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#143953 - 03/03/08 06:14 PM Can We Talk About Death?
gims Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 3404
Loc: USA
First, I want to thank Dotsie again for pointing me to the book, Final Gifts which I actually had on my bookshelf but hadn't even picked up to read - I didn't even have it on my TBR list. DUH! After reading a bit, I recognized another title, and went to see if I had it. Sure 'nough, I did.

I stayed up this morning thumbing through five of the books I own that either were written about death and dying, or that have chapters pertaining to the subject of death and dying. Reading sections, from one book to another, opened my eyes to how much we ignore about death.

Do you all care to talk about death and the process of dying?
If yes, some opening questions:
Do you fear death?
Do you look on it as a reward to life?
Do you wish it didn't have to be a part of life?
When you really think about it, does it paint life differently for you?
Does it challenge your feelings of personal significance?
Does it render your earthly endeavors meaningless, making you realize how insignificant we each are in the grand scheme of things?
(so many other questions come to mind)

I'm thinking of my mom and dad and the whirlwind of feelings, thoughts and questions they must be dealing with. They are both Christians, believing in the afterlife, but I wonder why their comments and actions come across as so odd to me... as Christians, I'm thinking they'd welcome the final call.

Your thoughts?

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#143954 - 03/04/08 07:02 AM Re: Can We Talk About Death? [Re: gims]
gims Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 3404
Loc: USA
Is this subject taboo
... no one seems to want to talk it... for whatever reasons - all understandable - so may I suggest reading the book dotsie recommended, whether you are living it (as she said in another post), or not.
I have been reading from the five books I have on the subject (three of which are Christian based), and I am revamping what death and dying mean to me.
Dying and death are not to be put in the same bucket... to me anyway. Death is easy, it seems. It's the dying that can be hard.
So the question above, "Do you fear death?" has changed to "Do you fear dying?"
I've been putting myself in my dad's place as I've been reading. I've developed a very tender new spot in my heart for him. I'm seeing him altogether differently, too, for some reason. Can't explain that part.
This reading is giving me a different perspective on life, in general, as well. Having battled suicidal* thoughts in my not so long ago past (thank time and the Lord for getting me beyond those), I am cleaning that slate in my mind written on in that period of my life.
What's oddest is I don't think I could have read this stuff earlier than now... not even last year... and it mean anything... really mean something to me.
And, you know what? I picked up the book dots mentioned for all of $.10 at a local thrift store, put it on my shelf and forgot about it. When she mentioned it, I checked my shelfari.com bookshelf (as I usually do before buying or renting from the library) and there it was. I didn't even know what the book was about when I bought it... I bought it because it was $.10 (the weird reason I buy books sometimes).

*I still have them fleetingly, but I don't "battle" with them now.

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#143955 - 03/04/08 07:43 AM Re: Can We Talk About Death? [Re: gims]
Edelweiss Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 4136
Loc: American living in Europe
Gims, I saw the post, but wanted to think about it a little before replying.

As you said; it’s the dying part that I think most of us fear. I’ve admitted it before, and I’ll do it again; I’m such a wimp. When I have a horrible cold, I could just die. So if I were seriously ill, with terrible pain, and knew the outcome is death, I think I would try to shorten the process. I have no problem with the religious aspect on this. So many cultures practice it. I have no idea how it is in America, but there are several countries in Europe that have “death” clinics…or whatever you call them, sorry…I have no idea. If the patient wishes to die, and the medical evidence is there, his/her wish will be granted. I support freedom of each individual to decide for him or her self.

Of course if suicidal wishes come from depression, or certain outside influences, then I support taking medication to treat the patient. I was truly taken aback, gims, to read that you have battled suicidal thoughts, and still have fleeting moments with them. Would you care to share how you have overcome them? But please don’t if it’s too personal or too difficult.

Gims, could it be that your parents fear they may not go to heaven? This is one of the problems I have with the Christian and other religions. I hope I don’t offend anyone here by saying, I think it is truly a cruel and manipulative technique to install fear of the afterlife in a human being. How burdensome and oppressive that is. What if these beliefs are wrong and you have struggled with these thoughts your entire life.

No, I chose acceptance of the unknown. That itself is peaceful.

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#143956 - 03/04/08 09:29 AM Re: Can We Talk About Death? [Re: Edelweiss]
Mountain Ash Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 3027
I do not mind discussing death.I am not macabre.
For me it a fact...Its a parting and painful and a leveller.All people will die its the living that is important.
I appreciate some cannot discuss this.
MA

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#143957 - 03/04/08 11:39 AM Re: Can We Talk About Death? [Re: Mountain Ash]
ladyjane Offline


Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 1761
Loc: Southern Maine, USA
No one escapes this ending in life. Everytime we go to a memorial service we're faced with our own mortality. I think as one ages it just becomes closer to one's mind. I don't think anyone looks forward to the journey, especially if you value and try to enjoy life. But the fact that we're all here for a limited time makes life even more precious and to be lived and not wasted. And how can you really understand that until you've lived to a certain age? I'm so blessed to be going back into hospice work full time. I consider it a privelege to help people cross that threshold in as peaceful and comfortable way as possible. Religion is obviously a comforting way to view death for believers. I have also seen that abused many times with hard lined preachers and teachers who are all black and white in their thinking. Everyone deals with death in their own way.
_________________________
If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane ~ Jimmy Buffett

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#143958 - 03/04/08 05:44 PM Re: Can We Talk About Death? [Re: ladyjane]
Mountain Ash Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 3027
LJ ot takes a special person to work in a Hospice.And that you are.
I have connections with our Childrens' Hospice.

I have been on training with the Chaplain and team for our local Hospital.Like you I see it as a priveledge.
Very humbling to be allow to visit ill people.
MA

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#143959 - 03/04/08 06:40 PM Re: Can We Talk About Death? [Re: gims]
humlan Offline


Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 1341
Loc: Sweden
Hi gims..from the reaper there are quite a few wonderful movies, mostly brittish, where the reaper is usually a slightly comic figure, but nevertheless inevitable in that he does..bring death or the end...no matter how lovebable he is.

I certainly DO NOT look upon death as a reward..it is simply a fact to life..like being born is also a fact of life. There is a beginning and an end. I am not looking forward to it yet..but I know it´s there. And this gives me perspective in my life..especially now that I am 60 and still here. Some things fall by the wayside now because I know that time is running short..as it always has actually. Because you never know when death or the end will come. There are no guarantees!

Like you, Hannelore, I don´t believe in a judgemental afterlife. I find this cruel..and unrealistic. BUT that is just MY view..and since I don´t know anything for sure..except that death will come..I respect all other thoughts on the subject. coming from a former catholic and new churchwoman (swedenborg)

Like you, Hannelore, I hope that I can shorten my suffering..if that should come..as I don´t want to have unnecessary pain or perhaps the feeling of being "gone" within my own skin and mind. I have put down 2 dogs in my life time (with help)..so why shouldn´t someone or I, myself, extend the same courtesy and respect to myself?

I kind of think that I will be recycled after my death..ash to ashes, if you will. I will return to the earth and give it a tiny tiny bit of nourishment..and so goes on the circle of life..if you understand what I mean,gims?

The fact of death makes my time here very significant..for me. I want to do what I think is important at the moment and give as much as I can..and perhaps at times..give even more than I think I can. Death makes me grateful for everything I have been able to experience up to now..and I hope that just by being "me"..I might be able to pass on some of the gifts life has brought me, to my grandchildren..which are the continuation in my circle of life..not line of life..but circle of life. VERY IMPORTANT!! Life is cycles..not a linear prospect (in my view)..

Gims..if you are thinking alot about death and things around it..you are actually thinking of life..if you flip to the otherside of your thoughts. Watch the movie" Riding the Bullet" by Steven King..I recommend it highly in context of your thread here.BUT it IS a Steven King film..so you have got to be able to take his eay of expressing his thoughts..and you have to stick it out to the end..should you decide to watch it.

It is in dying that we are reborn, it is said..perhaps you are facing death head on in your thoughts at the moment..to be able to LIVE more fully when you come out on the other end??? As you know, my daughter died when she was 11..her passing..her end..has given my life many many more color spectrums in my life. And her own short life..she lived on so many simultaneous levels that I have no capability of experiencing..at least not up to now. She is still a very real part of our family..even among my grandchildren and my youngest son, 18 now..who never knew her. But she has opened doors for all of us that otherwise would have been shut..she has opened parts of our humanity that I believe our ancestors had..a long time ago..a sensitivity to others and a communication on a totally different level than just verbally...

Ok gims..that´s all she wrote and I am not going to correct this post either..so I hope you (and my other friends here on the forum that visit this thread) will understand what "she wrote"

P.S. Gotta admit to you that I am drinking wine mixed with water here..cause this is heavy stuff in one way..but it´s all about life really!!!
_________________________
"some sacred place.."

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#143960 - 03/05/08 06:47 PM Re: Can We Talk About Death? [Re: Edelweiss]
gims Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 3404
Loc: USA
HL, in response to your post

(hl)... I would try to shorten the process. I have no problem with the religious aspect on this. So many cultures practice it. ... in Europe that have “death” clinics… If the patient wishes to die, and the medical evidence is there, his/her wish will be granted. I support freedom of each individual to decide for him or her self.
(gims)To be expected, I did not know this. I agree, we should be able to decide for ourselves.

(hl)I was truly taken aback... battled suicidal thoughts, and still have fleeting moments with them. Would you care to share how you have overcome them?
(gims) I have a wonderful aunt who has MADE ME rethink my life. She has been right there for me for over a year, listening without a filter and without judgement. She has been a God send! The only problem with her being my counsel is that she is relative to my life. Also, I know she is truly and earnestly praying for the good of all, me included. The 'fleeting moments' are so different from the darker ones of days gone by, which are scary even to me, as I think back. For anyone to be in such states of despair is purely wrong. I'm so glad I'm beyond them, although I'm still in the healing process. 'Good counsel' would be my answer to your question.

(hl) Gims, could it be that your parents fear they may not go to heaven?
(gims) This is my very thought, along with the question, 'Are they questioning what they've been preaching all these years?' and 'Do they have doubts, too?'

(hl)This is one of the problems I have with the Christian and other religions. I hope I don’t offend anyone here by saying, I think it is truly a cruel and manipulative technique to install fear of the afterlife in a human being. How burdensome and oppressive that is. What if these beliefs are wrong and you have struggled with these thoughts your entire life.
(gims) No offense taken, from me anyway. You speak from which I think.

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#143961 - 03/05/08 06:50 PM Re: Can We Talk About Death? [Re: ladyjane]
gims Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 3404
Loc: USA
Quote:

I consider it a privelege to help people cross that threshold in as peaceful and comfortable way as possible.



You are also learning how to die, yourself, lj. How valuable is that!

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#143962 - 03/05/08 06:55 PM Re: Can We Talk About Death? [Re: Mountain Ash]
gims Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 3404
Loc: USA
Quote:

by MA - I have been on training with the Chaplain and team for our local Hospital. Like you I see it as a priveledge. Very humbling to be allow to visit ill people.
MA



I'll apply a similar to what you said to LJ, MA...
"MA, It takes a special person to work as you have. And that you are."

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