I really need to know if anyone else here at BWS has had the same thoughts as I have been having lately. I do not mean to bring anyone down, but it is something that has been eating away at me for a long time.

This is basically a spin off from the "Grieving Multiple Loss" thread in the "Loss" section. I just didn't want to hijack the thread.

It just seems like I have no life at all, and it has been a domino effect for the past 4 years. I am afraid to get involved in any hobbies, I am afraid to make any kind of plans. I am not talking anything elaborate; I am talking about the simple things. Each time I set out to do anything, someone in my family has their drama and I am expected to “fix-it”. The latest seems to be several family members who are mad at each other and they are trying to drag me in the middle. I feel they are all so mad at each other over stupid petty things. I try so hard to eliminate the stress in my life and it just seems to follow me. I have a mother who is grieving. Not only that, she is constantly complaining about having to do things herself now (my dad did everything for her), and how she is overwhelmed. I understand that and I am sympathetic. Every time I try to help or suggest something, she will find so many excuses as to why I can’t help her or why it isn’t a good idea. I have my brother and his wife feuding with my aunt, my aunt lives near me and they want to put me in the middle. My daughter can’t seem to make simple decision and calls me constantly wanting me to make suggestions for her. When I tell her I don’t know unless I know the entire situation or I am asking questions to try to understand, she snaps and yells at me. It just goes on and on…. I just wish they all would leave me alone and stop using me as a punching bag for situations out of control and not my fault.

I have to admit something I only told my husband. Before I had my surgery to remove my tumor, I was hoping it was cancer, and I wanted it to be terminal. I am so tired and cannot take it anymore.

I am already on medication and I have a therapist. I really want to get through this, I just don’t know how.

I just wanted to know if others have felt this way at some point and if they eventually get their life back. I hope someone can tell me how to just let this all go. It just seems like everyone wants a piece of me. Every time I stand up for myself, I get attacked and I am besides myself and it is pulling me down.

Thanks,
Cathi

Cathi, I can so relate to all that you have written...yes, I've been there, felt the same feelings, and wished the same dark wish. I want to be able to respond better than I will be able to right now, because I'm tired and brain-fogged. But I wanted to acknowledge your post.

My way of coping was first to completely hibernate...I literally shut myself away from everyone and everything. But I was totally burned out, broken and unable to function because of severe fatigue, depression, grief and some physical thing we never did figure out (high white blood count). Anyway, eventually I went on meds and into therapy. I felt like my life was a complete train wreck and that I (self) had been completely enmeshed in the wreckage...I honestly didn't believe that I would be able to extricate myself intact from that utter devastation. It took hard work, determination and complete change of focus for me to find my way out and onto solid ground.

Such a withdrawal isn't possible or feasible for everyone, and it has its own ripple effect. But what I DID learn that might be valuable is that it's absolutely essential to learn how to put up the perimeters, set boundaries and be diligent in not allowing ANYONE to break through those boundaries without your express permission. You can't change them (other people), you can only change yourself, and it's entirely up to you to establish and then enforce those boundaries. YOU GET TO DECIDE how much abuse you're going to take. Warn people...and then walk away when they push beyond those boundaries.

You might be afraid to do that, to enforce boundaries on the people you love...but the alternative is far worse...once you're gone, you're gone and there's no chance for a do-over. If the only other choice in your mind is death/escape, then it's time to start rebuilding and changing your life so that it's a life that you WANT TO LIVE! Change everything that isn't working for you. Change the people in it. Change how far they're allowed to step inside your boundaries. Change how you stay - or walk away - from toxic situations. Suicide is one way to change - changing your life and your focus and your boundaries so that it's YOUR LIFE is another way to change.

From someone who has tried both, I can tell you that choosing life was absolutely the right answer for me, and paying any price at all for all the hard work and changes I've made to re-create my life has been worth every heartache and tear shed for the losses along the way. I love my life, I love my newfound self, I love my newfound sense of freedom from all that chained and encumbered and toxified me before.

Others will have other solutions. Other ways of coping. You get to pick and choose what will click, and you get to change direction if one direction doesn't work...you get to take all the rubble that surrounds you and build a new life for yourself. It's worth it...I think the suicide wish is camoflage for a wish for change of scenery, change of perspective, change of lifestyle. Use it as the launching pad for the next phase of your life.

First step in my opinion, is to set those boundaries and stick to them. Hibernate if you need to, go on a retreat, take a trip somewhere to refresh your spirit and mind and perspective. But at the very least, walk away from the toxicity whenever you can...it's your life you're saving when you walk away from the people who would pull you down into the quicksand.

Holding you in prayer...and care...and love.

I love you so much Eagle, you really went out of your way and took your time to help me, even though you were tired. This is more than my family has ever done for me. The only two people who have ever understood me was my dad and Richard. One of them isn't here anymore, I guess that is what makes losing dad so hard. He really knew me and listened to me. I find myself so many times wanting to pick up the phone to ask him for some advise, until I realize he isn't here anymore.

Most of your advise is something I have worked on for a long time. It really worked for awhile, but I slipped and I need to refine this and work on it some more.

I might start off by hibernating a little. I say that because I have to work, I am actually okay with that, at least at my workplace I am treated with respect. I can hibernate from all the drama by turning my phone off at certain times, not jumping and running to go "fix it" for someone, maybe if I make this my New Years resolution and really work on it.

Unfortunately, the way I am drowning right now, I don't want to be here anymore. There have been times I went to bed hoping I will never wake up. Having said this, I really do not want to have this feeling, I want to live. But I want to live, not just exist as a piece of furniture or machinery. So Eagle, you know exactly what I mean.

Setting boundaries is a weakness of mine.

Here is an example, I haven't been able to go on a vacation for nearly 4 years. I mean a real vacation, not take time off for this crisis and that crisis, illnesses. I mean go on a trip for enjoyment. I haven't seen my best friend I had while living Germany for 16 years. She is living in New Mexico now, she has asked me to come and see her. I am dying to go see her, plus I have always wanted to go to New Mexico. I am just hoping I can plan on this without other things coming up. Everytime I have planned on a trip, I am being pulled to the next crisis. What happens with that? I have to use up my leave time from work, and there isn't anything left, and what money I would saved would go to whatever the crisis is all about.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not blaming others. This will only change when I change the way I react to these situations.

Does anyone know of any resources out there for setting boundaries? I truly need to work on this.

Thanks again for taking the time Eagle.

Love and Hugs,
Cathi

Cathi, responding about the trips...JUST DO IT! Make the reservations for the time period that works, and then literally turn a blind eye and deaf ear to everything else. You just tell people that you've bought a non-refundable plane ticket and have to go. And then get on the plane. Not only will you have the change of scenery, you'll also feel a sense of empowerment and freedom, a sense that "I can do this!", I'm the master of my own life. Because you ARE. Ultimately, everybody else's messes are theirs to clean up. We do the best to help each other out of them, but at some point, you are allowed to live your own life the way you want to!!! You really are the master of your own life, and you really do get to choose how to live it. If you want to travel, do it. Make the reservations and then go...literally put your hand up to anyone who might deter you and say, NOT THIS TIME!

I know it's not easy, but oh, Cathi, it's so worth it when you get the hang of it!!

I completely agree with Eagle. You will be happier if you learn to set boundaries. I do with Dennis, who wants me to retire and be at his beck and call all day. I refuse, and he knows I mean it. This is the only way that the two of us can have any type of real relationship.

I did the same for my Mother for the past few months. She would have loved it if I had stopped by each evening after work. I simply said No, that I would see her each Friday (I cut down to 4 days a week at work) and every Sunday. I would call her 2 times a week. She knew that I meant it, and was very nice about it.

I believe that you really need to mean what you say. Tell your family that they can only call you with good news. Refuse to listen to any mean messages. Perhaps tell them you will only answer the phone during the hours of 7 and 8pm. Then do that.

I know, these are my ways of dealing with life, and all of it's craziness. Each of us is different. But I made a decision when Dennis first got sick, that I would choose happiness over being miserable any day. I work at it. Some days it is very difficult, but for me, at least, it is possible.

What is it Dr. Phil says...we teach others how to treat us! It's so true and I used to respond to my oldest daughter's crisis...one after the other and she never appreciated it. I just pulled away and she knows why.

I work with battered women and they don't set boundaries until they learn how and finally take that first step and their families and children don't like it at all but the women are so much happier and begin to feel good about themselves. It changes their lives.

Oh gosh, girl...take that NM trip! Do it for yourself. You need a getaway and I'm betting it will give you a new perspective on life.

Eagle, I was thinking of doing this same thing. It seems the only way I will be able to do this is have something inanimate (the Printed ticket/flight Itinerary) in my hand to “seal the deal”. I don’t know why, but I have always wanted to go to New Mexico and now I have the opportunity.

Okay, here is another scenario and what I plan on doing about it. Please let me know what you would do. Here is the scenario, I just mentioned this trip on Thanksgiving Day to my aunt. One of her daughter’s, Renee (my cousin), lives in Utah. Here is what she says to me right away, “Oh, you should try to go and see Renee in Utah since you will be close.” I answered, “That would be a possibility”, then later on I was upset she put me in that position. My aunt will be upset if I do not go and see Renee. Don’t get me wrong, I love my cousin, but this is a trip I want to take and relax, catch up with my friend and do some sightseeing! I plan on not mentioning this trip to her again, but if she ever mentions it, I will have to tell her what I just said here. If she gets offended, I will have to tell her this isn’t about her, then excuse myself. Would this be a way to set boundaries? I know it’s absurd I am even asking this, but this has always been my weakness, I just do not want to hurt anyone’s feelings. Plus, I am so tired of arguing and having to defend myself constantly.

Anno, I appreciate you taking the time with me. I hadn’t even thought of a schedule for calls. This is a very good idea!

Dianne, it’s the same with me as far as my daughter is concerned. I have to pull away; I no longer have the resources because she has sapped it out of me with her crisis. Mine hasn’t appreciated it either and I am working with a debt counselor because of the debt this has gotten me into.

Anne, you hit the nail on the head. I just want it to stop!

I appreciate everyone sharing their experience with me and giving me many great suggestions. This is why I posted this, I needed guidance in what steps to take and figure out where I am going wrong. I in no way wanted to post this as a “poor me baby”. Thanks ladies for not reacting as if I was being a “poor me baby”.

I love you all a lot!

Cathi

Good for you - you sound ready to make a change! You go girl.

Cathi, sounds great. If anyone comes back to you about the trip to Utah, tell them that you only have the resources and energy for one trip right now and that you'll do Utah later (just don't tell them how much later...vagueness is an easy way to start setting boundaries when you're afraid of offending people...as you get more comfortable/adept at it, your answers can be more defined - or not!) I find the word "later" is a good way to keep my boundaries without going into any details that might inadvertently rub someone the wrong way. I just never have the stamina or energy to deal with people's guilt trips or constantly explain my reasons, so I just say "I'll do it later when I have the resources".

I've been to New Mexico, years ago. It's a wonderful place to go...take in as much as you can, and enjoy the peacefulness of nature there. Keep us posted!

I like that advice to take steps toward your vacation. Maybe once you do that, some other goals will spring forward, which you'll be able to deal with, one day at a time.

Like you, I'm a classic enabler and attract people who are unbelievably needy. I remember Dr Phil asking one such person, "How's that working for you? What are YOU getting out of doing so much for others and not making any time for yourself?"

I realized that after so much loss (see multiple-loss-thread), I needed to feel that I still mattered, that I could make a difference, that I could still feel alive on some level.

With professional help, I learned that I can matter to me and that is not a selfish way to be. I can be kind to myself, and have a life making me smile.

Every day is not perfect. But I know that if I live to see tomorrow, it just may be better. And that is what I wish for you. Many more better tomorrows.

Here are some links I found on Google for setting boundaries, if you feel like sorting through some:

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS351&q=how+to+set+boundaries&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10

Anno, thanks for the encouragement. Last night when I made this post I was so down and felt like drowning. I really needed direction.


Eagle, this is a great suggestion, and it is the truth. Kind of like giving a simple reason why I can’t attend something…”something came up”, I’ve done that!
You hit the nail right on the head, my family does guilt very well. No matter how much I have done or do…never good enough. I just wish I came to this entire conclusion many years ago. Another thing I have had to deal with my whole life…emotional blackmail. Only now to find out, they were merely threats and nothing more. Maybe this is the root of why I have been this enabler.

Josie, I have set a short cut to the link you gave me on my desktop. I had googled this subject today, your link had other sites that my link didn’t have to look at. It is so ironic, I do not expect perfection, and I am happy living a simple life. If my family would stop badgering me for every little thing…but they never will. This is why I needed some direction and guidance. I am going to have to go back to counseling, I just haven’t had the time and it’s been 4 months since I’ve gone.

I hope you ladies do not mind, I am going to print your suggestions and keep it with me at all times so I can have a reference point.

Even though counseling is needed, these are points I can ask my Therapist to help me with.

Thanks so much!

Cathi

Though I've never met you Wisdom, you sound like a person is accustomed to helping others.

Hope you find the balance and communicate firmly to others that you need time for yourself everyday.

It might be quite different you geographically live a day's driving distance away. Not suggesting that you should but things can change alot when this happens. So a vacation or mini-vacations throughout the year would help.

Another thought, how about a life coach as well as counseling? I am a trained life coach and I know how valuable they can be in setting goals. I am not practicing right now, but NABBW has a few members that are practicing, and I know of a few myself. Just a thought.

Cathy, I get a feeling from your words that you aren't quite ready to say, "ENouGH !" Something within you is making you keep this as a 'need' and as a friend. You will have to say to yourself, (to borrow and revamp Josie's words): that YOU can matter to YOU and that is not a selfish way to be. YOU can be kind to YOURself, and have a life making YOU smile. To that I add, you are worthy! It's a matter of claiming it. It's a matter of believing it. It's a matter of caring enough about yourself to take it.
This does not mean you need to go as far as being unkind to those who are depending on you being an intermediary or their primary support. Quite the contrary. With the new found you, they will learn to respect you more, but for many more reasons. I know this from experience. I've recently (as in this very year) found my backbone and my voice (PTL!). And, I'm not turning back, ever! I wish the same for you... you simply must find it in yourself to find and be YOU.... you aren't truly at your maximum potential and of maximum help to any of those who lean on you until you do...this being because of the potential resentment you hold when you're 'in the middle.' Good luck.
I want to say more, explain more, but my screen is jumping - such agravation --- and the reason I don't participate @ BWS!

Buy a new computer so you can participate Gims, as you and your wisdom are missed. I finally got tired of fooling around with my old piece of junk and got a new laptop that works sooooo well!!!

...but, this is a new one! I can read, but when I try to type, the typed text is jittery, then when I draft a long post, the screen won't stay still, jumps all over the place...
I'll keep trying - needing company during this season. First bday without a hug from my mom.
...and thanks, chatty, you're a sweetie.

Orchid, I just came back from visiting my mom's in Northern VA. It is a 3 hour drive away. She needs knee replacement surgery, and she will need help. I can't get away and do this, I don't have the resources.

On January 7, my husband will have major surgery in his right foot. He has osteo-arthritis, he will not be able to drive for a long time and he is told he will be in a cast for 3 months. I am not complaining, he is very easy going and he was good to me while I recovered from my surgery recently.

My husband already talked to my mom about coming here and seeing his doctor, and having the surgery here. I am going to find out if they take her insurance. This way, it will be easier for me* to help her. She will think about it, unfortunately, if she chooses to stay where she it, I will not be able to help her, at least not as well as I could if she were with me.

*with the statement "it will be easier for me", I feel selfish saying that. It's just a habit I have to break.

Oh Anno, part of my problem is that I am barely keeping my head above water with all the debt I have gotten myself into dealing with one crisis after another. If I could afford it, I would love to have a life coach. In many ways, I believe a life coach would be more useful than a counselor. Having said this, I will check them out and perhaps I can see about hiring one in the future. Thanks for the suggestion.

Gims, I was doing pretty good for awhile, but I have had a relapse. I do not understand what you are saying when you made these comments. It can mean a couple of things and I don’t want to misunderstand anything. I appreciate your input.



Aha, the jittery screen, I had my moments with that too. However I made a discovery, at the top right corner of the reply screen toolbar, you should see 2 arrows. One up and one down. Click on the bottom arrow to expand the screen. This stopped the moving up and down for me. Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Cathi

Cathi, I'm reading all of this and the wonderful advice given. I wish I had some words of wisdom, but alas I can only reiterate what others have said.

I do believe you have the kind of soul that wants to nourish and reach out to others, and I can see why everyone turns to you and your bigheartedness to help. They know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are loved by you, and that you won't say no.

This can also lead to OVERWHELMNESS (is that a word?) and that sounds like where you are. The only thing I could offer would be to step by, take a look, know what you can and can't do, and tell them. But tell them why. Reassure each of them that you love them and will do what you can but you are only one person.

Then stand by it. Know it. And do it. You have such great strength of character and quite frankly, if I were hurting, I would also turn to you.

How lucky for them all to have you in their life!

Allison Bottke wrote the book, Setting Boundaries with Your Adult Children.

http://www.settingboundaries.com/

This may help with your daughter, and I think you can use soem of the actics in any relationship. I hope this helps.

Dotsie, I appreciate the link. You would not believe how difficult it is to find a book on this subject. I read one a long time ago; I think it was titled “Boundaries”. I remember it left me a little confused; it just wasn’t straight to the point enough for me. I will look into this one after Christmas. I did find a book with a journal by Lisa Hammond titled, “Permission to Dream Journal”. Which is part of what I am struggling with. It’s in a workbook format, and I find this setting to be useful when trying to make changes.

Your Majesty, I am so happy you posted, truly it is appreciated. I think OVERWHELMNESS should be a word if it isn’t already.

I definitely have been taken advantage of and I know Sofia knows I love her unconditionally. But it still does not give her the right to abuse me either.

I am feeling much better since I posted this and well, I didn’t want to at first because I hate being a downer and I didn’t want anyone to think I was just wining.

You said:


I am actually flattered you said this. But this gives me an opportunity to further explain my dilemma. I know if you were to turn to me, you would not do the following:

Demand I do something.
Manipulate me and put me on a guilt trip
Chew me out and cuss me out if I was unable to help due to circumstances beyond my control.
Or…
Chew me out and cuss me out if I did everything I possibly could, and in spite of that, I wasn’t able to help you.

The only person who doesn’t ask much from me nor abuse me is Richard. Mind you, he did for many years, until I left him 6 years ago. He was just stunned that I actually took action on that part. After 8 months, he was in tears apologizing to me and telling me how he realized he took me for granted for so long. I hated the fact it came to that and I had every intention of divorce. But I wanted to give him another chance, especially since he was telling me what I longed to hear. By his admission, I didn’t feel like I was losing my mind.

I took a step today, and I shut off my cell phone while I was at work. I am not allowed to talk on my cell at my desk, so I would have it on vibrate and then go to the break room or outside to talk. For the most part it’s someone’s drama and I end up getting riled up, totally distracting me from what I am suppose to do. It was nice today, and the only person who has my work number is Richard and it is to be used only for a dire emergency.

Thanks everyone for your input. Now I have to work on when I will make this New Mexico trip. I am thinking somewhere between March thru May. I have to check with my friend and see when it is a good time for her as well. But the minute I have a solid date, I am on southwest.com booking the flight!!!

Again, I am so glad I posted this. It’s so wonderful to have the guidance.

I love you all a lot!

Cheers,
Cathi

Oh girl...I had no idea. I can tell you this much. They might get the opportunity to cuss me ONCE....but then the door would close.

No way...no how. You are the one they turn to for help and if you can't "fix" their lives, then you get this? Nu uh.

You've already seen what saying NO MORE got you (with Richard) and by the way, bravo to Mr. R! I'm so happy to know that he saw and felt your worth. Now let the rest of the clan know that you won't take it anymore. If you can help, you will. If you cannot because of circumstances beyond your control, then they will have to take other measures.

You are not a magician, and you can't fix the world. Do what you can, let the rest go.

This situation reminds me of when my Ex and I separated a bazillion years ago. He would come to the house and begin cussing me...saying I wasn't a good mother when I knew I was. Finally, I had enough. I shut the door in his face. He knocked...I opened it. He began again calling me names. I shut the door and stood there. The first time he had banged on the door. The second time the knock was a little less intimidating. The third and fourth times, the knock grew weaker and weaker. I stopped opening the door. He called. He shouted into the phone, I hung up. This went on for a while until he called and when I heard his voice he knew I was going to hang up....he said, "Please don't hang up. I'm sorry. Can we just talk a sec?"

We did and I never had another problem with him.

Stand your ground.

We're here if you need us!

You will love New Mexico.

Think about the changes that occurred when you set the boundaries on your hubby. I think setting more boundaries with other loved ones is the ticket.

Bravo for turning your phone off at work. That's a great start. I hope you continue. That at least sets a boundarie for not getting worked up over family issues while at work. I love it!

Maybe we could help you think of some other boundaries and you can implement them one at a time.

One might be for when people curse at you. Simply state that you're not going to be verbally abused any more. When they begin cussing say, "If you are going to cuss at me, I'm going to hang up." Stick to it. They will eventually get the message.

I hope you don't mind me offering these sugestions. I'm only trying to help.

OMG, I am reading your posts and all I can think of is..."Thank God I came here." I can't tell you how happy and relieved I am for posting this.

Dotsie, keep the advise coming!!! Thanks for the idea of implementing one boundary at a time.

Anyway, I wanted to respond real quick, I am actually working overtime until 10 tonight (Trust me, I don't mind this at all...I am treated with lots of respect here). Okay, so the overtime doesn't hurt either, LOL. I am sneaking this in because I am on the work computer!!!

I'll post some more tomorrow night when my eyes will not be cross eyed!

Thanks you, thank you, thank you!!!

Love and Hugs,
Cathi

Overwhelming is a word, overwhelmness is not, however why not make it a boomer word? Works for me...

Wisdom&Life, to put your question into the proper perspective remember this one saying and it will work for you, I guarantee it!!!

WE ARE TREATED EXACTLY THE WAY "WE ALLOW" PEOPLE TO TREAT US.

The key words in that phrase are WE and ALLOW...

I wasn't going to post tonight Chatty, and I have to make this quick because I am at work and I do not want get caught.

I thought I acknowledged the fact that I allowed this to happen and I am the only one who can change it. Maybe I did not state this in a direct way perhaps, but I did not intend to play the "poor me baby" role when I posted this. This is why I am asking for help, advise, suggestions, on setting boundaries. I do not want to go to the other extreme either. This could happen if I do not know what I am doing. I don't have the kind of experience some of you have here.

However, this still does not give others the excuse to treat someone badly, especially after one has gone out of thier way for them and took some risks.

Having said this, I know I must make the changes with myself, which is what I am trying to do. When I started this conversation, I was very distraught and I had buckets of tears pouring down my face while typing. This is the only place I knew to turn too.

If I misunderstood what you were trying to say, I am sorry.

Cheers and Hugs,
Cathi

Thanks for the jittery screen tip... I tried it and it works. Now if I could just get the pages to load faster, I'd be back with a full swing...

About the quote you brought forward... I think it has been summed up in subsequent posts, but I'll illustrate, without detail, to explain how I woke up (a personal thing):

This one particular person called me all the time, almost daily and almost always in a tither. My natural self wanted to help her through what ever the disaster du jour was. Well, one day and in one call, the person crossed a line with me, actually verbally contesting what I was saying, even though it was simply my way of trying to help (kind of like you being cussed out, as you described in one of your posts). That exchange with this person caused a disconnect, which has yet to be mended. BUT -- here's the thing -- my days became more peaceful. Thing is I didn't realize it until the person called, out of the blue, one day weeks later. After that call, I felt my stomach start to act up, my nerves start to zap... along with a whole bunch of other bodily and emotional responses. I had never taken into consideration the toll this person and others with their needs/messes were taken on me and my health.
Note: When I have problems, I usually keep them to myself, not asking anyone for help... didn't even share problems with my mom... every so often I share something with BWS and one other cybergroup - but, as a general rule, I keep my problems all inside. In general, I'm usually the listener, the one trying to fix it for everyone else --- until that call and a couple of others after that one.
That call with other similars (I must have been primed) brought me to some realizations:

• People who are fed 'help' keep coming back for more.
• No matter what I was able to say or do was of little help in their development, their means of working to 'fix' their own problems --- problems they 'usually' invented or caused, themselves.
• I was using up my reserves for everyday 'cr**' when I needed to keep my reserves healthy for BIG problems, often times my own.

[*]I was forever in a mindset of needing to help/fix , the point I was making with my post you quoted. I thought I had to help. I didn't want them to continue hurting. I wanted to 'fix' it for them. I really thought it was necessary that I carry their burden... and so on. There was something in me that made me think I was obligated (maybe too strong a word, but it felt such) and the best person to 'help' them, after all they were calling me.

I say KUDOS to you for turning your phone off.

Cathi, you have touched my heart and I have no choice but to respond (not that others are not worthy!)

First of all, once you have established a pattern of being the shoulder to cry on/fixer/dependable one, it can be very difficult to break the pattern, even if it would be better for all involved. The great thing is that you realize it and are already taking steps to turn down the drama and intrusiveness.

Good for you for turning off your phone at work! Your relatives should not be bothering you with their squabbles anyway, which leads me to:

Who's got the problem? If your aunts are fighting with each other, that's their problem, not your problem. I'm not saying that to be selfish and uncaring. ESPECIALLY if it's something ridiculous, let them work it out on their own and refuse to be drawn into it. The world will not tip off its axis.

I can assure you you'll feel strange the first time you listen to a tale of woe, murmur that you hope they straighten things out, and quit. But it's completely fair, so do it. Do not keep talking but be polite, if that makes sense. They'll hve to find someone else to get worked up with.

Remember that you cannot change others. If your relatives are determined to fight with each other, let them do it -- but you do not have to get involved or take sides. They will not like this, but that is their problem, not your problem. Again, who's got the problem?

To tell you the truth, once your relatives learn that you are not really interested in who forgot to bring the salad to the potluck or return a phone call, they just might stop bugging you so much.

By the way, you do not have to justify or defend your actions, so don't let yourself get worn out trying to get others' permission to do what you want. (That's actually what we are doing when we get into long discussions about whether or not we should do something.) If you don't want to visit your relative in Utah, don't do it and don't talk about it. "We'll see," or "maybe next time" is plenty. If you keep explaining or justifying, others will always think of some little hole to dig their way in. Some silence is very powerful.

Decide what true emergencies are and remember that everything else is open for evaluation. To me, true emergencies are things like medical emergencies or the house on fire or a car wreck or huge amounts of water spraying everywhere. Everything else, even if it seems like a big deal at the moment, is likely not an emergency. Save your big energies for the emergencies, your medium energies for things that are urgent, and only give your tiny energies to the little stuff.

Do not, under any circumstances, allow people to browbeat you or curse at you. If this starts to happen, either invent an interruption -- someone's at the door -- or, if the cursing starts, say 'we'll take this up another time' and end the call immediately. You are obviously a nice, sensitive person and will be very shaky the first time you do this, but hold your ground. You might be surprised at the other person calling to apologize fairly soon. And if they don't apologize, they can darn sure wait until they calm down enough to speak decently. (And yes, I have had this happen to me.) This is not your problem that they are cursing at you; it's their problem.

I hope anything I said has some positive effect and is taken as support. You are welcome to pm me anytime.

Ellemm

Hope you don't mind me adding to yours, Ellemm...
On (1), this is a very important thing people need to do, esp. my hubby... there is no real need to explain... simple responses, such as you've given, are sufficient... we each have a justified right to say 'no' without making excuses, giving reasons, explaining. I can't seem to get this through my DH's head... or other people's, who think they have to give me reasons. I can hear 'justifying' explanations, and I've come to tell others that they don't have to tell me 'why.' A great deal of the time their excuses sound made up, anyway... I'd rather not hear them. I'd rather not doubt what they say.

On (2), I'd say don't invent an interruption... instead, just be truthful, as in the alternative you give. A simple, "I need to go, now... talk with you later" or something similar... again, no excuses, no explanation, no make believe... just truth.

Oh, I absolutely agree. But if you're taking baby steps (no offense) and are feeling a little too shaky to use the absolute truth, I'd say invent something harmless until you build up your defense muscles, so to speak. In the long run truth is always the easiest and least stressful. "I need to go now" is great. Thanks for pointing that out.

Gims, thanks for the explanation. It's been a problem, I just don't want to see others suffering or hurting. As well as the other points I mentioned earlier, it is so draining when you try to help and the person you are trying to help gives you multiple excuses as to why your advise will not work.

I did say something to my mother yesterday, and it was not easy to do, but I had to say it. My mother lives in Northern VA, and she is a widow now. She has knee problems and I think she is going to need knee replacement surgery. I suggested to her to come where I live and have the surgery done. Richard has an orthopeadic surgeon and is willing to make arrangements for her to see him. I did this because I work full time and I am barely keeping my head above water financially at this point due to the unpaid leaves I've had to take in the past year with wanting to spend time with my dad before he passed away and stay around longer to help my mom. Then my own surgery a couple months ago, I had to go 10 days unpaid before the short-term kicked in. I just cannot go running anymore to the rescue. Anyway, she was making excuses about not being able to see the doctor's here because of her insurance (which I know is not true because I researched it already at my job) and I told her I did this. I forgot what the other excuse was. But I told her this,

"You understand mom I will not be able to come up there and help you with your recovery if you chose to have your surgery there. I just cannot afford to do this anymore." Then I said, "It's not that I do not want to take care of you during your recovery, I do, it's just easier for me to take care of you here."

She didn't fuss when I said this to her. It was hard for me, but I had no choice. Plus, Richard is due to have foot surgery in January.

As for answering the door...I do not do this anymore. In the house we lived in before, we had a window on each side of the door. Our family room was in plain site, and I would always answer the door because, well, the solicitor saw me. That became too much and I just said one day,

"to heck with it, I don't care if they see me or not. It's a free country and this is my house, I don't have to answer my door if I don't want to."

Wow, the world didn't end, LOL.

I am so glad you were able to break free from that toxic person.

Anyway, I understand now what you meant and you hit the nail on the head. Thanks again for explaining!

Cheers,
Cathi

Ellemm, what a great perspective...who's problem is it anyway?

Yes, your post has had a positive effect on me. Reminding me this is not going to be an overnight change, but the change is possible if I apply it, and get in the habit.



I like this analogy and this is exactly what it's been like. Interesting enough, I don't get worked up over things like this. If I feel like calling someone to talk to them, and I called many times before without ever getting a call from them, I still make the call. Who cares who's turn it is? Now if I get the impression someone just doesn't want to talk to me, then I will not call and if they do not call, fine. This is what's so bizarre about all this drama to begin with. There are so many people out there much worse off. We should consider ourselves Blessed!

I am tired of justifying myself and I will have to practice saying. I have to go (period) and Somethings come up (period).

The manipulation is something I really need to work on. I'll have to let it go and keep in mind, this is their problem, not mine. It's truly sad when you really think about it.

Ellem, I am touched by your offer to PM you.

Thank you very much!

Cheers,
Cathi

Ellemm, thanks for your lengthy ost. There's so much wisdom there. I tend to pick up other's problems too so I'm listening in.

cathi, thanks for beginning this post in what seemed like desperation. Seems like it's halping many of us.

Baby Steps!

There is an old reliable book out there called "I Feel Guilty When I Say No." Don't know who wrote it but I bet you can find it at your library.

Life. You only have one. Cherish what God allows you..rise above what you can, ignore those who hurt you and focus on who's important. You and your husband.

Keep moving forward Cathi. What will you do for yourself today??

Dee, that rings a bell. I think I read it back in the early 90s. One of my Catholic girlfriends told me about it.

The way we're helping Cathi here reminds me of the 30 Days to a New You teleseminar we have coming up this Tuesday.

It will be followed by a 30 email course in January.

If you haven't signed up yet, you can do so on our home page.

Great advice coming in from all directions Ellemm. I hope I wasn't insulting to you, certainly did not mean to be but as I read your words that saying just kept popping into my head, and so the quote. It is true and does work and I know you already knew that.

No one in my immediate family or outside has ever cursed at me, once maybe but never a second time. I stopped them dead in their tracks.

You might try this, the next time someone calls you with a nonsensical complaint, just flat out say,"I don't care!" They may blouster a bit but will eventually get the message especially if thats all you'll say to them...

I have just now read this thread. And I too want to tell you that you are so not alone.

I believe most women are kind hearted by nature, but the plight of many of these women is to be used and to be taken advantage of. I can join you in this tune. What Eagle said about setting boundaries truly rung a bell with me as well. Eagle, your post opened my eyes in an encouraging motivating way.

Josie what a great link you posted. I bookmarked it.

So much good advice here. My situation is a little different. I hope I’m not hijacking this thread, with my additional question. Let me give you an example.

Yesterday my husband, my son and my granddaughter went to the Christmas market. My son dressed my granddaughter too lightly. I said, it’s the cold night air, and I think she should wear her snowsuit. My son’s reaction, “Mom, I know what I’m doing, I’m the father, and you keep out of it.” We all went to the market, and poor “A” was trembling from the cold. I took off my scarf and wrapped it around her neck. My son was furious at me, and in the middle of the market scolded me for doing too much. I couldn’t believe his reaction. Yes, he’s going through a separation, but he can’t seem to turn off his anger at any woman. I held my granddaughter’s ice cold hand, and told my son if he had any father sense, he would take his daughter, and put her in the warm car, and head for home before she turns blue. His reaction? He tore “A”s hand from mine, gave me a look that would kill, and left in a cloud of anger.

Now this isn’t the end of it. I was so upsete by my son’s behaviour. I wanted to discuss it with my husband, when suddenly my husband turned on me and said, “ Stop whining! It’s your fault! You know how he is. Just don’t say anything to him. I’m sick of your bitching!”

It was like one blow on top of the other. I can’t believe how hostile both of these men were to me. And when I tried to explain to my husband what I needed to hear from him…all I heard was “ but but but…..” He doesn’t get it. And he never will. So here I sit, haven’t talked to him all day. In a couple of days my brother is coming, and once again, I have to pull my act together, for my brother’s sake, and pretend everything is fine at the home front. Hah.

I wish I could go with you to New Mexico, Cathie.

Well Anno, Richard and I went to my companies Christmas Party Friday night and we had so much fun. I think I had this kind of fun 3 years ago sometime... Anyway, if I get the pictures, I will post in the pictures thread. I ended up sleeping most of the day Saturday though, and now I am trying to catch up with our laundry, LOL.

Dee, thanks for the recommended reading.

Chatty, thank you for elaborating and now I will add "I don't care" to my practice reactions. I know this sounds absurd, but practicing will make it second nature to me.

Dotsie, I can't make it to the Teleseminar. I have to work late Tuesday night. Will there be another one for any of us who cannot make it? BTW, I was hoping this thread will help others too.

Speaking of others...EW, you did not high-jack the thread. This is for everybody. I am a little sickened by those guys. Did either of them think to let their egos go for a minute and consider the child? As for your brother's sake, I don't know the kind of relationship you have with him, but this is going to be never ending for you. I say this because I feel this is why I have ended up with all this anxiety that lead me to this cry for help.

That would be great if you could join me in New Mexico...anyone else?

EW, please keep us posted, I am worried about you.

Cheers and Hugs,
Cathi

Oh Cathie, I’m so glad you had such a good time at your Christmas party.
Those happy moments will hopefully happen more frequently in your life.

Dear Cathi, the last thing I wanted to do is have you worry about me. You have enough worries with your family. I keep thinking about Eagle’s post, about taking control and changing. I have a feeling 2010 will be a changing year for me, and I think for you too.
I am surrounded by self-centered egomaniacs. And I know I won’t ever be able to change them. And I know I don’t want to continue to live this way. By God, I’ve tried, and I can’t.
I’ve been there, where you have been, thinking death is an only way out. And what Eagle wrote made so much sense to me. It’s rather ridiculous to think of death as an alternative, instead of changing ones own life. I’m so thankful you started this thread. You got a partner in crime here.

Sending you ((((Cathie))))).

This quote was sent to me today, and I thought it so appropriate.

"What we call the beginning is often the end. And to make an end is to make a beginning. The end is where we start from."

I wish this site was private. EW, your quote made me drop a tear.

pm me gims. Or do you still have my email address?

EW, as well as a partner in crime, I consider you a kindred spirit. We need to stick together, if we don't who will? It is that kind of worry, if that makes sense, LOL!

Cheers and Hugs to you too!

Cathi

I hope all those feeling depressed before Christmas are doing better now.

Thanks Chatty, so far so good... It's amazing what some little steps will do.

Cheers,
Cathi

You are so right, everything begins with one small step! I am on a major weight loss regime for 2010, and am taking it one day at a time, ond hour at a time, even one minute at a time...

Oh Chatty, I know you will have success with this approach.

It's funny how we know things like this, but forget when we are side-tracked. At least, that's what happens to me. Hmmm, sounds like I need to make this my resolution, LOL. Not to allow being side-tracked to take me way off course!

Cheers and Happy New Year!

Cathi

I did something I have never done until now. On my refrigerator is a picture of me in my bathing suit. Now if that doesn't scare me out of being hungry, nothing ever will. KInd of resembles the balloon boys ballon with legs and head...

I don't have a picture of me in a bathing suit since I was 12 years old! Chatty, you must be motivated to bare your... whatevers. Good luck!

chatty, I have a friend who did this, but she had several kids and people coming in and out of her home all the time, so she put it inside the cupboard that stored the snacks. She claims it worked. Great idea.

We are going to Aruba later this month. I will be wearing my bathing suit, and you know what? I don't even care. Now how's that for putting my big girl panties on and dealing with it?

I'm sure there will be those moments in the hotel room mirror where I'm disgusted, but I'm sure I'll get over it; dimpled thighs and all.

Best way to not see whats in that mirror Dots is to NEVER LOOK!

Great idea.

Oh, I love New Mexico been their in the abour 1969 loved it the dry air and warm sun on my face .It is so peaceful and so much fun . Peace and senrenity that is for me. Jouraling is good for the stress also .

Sadie

Princess its not so bad bearing my 'whatevers' when there is no one in the pool I give a darn about, and don't care what they think anyway. I go to the pool for sunshine, pleasure and exercise and nothing more. When younger I would have worried what people thought, BUT thank the Lord, with age comes wisdom. So now who cares?

You've gotten some wonderful advice here. I can't really add anything to it, because not too long ago I needed the same advice, but I can tell you this; I could have written your post myself. I have a daughter situation that is unbelievably and incredibly instense and for years I felt like I couldn't plan anything either. I felt like I couldn't even make friends with people because making friends would require disclosure and my situation is almost too much to explain to people. I was sucked into my daughter's daily drama for longer than I can tell you and I was completely exhausted, broken and miserable. I felt just like you....like I didn't care if I lived or died. Life literally meant nothing to me. It was just a succession of days, one after another, all the same, and all with no meaning. I would wake up in the mornings and count the hours until I could just go back to sleep at night so the day would be over and I wouldn't have to live in it anymore. The subconsciousness of sleep was my only relief.

Setting boundaries is the key, and it wasn't until I made it okay for myself to do so that things began to change. Sometimes we feel guilty for setting boundaries, almost as if it is selfish of us to have our own life. That's what happened to me. I felt obligated to fix everything and if I did say no my daughter would make sure to heap monumental guilt on me for it. Any hurtful, cruel thing she could say or do to keep me entangled in her messy life, she did. She still does make those attempts but I took a major step to free myself from her. I moved. Out of state. I'm not saying this is the answer for others, but for me I had to leave to seperate myself from the trauma and drama. I also felt it was important for me to leave to make her see that she had to let go and take care of herself. I wanted/needed to make myself unaccessable to her and I needed to save my own life....desperately. Things are still not good for her but for me, things are slowly coming together. This year I am working to create a life I want to get out of bed for....one where I ask myself what I want to do, not what I have to or need to do or what I am being guilted or pressured into doing. I'm not there yet, but I'm not where I was, either, and I'm not going back there.

Take that trip. PLEASE take that trip. Stop anyone who tries to make you feel guilty over it. Let it be okay to tell your aunt that although you would love to see your cousin, this trip is about other things and it just can't be done this time. If she doesn't understand then that is her issue and you have to let it be hers. There is a saying I am growing more and more fond of everyday: "Other people's opinions of us are none of our business." There's a lot of freedom in that sentence.

I'll be keeping you in my prayers. I know how difficult this is!

P.J., gosh, you are so wise to be able to make the break. Good for you.

Not sure if you are interested, but if you want to join us in the 30 Days to a New You, FREE e-course, I hope you will. We are only on day four. Look at the Important Annoncements section at www.boomerwomenspeak.com to learn more.

I like that you can say that things are still not great for her, but they are getting better for you. That is real tough love. I'm glad you can do it. We are not responsible for our kid's happiness, though we want them to be happy.

I wonder if the aggravation of children is often the result of the father that has or is misdirected to the mother?

Thanks, Dotsie...I'll definitely take a look!

PJ, thank you for posting your story, I know it must’ve been emotionally draining and I truly appreciate this more than you know. I am sorry I hadn’t responded sooner, actually, I went away this past weekend for my granddaughter’s 2nd birthday. My daughter does not have internet access because she is behind in paying her bills. I refuse to bail her out. I will only help her work out a strategy to pay it on her own, but she doesn’t want to hear it so I will not waste anymore time and energy than I have to. Anyway, this is the first time I’ve had a chance to respond.

Setting boundaries is very difficult when you are used to feeling guilty for every move you make. Taking care of yourself is so much easier said than done, especially when you grow up with the example of “sacrificing everything for your family”. Well these are different times, unlike the generations before us when those who benefited from the “sacrifices” reciprocated by becoming responsible adults and respected their parents and/or elders. I am not holding my breath and perhaps that could be why I’ve let it go on this long. Thinking the days of “sacrifices” will pay off was just around the corner. Then Richard and I could have some peace for a change and live the simple life we want to live. But I have to accept the fact that that time might never come.

I am glad you were able to take a step by going to another State. Maybe because my daughter lives 6 hours away from us in the same State, it is still too close to home. It may be the key for us too. The longer the distance, the more difficult it would be to pick up and go. Until that time comes, I am going to have the attitude of living farther away. What I mean by that, and I thought about it this weekend ironically. I am going to have to make my visits the same way as I would if I lived farther away. In other words, not make any trips one weekend a month. Perhaps limit my visits to twice a year for a week at a time. Although, I am hoping to have my granddaughter here this summer for a week with just my husband and myself. But this is something I want to do.

As for New Mexico, I haven’t heard from my friend, I don’t know if she changed her mind about having me there. It’s alright, I will plan something else if I haven’t been able to make any kind of solid plan with her. As a Sci-Fi buff, I am already making alternate plans to going to NM in July when they have the annual anniversary of the Roswell crash. I’ve always wanted to go to this event. I just joined the UFO Club in VA Beach and I have been enjoying it very much. I’ve always been interested in this subject since I was a little girl and learned there were other planets out there. But I digress.



It’s going to take time, and I am not quite where you are, but I am at least going in that direction. I am so glad you told me this. This gives me hope. Too many times we compress our stories and in turn make it look like all we had to do was take a couple of steps and voila, like magic we are empowered. So when it doesn’t work that way, I lose hope and begin to think perhaps there is something wrong with me. Thanks for this PJ.

Excellent quote. Do you know who quoted this?



You are in my prayers as well PJ. God Bless you tenfold dear sister!

Cheers,
Cathi

Cathi, I'm just wondering how things are going with you. Hope all is well.

Thank you Greene for your concern. Now everything is okay because I am working on it.

Unfortunately, I had a setback the last two weeks. The drama with the events in the past few years took a toll more on my husband than I had realized.

I had found out he found his ex-girlfriend through a facebook page* I wasn't aware of him having. I found some intimate emails they had exchanged with each other. He said things to the effect that he regretted leaving her 25 years ago and it was a big mistake, etc...

Without going into too much detail, we had to work out some issues with this the past two weeks. It really hurt me and as it turned out, I made this discovery 3 weeks after he stopped corresponding with her. Which validates to me that he felt bad for me and realized she was still the same spoiled brat he knew back then. In other words, he snapped out of it, LOL.

We have been trying to work on communicating better with each other and we have been spending more time together. Basically, enjoying the time now since there are no children and we are empty nesters. We are planning on taking a Reiki workshop together for starters. This may help eliminate some of the stress we have been feeling the past few years.

*He has since linked with me and Sofia on Facebook and I found more friends we had back in the early days. Her comment is still on his wall. I had to think of a subtle way to respond for a days, then I found a quote.

Her Comment on December 10 was:

"It was so nice talking to you yesterday. Sorry that I had to end the call, but they shut the door of the aircraft! Please call me when you can so we can continue or conversation!

NOTE: This was a really nice re-connect with an old boyfriend! I think I need this"

I almost responded with:

"Glad your needs were met, now back off and stay out of my marriage"

But I couldn't bring myself to say that, instead, I posted this quote beneath her comment:

"A man travels the world over in search of what he needs, and returns home to find it. - George Moore"

Thanks again Greene for asking. There is still drama with my daughter and unfortunately the jam she is in now is not her fault, but we are taking it one day at a time. At least she is getting along well with her daughter's father. This makes me happy as well for all three of them, not to mention the peace of mind it is bringing the rest of us, LOL!

Cheers,
Cathi

Cathi, what a great quote, and a very kind way to respond. DOn't you wonder how many times this has happened with boomers and Facebook? I think it's because there was so many unresolved relationships.

I looked into this a little more, and this is happening more than anyone may think.

This particular relationship ended ugly and Richard has been burden with this guilt. I understood why he felt the need to get in touch. It was the "behind my back" I had a problem with. Plus, the contents I read were not merely an apology. I was hurt by some of those remarks.

Fortunately, and so far, we are starting to do more things together. I couldn't leave her remarks hanging there, I had to respond somehow.

I just hope she is out of our lives for good. I knew her then as well. In fact, I knew her before I knew Richard. She used to work with him as well and she introduced us. She just told me he was someone she worked with. So they had already broken up a couple of months prior. She was very condescending about me in her last email to him.

This is a big mistake for people to do. The grass is never greener on the other side, but by the time anyone realizes, the damage has been done, and there may be no turning back!

Thanks for your feedback on the quote. I wondered if I didn't stir the pot, but on the other hand, it's my right to have a say in this...

Cheers,
Cathi

I was on a friend's Facebook wall last night and saw that she'd wished an old boyfriend a happy birthday. Isn't that funny? Just after reading this post.

Perhaps this is something that will bring you closer together, but I have to say, I would have been ticked off too.

I hope things improve for you Cathi.

It is interesting, and I am friends with a guy I went to the prom with in HS. I told Richard about it and I am very respectful regarding his wife. If she had a page I would try to be her friend too. Plus, this guy and I were never serious and I became closer friends with his family. To this day since my 18th birthday, his mother and father call me to wish me a happy birthday.

Other than that, I do not go looking for anybody I may have been romantic with in the past. Richard was not very receptive when I suggested he have a facebook page. I thought this was a good way for the 3 of us to stay connected together. It hurt me he had to have a facebook in order to find this person and try to mend fences behind my back.

Thanks Dotsie for telling me how you would've felt. It seems like our therapist (now ex-therapist) was on the attack towards me for not moving on. I still haven't received an answer to my question. I wanted to know when this all took place, and then I could probably connect the dots with whatever situation was happening at that time. This way I could understand his frame of mind at that time. I will admit, the emails stopped about a month ago. According to him, she was the same spoiled brat he couldn't stand before. So I guess I could look at this positively, and say, well at least he got that out of his system...

Cheers,
Cathi

How is this all working Cathi? Any new developments?

Hi Ladies,

Sorry for taking long here. I know some of you are my friends on facebook and it is a good networking site for quick comments. It seems like I have more time for that lately, so I apologize.

Let's see, there have been some interesting developments and I still do not know what to make of it, LOL. First, the ex-girlfriend business. I finally got my answer and I actually understood where Richard was coming from. He said he got in touch with her and said the things that he said because he was looking for compassion. In all fairness, he has had it rough too with our daughter's situation and he even took my dad's death pretty hard too. I was so focused on everyone else's drama's and trauma's... I am not excusing it, but I told him he could've come to me, I would've taken the time. Anyway, not long after that, this ex-girlfriend (who I knew before) contacted me and reassured me she was just glad to hear from him and that he was okay. Then she befriended me on facebook. Then she made sure I wouldn't have a problem with her keeping in touch. I told her I didn't have this problem to begin with. My problem was the "behind my back" and the sneaky, sneaky way he went about it. So that's cleared up, and it has brought Richard and myself closer. Instead of going to New Mexico to visit my friend, we plan on going just the two of us to the Pocono's. There is a resort there with all the amenities and I think it would be good for the both of us to go away for a few days and turn our cell phones off and just relax. We are looking at going in June sometime, and hopefully there will be no more crisis that will pull me away and force to use my leave time.

My daughter is really making some strides and thank God her and Zoey's dad are getting along really good. She is trying to get financial assistance so she can go to school. In the meantime, I have sent her some photography books because I can tell she has a gift for this. Especially when it comes to landscape photography, she really enjoys this.

My mother is doing alright and we did get past the 1st year mark since my dad's passing. I have advised her to keep herself occuppied until she joins him one day. It was the simplest way I could put it.

I guess the biggest step was to just step back and let the chips fall where they may.

Thanks so much for all your encouragement and love here ladies. I don't think I would've made it.

I love you all alot!

Cheers,
Cathi

The love comes right back to you Cathi and it is good to hear there is an upswing in your situation. Thats great!