getting back to Evie

Hi,

I wanted to get back to the question about unwritten rules that still exist at work today. A few of the NineWomen discussed this topic. We came up with one rule that should be mentioned. “DON’T CRY.” Sometimes when you are very angry about something a peer or boss has said, the tears want to well up inside you. It is much better to hold them in and get out of there. Walking out, even angrily, is better than crying. After you have calmed down, think about a logical approach to the problem and get back to the person who hurt you in a way that he/she knows where you stand and has an even better view of you than before.
Judy from 9W

Thanks Judy. I'll be very interested to read them. I wonder if men are ever tempted to cry at work?

while I've never actually cried in front of someone during a confrontation act work, I have had to fight really hard to keep the tears back and try not to appear like I'm about to cry - which is difficult when your eyes are welling up. Then I've run and hid in the bathroom until I could calm down

I dislike that my natural reaction to a confrontation is to cry - but I am a sensitive person and I don't know how or if I want to change my nature/make up - instead I think its better to develop good coping skills, like the technique you mentioned above - hold it in and get away for awhile.

In the newspaper world (The Washington Times)when I lived and worked in Washington, DC I was the only female head of a department in the entire organization and much younger than most of the men. I came in to a very hostile group. I found out that when a women cries (never me) she is thought of as a "sob sister." But when you stand up for yourself and never show emotion you are considered a "bitch." Me, I'm just me and showed the old goats how the job was done and my staff of 14 were the top money producers from the first month and stayed in that position and they were so impressed I was then considered "one of the boys." Its all in how you allow yourself to be treated and thought of. I would rather be the bitch if need be, not the sob sister because no one in business respects that in anyone, anywhere at anytime.

Judy,

I would love to get together to do an exercise.

I live in south central PA. 20 minutes east of Gettysburg, half hour from York, 20 minutes from Westminster, MD. I can stretch the travel if needed.

I have cried at work but not in front of the "boys". I always wondered what emotion I was feeling when I felt like crying. Think about it.

When I am angry at home I don't cry-I express my point (and probably make everyone else want to cry). I am not easily pushed over so it would take a pretty strong force for me to quake in my boots.

The emotion must be frustration from not being able to say what I need to or of what could happen to me re: my job and how badly I needed or wanted it.

Do you think that sometimes the tears come from the woman's inate need to want to please?

My ex-boss would yell and humiliate so I knew that most women there reacted to that type of communication.

Dynamics are fascinating aren't they?

Lynn

I had a feeling this would be a hot topic. Ladies, please visit the home page of bws and see thier photo. Also, you can click through to Amazon and buy their book. You will feel like you are among friends while reading it.

Hi Judy. I am just past my one year anniversary of leaving corporate America (20 year veteran)and no one could have prepared me for the emotional rollercoaster that I went through. Do you address that issue in your book and at your seminars?

Jersey Girl,

Yes, some of us went through emotions and frustrations when we left work and that is addressed in the book.

Judy

Hi from Judy

Rather than send out the list of do’s and don’ts I created for myself over time, why don’t we take them one at a time and discuss our different views. I’ll use my own experiences to tell why these mottos are important to me. You can use yours and tell about any mottos you have. Here’s the one I regret that I didn’t do better. SPEAK WITH GRACE AND AUTHORITY. I was reminded of this one when the NineWomen recently visited Franklin Roosevelt’s home in Hyde Park. Our guide told us that it was Roosevelt’s mother who taught him how to use words well. Parts of his speeches are still remembered, like the “day of infamy” speech. Personally, I was pretty good about thinking through how I’d say something before speaking up at a meeting. But I wasn’t the best at getting up in front of a large audience. I think both my career and my feelings about myself would have been better if I’d been more effective at that, and if I had it to do all over again, I would have worked with a professional coach. Of course, what you say is more important than how you say it, but if you don’t express your ideas well, they don’t get heard and remembered.

Judy

And this is so important for women in the corporate world. Do you believe we are heard differently than men?

Just thought I'd share that I am reading 30 Days To Taming Your Tongue, by Deborah Smith Pegues. For about the past 15 years I have really been interestedin using our speech to encourage one antoher and build each other up. It's tough to watch every word that comes out of our mouths. Just like toothpast, once it's out, it can't go back in the tube. Anyway, I saw this book in CVS while waiting my turn and decided to pick it up. It is faith based, and so far, so good!

I have lots of toopics to discuss you you Judy. I hope we can get to all of them. The whole notion of our generation storming the work force is so interesting to me. I have good and bad feeling about it which I hope we'll get to.

Hi all
(This is Kathy from the ninewomen group.)
I'd like to add a couple of thoughts after reading all the posts.

I have been thinking about the "unwritten rules". The challenge of working in corporate America for me was that there wasn't any published rulebook, but it was a "learn as you go" way of operating.
I can remember that it took me a while to learn and figure out what was expected and I always felt like I was on the outside and I was guessing. I always felt at a disadvantage because I was sure that all the guys knew the rules and they left the women to guess. (This probably wasn't true, since there were a lot of men in the dark too, but it sure felt that way at times)

One of my first bosses, privately explained to me to dress like a "professional" if I wanted to be treated seriously.

At one point in my career (in my late thirites) I was adopted by a couple of guys who were in their middle to late forties. They decided to teach myself and another younger woman the ways of business. They thought we were smart but, they told us that we would never be successful unless they took us under their wing, because of what we didn't know. They became our friends and clued us in to such things as--is it okay to "drink" at business functions, what the expected dress was of the dreaded business casual, what do you do when you are caught in a politic battle between two warring bosses, how to "game' your boss into a good evaluation and a lot more. They shared with us the secrets of the good old boy's network so that we would know who was on the fast track and who wasn't and told us "stories" about our bosses. They even taught us how to play poker and the importance of a poker face. I really missed them when they took early retirement in their early 50's.

Even their advice wasn't sufficient to feel like I knew the "rules". I always felt like an outsider and I discovered after joining NineWomen that all the other women felt like outsiders too.

Kathy

Hi Evie, (from Kathy of NineWomen)

I wanted to talk about the dreams we have in our post-corporate lives-

There are nine of us and each of us has our own hopes and dreams. As a matter of fact one of the exercises we designed for our first workshop was called "Worries, Hopes and Dreams"

Many of us desire to feed our creative sides after so many years of managing people and being results-oriented. For example, Judy's interest is in writing and Fran's in botantical art.

The year I stopped working, I was ecstatic just not to hear an alarm clock, wear pantyhose, travel on airplanes, and happy to exercise regularly and eat well. (Modest dreams, right?)

But now I am exploring photography, starting to take jewelry classes am interested in creativity and how it works and use my volunteer position at the local library to create positive pr for them. I, like many of the other NineWomen, want to do something different from what I did for 30 years and I enjoy that we (NineWomen) push ourselves to try new and different and sometimes scary things.

Kathy

Lynn,

Getting back to you about the exercises. Please respond to NineWomen@att.net. That's the address we give in our book. The question is could you get together a group of women to do the exercises? At least 8, more if possible.

Judy

Dear NineWomen,
Here is a little joke, leading to a question I have. Please indulge me.

A man joined a big Multi National Company as a trainee. On his first day, he dialed the kitchen and shouted into the phone: "Get me a cup of
coffee, quickly!"

The voice from the other side responded: "You fool, you've dialed the wrong extension! Do you know who you're talking to?"

"No" replied the trainee.

"It's the Managing Director of the company, you idiot!"

The trainee shouted back: "And do you know who YOU are talking to, you IDIOT?"

"No!" replied the Managing Director angrily.

"Thank God!" replied the trainee and put down the phone.

Here's my question: Did any of you ever find yourself in a situation that was UNrecoverble? (Is that a word?)... in other words, when each of you left the corporate world, was it by your own choice? Or were any of you faced with a situation that you felt forced you out? And if so, how did it make you feel?

Thanks in advance,

JJ

JJ

Jawjaw,

First, I likeed your joke.

One of us was forced out, and that is what her chapter in the book is about. But Carol doesn't get on the internet these days much because she is taking care of her new grandson when her daughter goes to work. In the book Carol tells the story about how the group made her understand that the event occurred as part of a much bigger picture, it wasn't her fault, and it was time to move forward.

Hi jawjaw,

I loved your joke.

One of the chapters in our book is about a woman who was forced out of the corporation. In a wonderful way she tells the story about how she felt about the event and how the group helped her to understand that she was just caught up in a much larger event – something that can happen to all of us. She also tells about how great it was to learn that other members of the group felt like “outsiders” in the workplace and mentions that we should have formed our group before we stopped working.

Carol may not be able to get on the forum because she is very busy taking care of her new grandson these days.

Judy

Tears threaten both sides of the glass ceiling.

After working in a male dominated corporate world for a few years I founded my own company which grew to a multi-million dollar corporation.

I never cried in front of either a boss or those working for me. And I certainly never cried in front of a client. I either joked my way around the tears or else used them as fuel for the competition.

Tears are a constant threat to those in charge. They are a luxury that a boss cannot afford. Even the threat of tears can be a reason women encounter the glass ceiling. I have fired men from jobs paying hundreds of thousands of dollars and they never shed a tear. I have fired women from jobs paying tens of thousands and they cried, even begged, never realizing that their constant crying and claiming victimhood was the reason they were being fired in the first place.

This may sound harsh, but the workplace is not a psychiatrist's couch. As an owner, you have so much responsibility and the stress of it puts tears constantly in your heart. You have so many families relying on you to keep the business afloat and you can't possibly jeopardize the income of the entire workforce to accomodate the problems of one individual. You have the responsibility for hundreds of people on your mind constantly. You have to do what is best for the company or else you injure so many people.

Just another look at crying in the workplace.
smile

Smilinize,

I know how it feels to worry about being too tough. I once received my yearly report, and my boss had written, "She's a tough cookie." I walked around for days wondering if I should be happy about that. But I knew it was meant as a compliment.

Judy

By the way, Smilinize, what does your multi-million dollar corporation do?

Judy

My business was a military contracting firm. I provided specialty medical services to military bases. I did a little more than ten million per year for several years (not that big among military contracting firms many of which, like Haliburton, do billions). Most of the time I only had around 100 employees, but each had families then there were suppliers and sub contractors.

Owning a business is a huge and often misunderstood responsibility. Employees are guaranteed at least a minimum wage for their work, but there is certainly no minimum profit. You put your life and heart into a business and it can all be lost in a heartbeat by incompetent employees.

I retired myself in my early forties. Sometimes I miss the power, but not the responsibility.

smile

JawJaw

I did chose to leave my corporate job and retire, but I will admit that the environment was very hostile and made me want to leave.

I also believed that with all of the acquisitions and continuous management changes, it was probably a matter of time before it was my turn. So I chose the time to leave.


For many of the other ninewomen, some chose to leave because of "special financial deals" and some because it was just time.
Kathy

Hi Smilize and Judy too From Kathy

I believe that the reason that there are private stalls in bathrooms is so there is some place to go where people can't see you cry.

I too have been called a "tough cookie", sometimes the b-word, but never a cry-baby.

It is nice not to have to worry about keeping up that tough image. I am nurturing my softer side

Kathy

OOPS!

Meant to say "Hi Smilinize"

Kathy

OOPS!

Meant to say "Hi Smilinize"

Kathy

JJ, that was a good question. I feel like that is what just occured to me. Maybe you too.

I chose to leave but the situation had deteriorated and become one that I no longer could bare or want to be associated with. I worked out a "money deal" and left. I am too young (47) and too poor to retire (how do you pay for those health benefits for all those years?) so I have taken my talents and begun working for a state educational agency that pays a handsome retirement at 62 and will provide the benefits until then.

I hope this new venture allows me to contribute to kids and gives me a break from the constant stress of the corporate world plus the responsiblity the smile mentioned.

Judy, I am working on 8+ women. Should they be employed currently?

Any advice for a late forties woman with lots of expertise starting a new job. What pitfalls to avoid? I have a male boss who appears sane and so far family oriented.

Lynn

Kam,
Isn't it wonderful to be able to be soft. I had to learn all over again. Still not much for crying, but I'm working up to it.

smile

Lynn,

I feel strongly that I'd like to support you. I am trying to put myself in your position. I believe, right or wrong, that I would be totally upfront with your boss about what you are willing to do and what you are trying to achieve. That is, make it clear if you are happy with doing well financially at your current level or would like a promotion. Then tell your boss you are willing to support him if he is willing to support you. It is amazing how well these honest agreements work out. Maybe someone else will have a different opinion. I am always open to difference.

Judy

Back to the tough boss point of view:

Here is how I saw female employees compared to males.

I think it is natural to want to be in control. The male employees tried to control the workplace with forcefulness while the females controlled with weakness.

The men wanted power and they made no excuse for it. I think being a woman, I was a special challenge for them. Some of the males wanted to own the business, but I could guard against that and I did. The men reveled in competition, but the women seemed to be ashamed of it. None of the women ever seemed to want to own the business. They seemed to have too many other responsibilities.

The women were much more successful at controlling, but they wanted so little, usually just more benefits or a small promotion, but they seemed to think they could acquire those things through weakness. They would say they wanted more beneifits because they "needed" them whereas the men would say they wanted raises because they "deserved" them.

Weakness was more difficult to deal with because I wanted to be compassionate, but weakness could jeopardize the whole company. Dealing with government involves meeting difficult deadlines. The women would often volunteer for assignments then not meet deadline. I'm sure they had good intentions, and they always had good excuses such as sick children or demanding mates, but still the deadline would pass.

The men were more likely to say the deadline was unrealistic to begin with and if they were assigned, the product might be inferior. They rarely volunteered for anything, but they usually came in on time with a decent product.

I understood women because I was one. I understood the conflicts between home life and business, but I had to be objective and I dealt better with male employees. I felt they were more honest in their efforts to control. They wanted power and made no excuses.

I think there are ways around all of those issues for women, but they have to recognize and accept them and I'm not sure there are very many women willing to make the sacrifices necessary to get through the glass ceiling.

That is probably not a popular point of view, but it might help someone to see the other side of the coin.

Sorry for the long post. Lots of thoughts on this one.

smile

Smile

Another perspective-- I, and all the other NineWomen, worked for very large corporations for some or most of our careers. We did see some women who worked from weakness and tryed to pull our heartstrings, but we learned it was important to resist the urge to be manipulated from weakness.)

But our (ninewomen) experience was very different, probably because we did work in a bigger company and we were the first wave of women in management positions. We were all very strong women, well educated, results oriented and quite competitive. We had a strong desire to succeed and also to do "excellent" work. (We didn't necessarily start out this way, but by our thirties we were very "career-minded). Many of us struggled to balance our work and home-life but would admit when push came to shove our work often won out over our homes.

Maybe since we worked for such a big company and had other women in similar positions we learned that all women weren't weak. And we did work for some very successful women executives.

I can say that I did have similar experiences with trying to motivate "unmotivated" employees and sometimes they were women and sometimes men.

Kathy

Good Morning!

One day my husband said to me, “Don’t kid yourself. You love power, sweetie.” He was right and I came to accept that. But I liked using my power to help shy people. I went to places in different parts of the country and met with relatively small groups of people. Whenever it was feasible, I’d ask everyone to give their name and say a sentence about their responsibility at the beginning of the meeting and make notes. Then after a while when someone brought up a controversial issue, I’d pick out a name and say, “What do you think?” so-and-so. I enjoyed those meetings and always went back to my office having learned a lot. Sometimes the quiet people are the ones who really understand what is going on.

Judy

I have read that many a man have said that if they had their lives to live over they would have put family first. I've not read similar about women.

Just curious to know if any of the nine women have regrets about putting work above home as mentioned by Kam in a prior post.

Kam
I understand the responsibility of being a woman in management for a corporation. I know how dependent you are on those under you because I was once there. But as a manager, I had no idea of how being an owner "felt."

There is a huge difference between being a strong woman in management for a large corporation and owning the corporation. If you are in managemnent and those working under you let you down, you may not be promoted or even be fired, but hopefully the corporation will survive. Also, you only have your time and perhaps your ego invested, but as an owner, you have such a greater investment and such responsibility.

If you own the company and you fail, even if it is the result of the failure of those under you, not only are you in danger, the whole company is in danger. The jobs of many people hang in the balance and you lose not only your work, but your ego, your heart, and your financial investment.

Sometimes an owner has to be tough on an individual to benefit the whole of the company. And the employees can't know all of the issues involved in what may appear to be ridiculous corporate decisions.

My point is that I don't think corporations are simply unfeeling entities. Decisions are made by compassionate people who must act for the beneifit of all of the investors and employees depending on them. Of course there are mistakes made and the buck stops at the top so there is great responsibility.

I think it would be beneficial for employees, especially in upper management, to consider the company from the perspective of an owner as well as from their own position and understand how the responsibility of owning a business constantly hangs heavy over an owner's heart.

I'm sure there are others on here who have owned large businesses and made difficult decisions. Understanding that it is no one's fault and that owners are not unfeeling ogres might help those who have been displaced by corporate decisions.
smile

[ November 07, 2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Dotsie

I for one have no regrets about my choice of work and family. It was very important to me that I be a successful woman and be financially independent and I have a very understanding husband and no children, so the choice was probably a bit easier for me to often chose work as a priority.

But I can say that after 30+ years I was ready to totally change that balance and focus more on myself and personal life.

Kathy

Smile

What can I say? You are right that owning your own business is a big responsibility. Thanks for talking about this so openly.

Kathy

Dotsie,

I have some regrets about the time I didn't get to spend with my two girls. But I have a very good relationship with them now, and I travel to see them regularly. One of the reasons I took early retirement was to be able to do that. I have one grandson, and both my daughters are pregnant, so I expect to have a new one on April 1st and another one on April 17th. I love it!! We NineWomen are doing our best to help define new ways of living after retirement.

Judy

Smile,

You are right that having to make tough decisions about people working for you is difficult. When AT&T split off Lucent, I was given the job of managing the company-wide systems for Lucent. The first thing I had to do was to work with the person who was given the similar job for AT&T to decide how we’d split those information system employees and which ones we’d let go. Letting people go was the hardest, but there were also people who were afraid to leave AT&T and go to work for Lucent. As it turns out, those people’s fears were unjustified but you couldn’t tell them that then. I still remember how my stomach hurt after those meetings. And after it was all done I had 1200 employees working in my area, some of whom were really afraid of the future. On the good side, times were exciting and it was thrilling to help put together a new company.

Judy

Hi

This is Carol K from 9Women. I was the one who got forced out, and as Judy said, it's in my chapter, so I won't bore anyone with the details. I was devastated, but I'm a lot tougher now.

I now have time to work on being the person I never thought I could be. Much to my amazement, I've made significant progress on my personal "I can't" list. This has rounded out my self confidence. When I worked, I only had time to be good at two things - my family and my job. Now there's time for more.

Smilinize, I can't imagine owning my own business. You probably couldn't get away from it even in your sleep.

I emjoyed reading the messages.

Carol

Hi All,

Just wanted to say that interacting with you is interesting. I'm delighted that my friends Kathy and Carol could join us. They had very different experiences than me, and yet we continually find that our feelings about the past and our desires for the future mesh.

Judy

Hi All!
I need to post after I read so I know where I left off!

Thanks for your input Judy, I appreciate that want to support me.

Smile I owned my own company first before I went into corporate America and you are right it is very different. I ws fotunate and I think i succeeded so well because I understood what it meant to be an owner and looked at the corporation from that perspective. I skyrocketed in the corporate world (not huge company)but moved to the top quickly. I contribute that to my training as an owner.

Now I am balancing home and work because I am a Mom. Things change.

Thanks for the input.

Lynn

lYNN,

Tell me more. What did you do? What do you do now? Sounds intereting.

Judy

I am having so much fun putting your stories and posts with the photo on the back cover. I love it.

Well, here's my "corporate story." I owned a Dairy Queen! Actually, it owned me! Long days, heavy lifting, idiot employees, and the actuality that the buck really did stop with me!

My kids said I wasn't a very nice person during that time and they're right. I felt like screaming sometimes. A day off? What's that? After almost five years of that nightmare, I couldn't wait to sell that puppy and leave!

Wow, Dianne, inspiring!

Does military duty compare to corprate life?

I spent 10 years giving 110% to the USN...couldn't promote beyond a certain stage because I wasn't a man and couldn't go on a ship.

Some of the guys I worked with were lazy, and received the same GREAT reviews that I did because of the good old boy network.

I've been out over 12 years, have spent this time finding my passion and living it...I don't EVER (and I DO mean EVER) want to work for someone else again!

Danita

[ November 08, 2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Danita ]

Diane,

That is a story! Can't imagine owning a Dairy Queen. There weren't a lot of things easy about my job, but one thing I can say is that the people who worked for me were bright and interesting. I thought very highly of them and tried my darndest to help them when I could. I especially had an "open-door policy" for women, not just those in my organization, but women throughout the company. I told my secretary if a woman called and said she wanted help with her career to find a slot for her. ..... BUT I have to say that my girls would tell you there were times I came home in a very bad mood. If we didn't show them our bad sides sometimes, how would they learn that life can be hard out there?

Judy

Danita,

What guts!! The Navy!! Good for you. I'm glad you've found your passion -- do you want to share that part?
The NineWomen have very different passions -- mine is writing, Fran's include botanical art and history (You haven't heard from her because she has a college history paper due), Kathy's includes photography and journalism. . .and it goes on. Maybe some of them will tell a little more about that. But the bottom line is that we believe that we are at the time of life when it is time to go with our passions. And one thing we enjoy is telling others how rewarding that can be and getting them excited about the next phase in their life.

Judy

Judy

Dianne,
Your business sounds very difficult. I can only imagine.

How on earth did you escape the ice cream? I would have weighed a ton. Ice cream and stress combine together in my life like nitro and glycerine. I blow up.

smile

Oh Judy, I will answer your question but very swamped right now. Maybe a day or two.

I like how you phrased"the next phase of my life/career". Could you expound upon that because even though I am still in the workforce, I feel very much like I am moving into a different phase but can't explain much more than that.

Lynn

I learned to not eat it after I put on eight pounds. It gets old after a while.

I got along great with my female employees. Still stay in touch with them.

I have to laugh when people say they would love to own a Dairy Queen. Try it for six weeks. You'll change your mind.

Judy,

My passion is women. Investing in them, empowering them, coming along side them.

When I got out of the service, I quickly began to develop this area of my life..working with women with drug issues and family issues.

In the last 2 years I found a business that compliments my passion. Now I can do all the things I listed above, AND work with women to achieve financial freedom.

I love my life. I am very blessed.

Danita

[ November 09, 2005, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Danita ]

I took myself out of the "corporate game" by having a major depressive breakdown after being used and discarded by superiors who had a political agenda unknown to me. I have never been able to understand or cope with politics, and I was unable to defend myself against their sabotage of what should have been my career.

Now I know better than to try. I have divided my life. Jobs are for making money, and creative work is for making happiness, and I will try never to confuse the two.

Just my two cents.

lynn,

Even on my last day of work, I answered voicemails on my half-hour drive to my office. I used to often eat lunch while driving to my next meeting. I admire people who can have a job and take time out for themselves. In my new phase of life I write, chat by email and phone with my friends, travel with my husband, and spend as much time with my daughters as they'll put up with. I also take at least a thirty-minute walk each day, outside whenever possible, in the mall when not. This is a wonderful phase of life and I feel very lucky because I have a good pension.

Judy

Judy, have you gals ever discussed what your health might be like if you were still doing the corporate thing?

Did any of you ever land in the hospital with a stress related illness? I know women who have, and it was so sad to witness.

After reading the end of your book it seems like you all feel refreshed and happy to be in another stage. But what about those who can't leave for years to come? Do you think that's a shame? That they have to continue to live with that constant pressure?

Dotsie,

I was one of those women. I discovered a benign (Thank God!)brain tumor called an acoustic neuroma. The operation to remove it took 5 doctors 6 hours. I lost hearing in my left ear and my balance is still poor, but not terrible. My doctor daughter helped me get to one of the best surgeons for that problem. It was because of that surgery that I decided to retire early, but since I had started at AT&T during college I was pension-eligible.

As for those that have to keep working, I'd tell them just to remember that on your deathbed you will not be wishing you had one more day or one more hour in the office. After my surgery, I tried to cut back, but it was hard because I am driven. What I did do was to stop letting the bastards get me down and I think I did that very successfully. One day a guy a level higher than me threatened to have me fired if I didn't hurry up and get something he needed done. Oh, by the way, he wanted me to fix a problem he'd created. I just looked at him and calmly told him that I was already doing my best and he could do whatever he wanted. I wish I'd been that cool my whole career. It's a shame it takes a brain tumor to enable you to better understand what counts.

Judy

Dotsie

I am certainly healthier today than I was when I worked. Traveling 100K miles a year and lugging suitcases and computers took their toll on my back and the stress of 60 hour weeks and little exercise and poor eating habits (peanut butter crackers for lunch were my mainstream)seemed to be oppressive at times. I am sure that all of the ninewomen felt the stress was a negative, but Judy is the only one who had a "real health emergency".

Now I have time to exercise, eat reasonably well, am not constantly sleep-deprived and have time to see my doctors, I am probably in my best health in the last decade. I am thankful for that.

There is no real wisdom for those of you who still work. I know it is hard to be in your forties and realize you have a long way to go, but we (ninewomen)all felt that way too. One thing that helped me was instead of looking for a promotion I looked for assignments that I could enjoy and where I could work with people I liked. And do figure out a way to reach out to other women and do something for yourself at least once a month (or more). Trite but true.

Kathy

Dotsie, Late Bloomer

When I was at work, I learned a great lesson from a lady named Sherri. She was in her early forties and I was in my late forties at the time. We were doing one of those task force things, and she was on my team. We had to make our presentation to my boss, Joe Nacchio, who went on to head Qwest and then led the buyout of U. S. West. We were a half day from having the presentation polished and buttoned up, but the show had to go on. Sherri had the market research part, so our flaws showed the most there. Well, Joe gave her a really hard time and I was furious. I tried to help, but wasn't very effective.

After the presentation, I apologized to Sherri and reinforced how angry I was. Sherri looked me in the eye and calmly said "Hey, don't worry about it. He can't get to me. As long as no one takes a shot at my husband and kids or the rest of my family, I'm ok. They're what's important to me, and I know it."

Every time I felt my self getting very upset at work, I repeated Sherri's wisdom to myself. It didn't always help, but often it did.

Carol K

Danita, I am the only member of NineWomen to desert the corporate world for the world of entrepreneurship. Having been both places I feel comfortable saying that corporate America is usually careful about not appearing to discriminate against women and in many cases male managers truly support their female subordinates. It sounds like this is not the case in the military. Nor was it true in the real world of owning your own business. I operated my business for ten years 1988 - 1998 before being bought out by a corporation. During that time, men who should have been supportive where not; but men who's livlihood depended on doing business with me - vendors, customers, etc. ah - they were friendly and helpful. In business, having power often creates relationships that work. I highly recommend owning your own business, being your own boss. Lots or responsibility and lots of rewards.

Duffy

Duffy,

Of course the military has rules about discrimination - but it still exists, just like in Corporate America.

I AM very glad to have gotten out of the "rat race"...and I love being an entrepreneur...actually, I wouldn't trade what I do for all the paychecks in the world! LOL.

Job security is a thing of the past. FOR SURE.

What WAS your business, and what do you do now?

Have you read any of Robert Kiosaki's books (Rich Dad Poor Dad)? I love how he explains the whole working for others/working for self paradigm. It is a great starting place for people who are thinking about going into business for themselves!

Danita

Hi,

I am pleased that Duffy joined the conversation. She has very different experiences than the rest of the NineWomen, having owned a couple buildings where corporations reserved rooms for business events. She took big risks, and succeeded at her entreprenurial endeavors. I just worked for the big corporation my whole career. Both Kathy and Carol worked for AT&T or Lucent most of their careers, but at the end went off to work on a start-up. Exciting!

Judy

Danita,

I'm with you - running your own business is the best job there is. It sounds like you have found a business that fulfills both your goals for self fulfillment and financial security. Bravo - not easily done.
I owned business centers, some times called executive suites where I provided ofc space, furniture, tel, internet access, conf rooms, secretaries, etc to regional ofcs of lg corps or small businesses. I was drawn to being in business for myself, perhaps because my Dad was a business owner. I haven't read Kiosaki, but think that I would resonate with his message.

How did you figure out what business you wanted to be in? Was it serendippity, knowing yourself well or trying a few things until you found the right venue? I still find business exciting, especially entrepreneurial ventures. I do a bit of investing - some real estate and some privately owned businesses. I'm active in the St. Johns Riverkeeper org. which works to clean up the St Johns River and I'm working on my writing skills - taking a writing workshop. This is the best time of my life. But then they all were.

Great communication going here ladies. Dotsie your question was very poignant for me. I am learning lots from all of you. In a few days I will share a very exciting meeting I had with my new boss today and also finally answer Judy's questions.

I agree owning your own business is incredible in many ways. My hat is off to each of you that is making it work.

Lynn

Duffy,

How exciting! You've done some REALLY neat things!

I think like most people I evolved into the business of my dreams. I tried many things, explored new directions, then found my home.

I think when we look at our lives as a journey, and that EVERYTHING (Good AND bad) that happens, creates who we are and what we have to offer...even failed venues are a blessing.

danita

Hi all

Another perspective on work choices is working in a small start-up. After I left Lucent I went to work as an officer in a high tech start-up in Texas. I was the only woman officer (out of 7 officers) and there were only ten women, including one secretary, in a 60 person business. I felt like I had gone back in time, twenty years.

Since I was very experienced and mature (that is, old) I was treated as one of the guys and respected as a leader in the business. But the atmosphere was much harder than in a big corporation. (Our CTO, a single guy, spent all his time at night at Hooters. It is fair to say I was not part of the out of the office socializing--I could have been, but life was too short to do that...)

I think this is why the studies say women are starting their own businesses and leave the corporate track. What do you all think? From many of the postings, everyone seems to agree how hard running your own business is-- is it better than the alternative?


Kathy (from ninewomen)

I am tickled to see more of the ninewomen joining us. Ladies, if you haen't gotten thier book yet, you should. Then you can put names, faces, stories and comments all together and it's so much fun. I have the book sitting right here so I'm getting good at this.

Here's another observation I had after reading your book. I found it interesting that none of you mentioned God, a higher power, or anything spiritual when writing about your work, choices, decisions, etc. I hope you don't mind me mentioning this, but do any of you communicate with a higher power? I am so grounded in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that I know I wouldn't have launched this site if it wasn't for that relationship and guidance. Just wondering...

I have tons more observations...if you don't mind.

Dotsie,

I'm sort of a lapsed Presbyterian as I don't make it to church that often. I spent an incredible time in church as a kid and even became the secretary of the Young People's group at the synod level. The day that I was asked to read the Bible at the largest Presbyterian church in Pittsburgh, I almost lost my voice I was so frightened. My dad was an elder in the church and, my mother taught the adult Bible Study class and my brother was an usher. Yes, I still talk to God.

Dotsie et al,

Here's one more religious thing you might find interesting. I go regularly to a private writing class in an apartment in New York City. There are only four of us, we meet for dinner, and have become friends. One of the members is a priest named Edward Beck who is working on his 3rd book for Doubleday. He's a great writer. His first 2 books are mostly anecdotal, but the one he is working on now is more about teaching religion. I love to read and comment on his work.

Judy

I hope you all weren't offended by that comment. It was just an observation. It might be fun for all of you to discuss who God is and how He plays a role in your lives. Just a thought!

I also noted your mentions of your mothers and how much they pushed you. Do you think our mothers pushed us because so many of them weren't able to realize thier dreams outside of their families? Judy mentioned that she ondered if her mom's illness caused her to retreat, or if she'd felt she'd done her job with her borther and her?

Personally, I know my mom often flet lost in her empty nest. She was a wonderful, brilliant woman who lived her life for her family. I would love to have seen her get a second chance at doing something else.

Carol K,

My corporation DID hit me where it hurt (my family), by eliminating my position while I was out on leave - and vulnerable on two fronts. First, my husband still worked for a different division of the same company, so they knew I wouldn't make trouble and risk their retaliation against him. Second, my son was hospitalized at the time (for a psychotic episode) and on the company insurance plan; having dual insurance saved us a huge amount of money on his very expensive care.

When the depression hit me, they said, "Well, let's dump this one before she costs us any more money," and added my name (obviously as an afterthought; it was typed in at the bottom of a computer printout) to the list of people who were considered no longer necessary. Several others on the list were within a year or two of retirement, and they lost everything. None of them had the money to hire lawyers to sue. (Neither did we.)

I worked in Personnel, so I knew the history of dirty deeds that had come before ... mainly multiple women "laid off" while on maternity or disability leave. I was the one who prepared the data for an EEOC audit to prove that there was not a "glass ceiling" within the corporation, and when I asked my manager why two women's statistics were to be omitted from the report, was told, "because I said so." (By the way, the EEOC was NOT interested in hearing from me after I was let go, and my complaints to other government agencies fell on deaf ears.)

I had been warned that Personnel was a dirty business, but never believed it until that year.

Dotsie

No offense taken about the question of God and religion. Many of the ninewomen have strong religious beliefs and we did spend quite a bit of time talking about how religion had shaped our lives when we talked about our early years. Somehow none of those discussions made our book. Our chapters were quite short so this is understandable.

We also spent a lot of time talking about our mothers.Since there are nine of us -- we had nine very different experiences. I know my Mom was very smart and always wanted to go to college. But she grew up in the depression and her family was poor and she married a military man and led a traditional life. She was happy with her life as a stay at home Mom (a housewife back then), but she encouraged me to go to college so that I could have choices in my life and she was very proud of me. I was the first child to graduate college on both sides of my family.

Like many of my generation, I wanted a life and a career and didn't want to be dependent on a man.

Since my mother died in my twenties, she wasn't able to see how her influence shaped my life, but my father, who was a very conventional man, was very proud of me as I got older, even though when I was younger he disapproved of me.

Kathy

Late Bloomer

I was not a victim of corporate targeting but saw it happen more and more. It saddened me and made me eventually leave. I do believe there is an ethics crisis in American business.

But I checked out your website and it seems to me that you have found a wonderful creative place- with your poems and books. I assume that finding this place in your heart is a good thing for you?

I think you are very brave.

Kathy

Late Bloomer

I got very angry at your former company by just reading about what happened. I'm constantly amazed by how fragil the concepts of "what's right" and "fairness" are. Guess that shows how naive I am.

I went to your web site as well. I'm going to order "Intervals of Light" from Amazon. My computer is frail, and I'm not sure it could handle down loading.

My undergrad degree is in Electrical Engineering, and even though I had to take 144 credits to graduate, only nine of them were in anything other than math, science or engineering. Therefore, I'm not sure I'll be able to appreciate all aspects of your poetry, but I'll try.

Is your hsband still working for that same company? My situation was no where near as unfair as yours, yet it still took me years to get over it. I'm still searching around for my passion. Although, I am taking care of my nine month old grandson, so there not much energy left for anything else now.

Congratulations to you. You've found a way to move on to something you love. And it looks like you are good at it.

Carol K.

Dotsie et al,

We talked a lot about our mothers and some of the stories we told are in our book. I would never have made it to college w/o my mother's continual push. She wasn't a home-maker - as she put it, her jello always sat down, but our house was reasonably clean. My mom spent her time teaching my brother and I the names of all the Presidents (1st, middle, and last), history (especially anything about Lincoln), the states and their capitols, poetry that she loved (especially Carl Sandburg's) and words (both my brother & I scored very high on that part of the SATs. She was a wonderful woman and I was so sad that she died early and my girls didn't really get to know her.

Judy

Hi, I just thought I'd say hello! I've never really worked in the corporate world, just temp jobs when I was in college. I'd work one week and have enough money to pay my bills for the month. Then I'd quit. I'd get another temp job when I ran out of money!

I don't think I have the temperament for that kind of job long-term. I've always been independent. I have to be very structured for my business to succeed, but I don't take well to structure applied from outside. Also, if something was unfair, I'd be the first to say so, even if it meant getting fired.

I work at what I love, even though it's financially not very much. Sometimes I think it might've been nice to have a job with regular hours and a paycheck, but I don't regret my decision.

Basically, I'm a one-woman business.

Meredithbead,

You are already doing what you love -- at least it sounds that way. I don't want to give the impression I was truly unhappy in my 1st career -- far from it, it was exciting. I learned how to work within a large organization. But the day came when I realized it was all too hectic and my health was suffering from it. And since I'd started work so early, I was able to opt out.
I think it is wonderful that you've found something creative to do.

Judy

Meredithbead

My friend and I went to the BeadFest in Philadelphia last month-- so many beads so little time.

One of the "hobbies" I am exploring after retiring is jewelry making. It is fun and I love making pretty things to wear. This is one of the freedoms I prize in being retired- having the time to try new things.

I went to your web site- your jewelry is beautiful. I love swarorski (sp) beads. Once visited their factory in Europe.

Kathy

I have a question for the nine. If you could give young gals entering the business world as college grads one piece of advice, what would it be?

Dotsie,

I can tell you what I tell my own daughters. I tell them to stay above the fray. When a battle takes place, go for the high road, that is, support the good goals of whatever organization you are working for. Don't argue at the "people" level. There's other times for that. Your bosses and work associates will think more highly of yopu, and you'll stay out of trouble.

Judy

Dotsie,

I found that answering your question took a lot more thought now than it would have when I was working.

1.) You're better than you think you are.
2.) Think with your head, and make sure you look at things from all points of view
3.) Don't borrow trouble

Carol

What examples have you seen of corporate gossip and how does one go about stopping it?

Dianne,

Actually, corporate gossip can sometimes be useful. One time I heard from several people that my boss was going to be fired. He and I got along fairly well even though I didn’t always agree with what he did. I told him about the gossip I’d heard. “That’s possible, Judy,” he said. “But no one has told me about it.” At Christmastime parties that year I heard the gossip again. But at our last meeting for the year as we summed up what we’d done, my boss turned and whispered to me, “See Judy, I didn’t get fired after all.” It was a month later when I went out to my car, got in, turned the motor on, and heard my cell phone ring. It was my boss calling me to say to not bother coming to the meeting that morning. I’d been right. He’d been fired. For me, it turned out to be good I’d been prepared for that event. I hadn’t assumed it would happen, but I made sure I was OK if it did. And I also prepared my boss.

Judy

Diane

I think it's hard to give a generic response to the question of corporate gossip because the gossip can take so many forms. I've seen people deliberately start false rumors about someone else. I challenged someone on this when I saw him doing it and his reply was "Sure. If I say something to make the other guy look bad, it will only make me look better in comparison." This kind of situation, I say, take head on and succintly point out why the individual is wrong. And, I recommend doing it privatly first, and then publically but politely if the gossip presists.

I'll say more later. My gradson is getting fussy and he's fighting me for the mouse.

Carol k

Dianne

I apologize for leaving out the second n in your name in my last message. I didn't proof read the message before I posted it.

Another kind of gossip is about one's personal life. I wasn't really into the gossip circle, so that may have had an impact, because most of what I heard was true. The most memorable situation was when a female sales director became pregnant and she wasn't married. She was responsible for a multi-billion dollar territory. She had twins and returned from maternity leave. She was very upfront about the situation, except for identifying the father. Her career seemed to continue to go well. Then she had a second pregnancy and after her third son was born, she left the company. I have no idea if she was asked to leave. There was no gossip that she was. But, she handled herself like a lady over the three year period. She acknowledged the situation and mantained her dignity.

Nothing happened to the person who was said to be the father. He continued to stay married and he continued to be promoted. He did have a break down at work, but it was publically attributed to the stress of the job.

Most of us have done something, although not as radical as this, that we wouldn't want people to gossip about. But if they do, and it's true, there's not much you can do except carry on with dignity. If it's not true, then I think you should go out of your way to demonstrate via your actions that it couldn't be true. For example, say the gossip is that you stole a pencil. Make a point of borrowing pencils and immediately return them with thanks. Then mention it later:"Sue was so nice. She let me borrow her pencil. I told her how appreciative I was when I returned it at the end of the meeting."

Another kind of gossip is about your career. If someone is saying bad things about you to make you look bad, then we're back to the first situation I mentioned in the first message on this topic. Confront them privately, if they don't stop, make the corrections publically in a positive manner. The key here is to not get angry, be firm, be polite, and a little humor always helps. If the gossip is true, mantain your dignity and work on changing the impression the gossip has created. Suppose you got demoted. Ok, you got demoted. Don't bring it up in conversations unless someone asks. Most important, don't let it color your picture of yourself and work extra hard to demonstrate your competence in your new job. If it's not true, demostrate that it's not through your actions.

Hope this makes sense. I'd be interested to hear if it does.

Carol K

Thanks. It does make sense. I've seen a lot of inner damage done by gossip and it seems impossible to stop it. I've always wondered about the people who send anonymous letters to the pres. or CEO. It has always reminded me of high school.

Carol, you mention the guy having a break down due to pressure at work. Let's not think for a minute that the pressure from his personal life didn't have soemthing to do with it too.

You also mentioned confronting themprivately. This is such good advice. I believe this is true for any situation, not just professionally. As momw ould have said, "go right to the horse's mouth."

Hi All,

First, I wanted to compliment Carol on the nice job she did on responding to the question about corporate gossip. It’s a tough one. But here’s a favorite maxim of mine. DON’T LET PROBLEMS FESTER. There are too many times in my career that I just felt I was too busy to deal with a problem and waited until it hit me in the face. One time, however, I did something that saved my career. My boss had come up with a new scheme of management. He called it “matrix management” and what it meant was that people didn’t report to any one person, they reported to multiple people. So-o-o some people got very good at never being accountable for anything. They always just switched which boss they paid attention to at the appropriate time. For me, this meant that I couldn’t count on anyone to meet their commitments. Another department head in my area had made a commitment he couldn’t possibly meet and he just kept leaning on people harder and harder – like they had no life outside of work. I think it was the only time at work I felt truly frightened. So I wrote the “Cover Your Ass” letter. I told my boss and my boss’ boss what was happening and that I couldn’t meet my commitments if we continued the matrix management approach. They didn’t get angry because I sent the letter only to them. But when our area got in such trouble that a special task force was set up to look into the situation, I pulled out my letter. Out of four managers I was the only one who didn’t lose my job or get demoted. But I did get put into another job I didn’t want. It took a long time to recover. After that, I always told my managers to look around and watch for problems, to not be hasty, but to speak up or record their concerns when they saw a significant problem.
Any other examples of this sort of thing?

Judy

Dianne,

I've been thinking about your comment about gossip seeming like high school. I think you're right. There are a lot of people who never grow past that stage. Annonymus, untrue words seem evil to me. The only good news is that when I got annonymus tips, comments or letters, I always ignored them. I think that most people do.

Carol

Judy-
I hope now to answer a question you had for me on page 2, I believe. You asked what I had done through my career and how I ended up where I am.

Since it took 30 years to get here, I will summarize.

My husband and I owned a large, traditional wooden sailing ship. We took people on week long vacations, made movies, commercials, sail training for the girls scouts and boy scouts, participated in the Mariel boatlift. Just about anything that was legal to keep the business afloat (no pun intended). We did this for 10 years. It was an expereience that I would not trade for the world. We had a crew of 7 and when we went to sea for extended periods we preferred a crew of twelve+. Not that we always got them. Many times some were unpaid, they got the sea experience and we got the muscle. Maintain an historic sailing ship, an income flow and a full time crew was a lot of work. My insights and imagination in the workplace come mainly from my skills that were developed under some unbelievable hardships but through that came the creativity to survive. Literally and figuratively.

After we sold the schooner, some time was taken to get adjusted to land again. My next big career move was with a private residential school for juvenile delinquents. It was a wonderful campus setting for chronic deep end offenders from the region in which I live. I worked in this field for the next 20 years and worked liked it was my own business because I did not know any better.

The juvenile justice field is very cut throat and lucrative. It is as big a rat race as the big 500 but nobody really wants to call that out because we are talking about rehabilitating juveniles and that does not sit well with making big money.

Both of these environments were male dominated. But they were vastly different in how they treated women. I learned to "hang" aboard ship so I understood what was going on in the delinquent field. It gave me an edge. I became very valuable throughout the industry and would have been in demand if I wanted to stay and did not sign the contract (non-compete)upon my resignation.

I wanted something different but education based. I was appalled at grown men who had their lips firmly placed upon another man's rear end and both of them enjoying it but acting like it was not happening. Makes my stomach roll. It was all for money and status.

I now work for a state agency that serves the public and private education system in PA. I am in the business end, using my organizational skills. I have great retirement and benefits.

Since I have only been there one month I am still observing and assessing. This conversation has been immensely helpful to me in gathering my thoughts. The timing has been perfect. I work with males and females that appear to get along. The mission of the organization is wholesome and abided. So far, I see an organization that nurtures its people, definetly educates them and tries to go win-win. I hope this view continues.

I am too new to know about the gossip chain but the gossipers will find me I'm sure.

I agree with you that you must speak up with honesty and integrity before things get out of hand. I also believe when you speak it is best to suggest a solution or remedy that can be thrown out but at least it begins discussion on the positive aspect rather than dwelling on the problem.

So sorry for such a long post and possibly derailing the flow here but I did want to answer your question. Thanks for listening.

Lynn

Lynn,

Just wanted to say -- what a wonderful response! I need to think about it and get back to you when I'm more awake. It has been a long day. The only thing I'll say now is that sailing was once a big part of my life. Not business, but family. Unfortunately, it got out of hand. My first husband wanted bigger and bigger boats. And we continued to throw money in those "holes in the water." Money was the biggest prolem in our life even though we had two careers. I should have left him, but he left me to go live by the water. And that's where he is today. He told me when he left that the statistics were that a woman my age would almost never remarry. (I was 48 years old). But he forgot that I didn't worry about "almosts." I remarried before he did and to the wonderful man that is my husband today.
I was determined!!! Said more than I intended, but your talk about the schooner was so interesting. Thank you for that story.

Judy

Lynn,

I just wanted to add that it seems to me that you have done the right thing. It's always gutsy to make a move. Good for you!

Judy

Lynn has lots of stories about life aboard that ship in the professional forum from a couple years ago. They're gripping!

Margaret's story talks about how she is her father's daughter. For those women in the business world...do you believe you got your nuts and bolts, guts for the business world from your mom or dad? If it was your mom, was she professionally employed when you were a child?

Good question, Dotsie. You made me think. My mother didn't work except for a short stint as secretary to a local broker. My dad was a travelling salesman, selling Pillsbury flour to stores in Pennsylvania and West Virginia. He never talked about his work. But I have a brother, six years older, and he first taught me how to get into a college on a scholarship, then how to not lose my scholarship (he'd lost his -- so he knew), then how to get along with guys when I dated, then how to do things right in the work world. I remember he once told me, "Keep your technical integrity." I knew right away what he meant. Some of the guys would exaggerate things to make a point or get ahead.
I did my best to learn from him.

Judy

Dotsie

Interesting question.

It clearly was my father who was my role model in business. It wasn't intentional, but in the seventies when I started working, all the managers and executives were men and many were my father's age, so unconsciously I looked to my Dad. He was a career military man, who worked in the space program after he retired from the Air Force. His lessons were about being smart, tough, fighting for what you believe in and being ethical. He often tried to rid me of my idealism.

When I look back, it was my father who guided my business life, and now that I have retired, I can now emulate my mother, who was kind, supportive, loving and fair minded. It is hard to suppress my tough, aggressive Dad, but every day I relish the chance to be more like my mother, after being like my father for 30 plus years.

Kathy

Hi All,

Here's something I found online today that is very interesting.

Talbots Women's Scholarship Fund, a program of the Talbots Charitable Foundation, will award $100,000 in scholarships to women determined to finally get that college degree.
Five women will each be awarded $10,000 scholarships, and 50 women will each be awarded $1,000 scholarships. All applicants must be seeking an undergraduate degree from an accredited two- or four-year college or university, or vocational-technical school. Only applicants seeking a bachelor's degree from a four-year college or university are eligible to receive a $10,000 award. Scholarship awards are based primarily on financial need and previous achievements for women who earned their high school diploma or GED at least 10 years ago.

You can get applications at Talbot Stores. I always wanted to go back to college for a "fun" degree that would nevertheless provide advantages in life.

Judy

Thanks for the info, Judy. I will check out their website as I don't have a Talbot's near me. The closest college to me is an hour away, but if they gave me $10K, that might cover my gas costs!!

I like the spirit of Talbot's. What a great idea.

Back to the Mom/Dad issue. I've read so much about our generation of women. One of the issues that often arises is how our mothers told us to be independent. Never feel like you have to depend on a man for your happiness, and on and on.

In general, I believe many of our mothers felt stuck. They thought they couldn't get out of their marriages if they tried. Therefore, they tried to instill the whole independent issue in their daughters.

Any thoughts? Remember, I am speaking in general terms.

I was never encouraged to get a college degree of any kind. My mother never worked and luckily, she didn't have to because my dad provided nicely but I have always thought how much different her life would have been if she did work. No time to dwell on small, unimportant issues.

I want to add what a really great job you ladies are doing on this forum. I deeply appreciate your wisdom and insight and your willingness to share it here. Thanks!

Dianne,

Thanks for those nice words.

Judy

Dotsie,
Dotsie,

Instilling independence is good. But what I worry about is that young women spend so much time these days achieving independence that they put off maariage until it is very late (sometimes too late) to have children. Read Pam's essay in our book. She is extremely honest about this issue.

Judy

TWO CENTS WORTH:

I think what Dotsie was saying is that women shouldn't think that their self worth is validated by the man in their life. That this man will be responsible for making them happy.

Teaching an independence of the heart and soul will help our children to understand that happiness comes from within and that we ALL have choices available to us.

Independence is a good thing, financially or otherwise. There is nothing that says you can't have it all. My niece works, has two beautiful children, a wonderful husband, and a good solid marriage from all accounts.

But the point I think Dotsie was making is that our Mother's did not have the choices we have today, and the independence she's referring to is not necessarily one of a dollar value, but of learning to NOT settle for less, in a mate, a job, a lifestyle...etc.

We have richer opportunities available to us, and armed with the knowledge, (independence) we can make better choices. Yes? No?

JJ

Hello, All

Lynn, you've lived the life many people dream of -at least those of us raised on Jimmy Buffet and the likes of "Son of a Son of a Sailor Man". I'm sure that the real version is quite different from the imagined one. Congratulations on being so successful in so many areas.

On the impact of mothers, I'd like to share the flip side - my impact on our daughters. I think they plan to live their lives exactly the opposite of how I've lived mine. One's 25 and the other is almost 20. Neither of them appears to be obsessed with getting ahead. My grandfather was an Italian immigrant with ten children when he died in his early 50's because he went to work in the coal mines with pnemonia. He died six months before social security was inacted. My grandmother didn't speak English until the day she died in 1973 at the age of 83. I was 25, and close to her. She warned me not to have too many children. You can believe I selected my major in college based on employability.

Our girls don't think that way. They think work is about having fun. I think work is about constantly challenging yourself to do better, and the fun comes in doing better. Who's right? Go figure.

Carol K

Hi there,
I've browsed through some of the posts in this forum with fascination and definitely will get this book the next time I get to a book store or visit Amazon.
I've been in and out of corporations for about 25 years -- AT&T (Lucent), UPS, IBM, etc. -- as well as being a consultant in the tech world. I never got the rules! LOL!
I became an ardent feminist because of how my father treated my mother and my sister and me. We were continually told we were second class citizens. He was, in his words, "the captain of the ship." My mother worked part time, but never quite got out from under his thumb. They were planning a divorce when she died of the cancer which had wracked her for 10 years.
I have sons. They've struggled. I raised them to think of women as equals -- at least I think I did! Neither of them want anything to do with the corporate world because it made me so miserable and all they saw me do was work.
Great conversation

Casey,

Where were you at AT&T? Always love to have another feminist on board. Though, since you have sons, I assume, like me, you think there are a few really7 good men in this world. I had daughters. But now I'm getting a chance to enjoy grandsons. What a joy!

Judy

Carol-thanks for the kind words. yes, the real Son of a Sailor is quite different.

Actually, that is the topic we are on. My dad was a lifetime Navy man. My Mom a stay at home Mom. She had to be because Dad was traveling the globe for half of my childhood.

My mother always told me "I could do anything I wanted to do" and "Don't get married until you are 27".

I was married at 27, as were my siblings. Just happened that way.

My Mom was a great influence with not settling for anything less and my Dad gave me the itchy feet syndrome. I am part nomad and that drove me to many expereinces which I could draw upon in the work world.

My dad was committed to his employer (and country) for life. I am loyal but not stupid.

I really can't say who influenced me more. They each gave me a bit of their personality and then tried to let me fly. When I flew the coop is when I really began to grow up and maybe that was the greatest gift of all. They taught me how to grow up and then pushed me, and I flew.

I can't answer difinitely Dotsie.

I can say that this work thing is extremely overrated at my age. 6 years ago I felt very different. Today, I have too much to do to work!

Lynn

Judy, I was at AT&T from 1986 to about 1990. (I have this 4-year thing going in my career life -- LOL)

After many bad relationships with men, I finally did the work on myself. Gee, men got better! Or I attracted better men. Or something. :--))

I'm a feminist with the "partnership" and "equality" ideas. I don't think men are bad, just that we tend to socialize them as leaders, "in-charge," have to have all the answers, etc. I have many male friends and they say that all of that can be exhausting after a while.

However, in the corporate world, I think it's difficult for them to give up that power. And to compete, many women adopt the "hierarchical" power mode. It's all part of those unwritten corporate rules. And if you don't comply, watch out!

I think my caution around corporations began when my father, an RCA company man, was laid off around the age of 56 or so. He was devistated. I was in college and my mom was ill with cancer. Somehow he managed to get through all of that and remarried, but he was never happy. Ultimately, he committed suicide. I don't think the corporation was to blame for that, he was never a happy man. But I think the construct in which we raise our male children can leave them with fewer options than we might like.

Sorry for the long-windedness!

Casey, You have given us much to think about.

Lynn

Casey,
What an incredible story. Mine wasn't quite as difficult. But my father got laid off by the the Pillsbury Company at about the same age. In other words, before they had to pay him a retirement. He worked as a shoe store salesman and a furniture store salesman after that. The whole thing made me so angry and I was determined that no company would ever do that to me. So I did leave Lucent before they got rid of me.

But the bottom line is that we have to watch and learn and take care of ourselves. I'm glad to hear that you have done that. Be proud! Take care of yourself!

Judy

Casey

Wow, what a story. I wish I had been as aware as you were. It took me a long time to get to your endpoint.

I am so sorry about your father's suicide, that must have been devastating.

My father also worked for RCA, had 5 heart attacks by 52 and retired. Your "retirement is a second chance for a first dream" worked for him- he retired to Florida, played golf every day and lived till he was 81.

It took me longer as he did to get to retirement (55 Years old) but the idea of retirement being a second chance for a first dream is such a nice idea.

Kathy

This brought to mind my girlfriend who was very close to her grandmother, who raised eight children. She told my friend to never get married and have children until she was much older. She encouraged her to seek a different kind of life...something exciting.

So, she applied for and got a very interesting job: Playboy Bunny! Does she ever have stories to tell.

<chuckle> Playboy Bunny! How cool -- I think :--)) But those heels!

I was recently laid off from IBM. It was a mutual decision in reality since I had told them I was planning on moving to 1/2 days and then retiring by the end of the year. I just couldn't do the corporate thing any more. Well, actually, I'd never done it well, but I couldn't even pretend anymore! And as for learning any more new technology - yick!!! LOL!

But so many companies continue to down-size, move work overseas, reneg on pensions, etc. How is that going to shape our generation as we move towards retirement, whatever its shape? In spite of the lawsuits, we're not going to change multi-national corporations and how they do business since the primary aim for much of them is the shareholder price.

How do we expand on the wisdom of this book, that there is a life that is possible and different from what there was before?

Casey

It sounds like you've grown a lot, and given much thought to what kind of person you want to be. Would you be willing to share more?

Carol K.

Hi

I've been thinking a little more about this issue of , male or female, losing you job in your 50"s. I've come to the conclusion that it's a spoken or unspoken goal of corporations. When I really thought about it, I knew quite a few people that this happened to -going all the way back to my maternal great grandfather who was let go from the mines when he was in his fifties. Based on the people I know, it's pervasive across industries and sizes of business. My cousin worked as a book keeper for a small business and she was let go because she knew too much about the books. My friend worked for a small manufacturer who was infamous for forcing people out when they reached their ten year threshold. She started to work there in her forties and was let go in her fifties. (Maybe she doesn't count as much, but it does give insight into how companies may think.)

Anyway, I won't bore you with all my other examples. I'm sure you've experienced fairly close to the same thing.

Carol K

Hi

I won't be able to access the forum for a few days, so I wanted to wish you all a happy holiday season. Stay safe, warm, and sane and enjoy your days.

Carol

Thanks and you do the same!

How about we get back to the topic of daughters, or women from the younger generations. What advice would you give a gal who wants to move away from her family and friend right out of college to work her dream job at a rate that will barely cover expenses?

OK. Sounds good. I would probably ask a lot of questions and do a lot of listening. Some of the things that come to mind are:
How independent is this girl? Does she make friends easily or is her support system of family and friends necessary for her good health -- both physical and mental?
What will the dream job provide? Scratch an itch? Tell her whether or not it's the right one for her? Provide a building block for a future life?
Is money important to her? Is she high maintenance? How will the lack of money affect her? Is she good at money maintenance or will she get into debt easily? Or maybe she doesn't care?
And finally, is she going to a job or running away from something else?

Casey, Dotsie et al

I don't know that I can give advice on this specific topic, but I can share that one of the things NineWomen talked about was our need to succeed and how it sometimes drove conservative behaviour. Many of us feel that we wished we had been willing to take more risks. This is one of the reasons we encourage each other to do things outside our comfort zones now and to approach life with a sense of adventure.

Have a nice Thanksgiving.

Kathy

Dotsie,

Your question about the young woman is a difficult one. I was devastated when my younger daughter dropped out of college for a semester to work at a place called the Frontier Nursing Home in Hyden (I think) Kentucky. All she got was room and oard. She helped an old lady learn to read and a blind woman learn to dress and take care of herself. I couldn't figure out what she was doing. But she was growing up and getting a better understanding of the world after always having it easy. After that, she finished college, went out to New mexico and taught Navajo High School childrfen and helped them get into college, then taught young Pueblo school children how to write poetry. She lived on a shoestring, and now is married, having a baby, and responsible for the new literacy program in a school in Boulder, Colo.

Dotsie,

Your question about the young woman is a difficult one. I was devastated when my younger daughter dropped out of college for a semester to work at a place called the Frontier Nursing Home in Hyden (I think) Kentucky. All she got was room and oard. She helped an old lady learn to read and a blind woman learn to dress and take care of herself. I couldn't figure out what she was doing. But she was growing up and getting a better understanding of the world after always having it easy. After that, she finished college, went out to New Mexico and taught Navajo High School children and helped them get into college, then taught young Pueblo school children how to write poetry. She lived on a shoestring, and now is married, having a baby, and responsible for the new literacy program in a school in Boulder, Colo.

I have no idea why my message got posted 3 times. Sorry!

Judy

You must be very proud of your daughter.

Her example does prove to me that we all find our own way of getting to our goal. And somehow we are guided to "do what we need at the time" to get to that goal.

Your daughter sounds very in tune with herself.

This talk about women int he workforce is very interesting and very ironic for me. I have worked in male dominated fields my entire life and now I work with lots of women. I report to a man (which is really a comfort zone thing for me now). I am having to adjust to all the women.

And there are some down sides to working with women. They hang on to stuff forever! Men argue, yell whatever and then get over it. That is refreshing in comparison. So I am relearning some group dynamics.

I think the best advice for a young woman starting out is to get comfortable in her own skin. To be her own person. I don't mean dress crazy. The goal should be to mature and develop confidence in yourself. This will push you farther than any advice about gossip etc.

Judy's daughter is a perfect example. She needed to get confident with herself and I suppose that included some life experience.

Life expereince can not be taught and I have always been provided opportunity based on it =rather than a degree or achievement.

My 5 cents.

Lynn

I'm going to change the movement of the topic for a moment.

My husband is a turn around guy. He's the one that goes into a large company and although he doesn't do the firing, he tells different departments how much they have to cut back or get rid of.

He literally gets physically ill while this process is going on. He's there to save a company but the thought that people are losing their paycheck and job really hurts him a lot. He's not that well loved either. It's an ugly job, actually.

I wonder if any of you gals have any comments on this.

Dianne

I am sure his talents are immense. I understand what it takes to change a coprporations' organizational systems. An "audit" of this nature can be a life saver.

But if your husband gets ill over it, I think he should find a positive vehicle for his talents. No one should feel that way about their work. Easy to say, hard to do. Man or woman, we must feel good about what we do and it sounds like his job is not in congruence with his personality.

Many corporations simply want an outside Perfoirmance auditor, then they leave and the company decides what to do with the information. By that time, your husband would be long gone and not even know if the information was heeded. So he does not have to feel responsible for other people's lives.

Lynn

Corporations seem to need this shake up periodically, although I'm not sure it really helps. I view it like pruning a bush. If it's done correctly, it can improve the core life of the plant, or in this case, company. It actually can save jobs because if it isn't done, the corporation can go down the tubes totally.

However, pruning doesn't change the nature of the plant -- a rose is still a rose. So many corporations go through this process and don't change the underlying problems, or corporate culture that got them there. So eventually, they go through it again.

I agree with Lynn. If it makes your husband ill, he needs to find something positive to do with his talents. I recommend the book, "Now What?" by Laura Bernam Fortgang to my clients going through this type of questioning process.

He never goes into a company unless it's already in bankruptcy.

It's only during that firing stage that it bothers him. The rest of the time, he's fine with it. He loves his job.

Dianne

I think your husband is lucky if he loves his job. He must be good at it. Without his talent and effort, everyone who worked for the bankrupt company might not have a job.

I'm sure that both of you say that to yourselves when some people do lose their jobs.

Carol K

He went into one company that the former president had stolen over 500 million! Although he had put some of that stolen money into the community, the bankruptcy took small businesses down. The people in the town said, "We liked it much better when ****** was running the company." They could never see how much damage he had done. He got 20 years for his "community help."

Ladies, this is our last day for this topic. Please speak up if you have any other issues you want to discuss.

Because my area of the country has an agrcultural and energy economy, the great Depression didn't affect us as much as the oilbust of the early eighties. I owned a personnel agency during that terrible time.

I saw so many men who were simply devastated by the sudden loss of employment. There were no new jobs so I just listened while they talked. Eventually informal groups formed and met in my office. I began to write down what the men said. It became clear that they all went through the classic stages of grief.

Job loss was much less traumatic for women and several men outside my groups committed suicide though I never heard of any women doing so.

After a while some of the employers began meeting in my office also and I was surprised to discover they were going through a similar grief reaction. There were a few suicides among employers also though none in my groups.

I removed all the identifying information and took my records to a local university where I worked with psychologists and psychiatrists to develop a protocol for treating people who are suddenly unemployed or causing others to be.

We never came up with anything specific and there was almost nothing in the medical literature. It seems that someone should study that issue and develop methods of dealing with it, but the psychiatrists who were all men seemed almost afraid of it.

It was an interesting time.

smile

I found out that the man who laid me off, and 11 others who were six months shy of retirement as well, got an award for streamlining the company. The irony of it all is that in the same Company newsletter where he had his pic and award ceremony, was an article about me with a picture as well, and my accomplishments, and my book. He is also the one who told me the day he laid me off, "I feel your pain." Uh huh...sure. I could probably live a year off the bonus award he got.

JJ

As a person who has had to lay people off, I can promise you it hurts. Probably not as badly as being laid off, but laying people off does hurt.

Sometimes companies have to be streamlined to survive and the person who delivers the news goes over what he will say to each person in his mind for weeks then he does it and tries to make it painless, but there is no way, and it remains a painful memory for months.

JJ, I understand what you are saying, and I'm sure that being laid off is worse, but laying people off does hurt too. The only way I could do it was to focus on those whose job survived because I cut other jobs.

Only because I had that personnel agency did I come to understand that it's a hard thing for everyone. And it's something to bear in mind when applying for a job where lay offs have occurred as well. Employers will do just about anything to avoid it.

smile

Smiles, one thing I enjoy about you is your perspective and keen eye for showing and helping others to understand that there is always two sides to everything. I couldn't agree more. In my case, I want to add that the same man who laid me off, could have laid off another NEW person who made half of what I did, and he knows, I know, because I was their "money" person. However, in streamlining, you cut from the top. In other words, the people who make the most moola... which was unfortunately, ME in this case.

Being a business person, I totally understand this type of action and what it does for the health of the company. However, and take it from someone who ONLY MEANS of support was this job (at the time), saying, "I feel your pain" when he doesn't... and he knows it, and I know it, was an insult and added to the injury. Its never happened to him, he's never walked in my shoes, so how could he? It would be like a man telling me he knew what it was like giving birth. Don't think so.

Everyone tells you not to take it personally but when it happens to you, human nature takes over and you do. Regardless. However, what you do AFTERWARDS is the important thing.

I chose to put my big girl panties on and deal with it, see it for what it was and move on. Turns out it was a blessing in disguise, and an answer to my long time running prayer, "God, will you help me get into position to write full time?" Well, guess what? He did. As I told a good friend, just today, I just wish HE had sent along a little extra moola in the process...

So yes, I'm sure there is some remorse and angst for the person who lays people off, I'm sure of it. And I think it is what it is... a business decision.

I hold no grudge, or even think about it unless something like this post comes up. And I hope if nothing else, someone will read this and know that what you do afterwards is what's really important. Move on... and upward!

JJ

[ November 30, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: jawjaw ]

Cow's tail here checking in after months of being away.

As long as women know their places and stay there, glass ceilings don't exist.

It's a joke, 'kay? Although not a very funny one.

I, for one, am VERY, VERY, VERY happy to have left the corporate world behind as well as the manure for brains men I had to work and deal with.

Corporate America, in my not so humble opinion, is a major rape job and the victim is the family. I hated and detested working for men, and women too I'm sorry to report, who felt that more hours, more work, more production, more blood and sweat but, God Forbid No Tears, was what was demanded. And "if you couldn't do it, well then...maybe you should just find something else you could handle".

As an aside, I hope *that* particular man's daughter has had, in spades, what her daddy handed out to me for years. I hope everytime she goes home she has war stories to tell him that make him quiver in his polyester suits.

Yep, I work harder and get physically pushed around a lot more now...but I'm my own boss. If I get pushed around by one of my horses, I can take a riding crop to him/her...which doesn't happen often, btw. My animals are treated better than a lot of humans in this country and the animals reward me by behaving well and respectfully. If a horse steps on me and I want to cry...I'll have a good cry then wipe my tears on their manes.

I live by the rhythms of the earth...up with the light and to bed with the dark. It's a wonderful thing to lie in a cozy, warm bed with my knitting or a good book or just my thoughts and prayers before drifing into a restful, peaceful sleep. I actually think I became ill in late Aug/early Sep because my, natural to me, rhythms were totally skewed. I was working too hard at off the farm projects, not eating correctly, not drinking enough water, not living "right" and my body let me know it was *not* happy.

I'm grateful for my experiences, my jobs and my bosses...even the losers. I'm the person I am today because of the life I've lived, the jobs I've had and the people for whom I've worked. It took me a long time to realize that I didn't have to buy into everything the feminist movement was selling. It took me a long time to realize I could be "me", basically a good person and practicing Christian, and still be a loving, productive member of society with a lot to give without trashing people in the process.

When the time came for guts to leave the corporate workplace...I was more than ready. I left more than ten years ago and have never, ever looked back. I talk to my female friends who are still in corporate America and their stories curl my hair. I don't envy them, not one little bit. There are legions of women who have left the corporate workplace and we're managing just fine, thank you very much.

It's the journey *and* the hope of a destination that makes us who we are and allows us to become who we want to become. It's knowing money is a tool and it doesn't own us, we own it. It's knowing we can help someone else along the way and not lose any of ourselves in the process. It's knowing that if we lose ourselves, even a little piece of ourselves, then we've done ourselves, as well as the rest of humankind, a great disservice.

ahem.

sorry about the tirade and I'll slink down off my soap box now.

thank you for letting me vent.

Hi

Thanks to all of you for your participation in this forum. I've enjoyed every minute of reading and writing. I've learned a lot. This last discussion on being let go really hit home for me, since it happened to me. While intellectually I accepted it, it was really tough to accept it emotionally. I think I'm just now really starting to heel.

Carol K

I appreciate all the authors who answered the many questions on this thread. Great advice and wonderful compassion. Thank you.

JJ, my husband received a huge bonus when he finally got the company out of bankruptcy and got it sold. I understand how you feel though.

Coming in, he was promised this bonus, it was the only way he'd accept the job. Mostly, it was middle management that was let go. And, there was a lot of resentment too but this is what he does for a living. I can honestly say that no person who brought in the money was fired tho. So, I can understand how you feel about being let go. I think it sucks.

I'd like to quote Whitney M. Young, Jr. a Civil rights leader here:

The hardest work in the world is being out of work...

Thanks to everyone who chose to get involved with this month's discussion. This will remain on the site forever so feel free to bring the topic up again if need be. Thanks to our Nine Women who so kindly opened their hearts and minds to all of us. If you have not yet done so, please order their book. You'll feel like you've made nine new friends when you are finished reading.