First, I want to thank Dotsie again for pointing me to the book, Final Gifts which I actually had on my bookshelf but hadn't even picked up to read - I didn't even have it on my TBR list. DUH! After reading a bit, I recognized another title, and went to see if I had it. Sure 'nough, I did.

I stayed up this morning thumbing through five of the books I own that either were written about death and dying, or that have chapters pertaining to the subject of death and dying. Reading sections, from one book to another, opened my eyes to how much we ignore about death.

Do you all care to talk about death and the process of dying?
If yes, some opening questions:
Do you fear death?
Do you look on it as a reward to life?
Do you wish it didn't have to be a part of life?
When you really think about it, does it paint life differently for you?
Does it challenge your feelings of personal significance?
Does it render your earthly endeavors meaningless, making you realize how insignificant we each are in the grand scheme of things?
(so many other questions come to mind)

I'm thinking of my mom and dad and the whirlwind of feelings, thoughts and questions they must be dealing with. They are both Christians, believing in the afterlife, but I wonder why their comments and actions come across as so odd to me... as Christians, I'm thinking they'd welcome the final call.

Your thoughts?

Is this subject taboo
... no one seems to want to talk it... for whatever reasons - all understandable - so may I suggest reading the book dotsie recommended, whether you are living it (as she said in another post), or not.
I have been reading from the five books I have on the subject (three of which are Christian based), and I am revamping what death and dying mean to me.
Dying and death are not to be put in the same bucket... to me anyway. Death is easy, it seems. It's the dying that can be hard.
So the question above, "Do you fear death?" has changed to "Do you fear dying?"
I've been putting myself in my dad's place as I've been reading. I've developed a very tender new spot in my heart for him. I'm seeing him altogether differently, too, for some reason. Can't explain that part.
This reading is giving me a different perspective on life, in general, as well. Having battled suicidal* thoughts in my not so long ago past (thank time and the Lord for getting me beyond those), I am cleaning that slate in my mind written on in that period of my life.
What's oddest is I don't think I could have read this stuff earlier than now... not even last year... and it mean anything... really mean something to me.
And, you know what? I picked up the book dots mentioned for all of $.10 at a local thrift store, put it on my shelf and forgot about it. When she mentioned it, I checked my shelfari.com bookshelf (as I usually do before buying or renting from the library) and there it was. I didn't even know what the book was about when I bought it... I bought it because it was $.10 (the weird reason I buy books sometimes).

*I still have them fleetingly, but I don't "battle" with them now.

Gims, I saw the post, but wanted to think about it a little before replying.

As you said; it’s the dying part that I think most of us fear. I’ve admitted it before, and I’ll do it again; I’m such a wimp. When I have a horrible cold, I could just die. So if I were seriously ill, with terrible pain, and knew the outcome is death, I think I would try to shorten the process. I have no problem with the religious aspect on this. So many cultures practice it. I have no idea how it is in America, but there are several countries in Europe that have “death” clinics…or whatever you call them, sorry…I have no idea. If the patient wishes to die, and the medical evidence is there, his/her wish will be granted. I support freedom of each individual to decide for him or her self.

Of course if suicidal wishes come from depression, or certain outside influences, then I support taking medication to treat the patient. I was truly taken aback, gims, to read that you have battled suicidal thoughts, and still have fleeting moments with them. Would you care to share how you have overcome them? But please don’t if it’s too personal or too difficult.

Gims, could it be that your parents fear they may not go to heaven? This is one of the problems I have with the Christian and other religions. I hope I don’t offend anyone here by saying, I think it is truly a cruel and manipulative technique to install fear of the afterlife in a human being. How burdensome and oppressive that is. What if these beliefs are wrong and you have struggled with these thoughts your entire life.

No, I chose acceptance of the unknown. That itself is peaceful.

I do not mind discussing death.I am not macabre.
For me it a fact...Its a parting and painful and a leveller.All people will die its the living that is important.
I appreciate some cannot discuss this.
MA

No one escapes this ending in life. Everytime we go to a memorial service we're faced with our own mortality. I think as one ages it just becomes closer to one's mind. I don't think anyone looks forward to the journey, especially if you value and try to enjoy life. But the fact that we're all here for a limited time makes life even more precious and to be lived and not wasted. And how can you really understand that until you've lived to a certain age? I'm so blessed to be going back into hospice work full time. I consider it a privelege to help people cross that threshold in as peaceful and comfortable way as possible. Religion is obviously a comforting way to view death for believers. I have also seen that abused many times with hard lined preachers and teachers who are all black and white in their thinking. Everyone deals with death in their own way.

LJ ot takes a special person to work in a Hospice.And that you are.
I have connections with our Childrens' Hospice.

I have been on training with the Chaplain and team for our local Hospital.Like you I see it as a priveledge.
Very humbling to be allow to visit ill people.
MA

Hi gims..from the reaper there are quite a few wonderful movies, mostly brittish, where the reaper is usually a slightly comic figure, but nevertheless inevitable in that he does..bring death or the end...no matter how lovebable he is.

I certainly DO NOT look upon death as a reward..it is simply a fact to life..like being born is also a fact of life. There is a beginning and an end. I am not looking forward to it yet..but I know it´s there. And this gives me perspective in my life..especially now that I am 60 and still here. Some things fall by the wayside now because I know that time is running short..as it always has actually. Because you never know when death or the end will come. There are no guarantees!

Like you, Hannelore, I don´t believe in a judgemental afterlife. I find this cruel..and unrealistic. BUT that is just MY view..and since I don´t know anything for sure..except that death will come..I respect all other thoughts on the subject. coming from a former catholic and new churchwoman (swedenborg)

Like you, Hannelore, I hope that I can shorten my suffering..if that should come..as I don´t want to have unnecessary pain or perhaps the feeling of being "gone" within my own skin and mind. I have put down 2 dogs in my life time (with help)..so why shouldn´t someone or I, myself, extend the same courtesy and respect to myself?

I kind of think that I will be recycled after my death..ash to ashes, if you will. I will return to the earth and give it a tiny tiny bit of nourishment..and so goes on the circle of life..if you understand what I mean,gims?

The fact of death makes my time here very significant..for me. I want to do what I think is important at the moment and give as much as I can..and perhaps at times..give even more than I think I can. Death makes me grateful for everything I have been able to experience up to now..and I hope that just by being "me"..I might be able to pass on some of the gifts life has brought me, to my grandchildren..which are the continuation in my circle of life..not line of life..but circle of life. VERY IMPORTANT!! Life is cycles..not a linear prospect (in my view)..

Gims..if you are thinking alot about death and things around it..you are actually thinking of life..if you flip to the otherside of your thoughts. Watch the movie" Riding the Bullet" by Steven King..I recommend it highly in context of your thread here.BUT it IS a Steven King film..so you have got to be able to take his eay of expressing his thoughts..and you have to stick it out to the end..should you decide to watch it.

It is in dying that we are reborn, it is said..perhaps you are facing death head on in your thoughts at the moment..to be able to LIVE more fully when you come out on the other end??? As you know, my daughter died when she was 11..her passing..her end..has given my life many many more color spectrums in my life. And her own short life..she lived on so many simultaneous levels that I have no capability of experiencing..at least not up to now. She is still a very real part of our family..even among my grandchildren and my youngest son, 18 now..who never knew her. But she has opened doors for all of us that otherwise would have been shut..she has opened parts of our humanity that I believe our ancestors had..a long time ago..a sensitivity to others and a communication on a totally different level than just verbally...

Ok gims..that´s all she wrote and I am not going to correct this post either..so I hope you (and my other friends here on the forum that visit this thread) will understand what "she wrote"

P.S. Gotta admit to you that I am drinking wine mixed with water here..cause this is heavy stuff in one way..but it´s all about life really!!!

HL, in response to your post

(hl)... I would try to shorten the process. I have no problem with the religious aspect on this. So many cultures practice it. ... in Europe that have “death” clinics… If the patient wishes to die, and the medical evidence is there, his/her wish will be granted. I support freedom of each individual to decide for him or her self.
(gims)To be expected, I did not know this. I agree, we should be able to decide for ourselves.

(hl)I was truly taken aback... battled suicidal thoughts, and still have fleeting moments with them. Would you care to share how you have overcome them?
(gims) I have a wonderful aunt who has MADE ME rethink my life. She has been right there for me for over a year, listening without a filter and without judgement. She has been a God send! The only problem with her being my counsel is that she is relative to my life. Also, I know she is truly and earnestly praying for the good of all, me included. The 'fleeting moments' are so different from the darker ones of days gone by, which are scary even to me, as I think back. For anyone to be in such states of despair is purely wrong. I'm so glad I'm beyond them, although I'm still in the healing process. 'Good counsel' would be my answer to your question.

(hl) Gims, could it be that your parents fear they may not go to heaven?
(gims) This is my very thought, along with the question, 'Are they questioning what they've been preaching all these years?' and 'Do they have doubts, too?'

(hl)This is one of the problems I have with the Christian and other religions. I hope I don’t offend anyone here by saying, I think it is truly a cruel and manipulative technique to install fear of the afterlife in a human being. How burdensome and oppressive that is. What if these beliefs are wrong and you have struggled with these thoughts your entire life.
(gims) No offense taken, from me anyway. You speak from which I think.

humlan,
I think you touched on an essence
- in a few words:

By accepting death, living should be enhanced.

Because I could not stop for Death,
He kindly stopped for me;
The carriage held but just ourselves
And Immortality.

We slowly drove, he knew no haste,
And I had put away
My labour, and my leisure too,
For his civility.

We passed the school where children played,
Their lessons scarcely done;
We passed the fields of gazing grain,
We passed the setting sun.

We paused before a house that seemed
A swelling of the ground;
The roof was scarcely visible,
The cornice but a mound.

Since then 'tis centuries; but each
Feels shorter than the day
I first surmised the horses' heads
Were toward eternity.
Emily Dickinson
MA

Its funny how when young I for one never thought much about death, and never my own. I was indestructable as we all believe we are when young. Now I think of it and wonder, how the heck did I get old, when??? I don't remember my life slipping away. I remember well, my twenties, even my thirties then all of a sudden in a brief second in time, I was old, a senior citizen, I hate the label of senior citizen...Old well, pardon the rant, old person complaining!!!

Complain away, chattylady..it´s not often that you do! I, for one, was almost surprised to associate you with the term "senior citizen" ..you may be senior to me in wisdom and humor..that is true..if I have to think in some term (or little box..Pete Seeger again..sorry) when I think of you. There may be som senior citizens out there..but you are NOT one of them! You are only as old as you feel..right???? RIGHT!!!!!!

Lots of HUGS over the big pond..and it´s ok to moan and groan..that´s the spice of life

Glad to hear the book is speaking to you. Another one is Tuesdays with Morrie; loved that book.

This will take soem time and thought, but I'll give it a stab.

Do you fear death?

I don't fear death because I believe I'm going to a better place, but having to live while dying is another thing. I watched Mom wither away to nothing and it was painful for all of us, including her - physically and mentally. However, I still believe God was at work teaching all of us something about ourselves and our relationship with Mom and one another until the moment she died.

Do you look on it as a reward to life?
I do, but I do not believe it is a measured reward based on how one lives their life. I believe there will be no suffering, no pain, no sadness, or anything negative. That said, I believe that for all who believe Christ came to give us eteranl life. So I don't think it's any better or worse for one person or another.

Do you wish it didn't have to be a part of life?

No, I'm cool with it. I wouldn't want to live forever.

When you really think about it, does it paint life differently for you?
Absolutely, it gives me peace in knowing that I have nothing to fear should something tragic happen and I end up dying.

Does it challenge your feelings of personal significance?
No, we are all created equal.

Does it render your earthly endeavors meaningless, making you realize how insignificant we each are in the grand scheme of things?
No. Just the opposite. I believe we have all been given gifts and we are called to use them for the good of God and others. When we strive to live according to His will, we continue to see the blessings and purpose of our lives. We are all a part of His plan.

Thanks for asking these questions. I thoroughly enjoy reading what others believe because it causes me to pause and ponder which is good.

I recently read The Faith Club which is a book abouta these three women - a Christian, a Muslim and a Jew who were all in NY on 9/11. They met for several years and chatted about the similarities and differences within their beliefs. It was an awesome read if this topic interests you. They discussed death and dying too.

I miss Eagle! I'd love to read her responses on this topic. Anyone heard from her?

If I'm honest, yes I'm afraid of death...only because I would rather be living. Like most of you I'm afraid of how I die...I do not want to be a burden to my family or die violently. My personal wish is to be in the arms of my husband and slip away quietly with a smile on HIS face.
As many of you know, I did come close to checking out on my own...but, thank God and my children that never happened. I appreciate life. I appreciate living.
My father always said he was an athiest and when he had his massive heart attack he said he was so scared. Although he was raised in a religious household he chose not to believe in anything. He died afraid and alone except for his younger son (my half-brother) with him during his last hours. My dad was a child molester and I had distanced myself from him for years.
For me, I believe in God and believe that there's peace after death and I pray that if I am conscious during the time I am to die, that my belief will give me courage to face whatever I have to face.
The part I dread the most is leaving my sons and husband. The older I become the more I cherish the time we have and the more life means to me.
Don't know if this answered your question...

Eagle must still be on vacation, she said she'd be gone in March. A cruise I think!!!
Humlan, thank you for the kind words and yes I do feel so much younger than my actual years, one reason its hard to believe what an old gal I really am. Sometimes I do complain though, hey why not, I am human and get cranky from time to time...

Dotsie & Dee, I agree with you both about death. I love life and being a part of the world but realize that death is part of living and my time will come. I also hope for a quiet peaceful departure. I would love to have all the animals I have saved or helped to the other side, to be there frisky, and playful, waiting for me...
Now to me that would be heaven.

Dee, youmention that the older you become, the more you cherish times we have and life means more to you. I am finding this to be particualry true with my FIL. He gets so excited aobut seeing his sons these days and even told them how much he likes their "private meetings." What a hoot. They have begun spending time alone with just the three of them and he revels in it.

Another thing I've noticed is my older son, 36, spends more time talking to me via email/phone than he did in his 20's. I think he's realizing that I'm not going to be around forever and he seems to be finding more time for mom.
I'm glad your FIL is spending more time with your sons. They can learn a lot from him. How wonderful for your sons.

Do you fear death?
No, but I don't want a long drawn-out period of suffering.
Hubbo and I don't talk about much, but after the Terry Schiavo story here a few years ago, I told him that if I was ever in a vegetative state like that -- please pull the plug. To me, nothing would be worse than being stuck inside a body that was never going to recover.

Do you look on it as a reward to life?
no, just the next step in a bodily process.

Do you wish it didn't have to be a part of life?
I accept that someday I will die. I'm not afraid. The only part that bothers me is -- there's never enough time, never.

When you really think about it, does it paint life differently for you?
no. It's not as if this were new information.

Does it challenge your feelings of personal significance?
No. We were meant to have this bodily form in this lifetime. Eventually the body will die. I exist on this plain because I'm supposed to, for now.

Does it render your earthly endeavors meaningless, making you realize how insignificant we each are in the grand scheme of things?
No. Everything/one is small in the grand scheme of things, and everything/one is essential. We are put here for a reason. I believe that everything that is, everything that was, and everything that ever will be -- is connected through time and space and energy. Our significance lies in our being a part of the whole. I believe my/our purpose here is to further that connection and to help others.

A sweater with one piece of yarn missing -- is a sweater with a hole, and the hole grows larger unless another piece of yarn is added. We are all pieces of yarn. Life is the sweater.
----------------------
I believe that when a baby comes out of the womb, it's given a soul, which leaves when the body dies.
I believe this body is one of many that has housed my soul. I have at least one more go-round after this.
It is not my place to speculate about other soul's future(s).

Part and parcel of Catholic praxis is a lifetime preparation for one's death and because of it, I tend to look at death from within theological context and treat it as historical (from the catechetical thesis of Adam/Eve and Resurrection) rather than a natural order of things. How I live my life, the mistakes I commit in my lifetime for which a perfect contrition would merit redemption, the promise of salvation and the afterlife all connect to each other. I find no room for fear, it gets edged out by faith and hope.

and love!

Yes, love! Thanks, Dotsie. How could I have forgotten to expressly state that?

I'm bringing this back up so Eagle can see it if she wants.

Okay, here goes, after much thought and being inspired by Meredith's response. I'll preface this by saying that I've been plagued by suicidal thinking since I was 13 years old. Those thoughts can still whisper in my ear when I'm overwhelmed by sadness, grief or clinical depression. After years of therapy, I've resigned myself to the possibility that those thoughts will be a constant companion for as long as I live. So I've worked hard to educate and arm myself, through self-knowledge, love, forgiveness and a vigilant awareness of their presence on the periphery of my mind. Now whenever they appear, I immediately fling truth (that they are symptoms of an illness) and choice (I choose to live) at them...it seems that the more truth and choice I fling at them, the more powerful that truth and choice become.

Do you fear death?
I used to fear the pain of dying, but after having watched so many loved ones die, I’ve realized that there seems to be a special buffer between one’s spirit and the pain at the time of death…so I no longer fear the actual process of dying – I know that my God will send me all the help I need (Jesus, angels, my loved ones) to cross over. What I DO fear is dying before I’ve really learned how to live.

Do you look on death as a reward to life?
No, just passing through to another facet of being. I see LIFE as a much-to-be-cherished gift from God – the chance to experience the joy and power of creation, love and existence as a spirit-being in human form.

Do you wish it didn’t have to be a part of life?
I wish we didn’t have to say good-bye (even if only temporarily) to the people we love and who have been such a vibrant, significant part of our lives. But I know it’s an unchangeable reality, perhaps necessary in order for others to be allowed to come and experience life-on-earth in their own turn and time.

When you really think about it, does it paint life differently for you?
The more death I experience, the more it teaches me about life. I realize what a gift it is to be alive for another day. So death paints each new day with its own wondrous kaleidoscope of colours, discoveries, encounters and callings. Death urges me to search out what I’m meant to discover and weave into my life today.

Does it challenge your feelings of personal significance?
No. Every day when I wake up, no matter how sad, crappy, sick, joyful, glad or anything in between I may feel, I know without a doubt that I’m meant to be alive today. I matter. My life matters, to God, to my husband – to me! I’m glad to be alive. And I’m glad to be me, even if I don’t always know who “me” is or like what that “me” does. I’m learning to embrace my life in all its shades & colours, in all its pain & glory and even in all its sometimes tedious mediocrity – because I know I’m a work in progress and I’m just choosing to embrace –and be grateful for - the journey itself.

Does it render your earthly endeavors meaningless making you realize how insignificant we each are in the grand scheme of things?
NO, each death makes me realize even more that my existence here-and-now is not only significant, it’s ESSENTIAL. Maybe I can’t see how my piece of the puzzle fits, but God can, and somehow my life, my ability to get out of bed and live today fits into His “grand scheme of things”. And that’s enough for me.

I have to echo Meredith, because she says it so beautifully: “Everything/one is small in the grand scheme of things, and everything/one is essential. We are put here for a reason. I believe that everything that is, everything that was, and everything that ever will be -- is connected through time and space and energy. Our significance lies in our being a part of the whole. I believe my/our purpose here is to further that connection and to help others.

A sweater with one piece of yarn missing -- is a sweater with a hole, and the hole grows larger unless another piece of yarn is added. We are all pieces of yarn. Life is the sweater.”

I hate to sound cold and uncaring, because I am neither BUT no matter how we feel about death or what we say about death, there are only two definites in this world, one is LIFE and the other is DEATH!!!!!

And, Meredith's "One Month" is a beautiful poem of reflection for the in-between.

Meredith, can we post your "One Month" here?

Chatty, some of us just need to grapple with aspects of both of those realities in order to come to some peace with, as Lola calls it, the "in-between" time. I enjoy these types of philosophical discussions - but it's hard to find other people who do, or who have the time to - and very few people want to discuss death, so when this kind of discussion comes up here, I enjoy participating and hearing other people's thoughts.

I saw this excellent PBS series a few years ago and think it should be mandatory for everybody. It goes where this thread is trying to go, a place uncomfortable for so many people.

It is by Bill Moyers and is called "On Our Own Terms: Moyers on Dying." Description from website: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/onourownterms/

"There is a great divide separating the kind of care Americans say they want at the end of life and what our culture currently provides. Surveys show that we want to die at home, free of pain, surrounded by the people we love. But the vast majority of us die in the hospital, alone, and experiencing unnecessary discomfort. Bill Moyers goes from the bedsides of the dying to the front lines of a movement to improve end-of-life care in ON OUR OWN TERMS: Moyers on Dying. Two years in production, this four-part, six-hour series crosses the country from hospitals to hospices to homes to capture some of the most intimate stories ever filmed and the most candid conversations ever shared with a television audience."

By popular demand: (Thank you Lola and Eagle Heart!)

One Month

If I found out I had one month to live,
What would I do that I’m not doing now?
Don’t want to die saying “coulda done, shoulda done”
Don’t want to die saying “coulda been, shoulda been.”
Like a potter at the wheel I take life and mould it
Touch clay, shape clay
Form it to vessel
Kiln dry, bisque fire, glaze and cool
Container of hopes and love and sorrow.
We can’t create earth
But we can turn the wheel
Caress the clay until we build
A pot of grace, amphora of strength
Capable of holding whatever life brings.

What would I do if I had one month to live?
I would love you completely
Attack life with a passion
Follow my dreams
And effect whatever is necessary to become the person I need to be.
I would actively seek happiness
Revel in joy
Strive for excellence
Create beauty.

What would I do if I had one month to live?
Everything I’m doing now.

© Meredith Karen Laskow
from my book "Galloping Words"

Mij, thanks for mentioning this. In case anyone is interested in buying it, here is some information from their site. I think it might be a good thing for a family to own and pass around.

ON OUR OWN TERMS: Moyers on Dying was produced by Public Affairs Television, Inc. and presented on PBS by Thirteen/WNET New York. Video tapes of the series may be ordered by calling Films of the Humanities at 1-800-257-5126.

Meredith, I especially love this:

What would I do if I had one month to live?
I would love you completely
Attack life with a passion
Follow my dreams
And effect whatever is necessary to become the person I need to be.
I would actively seek happiness
Revel in joy
Strive for excellence
Create beauty.

Wonderful, Meredith!

Dancer9

What would I do if I had one month to live?

Visit all the pastry stores around us and fill up.

Get a nose job, and demand an open casket!

Go on a balloon ride.

Visit each lady here that has meant so much to me.

Non stop cuddling with Hubby.

Swim with a Dolphin

Take the whole family to Disney Land.

Finally find that G spot

Take laughing gas, and giggle my way to the grave.

And this is mine alongside Dotsie's:

"We can’t create earth
But we can turn the wheel
Caress the clay until we build
A pot of grace, amphora of strength
Capable of holding whatever life brings."

Many thanks for sharing "One Month" here, Meredith.

I'm going down like Hannelore...

Amen, Hannelore, AMEN!

I'd have to add cheesecake to that list...how many pieces of cheesecake have I said no to in my life???? WHY???? This thread has made me wake up to the reality that life's meant to be lived...I need to take the plunge and throw fear and caution to the wind and just dive right in...the next time a piece of cheesecake comes my way, I'm digging in with two forks!

mmmmmmm. The kind with strawberries on top.
Here's to life's little pleasures!

Thanks for the link Mij... I'll get back to investigate it better soon.

OH, and thank you so much for the poem, meredith. I read and reread the excerpt Dotsie pulled. Then had to go back and read the whole poem after MA referenced some more. I wish I could close my life's poem with your ending lines - I'm striving to be able to close it just like that.

and, hannelore - you gave me a hardy chuckle!!!
I actually paused long enough to picture some of the things I'd do... and came up with:

I'd get with my grandchildren and my girls as often as possible.

I'd make a video or write a booklet for each.

I'd cleanse my heart and soul of all bad feelings - much of what I'm working on doing now, but I'd accelerate the process.

I'd make sure my underwear were clean everyday.

I'd also keep my house cleaner, giving away things as the days passed.

I'd touch everything - flowers, trees, grass, horses, art - feeling the essence of everything I could.

I'd write a longggggg letter to my DH.

I'd write thank you cards to everyone who ever touched my life... phone calls wouldn't do, because I might get side tracked or interrupted.

I'd call Shirley McLaine and Billy Graham - I'd love to speak with them in person... I doubt it'd ever happen.

I'd swim with the dolphins, too, hannelore... I've wanted to since I read a book as a child about a young girl who did swam with wild ones in the ocean.

And, another thing I've wanted to do (inspired by a scene in one of Elizabeth Berg's books) is sleep in the forest under the light of the moon, by myself.

Heehee, I already eat cheesecake.

I'd run up my credit card to the max....

Thanks everyone for the kind comments.

I think I'd want to FINISH everything I'm doing now -- loooooonnnnggg list -- so I could go more peacefully.

These are so sweet.

I'm happy to say that my MIL wanted to swim with the dolphins and we allowed her that opportunity while on vacation once. She and my daughter swam with them. One of my favotire phtos of my daughter is her kissing a bottle nosed dolphin. It's precious.

Thought I'd share that when Mom was dying of cancer, and too sick to go anywhere, all the adult girls in the family had a sleep-over with her. It was a blast. My youngest sister is hysterical and she was in rare form that night. We laughed at her recollection of family memories until we cried.

Now I wonder why we haven't had another sleep-over. SOmeone doesn't need to be dying to do such fun things.

If I knew I were dying, I think I'd rent a big beach house for the summer and swing wide the doors for family and friends. We'd eat, drink and be merry while on the beach and also lounging comfortably around the spacious, airy home with windows open wide and the breeze blowing through.

I have avoided this thread because of my feelings and how strange I may sound, but,I decided that I want to participate in this discussion and be open, and also, they ARE MY feelings!

I have long idolized death. Throughout my childhood, as hard as it was, I thought that death would finally solve all my problems. I still feel death is a gift, if you will, a pain free place to be where it has to be better than this where we live.

I know this sounds very depressive but I love my life. I have a good life. I have great friends, a good career, a family that although small, is loving and special. I have about all I want and if I want something, most of the time I can get it. I am educated, well traveled and love people.

Still, when my death comes I am more than ready. I feel that I will get there when it is time and when I do, it has it's own rewards.

There is terrible suffering in this world. So many in pain, so much to feel compassion for. It hurts me so very much to see this. I hurt when I watch society move towards more and more evil in their hobbies.

My best friend, a very respected shrink, says I am "about truth, beauty and art." If this is true, then it explains why the crude part of the earth, of the people, is so hard for me to suffer.

I have so much fun at times and I am known for my sense of humor by anyone who gets to know me. I do not want to speed up my death.

Still, when it gets here, and I am to go, I will go willingly into the light and will have waited for it for a very long time, since childhood!

Strange, maybe, but the only sadness for me about death is if anyone I love may be hurt by my passing.

Dancer

gims,
I've seen "Christians" come to the end of life and cry. I never understood that. If they truly believed death was the beginning of eternity, then why the tears? I don't know.
I believe death is a transformation from the physical body to the spiritual body. I believe it's the end of pain, emotional torment, and heartache. I believe we pass into another realm, forever. I believe what the Bible says about it. But, I chose to believe this. gims, I've seen many, many sick people these past three years. It is a humbling experience. I've seen the very young, the very old and all ages in between. I could NOT withstand what I have, if I didn't believe as I do.

P.S. This is Easter Day. The Rev. Charles Stanley gave an excellent sermon on this very subject, this morning.

jabber, I think it's the earthly side of Christians that fears death. How can one not be moved by the thought of missing what they've known for a lifetime (however short or long it was, however good or bad it was)? Crying is a good thing, I think. It releases emotions. Heck, those of us left behind often cry, too, why shouldn't the dying?

I look upon death as a shedding of a shell, a mortal part, something that was necessary to give us form to live this earthly life. To me, death is not so much a transformation, although change is involved, but more an emancipation. What gives our earthly form 'life' lives on. Death takes the body, but not 'us.'

It is interesting how we see death.

Today my dear friend and I spoke about the sudden death on Thursday of her husband.I have such admiration for this friend who has had so much sorrow in her life.Yet until now has been strong.
Three weeks ago her Mother died and then this happened out of the blue.
No matter what we all feel this woman is pole axed in grief.I also have a heavy heart.
Please pray for a sincere woman who is sad beond belief at not having some to care for.Her man was a quadripedic and needed all hours care.
Mountain ash

MA, pass on our heartfelt condolences, please. How hard she must be having it. I am so sorry.

That is so sad and so hard, Mountain Ash.
I'm glad she has you.
Dancer

gims,
I'm sure you're right. Probably the unknown adds to the crying phase as well. And leaving behind the physical world is enough to make a person cry. I guess what got me, is that these people I'm referring to were the preachy type.
They had all the answers, until they themselves faced the end. Then it wasn't so easy. "Do as I say, not as I do," adage comes to mind! MA, Sorry to read about all the heartache. Members here will lift your friend up in prayer. I know they will!
Blessings and prayers...

Spent a while chatting to my friend.She is still in shock,
Thing is..
we all share our heartfelt thoughts on this topic..we all have experienced the fact of death but the reality is the absence of a loved one is forever.and we are big enough to know what that means.Seeing her so scared yet making plans of a sort being puzzled at what the cause was trying to explain how she looked after him since he became disabled are all muddled together.confusion and grief.
My friend has weathered many storms she is an inspiration to many but she is hurting.
I love her.
Mountain ash

Aw MA, this is so sad. Was her mother's death also unexpected? Not that it matters, just wondering. I can't imagine two such losses so close together. I'll be praying for her loneliness and for her to find purpose again. And I'll pray for you to be the support she needs from a dear friend right now. I'm sure you're good at it.

Her Mother was on a routine visit to hospital and had to lay down..as suddenly as that.
Mountain ash

Mountain Ash,
Your friend is on my mind and in my heart constantly these days. My grief is less intense - but oh, it doesn't take much for those jagged edges to claw through the resignation. I cannot imagine losing both a mother and husband within such a short time...my heart aches for your friend, and I will be carrying her in my prayers for a long time to come.

Ditto to what Dotsie. Death is difficult, even when expected. And I don't care how old a person is, it still isn't easy. I think of sayings loved ones used that died in the 60s. The death of my adoptive parents and grandparents left a hole in my heart big enough to drive a semi through.
I'm sorry your friend lost two close to her in a short span of time. Prayers that both of you are given the comfort you need, have been sent heavenward!

I wonder what happens to people who lose several family members at one time; like in a car accident. How on earth does one grieve?
Thinking of your friend MA, and sending a prayer her way.
Hugs to you too,
Hannelore

This is sort of a deep question but you know me! I always seem to step in it. Perhaps someone will answer me.

The person I lost that was close to me so far was my grandfather who did much of the raising of me, so I loved him and idolized him. I mourned him for years.

A year before he died, he told me that he felt he would die within a year and told me that he already felt "one foot on the other side." I was naturally upset, and young, so I was angry that he was thinking the way he was when he said, "I'm ready, I'm ready to see my mother and others." He was ready and when he died at 83, he dropped while jogging and only regained conscienceness (sp.) once, and died within 3 days.

when I saw him on life support, he was "dying," to get off nd die. I could see it and feel it and it hurt me terribly! I wanted them to let him go as he had wanted to do. Luckily he did die after about 24 hours on life support.

My question is this:

Has anyone been near the death of a loved on and have them tell you that they are ready to die and want to go? Has anyone been around a close person to them that told you they wanted to go as my grandfather did even though he was in no pain and had plenty of everything, love, money, intellect, etc???

I always wanted to ask others this...

Thank you,
Dancer9

Dancer, I think that my daughter tried to tell us that she wanted to go and could we please..let her go? That it is was ok for her..and it would be ok for us,too..she knew. Her doctor told us that people near death often are one or two steps ahead of their families..and kind of show the way for their loved ones...My daughter wasn´t feeling too well during the end..so I guess that she knew when it was her time..she died 3 or 4 days later.

I haven´t really known anyone that has been feeling ok..but still felt their life was going to close..and that it was ok. Your grandfather didn´t have to suffer and apparently passed when he wanted to..more or less..what a blessing! But that isn´t really your question, it it?

A very close friend of mine from Africa once told me that I would live to be 85..and that I would be a female witch/crone in my older age ..who knows maybe I will come to the point that your grandfather did..when it feels as tho..it´s all she/he wrote? Interesting thought!

Elizabeth Kiebler Ross has written a few very very good books on death and dying..if that might help your thoughts,too??? She helped me around the death of my daughter very much! She´s not dreary or gloomy..but perhaps you are already familiar with her writing?

If I Had My Life To Live Over
I'd try to make more mistakes next time.

I would relax, I would limber up.

I would be crazier that I've been this trip.

I know very few things I'd take seriously anymore.

I would take more chances, I would take more trips.

I would scale more mountains, I would swim more rivers.

And I would watch more sunsets.

I would eat more ice cream and fewer beans.

I would have more actual troubles and fewer imaginary ones.
You see... I was one of those people who lived prophylactically and sensibly and sanely, hour after hour and day after day. Oh, I've had my moments, and if I had to do it all over again, I'd have many more of them. In fact, I'd try not to have anything else, just moments, one after another, instead of living so many years ahead of my day. I've been one of those people who never went anywhere without a thermometer, a hot water bottle, a gargle, a raincoat and a parachute. If I had it to do all over again, I'd travel lighter, much lighter than I have. I would start barefoot earlier in the spring, and stay that way later in the fall. And I would ride more merry-go-rounds, and catch more gold rings, and greet more people, and pick more flowers, and dance more often..... If I had it to do all over again, But you see, I don't.

From the Journal of Humanistic Psychology.
By an 82-year-old man dying and accepting death.

This post has returned and I can add this Dancer.
My Great grandmother was the local "wise woman" she saw to birth...and to death prior to health care in UK.Terefor my own Granmother had a matter of fact approach.Yes she grieved when people died but she LIVED.she was fun.she went on swings with me even down a slide once in her sixties.
She told me old people "know" when death is near.She tried to prepare me..telling me how it was natural to go to the grave.She would hurry her housework get her children ready and go each day...she saw the cemetary from her window..her friends would ask where she was and be told.."she is there beside the two graves.Her Mother and her baby."I am named for this baby.
She said thing "pass but detail must be given to the dear ones" I grew up hearing this and I believe her.
When she died I had a 5 and 2 year old...I was traumatised and was on auto pilot.I kept the last magazine she gave me for 25 years..holding it in private and used her mirror for years.
Yes she was right (for me) to prepare me.she knew me well.
So Dancer for her it was truth that she knew...

Then my own life opened up wider and I felt joy at being her Grandaughter..but as I write this I am deeply sad.
Mountain ash

Mountain Ash,
Thank you so much for writing this.

Dancer

Gims, I've seen this before but it still flows with wisdom.

Mountain Ash, that was so beautifully said, with so much awareness.

My step-father has recently been released from hospital. We all took turns staying with him to help my mother and give her a break -- we did this for 19 days and Mom was there the most. The night I stayed at the hospital (slept in lounge chair) he told me that the reason my mother wanted someone there at all times is b/c when my grandmother passed away, my mother left the room for just a moment and was not there during the passing. My mother is terribly frightened. During nurses rounds the night I stayed with my step-father, he awoke to tell me he had a recurring dream that he was on an island fishing, there were streams, valleys, trees, etc. That there were others he did not know and I was there, yet I was the only one in the family there. When we awoke, he said that was the most restful night he had thus far. I didn't inquire b/c I was afraid it meant we were going to lose him and that perhaps I would die soon, too. Yet, I inquired with another gal and she said the mayhap it may be that he expects me as the oldest to take care of the family. I don't want anything to happen to him, I want him to be healthy and happy.

MustangGal, if you can get the book dots recommended to me. It speaks of recurring dreams that the dying have, along with so much more.

I remember when my maternal grandmother was near her death moment. She was in a place other than the hospital, readying for a family meal of some sort. She was talking to sisters that were long passed and she was making movements as if she were standing in a kitchen, reaching for baking goods and talking to family that wasn't present (for me to see anyway). She was flat on her back in a hospital bed, but I could tell, in her mind, she was some other place - a good place for her - she was a great cook and did it often for everyone she loved... the book made this make sense to me.

Grandfather loved the Scotish Highlands.As a boy he joined walking clubs and knew all the trees and songbirds by name.Me too.I was well taught.
His final shared time just before death was that he was walking up a hill...and he was "nearly there" this menat so much to us..for he was a Highlander..^six foot three tall with clear all seeing blue eyes..
Mountain ash

Gims, I've seen and heard of this happening to many people just before they die. My grandmother had been in a coma for weeks...moments before she died, her nurse said that my grandmother sat up in bed with her eyes wide open in delight and said to someone at the foot of her bed (not the nurse): "You're here! I knew you would come for me. I've waited so long for you." And then she reached out her arms, laughed and then died.

Hubby's sister recently passed away...the day before she died, she told her daughters that John (her husband who had died many years ago) had slept in the bed with her the night before. She even shared the long conversations that they had (very coherent conversations!) and mentioned that a few other people had "visited" her during the night (also all dead for many years). The daughters thought she was hallucinating, but I don't doubt for a moment that John was there with her. I really believe that there's a buffer zone just before we die, where we're still technically alive but not really there at all...and I think that it's entirely possible that our loved ones who have gone before us meet us in that place to help us cross over.

The day that Gary (my brother) died, we didn't know that he was going to go that day, but I was by his side the entire day, and could feel Mom and Dad's presence there like I've never felt them before...it was so strong that something inside of me knew that this was it...they had come to help him cross over. There were five of us at his side when he died, and we all felt that the room was FULL of light and presence...we just knew that Mom and Dad (and others) were there to take Gary home.

gims,
I haven't taken the time to read all these posts. The older I get, the more I appreciate life. I think I DON'T fear being dead, as much as I fear the process of getting there. I've visited many care facilities these past three years and have seen lots of young people suffer. A few of them I've befriended while visiting a friend. One gal is 53 and has had MS 21 years. She's been in the home I visit for the past 5 years. She's the sweetest human I've ever met. And I see her suffer and many others suffer. And it's the possibility of being a burden, that scares me. If I could die fast, or go in my sleep, that would be wonderful. I believe our bodies transform into spirit. And we live eternally in that spiritual, being form. I'm looking forward to that. It's getting from here to there that's makes me apprehensive! Since I've experienced what I recently have, I have a much more tender place in my heart for the aged. That I know!

I haven't read all the posts too but I know many people in their 80's that are amazingly active! My own grandfather died while jogging at 83! He was jogging!
I know an elderly dancer that still teaches ballet and is quite respected as was Martha Graham when she was older.

I work with two people in their 80's who work transport at the hospital and that includes pushing patients in their wheelchairs no matter how big that patient is and they also push gurneys and do it without a complaint!

I have been exposed to elderly people whose quality of life is great and who are really relative now, still, to everyone!

In fact, tonight I will be having dinner with a woman in her 80's who works at the hospital and who is full of amazing stories that I could never hear anywhere else!

I hope I am the way they are when I am elderly and I work to be that way then. I take good care of myself and watch my body closely so that it can hold up for me and take me to a place when I am elderly that is good.

Yes, we cannot help if we have a disease like MS, which my sister in law has but she is working on her quality of life as well with her treatments!

Death does not have to be ugly in my experience. I keep hoping for the best for those I love and myself!

Dancer, weighing in.

Eagle heart,
thank you for sharing these wonderful stories and I don't doubt you for a moment!

dancer

Eagleheart..the night that my daughter was dying..she was in a coma actually..but she woke from her deep sleep a few times and she was in our country cottage then..the place she chose to be with us, her family, during her last summer. And she knew it was her last summer...I,too,think that she was traveling slowly gently to her place of rest..eventho her body was still alive for awhile on earth. The stillness that came after her last breath..was magical, mysterious..and in her case, I think that heaven itself came down to take her in its arms. Well, it felt like that anyway..the stillness and the light. She was only 11 yrs old..so maybe heaven does this for their children that are coming home?

Absolutely, Humlan...all of heaven's sweetest angels were right there, singing beautiful songs for her, and I am sure that Jesus Himself came and swept her in His gentle arms and took her dancing across the universe.

gims, i'll for that book, thx.

You have all written some very personal and profound experiences. These are experiences I never would hear about in my "actual" life. I'm appreciate all that you have been through, and thank you for sharing.

Dancing across the universe, Eagleheart! What a picture! I love it and so did she, I am sure! Love you!!!!

My adoptive parents and grandparents were very active, right up until their deaths. Daddy worked a farm and had a herd of 200 cattle until he was 90 years old. My grandfather walked 2 1/2 miles the day he entered the hospital with double pneumonia, at the age of 91. Both mom and grandma were active, healthy and wonderful. I'd like to stay active and keep going into old, old age. But all I was saying is that those are the lucky ones. The MS folks I referred to before are all go-getters and keep motoring around that County Home. They all have a smile on their faces and are sweet, sweet people. I don't why some people seem so blessed and others seem to have an uphill battle just to survive. When I get to Heaven, I've got to ask God about that one!

Jabber, that's on my list of things to ask God.

Last week, one of the most beautiful women I've ever known died suddenly - on her way to church! She was so full of life, very active in the church and her community, had a close-knit family with her sons and grandchildren - only about 50 years old. It's downright baffling how such a healthy, vibrant woman who brought so much joy to so many lives could just drop dead while others so much older and sicker languish in hospital beds just begging to die. It's not that I think or even imagine that one life means more than another, it's not my call, and I know better than to question God's purpose for anyone other than myself. Still, I admit, it baffles me. Why some people live forever when they'd rather die, and others die so young when they'd rather live forever.