Casey.... thanks for your questions, i was specifically referring to ..

a)an apparent legal CIA policy of 'extra ordinary rendition'. Referred to by others as the outsourcing of torture.

b)the continual holding of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, where the excellent laws of the US legal system do not seem to apply.

To your other questions .. i believe all people are one and the same, in that, what is necessary for me, is undoubtedly necessary for the other.. be it food, shelter, clean water, clean air, safe housing, affordable medical care, educational opportunities,protection from abuse and exploitation, and the list could go on.

These things are far removed from the majority of the world's people .. there have been decades to make changes, yet that hasn't happened. I think it is because fear rules the world more often than common sense. But i could be wrong.. thanks again Casey for the opportunity to answer.

[ December 24, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Bluebird, in the aftermath of 9/11 the world witnessed the absolute 'loving, giving and protective' nature of your people. Regardless of race, religion or whatever your people rushed to the aid of those decimated because of that criminal attack. And those acts of compassion were examples of leadership people all over the world could only admire and respect.

But are you correct in thinking other nations are 'jealous'? There are more than a few other nations which also have open democratic systems.

Is it not possible that if Saudi Arabia used their 'charitable' funds from their oil riches to fund clean water lines, sewer systems, hospitals, and open educational systems in various parts of the world instead of mosques governed by extreme islamic fundamentalists, maybe there would be less hate towards the west?

Maybe if the foreign policy of various governments reflected the same standards they expected for their own nation, there would be less hate in the world ?

Maybe if certain males in various parts of the world extended to the other half of their population the same rights and privileges they want for themselves, there would be less poverty in their own homeland and therefore less resentment towards others in the world ?

[ December 24, 2005, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

And it came to pass...

"May you always live in interesting times"

It's not up to me to decide what I want my president to do as a nation.

Our tax dollars pay the salaries of our president's advisors. I think that's what we rely on them to do, to make the right decisions. From what a majority of the American public feels those have not been wise decisions.

The polls indicate a large percentage of Americans feel they have been misled on many matters of grave import.

[ December 24, 2005, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

Greetings ladies,

The New York Times came out with a new article today on the amount of data collected by eavesdropping without a warrant. The amount appears to be much greater than anyone in the administration has previously admitted, and it doesn't appear to be limited to outgoing calls to Al Qaeda and affiliate destinations, as they claimed . . . If this information is true, here are two more lies and a bunch more deceit. When are "We the People" going to start holding President Bush and those involved accountable on this? A full investigation is in order, the sooner the better.


Spy Agency Mined Vast Data Trove, Officials Report

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/24/politics/24spy.html?hp&ex=1135486800&en=7e76956223502390&ei=5094&partner=homepage

quote:

---

. . . according to current and former government officials.

The volume of information harvested from telecommunication data and voice networks, without court-approved warrants, is much larger than the White House has acknowledged, the officials said. It was collected by tapping directly into some of the American telecommunication system's main arteries, they said.

As part of the program approved by President Bush for domestic surveillance without warrants, the N.S.A. has gained the cooperation of American telecommunications companies to obtain backdoor access to streams of domestic and international communications, the officials said.

---

Apparently, this newly discovered form of eavesdropping is being done on communications "within the country", not just to and from overseas locations, and they appear to be done on perhaps thousands (or more) citizens who don't have affiliations to anything - they're data mining.

quote:

---

. . . the N.S.A. has sought to analyze communications patterns to glean clues from details like who is calling whom, how long a phone call lasts and what time of day it is made, and the origins and destinations of phone calls and e-mail messages. Calls to and from Afghanistan, for instance, are known to have been of particular interest to the N.S.A. since the Sept. 11 attacks, the officials said.

This so-called "pattern analysis" on calls within the United States would, i many circumstances, require a court warrant if the government wanted to trace who calls whom.

The use of similar data-mining operations by the Bush administration in other contexts has raised strong objections, most notably in connection with the Total Information Awareness system, developed by the Pentagon for tracking terror suspects, and the Department of Homeland Security's Capps program for screening airline passengers. Both programs were ultimately scrapped after public outcries over possible threats to privacy and civil liberties.

---

There's too many additional points of interest to list them all.


This next article by Howard Fineman of Newsweek is excellent, telling of what he predicts from all this. (The "I" word is "Impeach".) Don't forget to read page 2, that's where the predictions are.


The 'I Word'
Expect 2006 to offer up Nixon-era nastiness and a chorus of calls to impeach Bush.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10564288/site/newsweek/from/RS.1/


The following article by Arlene Getz of Newsweek cites an interesting correlation between what is happening here and what happened during apartheid in South Africa. I particularly find fascinating her comments on the American attitude on what's happening.


Where’s the Outrage?
Bush’s defense of his phone-spying program has disturbing echoes of arguments once used by South Africa’s apartheid regime. Why Americans should examine the parallels.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562528/site/newsweek/from/RS.2/


I keep thinking that since this is the holiday season that the situation will calm down and the stories subside until after the New Year. That remains to be seen. I do agree that this is indeed an interesting time to be alive. It certainly is not boring, unless one considers that maybe humanity should have grown beyond all this millennia ago, and that the present situation is predictable.

In spite of all this negativity that is going on, regardless of how you celebrate (or don't celebrate) this time of year, I would like to wish you peace in a prosperous future.

[ December 25, 2005, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: Vi ]

I've heard those accusations on network news and read them in the NYT.

Now they're links on here too. Seems like a waste.

smile

Posting the stories here gives those who are participating in this thread a chance to read more of the stories. The regular media channels give only small snippets of information - because of the time limit they have for each story. Some of us like to see who said what, how it was said, if the various arms of the media agree or not. And it's easy to forget exactly what anyone said and how they said it. The slant the news is given depends on the bias of the particular broadcast network. I do not consider gaining more information and a wider scope a waste. I consider it essential in the effort to become fully informed - which is my goal. There are also some people who don't listen to the news and some people who don't read the NYT. Several people on this thread have expressed gratitude that the information is here. Also, some people don't have the time to check all the sources themselves.

I'm including the links as a substanitation of the thread and the facts, not just my opinion and conjecture.

I thought the hilary topic was hilarious and all in fun, but I'm so tired of politics as usual. It's Christmas, the season of peace and good will even to our country and our leader. Seems like we have so much to be thankful for at this time of year.

Here's why the courts were avoided by President Bush.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/12/25/MNGCEGD95C1.DTL

smile

[ December 25, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Vi, thank you for all the information.

Hello all- when Vi started this topic she honestly warned all that it had political content
There are those of us who are passionately involved in politics and those who aren't . Choose your forums wisely. ladies-PEACE