I'd like to circle back to something if I may. And that is the responsibility of clergy and leaders in all walks of life. Yes, Gimster, I agree that the people who perform these acts of murder and barbarity are ill in some very nasty way. But I also know that based on studies, we all have a very nasty streak inside of us that can be brought out by group mentality and a "permission" to perform evil.

The study I'm thinking of had Americans administering "shocks" in ever increasing "doses," at the behest of their superiors. These were normal, everyday people and yet the power to inflict harm made them crazy and very hurtful.

We've seen it with our own dear sons and daughters in Iraq in the prisons.

I believe that leaders have a responsibility. There are many people who regard clergy as speaking the word of God -- as absolute authority. Indeed, many clergy foster that belief. So when they vilifile homosexuals, or say that they are evil, they are in effect, giving permission for very bad behavior.

When I say Paul trumps Jesus, it's just the passage that NL quoted a while back from Romans that I'm thinking of. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, but doesn't (to my recollection -- could be wrong!) ever vilifile homosexuals. Yet, it's Paul's passage that gets quoted all the time.

I think that having a spiritual basis is so very important, whatever its basis. I see too many of my clients without one who are very adrift.

Bless you, Gimster and Celtic for hanging in there and having a really fine discussion willing to look at things in a loving way. NL, we love you.

And we love all you "lurkers," too! LOL!