A shooting at a school in Minneapolis

Sorry to cover the post about the Derby. Please visit that one too.

Last night, one of the schools I work with, held a family Cinco de Mayo celebration. At the end of the celebration, outside in the parking lot, one latino gang member, shot at a rival member. No one was killed, thank God.

This means there was at least one gun inside a school during a family get together, with children, babies, parents, grandparents and friendly neighbors. How many other guns were inside the building, no one knows.

I am not interested in beginning a discussion about any type of gun control - none of here will ever change each other's minds - but I am interested in what you think about if guns should be okay anywhere and everywhere. In Minnesota, it is legal to carry a concealed weapon, but they are not allowed in any place that posts a sign to the contrary. Is this enough? Obviously, it did not deter this particular person from having a concealed gun inside the school.

Your thoughts, please, but without the discussion about whether guns should be legal, or not.

Oh boy Anno, this is too close to home. How frightening to have this happen in a school you work with.

As long as people are allowed to carry guns concealed on them, you will never know if they will illegally bring a gun into a building. Therefore it is the schools responsibility to control the students with metal detector devices or randomly.

If I worked in a school, I would definitely lobby for such. You must be on edge about this, and everyone's senses are probably peaked!

Today I went to the school to help the staff deal with the situation. Of course, gangs were mentioned. There had been tagging all over the building, but no one recognized the tags. It was probably an in school gang (we call them wannabees) and they can do as much, if not more damage than a real gang.

Why and how more? Because they are not as organized and do stupid things.

I have to ask, why are so few concerned enough to reply to this? (I am not challenging here, really) Is it because if there are not massive deaths it doesn't seem so real? Is it because, if it is not national news, it does not count?

This is real. It happened in the life of someone you know. No one died, but it wasn't for lack of trying. If we only pay attention to the BIG news, lots of death, and such, then people will start acting big.

Sorry, I just felt the need to sound off.

Anno,
Your concerns are being heard. It is a big deal. It is scary. It shouldn't have happened.

You have been closely involved in a life threatening situation, and that is horrendous. Whether you were actually there at the time of the shooting, or have assisted those people who were there, is one and the same thing.

You feel their fear, their pain, their shock, their healing. I admire you for helping the school community through this terrible event.

Please know that we all support you. Perhaps the only reason that there are few replies to your post is because it is difficult not to express personal views on gun laws.

Keep up the good work, the school community will need your help to get through this one.

Thanks, SharonE. I know it is difficult not to express thoughts on gun control. I just didn't see opening that can of worms, once again. Thanks for this perspective. And, thank you for your support.

Is it allowed to check these "wannabees" lockers and do body checks? I hope so. If the word spreads that this will be done, (starting immediately), that may deter carrying guns to school.

Anno that has happened to me a few times, where I may post something and no one reacts. But then it was usually when it was 'all quiet at the front'. Our controversial ladies are missing. Where is Lola, Celtic, Chatty, JJ, Eagle, Meredith, Casey, Mrs. Madness, … are they all sunbathing?

My jury is still out on this issue. I had a very good friend who was a homicide detective and he told me that until we get rid of hand guns, it isn't going to change and since he worked in that field, I tend to believe him.

However, if I lived alone in a city that had crime, I would and have owned a hand gun.

I remember when Rosie was doing commercials for KMart and began to speak out against guns and those who owned them. Well, guess who sells more guns in the U.S. than any other store...yep, KMart. They fired her.

Ann, this is as shocking as it is appalling..we grew up looking down the barrel of a rifle, I have seen things all through my lifetime that no one person should see or have to face.
Today as I look at our local news papers...I see the two main(opposing) parties stand together along with the Irish and British governments on the steps of Stormount...I feel a big wave of confused emotion..why did so many have to lose their lives before this point was reached?
The main paramilitaries in this part of Ireland have rendered their weapons obsolete and have given them up....yet shooting incidents of a non sectarian nature are on the up, as are gangs...or 'hoods' as they are known here. Mostly young, unemployed, brainwashed boys who listened to the Hard Men of Ulster and have nothing better to do with their lives, but terrorize who they decide they have a god given right to....so, no they don't get the same recognition from the press or the media here either...yet lives of hundreds of thousands are still being affected by gun culture.
Will there ever be an end to it?....I suppose I am supposed to be elated with this historical change of tides our wee island... I want to see it as a good thing and trust that all of the hate filled past will be finally put behind us...but I have seen this all before over the short time of my adult life....so pardon me for being cynical.
Basically, we have just traded one type of terrorizm for another...and like yourself Anno...I too wonder which is more dangerous and threatening.

Sorry for ranting on a bit...but this great 'historic' moment has me feeling quite scared....it will be harder to work out who the so called 'enemy' is now if my thinking is near to being accurate...then I have every darn right to be scared.

Po

Angel a chara...Celtic will pop in later on this eve with her two cents worth(and it won't have the 'oppressed Irish' ring to it)

heer it is, i just cheeked a few days ago saw the derbie and dint cheek the listing in current events sorrie anno.

wear are guns not acceptable, church i would hope...i also hope never in the same room that i have the child in...

the police, firefighters, and prison gards are legalie allowed to have guns on them when off dutie in this countrie (for their own protection becouse they all deemed as targets for terrorists). NI police are constantlie armed which is totalie diffrent from the gardie in south ireland and the rest of the uk, the police arnt armed with guns...

the knowlage of being out socialie with someone armed this alone makes me warie to be around them and verie uncomphortable....i have wondered how sane they reallie are especillie the drunker they have gotton. so i tend not to last too long in social situasion with such people, besides if they deemed as a target and i in their companie what if the gunman misses or decides to take out the whole table...In honestie i have thought about it.

Now if your talking about hoods or criminals having guns then they take them whenever a crime to be commited or if they fear revenge then they be carrieing them all the time, don't ya think?

is their any evidences either way about more or less violences via a gun if someone else is also carrieing a gun? will the 1st gunperson be more liklie to fire out of fear (that they be shot) when another has a gun? or being the onlie one with the gun gives them a feeling of power and saftie? the illegal gunmen i known (work related) are generalie so paranoid and fearfull that they are liklie to take someone out if they feel real threat....whats anyone elses thoughts?

it difficult criminals and non criminals will have totalie diffrent mindsets and thought processes around this and carrieing a gun...
all i know is personalie i don't like being in presences of anyone with a gun outside a shooting range?

phewww made it and dint mention gun control/legalitie once. I might be missing something but i don't know why people get so worked up about descussing weather guns should be legalised or not.....its onlie a view, and it dosent insult anyone who has or hasent, agrees or disagrees with it legalisasion or not....its more about how one views the world and weather one needs to feel protected via guns...or maybee i have missed something

anyway anno i know your an inteligent person and i know or trust you when you say your not trying to start a pro or agenst guns debate....

HL contriversal person lol me lol....is that a good thing??

anyway on to more important things ANNO how this affecting your talks around schools....and more more more importantlie how this effecting you as a person?

their was another thread (national prayer day) and spekermom was commenting that personal connections make the pain of a thing more painfull when theirs some slight connection to a place or a person. I would agree with that. Its also kind of fitting heer with you in your line of work, so how is it affecting you in your workrole and as a person?

Ah, it's not affecting me as a person. Is that strange? Is it possible that I have hardened to all of this type of thing?

Unfortunately, and disappointing, personally, is that things like this don't seem to have any effect. Short term - and hour or so, maybe - but long term, enough damage to make change, not so much.

I do believe that we have accepted a certain amount of violence in our lives. After the initial shock, it's no big deal. I do think this is sad. Very sad.

yea desensitisasion to this stuff becouse of high or constant exposure to it.....one thing it last a lot longer with the people shot at or killed they be effected longer by such things.

i glad to know it aint effecting you too much its easie to get fearfull and overlie fearfull to such things at times. In that case then catiouse desensitasasion (sp) be prefriable eh!

yea i don't know the answere or have a clue about what people can do about reporters etc. reporting this stuff and doing it sensitivlie thats not out to sensasionalise a situasion but take it seriouslie....

its just a shame that this stuffs in the world and how the worlds opperating at the mommnt.

well not the world just some people in the world, if ya know what i mean.

I know what you mean.

Anno, it is scary and so sad. I just read this and... WOW! I wonder if we, as parents are doing enough to raise kids with principles and respect for life. I wonder why it is so easy for kids to get guns in their hands.

Video game violence, TV violence, etc., just make people hardened, to some point, to the reality of death.

People doing these things are "calling for attention". Why is it that we wait for things like these to pay attention to those around us? Are we as parents giving enough attention to our own? Are we setting good examples? Are we loving and caring enough?

I understand that parents do their best. And a good upbringing does not guarantee someone will not screw up, but... drugs, violence, abuse, sex, pornography among other things, are the "everyday occurance". Are we taking a stand against it in our homes and communities?

Are we, as adults, the kind of person a young one can approach with their concerns and needs? Do they know we care for them and about them? Can they talk to us freely, about anything on their mind?
I've seen cases, even in kids who are raised in a christian environment, kids who frequent church, etc., who are influenced by the music nowadays, and so many other things... that have thought of and/or tried to commit suicide ! Are we doing enough?

Po and Celtic, I read about Northern Ireland's Minister Paisley declaring his province is "starting upon the road to lasting peace". I can understand your scepticism. And I too wonder, why did it take so long? Hopefully peace will last with the 'big guys' backing it up. As for the gun law subject; I don't quite understand why we can't discuss it either…except for the fact we have all ready discussed it, and nobody was willing to change her opinion.

Anno, I never cease to wonder how the most shocking news reports seem to dwindle in forgetful land after the shortest time. If I had a child going to your school I would participate in a parent group involved with arms control. Is there such a group in the school?

Where is the energy we boomers had during the Vietnam War? Remember flower power and all that stuff? I see this energy in France. The people immediately take to the streets when they don't like what's happening.

I tend to want to leave rallying to the younger college generation. It is their future…after all we are already living in our future…but they all seem too comfortable or apathetic or what? Or am I giving myself a lecture?...I'm just as gulty as the rest of 'em.

Current Case: Rock Icon Phil Spector. Successful and crazy. He's currently on trial for murdering a beautiful woman who made the mistake of having a drink with him in his home.

We can try to raise our children right and then, some maniac comes along and takes their life from them.

Phil Spector has held a hand gun to more than the one he killed and they are testifying against him now. Why didn't someone report him? This woman's life might have been saved if they had. He possessed 19 guns in his home!!!!!

Anno
I did not reply due (I think) to me trying to absorb this.Certainly not because I did not care.I had no answers.
I worked in schools since 1979 saw a lot...coped a lot and feel things are now beyond my comprehension.
Mountain ash

songbird aye i agree with what you say and young in's are so inpresionable to so much...

i don't allow l to play with toy sowerds and guns (called marshmallows is this house)and he's just 3. he can waite a while before he descovers what thse marshmallows can do i also limit his tv viewing and be mindfull as to what he watches. I chatted with lola briflie about this tonight and about the influences the news has on the young ones....same preocess (kinda) with teenagers role models peer presure and the images set up by music peeps etc. i know as a youngsteer my fav musicions had more say over my mind than my parents did...What was it just me!!! lol...don't think its much diffrrent now onlie i am older and see the effects stuff has on kids and societie has gotten more violent and extreem in nearlie everieway.

di that stories shocking....and most of all they all comming forward to testifie now when its too late.

Anno, this totally freaks me out. Are you the guidance counselor for the school district? I imagine you are directly involved. Your consideration of who else has guns is a valid one. When soemthing liek this touches so close to home, it's unsettling to say the least. What is they school system doing to keep this from happening again?

Did you see the movie Freedom Writer? You should watch it. I bet you would love it. It's about kids and gangs, much deeper, but that's waht the bottom line is.

A couple years ago, a local teacher was killed at our mall (in the garage), Towson Town Center. It's a really nice mall in a suburb of Baltimore. It's walking distance from my home. My daughter and her boyfriend had been there that very same afternoon. So many people FREAKED about it. The mall made significant changes in security as a result. The bigest change was the lighting. It is now so bright in that garage, which is a good thing.

I recall being in the mall many times after the shooting and wondering how many kids had guns in their pockets. It's a horrendous thought.

How are you doing? Sometimes these things take a couple days to sink in.

Not a guidance couselor, but I work with schools on preventing problems. Makes me feel like a didn't do such a great job with this school. I did my best, I really know that, and things happen that are out of our control.

I bothers me that we (the universal we) are so violent. What makes someone think that carrying a gun, shooting off a gun, gives you power? A police friend of mine says the shooter is really a chicken. That is much to simplistic of an answer. Somewhere along the line, we have given too much power to violence.

Is being fearful of others actually giving power to someone?

I know guns are not to blame. But what about the people that sell guns to others? Maybe if they were not as available, around the world, some of these incidents would not occur.

What about our media that sensationalizes violence? I want to be informed, but are we in overkill mode with our desire to know the gory details?

No blame here. Just want to understand how to bring this cycle of violence to an end, sooner, rather than later.

Is being fearful of others actually giving power to someone?ANNOA QUOTE

whatever one gives attension (energie) to, one gives power to it, the person or thoes situasion...So being fearfull in some sences is feeding the cycle...

ok so how to do something about anything!! when one isen't desturbed angerie or fearfull is beyond me. It seems at times those emotions are necasarie as a motivater towards action....
but yea unfortunitlie fearfull being a strong emotion dose feed it AND is more likely to be brought into ones life in someway....LOA isen't it?

is the new picture you prepared and waiting to go on holiday?
i do like it

I never allowed my kids to listen to rap music. In my opinion it's not music anyway. Hope I don't step on anyone's toes. I have no respect for a genre who's only intention is to promote violence, drugs and the degration of women.

I think, unfortunately, people will eventually homeschool their children. Lessons will come via the internet and there will be little social interaction.

I didn't homeschool my kids and am not an advocate for it. But if you get to a point where you don't know if sending your child to school is a safe thing, what's a parent to do?

We all take our lives into our own hands each day when we go out into the world. Heck, you don't even have to leave home.

They need metal detectors at schools, but unfortunately, they are very expensive and many districts don't have the funds. A security guard would be a good idea too with cameras and monitors. Kids don't need privacy at school unless they're in the restroom.
Laurel

I think the real issue is everyday violence in an "anything goes" P.C. society. For decades we have been watering down parental influence, teacher control, ethical definitions, etc etc etc.

In schools which emphasize major parental involvement, self-disipline, spiritual and/or ethical training, recognizing the brotherhood of man, and enforced codes of conduct, the percentage of violent incidents is almost nil.

There will always be a few societal misfits, but the majority of kids will turn out just fine if there is genuine attention paid to ALL their needs starting when they are very young.

i kinda like PC but not a fan of anything goes and for me there not just quite the same thing.....mind you i am not a fan of pc gone bonkers, just the type that promotes respect acceptances and nonjudment of people. I also not sure i understand the anything goes teerm as it is used in america, their may be some cultral diffrences going on heer lol.

The picture you described josie about schooling one i love to see in this or any countrie. i don't know if i will get to see it as how dose one stop the direction things are alreadie going in. Unless that pendulum thing happens when its swung as far as it can go and then starts going back to times and ways that have been.
Laural the description of everieone being home schooled is scarie couse how would single kid families learn about appropriate interaction and treatment towards others, maybee it works in bigger families but i just find more and more families or parents wanting less time with their kids and less responcibilitie concerniong them or am i just feeling grumpie today!

Anyway it also be a dream for me too that kids educasion in all respects emotional spiritual moral was catered for instead of the pursuite of intelectule exilences....for the additional curriculum programmes to cater for this how much would it cost? Whos standerds of moralitie would they be focused on and would they trulie be inclusive of all gods children.

would the governments be willing to fund them? or just happie enough to poor monie into building institusions and ongoing costs of prisons?...Would parents be willing to go too to get our skills and teachnikes and our own attitudes to people and child rearing improved.

well we rant over and i promises to curb my cynical head today hopfullie get back to a much more hopefulle place...

laa lllaaaaa la laaaaa seeee their alreadie

Sorry I've been among the missing...busy and health stuff. Nice to be missed :-))

Josie, you said, "In schools which emphasize major parental involvement, self-disipline, spiritual and/or ethical training, recognizing the brotherhood of man, and enforced codes of conduct, the percentage of violent incidents is almost nil."

I would add to that the teaching of non-violent communication so people can find a way to talk about real differences and find real solutions to divisive problems. I agree that a community based school where the emphasis is on all getting involved is good. How can we move it forward?

As Celtic pointed out, it's not only the kids. It's parents and other adults as well. We don't always do so well with our own code of conduct with each other. Children learn by what we do, not by what we say.

I have been working with my school district to implement a non-violence curriculum for 3 years. I have the funds to purchase the materials. I am a trained trainer, so no cost to anyone. The materials are easy to use, fun for both the kids and teachers and are grounded in good research.

Less than 10% of our schools have taken the materials.

With NCLB's emphasis on testing, and insisting on teaching children concepts they are not developmentally ready for (like reading and comprehending at age 5, multiplying fractions and comprehending when to multiply fractions at age 6 and 7), there is no time to teach anything but academics. Many schools don't even have recess anymore and gym has been cut to once a week, for one quarter for many children.

Is this right? Are we creating problems when we should be preventing problems? I also believe that children are dropping out of school out of pure boredom.

I can't believe what I'm reading! Cut recess? Why that was my favourite subject!
The schools won't take free material to support non-violence? This looks like a news headline. Are people aware of this? Maybe you can let it leak out to a reporter looking for a good story.

Our society seems to only want a band-aid after the crime, not before. It's the same way with domestic violence. It gets old.

All across the country we have thousands of parochial, independent, proprietary, charter and magnet schools which emphasize ethics, personal accountability, acceptance, along with academics. Instead of throwing money at public systems which clearly do not work, I'd like to see school administrators take their cues from school systems which DO work very well (usually on far less money) and implement some of their ideas.

I (who was financially poor and lived in a ROUGH neighborhood)attended parochial school for the first 9 years of my academic life. Most of us became good citizens and went on to higher education. On my first day in public school, I was offered a joint and saw no one stand in respect when the teacher entered the classroom. After a week, one teacher pointed to me and said, "You must have come from a parochial school. I can see it in the way you conduct yourself and in the way you do your schoolwork..."

Many years later I sent my son to parochial grade school, where the standards had relaxed a bit, but once again, self-discipline, comportment and brotherhood helped to shape his character. A very high percentage of his class went on to become personal and community successes. He attended his last 3 years of high school in what is considered to be a "good" public high school. Some of his H.S. classmates are top of the line today, while TOO MANY others are self-medicating and chronically floundering in their personal lives while pushing age 30.

In nearby Philadelphia, the average daily public school absenteeism rate is above 32%. Are they absent because they are "bored?" Are they absent because they lack codes of conduct and parental supervision? Are they absent because P.C. society says we are not doing enough for "certain segments" of society? Are they absent because many teachers are too tenured to care? Are they absent because the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater?

I'm not a P.C. thinker. I think for myself. Always have. Always will. And I'm thinking we need to get the "baby" back.

Public schools certainly failed both my children. Both were bored out of their minds. One, fortunately, found what he needed in sports, but he's still no where near where he could be in life.

The other one -- the alternative thinker and addict -- stopped going pretty much in 8th grade. The good news is that (after 7 other programs), he's finally in a good program that really forces him to toe the line and teaching life skills at the same time. He's now using his mind and realizes he has options.

It's a tough line, but it's a shame when there's no time for non-violent communication or recess and plenty of time for tests. And what are we testing? We are trying to provide robots to support the corporations.

I'm a bit cynical about schools. I like what you said, Josie, about learning from schools that do work. However, the luxury that many of these alternative schools have that public schools don't, is that they can get rid of the kids who don't conform. Although, the kids self-select and drop out.

I'm baffled as to how to fix this. I know good teachers are taking early retirement because they don't want to teach tests.

But considering only 20% of a person's success is based on IQ and the attendent "concrete" learning, it appears we are missing the boat somewhere.

But there ARE public schools and classes developed for pupils with "special needs" of all kinds. Trouble is, we are soooo P.C. and watered down about anything and everything these days, no one community or group of parents will stand up and lobby hard for needed reforms. Throwing taxpayer dollars on a sinking system will not make the problems go away. Money is not what's needed. Responsible parents working with a well-structured system to assure a proper learning environment conducive to ethical growth and academic development for students is so sorely needed.

In Philadelphia which has a daily 32% student absentee rate, I'd call the parents at home or work and get support from them to find and return the student to school. If there is resistance, the school should have a place where the courts would require a mandatory treatment program for the "special needs" parents and their offspring, to understand the importance of a proper education (which would include personal accountability as well as basic academics). There are so many ways to make the system work. If there is enough interest.

My son knew in the 80s and 90s that his good life in the home was contingent on good behavior in school. Expectations were laid out. He was to try his best. He was to be on his best behavior. Failing at trying or failing at good behavior meant consequences at home, which we stuck to. As the school supported us, we supported them. My son had a voice, but he knew his parents had the final word.

Today I see parents cell-phone their too-young kids home alone, and I am sad. While many parents must work to support household basics, how many people work for "things" and to keep one step ahead of using too many credit cards???

It all starts with us being prudently responsible for ourselves in addition to the children we choose to have.

We have three children, all whom attended different schools because they all learn differently and have different interests. We've had our children in public, parochial and private schools. I'm grateful we had options. There are good and bad in each school system.

The way I have seen education at its best is when the teachers are enthusiastic about teaching, the kids want to learn, and the parents are doing their share at home. Getting all of this to work together for every kid is near impossible and I blame it on the parents. I'm sorry, but I think it all begins at home. Parents must be more involved in their children's education,and usually,when they are,it works. They have control over consequences in the home, and if the teacher is viewed at apathetic, they have a voice at the school to make changes. I feel sorry for the kids who get ragged on becasue their parents haven'tught them te importance of a good education or how to respect thier elders. Some kids get labeled as young as kindergarten and I think it's so unfair.

Some parents send their kids to school just to get rid of them for however long they can and don't give a hoot how they do, or if they are turning into troublemakers. They believe its the schools job to raise their kids when they are in class. That is the trouble with the society of children coming up today, they have no boundries to rely on.

chatty, no boundaries...bingo. I find it so sad. Unfortunately, I would be very picky about where I taught if I were a teacher. A part of me would want to tackle the public school system to make a difference, but another part of me knows it would be one tough job. I have so much respect and admiration for teachers.

My eldest daughter turns 36 this year...I vividly recall a conversation I had with her third grade teacher. The woman informed me, if she were twenty years younger, she would abandon teaching for a different career. Why? She told me that in the past few years,(this was 1978-79) she had seen a definite decrease in parent participation, at the school. She stated that our changing times were having a detrimental affect on family, in that more and more young mothers were opting to enter the work force. She knew of young children who started out for school in the morning, sans a parent's presence, who arrived home in the afternoon to the same circumstance. As she stated to me, 'These children are raising themselves, and you can see the result of this lack of guidance, in their behavior and in their progress in school.'

Social Progress often brings with it bad, as well as good.

I can only make some observations from personal experience. I've noticed what seems to be a definite influence of social engineering starting as early as preschool. I don't know who the social engineers are but I'm assuming they are those with the most money and power in this country and maybe in others also..with interest in the US.
Not to sound too conspiracy theory oriented, but its too easy to put the blame on both the teachers and the parents. The "family" has changed in the last two decades. Mom can no longer afford to stay at home. Housing is freaking out of range for the average person so they have to live in apartments or group together with other family members...in my neighborhood alone there are three families living in a two bedroom house!

I see houses advertised in the low $200,000's and I'm thinking my God! It must be a palace! I paid 72,000 for my house and can barely afford my payments. Both parents have to work in most cases and the jobs are mostly unfulfilling and tiring. The same educational system that grooms leaders also grooms worker bees because without the drones and workers the corporate bottom line wouldn't be acceptable.
Mom and dad come home tired. Then they see the school heaping homework on first graders so their test scores will be adequate enough to make the school system look good so they can get more government money.. When the child forgets his folder, he is penalized, when he misses school, he has to have a doctor's slip and on and on...the parents are punished when the child doesn't follow every jot and tittle of the law's set forth by the school system.
The schools are struggling to meet strigent guidelines set forth by someone or some agency.

Meantime parents, families and children are paying through the nose for daycare, they are stressed and becoming more and more fat and ill, the divorce rate is 1 in 3 marriages.

The crime rate is escalating and more and more people and younger and younger are going on antidepressants. The gap between the filthy ritch and the poor is getting wider and wider.

Its no wonder kids are carrying guns to school. Its no wonder seemingly normal everyday people are going off the bean and behaving abnormally. Drug use is rising and at younger and younger ages.

We need to be let out of the pressure cooker. Paid more for jobs well done. More moms allowed to stay home, socialized medicine, cheaper costs for higher education, parents encouraged to stay together...etc

Its like doing the limbo and someone keeps lowering the bar...limbo lower now...limbo even lower now...eventually the dancers will fall backwards and won't be able to get up. Its happened before in history and great civilizations have fallen.

In defense of parents...:-))
I cared about my kids in school, although I was a working mom. My husband was at home or there was day care. We showed up for PTA meetings. However, I still had a child who was truant and I had no idea where he was. In fact, the school didn't even call me to tell me that he was truent. Not that I could have done much -- he was a wiley coyote.

However, I think that NewLeaf makes some really good points. I would have liked to be even more involved in school and home part time. But there's no way I could have afforded to live in the house we lived in and take care of 5 kids unless I worked. (My husband's money went to his ex-)

Absolutely Casey, there are parents who are able to reach inside themselves, and pull out that 'extra' for their children, regardless of the fact that they both work full-time jobs outside the home. Not any easy task, when you have both parents, or in so many cases, only one parent, exhausted at the end of the work day, returning home to punch in for their 'second' job of parenting.

I see the children in my neighborhood arriving home everyday, after school. I know they are entering empty homes. I see their parents pulling into their driveways hours later. Seven o'clock p.m. is their average arrival time. The schools here have after-school programs, but these shut-down at five p.m. I know of no one who leaves work before five.

Most of these parents work six days a week. I often wonder just when they have time to 'parent'. One mother told me she and her husband average three hours a day, with their children, on weekdays. Weekends are spent on the run, taking care of errands, and making a dent in housework, all the while feeling as though they are always behind on everything. Before she knows it, it's Sunday evening and time to get ready for the next week's grind. This is the average life of today's family.

Newleaf, you see it all very clearly...the middle class in this country is on the verge of extinction. We are regressing to a time in our history when there were but two classes, rich and poor. According to the College Board's Trends in College Pricing 2006, the average cost of a 4-year degree at a private college today is more than $30,000 per year. And with tuition on the rise, that same education could cost more than $260,000 12 years from now. The average American is being shut out of newer home buying, health care is the biggest money-making business in this country, we are paying more and more for products and services, while being constantly sold on the idea we need more and more of these to fullfill our American Dream. Believe me, that recent hike in credit card minimum payments was merely the first. The average American family is becoming more and more indebted to these slices of plastic, out of necessity. Empty-Nesters are seeing more and more adult children moving back in, often accompanied by children of their own. Recent college graduates are finding it impossible to find living quarters, due to outrageously high rents in the areas where jobs are available.

We're all in trouble, and it's going to get much worse, before it begins to get better. One of my pet peeves recently, is the hype concerning the Boomer Generation. 'Invest your life savings! Jump in and start your own business! Let go the grip you have on whatever you have been able to save, during your lifetime! Buy that million dollar Dream Home! Retiring? Who needs that! Get out there and keep on working, earning, and above all, Spending!' Yeah, right! I guess this hype is meant for all of the Boomers who have that million+$ saved-up for retirement, or for the ones who have been brain-washed into the old 'die with your workboots on' mentality.

Great thougths ladies. i started a book last night that is going to be ineteresting, to say the least - The Feminine Mistake. I posted soemthing about it about a month ago. I am finally getting around to reading it. It's very controversial, so I am curious.

Two other books that share what it's like to raise kids and work in a two parent family are:

The Bitch in the House
The Bastard on the Couch

I read both and found it sad to hear what is going on in households around the country where both parents work to maintain the comfortable lifestyle, or any lifestyle at all.

Ready for some good reading? Check them out.

Yes, many fine points have been made about how expensive it is to live certain lifestyles today. That is certainly a topic for discussion....My mother was at home and my father was a blue-collar worker. Seven of us lived in a small apartment, which usually changed from year to year.

In fact, I find it a bit humorous that it is considered a modern day social ill if a family cannot afford to buy a home. Back in the 50s and 60s where I lived in the Northeast, many people could not afford a home and it was not a sign of financial or social ruination. Our family could not afford a car or even a phone. We walked or took a bus when the need arose. Restaurant food was a treat reserved for after a family funeral. If a child complained about being bored or depressed, a parent provided plenty of work to get the mind, body and spirit re-directed.

My major point is that education and self-discipline starts in the home, no matter what one's socio-economic status. If children are created in a family, the family must instill the right set of values. The school complements and expands what is initially taught in the home.

I maintain that living within your means today is still a good starting point. Whether you live in a home, rooming house, apartment, or with relatives, you CAN be a responsible adult who is raising responsible children.

Jeannine: I read your excellent point about the middle class getting squeezed. I see the main squeeze as coming from paying more and more taxes for programs which do not work. I also see a tremendous need for healthcare reform. For example, as a nurse I saw way too many youngsters having babies at taxpayer expense, while the cop and his wife paid extra insurance premiums to cover not only their own newborn's bills, but they also covered the bills for the youngsters who decline to practice birth control.

I see where you note the expense of private college. Since college is a privilege for those who can afford it, any person can go to a local community college and take one course at a time if need be, while working to support themselves.

My husband spent the last 30 years taking college courses as he worked throughout the decades, and he received his bachelors degree last year. One guy was 92 when my son graduated college in 2004. (My son went through the military and took out loans while working and attending school.)

The old adage, "Where there is a will, there is a way," still works today.

Yes, we need to revamp the system back to individual responsibility. The aged, truly handicapped, and sudden emergency situations need all of us to pitch in. Somehow, we made the government (euphemism for taxpayers) responsible for everybody's poor choices. When does it end? Soon the middle class will be paying so much for so many, there will be few self-sufficient people left.

Socialism is not the answer. Individual accountability is. Once that happens, I guarantee in time the violence problem will diminish....

You make some good points, Josie.

I believe in individual responsibility - but only if all things are equal. And they are not. Not right now.

Yes, you can get an education cheaply, if not for free. Where there is a will there is a way - but only if you think you have a chance. Internal strength is part environmental and part heridity. Your husband has it, but not everyone has had the opportunities to learn it or inherit it. I think it's bigger than that simple line.

I agree with you whole heartedly that education begins at home. But, what do you do when it doesn't begin there? Reality is, not everyone has equal opportunities in our country.

As for socialism.....my european friends.....is govenment health a viable solution? Is it working? I am enamored with the idea, but what are the strengths and the weaknesses?

I find myself stradling the fence on the issue of individualism vs. socialism -- we probably need elements of both. In very poor areas, people don't know that they have a choice. Their lives are boxed in and their parents, who don't know about choices either, can't teach them. Only a person who can reach them can do that (see Freedom Writers).

I totally believe in a government sponsored health care. Social Security recipients get their checks and so do Medicare recipients. The overhead for Medicare is less than it is for private insurance plans. Social Security funds were chugging along just fine until they decided to have the funds become part of the general budget back in the 1960s at some point.

Statistically, violence increases during wartime. That's part of what we are seeing right now.

And yet, there is a need for people to own their own responsibility and get out of the blame game. At some point, if you had a rotten childhood, you need to let that go and move on. The idea of living within my means is a good one -- some day, I'll even put it into practice (LOL--can you see where my education needs to be!). Actually, this is a choice I'm making right now -- doing the work I love, risking what I have made in the tech industry and living off the assets while I build the business.

There are points, I believe, in everyone's life, where they need a helping hand. There are many places to look for it -- family, church, and yes, government organizations. We are all in this together.

I just finished reading the book, The Gift of the Jews (it's an old one). In it the author discusses the idea that the commandment not to murder extends to helping the poor. For if we do not feed them, and they starve to death, we are committing murder.

It's a cunondrum, with no simple answer...

The politics of a country is a broad issue.I believe that the cost of homes means that two parents work to put a roof over their heads.
In UK the right to buy was intoduced and their a fewer rented homes available.So two parents working is a fact of life.Then couples want to have the lifestyle to match the house.
Its sad that afforable rented property is rare ad that children bear the brunt of changing childcare patterns.
I firmly believe that bonds with parents are strenghthened in the early years and that a mortgage means both parents have to work...leaving childcare to older siblings and whatever is available locally.
mountain ash

Anno
The Beveridge Report Post ww2 brought about much of our welfare stare in the UK.
The National Health Service has met my needs well.As a boomer I have had the benefit of medical attention.In the future with an aging population there may be changes.We can opt for private medical care(I have when necessary) but everyone will be cared for by our system.In Scotland Free personal care for the elderly exists.
I have summerised what Beveridge saw as the way forward in
1945.


The Five Giants

The Beveridge Report and the welfare state

The concept of the welfare state refers to the state's provision of public measures and support to achieve basic living standards and help those in need across society. Ideally, the welfare state aims to relieve poverty, reduce inequality, and achieve greater social integration and solidarity.

The Beveridge Report was designed to counter the five giants of illness, ignorance, disease, squalor, and want. It considered the whole question of social insurance, arguing that want could be abolished by a system of social security organised for the individual by the state. Beveridge recommended the establishment of a national health service, national insurance and assistance, family allowances, and stressed the importance of full-employment.

Although not entirely as Beveridge wished, the measures were adopted and formed the basis of the British post-war Welfare State. Family allowances were enacted in 1945, and National Insurance and the National Health Service in 1946; full employment became government policy. Together, these developments created the welfare state, a system of social security guaranteeing a minimum level of health and social services.
Montain ash