Quote:

---

I answer, "only I can allow something to affect me."

---

(Gimster)
In the abstract, I totally agree with that, Gimster. It's primarily how I keep from getting offended (most of the time, LOL!).

However, I know of instances where people's beliefs (sometimes motivated by religious viewpoints and sometimes not) have caused great harm to others in this country and in this time. A lesbian friend of mine was dragged behind a truck to get her to change her ways. And Matthew (in Wyoming) was hung on a barbed wire fence and left to die (in a bizarre image of Christ's death) because he was homosexual.

And to flip it a bit, abortion clinics exist because of beliefs that life does not begin at conception. To others, that is murder because they do believe that life begins at conception. And alternatively, the extreme ends of that debate have killed abortionists because they believed that abortionists were murderers and Satanical.

(Ladies, please, I don't want to go off on the abortion rant, I'm just making a point that beliefs do lead to actions that can cause harm to others. :-))

Even in terms of verbal beliefs, you can choose to engage or leave it alone in many cases, but what if you are in a situation where someone is constantly denigrating your beliefs and you need the job, or its a parent, or a co-worker?

I find it hard to believe that God/dess wants any of this.

Quote:

---

But, I have read verses, on different occasions, for different reasons, and with several years in between readings, when the meaning appeared differently to me.

---

This is sooo true!

Yes, Paul was establishing laws for the church. I think the point that the person was making between grace and law (I wish I could remember who it was -- might have been Mitt Romney), was that there are people who believe that you have to do more than believe in Christ -- that there are certain doctrines that you need to subscribe to -- such as women are submissive to men. (I bet you can guess how well that goes over with me! LOL!)

Quote:

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul was establishing laws for the church of Christ, not for salvation.

---

I really wish everyone thought that way, Gimster.

Quote:

---

I answer, "only I can allow something to affect me."

---

(gimster)

yea I 100% belive this as it puts responcibilitie for my feelings with myself....

i do also belive that rapists and religouse based murderes have something more wrong than the average person on the street. I don't let thees extreem examples overshadow the good from other loving and just people christion or otherwise, but it can easily lead to despaire..untill the other side of the coin is remembered...But both are important in current day life unfortunitly

Rape being a crime of power not sex in theas spacific instancies the perpertrater use's lesbians and and attitude of "all thats lacking for them to change their ways is a good seeing too"...hence rape..Reasons given, you deserve it....and sure we all know that your diffrent

Is this view upheld becouse of the wider societies reactions....yes. Inderectly or directlie dose the bible (and litrial interpritasion )back up this thinking towards homosexuales...yes.....if thats ones hart felt belife on the subject fair and good, but dose it need to pop up at every turn, the same passage over and over again....the same repeating message.

Thes criminals are backed by others (even indirectly) hate and prediduce in societie and the overzeliouse conviction that they are right in doing what they are doing...misguided as they are they genuinlie think they have a right to and are doing the world a favour. treating homosexules as they do especillie murder...

on a slightly diffrent tone but still clearly related..
Rember what brought this up in the first place....ANNOS dad telling her about a new minister getting to the kids in the hope of tranning them out of homosexualitie beccouse they/we are born that way. HL example of genetic experimentasion to root out the homosexule gene...

thes are sane rational(ministers and scientists) people and not the sick or depraved...YET say/view homosexualitie as being so wrong they have the right to do the above (examples) Now that is directly spurned on by the lirial interpritasion of the bible or the general religouse attitude, as he is a Minisster...

we have some moral responibilitie for the informasion we desplay/promote in the world.....regardless of its origins and to answere questions to one-selvs simplie "am i adding or taking away from the hate, fear and prejidice in this world today"???regardless of who its directed at, or in whatever part of the world...Am i adding to the loving word of god

no one need promote homosexualitie in stoping descriminasion in this way......since its the protection and absences of hate and violences that is the focus , not in the promotion of any one lifestyle, homosexual or otherwise

Genisis.9:25,
23.Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned backward, and they did not see their father's nakedness.24When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him,25 So he said, "May Canaan be cursed! He will be a servant of servants to his brothers."

"May Canaan be cursed! He will be a servant of servants to his brothers." and his desendents..
...so whomever the earlie imperilist, capitilst etc. wanted to enslave ...they deemed them desendents of Canaan...In the name of the bible hence god

As you can see litrial interpritasion (or any twist on THEE WORD) has and still can creat a whole load of trouble or be manipulated for any use if one so desirees. In relasion to slaverie it was for capital gain, the use of people for or as property

Took a while for me to re-find this passage. According to historiens and world experts into slaverie, the above vers was the one used to justifie slaverie from the 15 centurie onwards. Untill bible became mixed with biologie in societie and that became the new justificasion for slaverie, thes two combined forces weer unstopible in terms of attitud and one seperet set of people dominating a diffrent set of people. Slaverie created or gave birth to racisum

We may not have slavierie today but its legacie remains in racist attitudes and behaviour held within our culture today, the handing down of attitudes and belifes for generasions untill the present day...ex slave colonie that rebeled or won their freedom weer left to financial ruin, and stil are financialie bankrupt, ie taheiti

Its so difficult to get to thee truth of anything.....but yet so verie important...

I hope i have made a point and its not in discrediting the bible but in the coutione and care that is needed when interpriting the written word, litrialie or otherwise....
Theese are the words that reprisent GOD to us on earth...with christs life as an example,(rember christ was the light of the world)an example of gods love, compasion, forgivness and justness in trying to create a brotherhood amounst people that was fair noble honerable and had common sences decent values based in love and fairness with that in mind, how should biblical word be interprited?? Should it not be in the same manner as the living christs example?

GIMSTER AND CASY
i don't have the knowlage or skill that you two ladies have but i am enjoying the readings of your posts and i am learning stuff i didn't know...i am also having a time of it thinking and considerring about what was said, but this is a good thing overall thanks ladies.

I don't think is a promoter or perpetrator of murder, hate and mayhem. There are just as many, probably more Christian's being martyred everyday for their faith in Christ and for taking a stand for him. One man in the Sudan was forced to watch as the lost without Christ split his only son's bowels open and he had to watch him slowly and painfully die. Another and more recent incident was of a minister whose wife and son were forced to watch as a steamroller started at his feet and rolled over his entire body for his faith in Christ. These horrendous acts were just a few of many that happen everyday.

Its not just a select few in this world who are tortured and tormented. The perpetrator is Satan and his cohorts. God has nothing to do with the sin in the world. That's why He sent Jesus.

Hitler killed just as many believer's in Christ as he did Jews and homo's or any other dissidents. THe

Ministers, priests, pastors, rabbis, etc. aren't immune from being depraved, sick, insane, lustful, {sinners}, etc. They can and do say and do things out of their humanness. And, they are accountable for their preaching and their actions.

About certain subjects popping up at every turn... I don't see that to be happening. Maybe it's like seeing a million and one white cars on the road after you buy one. Or like my sister, after she got her divorce and remarried, everywhere she turned, she was confronted by what the Bible says about second marriages. It was a big issue for her, at one time. (PTL, she is settled in her heart, now.) But, I wasn't taking note of what was being said and written about second marriages, because it wasn't pertinent to my own life. I listened to her concerns and tried to help her through it, but I wasn't looking for the subject to pop up like she was all the time.

I cannot answer for society as a whole. But, if you are settled in your heart as to what is OK, what does it matter what others think? Again, refer to Hannelore's quote. But, never stop listening, because you'll be taking a risk. Your heart will harden. Resentment will flourish. Hatred can seed and grow... and the end result is no better than someone raping for power.

I feel we have failed you in some way. That's probably as much my fault as anyone else's. You are precious in His sight. You are His daughter, loved in a divine way. Would you be offended if I suggested you find a good Christian pastor to speak with... printing out this discussion and reviewing it with him/her. It's just a suggestion... not saying you need it or that I'm wanting you to convert to any particular way of believing. I just don't want you to think all Christians are bad. I know they are not.

Many managers of forums might have - or, should I say, probably would have (myself, included, were I a moderator) - closed this thread many posts ago. Did the Holy Spirit keep it open for some reason? Maybe so someone, whether lurking or posting, could gain a stronger sense of themselves?

Blessings to you all.