"When our own hands, feet, eyes, hearts, or minds aren't working at full throttle, God provides others who can help
us walk, see, and think."


Debra Farrington, The Seasons of a Restless Heart

That has pretty much been the story of my life, Dotsie. It's safe to say that I wouldn't be here today if not for the kindness, generosity and mentorship of so many throughout my journey, right from early childhood to present-day. It's amazing and wondrous, how just the right person walks into my life at the exact right moment, if not in person, then through online, a book or music. He really does care enough to send the best!

I heard someone say the other day, "oh, there ain't no such thing as God." I have heard that same stupid comment before and it still makes my stomach hurt. All anyone has to do is look into the night sky or at the flowers in a garden or into a sweet newborn babies face to know there most certainly IS a God...

Chat, I have always wanted to ask those folks who say such things as to where they find hope in times of personal crisis. For those of us who have faith, we call on God. For those who do not, who do they rely upon...especially when self has done all self could? Where does one without faith find relief beyond self?

Lola, this sort of reminds me of a something from the late 1970's. I cannot remember the "why", but one morning I was angry with God and told Him that, and told Him I wasn't going to talk with Him that day (I was young & silly). Went through the whole day, diligently ignoring Him. Then I was walking home and the sky was on fire with the most beautiful, amazing sunset I had ever seen in my life thus far. I had to laugh and tell Him how unfair it was for Him to paint the sky like that, knowing it would be impossible for me not to thank Him for it...and I remember thinking, who do people, who don't believe in God, thank for things like sunsets and cardinals and newborn babies and the miracles of life that surround them?

Even those who do not believe in God are grateful for the same, Eagle. They just tend to see it as a natural and scientific narrative rather than attributable to God's design.

I'm attending a debate event in Berkshire against reportedly atheists (Richard Dawkins and a Professor of Philosophy) later this month. I'll let you know whether they truly are.

Lola, I look forward to hearing more.

People, believers included, have a way of justifying their/our own belief/non-belief systems. I find it interesting.

I know for certain there is a God. Or else how could I explain events and circumstances always falling into place? Even the most impossible becomes possible at exactly the right time.

Thanks for this Dotsie!

Lola, may God lead, guide and direct you in this debate...I can't wait to hear about it!

Cheers and Blessings,
Cathi

My father always said patients who believed in God, died peacefully, compared to those that didn't believe. They often died with fear. Probably Anne and LadyJane can add to this observation.

Believing in God gives us peace of mind. And that peace of mind is his gift to us. Those who don't believe, refuse to accept this gift. I guess it's sort of like wanting to help a child, who refuses your help. Then he has to simply learn the hard way.

I would love to listen to the debate, Lola. Please do share with us how it goes.

I will be attending the debate as an Apologist, not a party to the debate. The Bishop of Oxford and a prominent journalist will be against Dawkins and the Professor, although the attendees would have a chance to field questions. And, I intend to raise a few. Incidentally, the topic for the debate goes in the way of: "Atheism is the New Fundamentalism". The topic is quite apt as the European Court recently ruled that crucifixes/crosses in Italian classrooms would be a delict on the children of the secularist parent. How very bizarre but, it's under appeal by Italy. Secularism is the new atheism in Europe and is quite the protagonist against faith communities.

God works in funny ways. I had a rough night and morning, cold coming on, dentist appointment, hubby in the Caribbean (most assuredly surrounded by beautiful nubile bikini-clad bodies bathing in the sun), etc, etc. Anyway, I was sitting in the dentist's waiting room, watching people passing by the doorway (the office is in a mall). It was actually funny how many guys passed that door who looked like my brother Gary...I mean, really looked a lot like him, from whatever side was facing me as they passed by. Finally after about the 15th look-alike walked by, I just laughed and asked God what He was up to, and He answered, "We just want you to remember that you're never alone, that We are all with you, watching over you." A tender consolation indeed.

Then my dental hygienist (whom I've known for about 13 years) noticed my heavy heart right away and asked what was going on, so I told her about Basil (my friend bedridden with ALS) and hubby down south without me. She gave me a big hug, and then made me vocalize all the GOOD things about having the house to myself...we ended up laughing as the list kept growing.

I came out of there feeling so much lighter and positive. God really does bring the right people into our lives at the right time, if only we have eyes to see and the faith to believe it's Him at work, or in this case, at play!

Amen - we have to have our eyes open, and I believe that when we are tuned into God's station, we are forever surprised by the many ways he speaks to us each day. The trick is tuning in.

Glad to hear your eyes and ears were open today.

I like that, Dotsie -- tuned into God's station! Clever! And I agree, God does speak to us each day. It's astounding to try to grasp that. I've enjoyed all the above comments. Bless you all!
Linda Thomas

And bless you too.

Just back from Berkshire. The result of the debate on "Atheism is the New Fundamentalism" was roughly (they were still trying to tally when we set out to depart for London):

4% For
95% Against
1% Undecided

Parting words for tonight from a colleague was from a quotation about atheism:

"The belief that there was nothing, and nothing happened to nothing. And then, nothing magically exploded for no reason creating everything. And then, a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits...which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense."

Boy, do I have a headache!

Thank you Lola, I am going to save the quote and the stats. Wow, it pretty much sums all explanation in a nutshell!

Cheers,
Cathi

Lola, that's too funny!

And, a summation of the argument for the existence of God::

1. He is first motion. Everything that is moving is moved by a mover. An infinite regress of movers is impossible. Therefore, there is an unmoved mover from whom all motions proceeds. This is God.

2. He is first cause. Everything that is caused is caused by something else. An infinite regress of causation is impossible. Therefore, there must be an uncaused cause of all that is caused. This is God.

3. He is first being. Everything of this universe has a transitory nature in which they exist and then fail to exist. Since it is impossible for these things always to exist, then it indicates a time when they did not exist. If there are things which are transitory then, at one time, there could have been nothing in existence. If there was a time that there was nothing, then that nothing could not have brought anything to existence. As shown by first cause, everything is contingent on a creator because there must be a necessary being whose existence is not dependent on anything. This is God.

4. He is the standard of perfection. Everything has a varying degree of perfection. Each assumes towards an existing ultimate standard of perfection by the creator. Therefore, perfection has a summit. This is God.

5. He is first design. Everything natural in the world acts towards a purpose and an end where an intelligent being guides all natural bodies towards that purpose and end. This is God.

- St Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologica -

I posted this before for laughs but it seems appropriate here as well:


God is sitting in Heaven when a scientist says to Him.

"God, we don't need you anymore. Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing. In other words, we can now do what You did in the beginning."

"Oh, is that soooooo? Tell Me...", replies God.

"Well," says the scientist, "we can take dirt and form it into the likeness of You and breath life into it, thus creating man."

"Well, that's very interesting...show Me.", said God.

So, the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil into the shape of a man.

"No, no, no..." interrupts God, "Make your own dirt".

Funny but while reading this DIRT was the first thing that entered my mind...very funny.

The threat of atheism is actually very real in Europe. It goes under the guise of secularism. A particular decision of the European Court on an Italian matter is already proof of that. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/03/italy-classroom-crucifixes-human-rights

There is also pending legislation in the European Court where an individual or institution, in the exercise of faith and conscience, will no longer be able to opt out. And, this particular case will challenge that.
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=34910
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/ch....case/24772.htm

Whilst it is the Christian communities which is at the forefront of the debates over here, the challenge posed by secularism confronts all faith communities. And, when the dust settles, there is really one question that remains to be considered: "Who do we answer to in the end?"

Here's a starter link to the debate...it's broken down into 14 parts. So, if interest beckons further, just follow through with the rest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_3d0q1LDa0

"Hellish weather."..hahaha...

"The new atheism...the new fundamentalism. Interesting. Nothing allows to count against it." The priest held an excellent speech.
"What would happen to focus away on the creation God?" Good question."

I'll be watching the rest of the series. Thanks so much for posting this, Lola.

Well, Anne, I guess, so much for my theory...or my father's theory. It's never good to generalize anyway. I suppose if you have unfinished business it's harder to go, or if you have a guilty conscience; that may make you fearfull. Whatever. I chose to believe in God, and believe peace is on the other side. Amen to that.

I live in Sweden. I know quite a few people that don´t believe in God..actually..most of my friends are not believers in God. And are definitely not church goers. My partner does not believe in a god. He lives by a simple creed, you could say..not to hurt his fellow human beings or anything living, for that matter..He decided when he was around 20 yrs old that he wanted to spend his life here on earth..happy..as much as he can. My youngest adult child made a similar decision when he was about 16 or 17. He will 20 on Christmas Day and he expanded his decision by adding that he wants to spread happiness as much as he can. My son is a very social type of being where as my partner is more quiet and I suppose introvert. My partner and my son didn´t know about their similar decisions when they made them. My partner, who is now 36 yrs old..made his quite a while ago now. (my partner is not the father of any of my children).

I am not trying to refute anything anyone has written on this thread..I think that one´s beliefs are so personal and mean so much. But I did want to enter my thoughts here...

Personally..I don´t know what I believe right now. I was a Catholic while growing up. Then a New Churchwoman(a church based on Emanuel Swedenborg´s writings). And now I am where I am..reading alot..tending towards Buddhistic thought, I suppose. I am ok with the thought that there perhaps is no God..or even an afterlife..and that this may be all there is..that which we have here. But I am not sure of anything right now..and maybe I never will be again..I don´t know..we´ll see. I lost a daughter when she was 11 yrs old..she would be 39 on Dec 19th. She´s with me..within me..always. I know that..If there is no afterlife..that´s ok now,too. But it would have been difficult when she died. I believed then..and yes..it helped then. I have experienced losses now too..and it´s ok where I "am" right now.

I believe that a higher being brings so many comfort, strength, love, direction.....

However, I do not believe in an entity such as one god. The idea that there is One way to believe and live is beyond my comprehension. From what I have been privy too, each religion believes they are the one correct religion. That belief is just too small for me.

Like Humlan, I don't know what I believe. I do believe in science, but I also believe in unproven truths. For example, I believe that if you see the good in everyone and everything, you will live a happier life; if you live in negative energy, you will receive negative energy in return. All the new age jazz, I suppose, is where my leanings tend to go.

I am comfortable with anyone's beliefs, as long as they are uplifting and positive. I have recently attended 3 memorial services for people I love, and I was joyously singing the Christian hymns. I received the prayers and readings from the bible without any problem. It is not the path that I have chosen to take, but I will embrace the beliefs that others choose to select.

Lola asked (I am too lazy to go find the quote, so this is a general interpretation) what non believers go to when life gets tough. I go to you. I go to my inner peace. I go to the energy fields around me that bring me solace. I go to love of who and what surrounds me.

I speak from the heart.

Anno, I go to the same places that you do. And also, my beloved music. Eventho lately it´s been more quiet here at home because I am trying to be with my inner peace,too. Now it´s Christmas time..so the Christmas music will soon be sounding gentle thru our home,too. I love it so much.

Anne, I have gone into to Churches often..for peace and quiet. And I take in the "feeling there". They are very beautiful and if you go when they are empty..wow..what a wonderful feeling. Some of them are so old here: from the 800´s or 1000´s. Just the thought..of what these places..walls..have seen..what the paintings that hang there or decorations have witnessed!!!! Well, it´s breathtaking! And then the old old gravemarkers outside. Or the Viking burial mounds that are scattered around the countryside here in Sweden. "It´s a kind of magic" to be standing there.

I love the way the Vikings paid homage when burying their dead, adrift on a fiery boat out into the vast ocean. Thats so poetic!