All you writers,
How many passes did you make at that first manuscript, before you molded it into a marketable book?
Just curious,

LOTS...AND LOTS....and lots. I lost count, actually.

I think 5 times...and now I'm sick of it.

JJ, have you ever heard of Bookbusters? It's a site that claims they send your query to over 600 agents. They charge $ 85.00. Would you know if it's a scam?
Also, JJ, could you recommend a good writer's site? I'd really, really, really appreciate that.

Bonnie, I wrote the first manuscript and threw it away. Not that it was bad but I developed a better idea for the wording, etc. by doing one first and then, I started all over again. Then, my editor did chapter by chapter so it depended on how busy she was to how fast she finished. All in all I would say 18 months total. Oh, that doesn't count the changes I had to make after the publisher got ahold of it! Nothing drastic but a lot of eye strain.

Never heard of Bookbuster's but maybe someone else on here has? I would never do something like that unless I could find someone who had, and ask tons of questions. I'm so cautious...sometimes, I think TOO cautious, you know?

Now as far as a good writing site, I am wondering what you needs are? To read good articles on writing, I subscribe to a lot of good E-zines that bring valuable info to me either weekly/monthly, or even quarterly.

I think sites like Writer's Digest has SOME good things on it, but they are not interested in me as a writer, they want to SELL me something. So I wouldn't use them for "stuff."

C. Hope Clark site, http://www.fundsforwriters.com/ is a good, overall site and she has some great ebooks to purchase at very reasonable prices, depending on what you want out of your career. She has E-zines that are free and some that cost a small amount per year. I'm thinking 12.00 a year if I'm not mistaken, and let me tell you, they are ALWAYS valuable to me as a writer. She also gives places to submit your work. I don't share the ones she provides in her paying ezine because that wouldn't be fair. If you sign up for her free newsletter, tell her I sent ya. She's just a doll! And smart as a whip!

Another informative site you will want to visit and bookmark is Moira Allen's Writing-World site at: http://www.writing-world.com/index.shtml It is chocked full of articles to read about the craft. I mean chocked full! And there are contest postings there along with other great stuff.

I need to find another word besides stuff, but that says it all, eh?

Anyhoo...will this help for starters?

STAY AWAY FROM PEOPLE WHO TELL YOU THEY WILL PROMOTE YOU FOR $25.00 AND GET YOU ON ALL THESE RADIO SHOWS, ETC...

You can do that on your own. Trust me...

Bonnierose, I've not published a book yet but can vouch for the sites JJ has recommended. They are great!

Many many rewrites. Too many to count.

Stephen King says you should write the book through full forward, without trying to fix each chapter or make changes (other than noting them down) and 'tell yourself the story'. Then put it away for six weeks before you do any revisions.

So far, I've not been able to follow that advice! The changes I make are usually plot changes so I feel compelled to write them. The two novels I actually finished each took about two years to write, revise, get critiqued, and polish. I have a friend who's become successful with genre mystery novels and she's required to write a complete new book every FOUR MONTHS.

I'm doomed.

JJ, thanks so much for your valuable advice. I'm going to stay away from Bookbusters.

I'll check out the links today. I need to pinpoint my resources as to finding an agent or publisher. I have so much information it is laming me. I hope that one of these writer sites can just advise me step by step how to finally get my book published. I'm wasting so much time in the internet reading and searching...I want to just be submitting.

What kind of book did you write bonnierrose? Mine is a women's fiction…Hah! The next Gone With The Wind…is at the verge of Gone in the Wastepaperbasket…
Oh yes, you'll get those up and down feelings every once in a while too. That's all part of the game. I think it helps when you are stubborn; that I am…to the very bitter end.

Find out where they are located and do a BBB search. There was a company that offered this service for screen plays and they actually did a great job for a friend. You never know.

Thank you ladies. I read S. King's "How 2" book, as well.
And on one of the other sites, they say to put the manuscripts aside for up to 18 months, then go back and polish. I'm working on 2 books: my sister's life story; and my own. The motive behind these is to make the public more aware of the long-range effect child abuse has on a victim's life. I'm passionate about it. And I won't give up until I've succeeded, unless the Lord calls me home!
I self-published both stories but they bombed. I couldn't find proofreaders who'd give honest, truthful feedback. Plus, I had PTSD and didn't know it. I'm trying to write my way through that.
Prayers and blessings,
bonnierose

Ms H, I wasn't saying to stay away from Bookbusters, I was just saying be cautious in all you do. There are so many scams out there and in our rush to get published, we sometimes overlook things that maybe needed more attention. That's all I'm saying.

And please don't feel that you are wasting time by researching. You are learning and that is never a waste of time. You will and should be, an expert by the time you get ready to actually publish.

Don't forget another site, http://www.mysterypromotion.com/ to keep bookmarked for when you're ready to begin your promotions. Trish Terrell is very knowledgable and a great help to writers everywhere. I just adore this woman! She's become a great friend, as well.

When I find a site that works, I stick with it. If I don't see the answers I need, I write to them and ask. These authors/writers have NEVER failed me. They are so willing to point me in the right direction.

Bonnie. Writing a book takes time. For some people they can crank them out a few a year. Some people put one out a year. Some even less than that. Everyone goes at their own pace. There's no set of rules that must be followed.

When I write, I write until I'm to the end, then put the manuscript away for a month to six weeks then go back and start editing. (Yes, there is some editing going on while I'm writing, too.) You edit until you feel satisfied that you've created the best story you can. Then it's time to find a critique partner or a professional editor and have them make an editing pass. You can find professional editors by asking writers' organizations (state or local chapters) or writers' groups on the Internet like TWLAuthorTalks, or ChickLit, or The-Write-List. These are all Yahoo Groups, so if you go to Yahoo.com and search groups, you should find them.

They have reputable editors who can help you or recommend one who can.

JJ, listed some great writers' resources sites. I'd like to add mine.

http://www.vickimtaylor.com/forums/index.php

I hope it helps.

Well duh! I should have thought of Vicki's site and forums. Very informative, and she always has something fresh there for you. Visit, and bookmark. You won't be disappointed. Forgive me, Ms Vicki.

Me too Vicki! Vicki's site is great and gets nominated every year.

Wow! Gonna check out your site tomorrow Vicki. Gonna call it a night over here...!

All is forgiven, JJ. You may leave me now. Oh.. oops.. Sorry, I was having a Queenly moment there. (Stands up quickly and brushes the seat of the throne.) There, all back the way it was. Can't even tell my big butt was there at all. (Walks backwards slowly, bowing and scraping.) The throne is all yours again. (smiles)

On my first book, I think I revised so many times, I had it memorized. The second one, not so many. I paid a wonderful professional editor to line-edit the first book, and it was worth every cent -- almost like taking a mini-course.

Now, I can usually spot my most common goofs early on. I have started to "just write" instead of stopping to edit along the way. This works wonders for me. I particpated in last year's NaNo competition (you write a 50K book in one month). For this, I couldn't stop and rewrite. It forced me to turn off my internal editor, and I found I really prefered it!
I generally allow a manuscript to sit for a few months before rereading and editing. So many flaws rise to the surface, given enough time.

Good luck and Godspeed, Bonnie!

Mad

Vicki...you are a hoot. Big butt indeed. From what do you know about big butt? Nada....

One reason they tell you to let it simmer for a month or so is because we DO memorize our stories. So when you read them, you read what's memorized, not what's actually on the page. When you leave it alone and return later, you SEE clearly.

Like when you go on vacation for a week or so then return home. You walk in and you SEE the rooms with a fresh set of eyes.

I've had to stop myself from editing while I write. Talk about stopping creativity! I used to pound and flow and never stop. That was when I wrote the best. Must return to that spot.

Bonnie, did you know what we had in common and that topic is what my book is about? I had PTSD for decades without knowing it. In fact, it was in my forties when I REALLY started writing my story that I went back to therapy to determine the PTSD symptoms. I could not have written my book without simultaneous therapy because I had flashbacks and nightmares during writing. But, like you, I did not want to give up until I succeeded. I finished and published my book while I had cancer because breaking the silence by telling my story was so important, like "if it's the last thing I do." Bonnie, why don't you weave your sister's story with yours? My cousin was like a sister to me. She was also abused and sexually assaulted by my brother. She went one way to act out: promiscuity by age 14, ultimate car wreck to end her life. I went the other way: called a prude, and withdrawn. I wove the two to tell the different effects of CSA. If you want, I would be glad to read the stories you have self-published already. I am a great proofreader; I am honest. Plus this topic is my passion and mission: to confront violence against women and children. I'm sorry I got so long on this post; you can see that your post touched a nerve in me.

Bonnie, to further answer your question, I was told when I was 25 that I had a story to write and a mission to fulfill. It toom me until I was 45 to write it, using notes and journals and bits of poetry I'd kept through the years. So, it took me 20 years to write it. Once I started to write, like Dianne, the phrases and flashes and sentences and memories just came to me, as if by divine guidance. Then, it took me 3 years from starting to actually write to complete publishing. One of the things that held me back in the 3 years was the constant self-doubt of "should I really tell this story of abuse? For what purpose?" If I'd written a romance novel, I might not have delayed. I love to edit. Hannelore, in a recent post you said you've read your manuscript more than a couple of times. It doesn't sound like you are sick of it. Keep on keeping on.

Bonnie, I lost count of my rewrites. I put it away when I could no longer see it and went back to it over and over again. I think the time away from your MS lets it "cook" and you're refreshed with new ideas when you return.

Bonnie, if you want me to read your manuscript I'd be happy to do it. I will always be honest.

I wish Bonnie would return to see the answers to her questions and the many ways we are trying to support her.

Dear Princess L....
Together, sis and my life story would be too long. Somewhere I gleaned: people today are so busy that books around 200 pages are the most marketable. One book is a combination of my adoptive mom and my life. Thanks for the suggestion. Martina McBride sings it best: "God is great, but sometimes life ain't good!"
Ciao for now,
bonnierose

Dear bws...
I surely do appreciate the support. My husband and I have been in Kissimmee, Florida--at Tropical Palms RV Park, across from Old Town--and then on to Memphis to visit family. I just returned, today. I love your answers and suggestions. I've been working on these stories since 1998. But during the first few, self-publishing projects, I was unaware I had PTSD. I have constant flashbacks. I was sexually abused twice as a child, at age 7 and again age 12; I've been through a divorce and found my biological mom and 10 siblings, after 48 years. They lived within miles all that time. Most recently, I watched my best friend drugged and abused and had to put my dog down. None of that recent stuff helps nerves strung tighter than a stringed instrument. But I'm fine. And I'll keep on keeping on. Love ya!!!
bonnie rose

Hi BR, I'm glad to see you are back on this thread, but not so glad to hear all that you have been through. You have 10 TEN siblings? How emotional that must have been to see that they were under your nose all the while. I am well aware that CSA leads to PTSD. You can/will learn to manage the symptoms of PTSD even if there is no cure. Lots of love and light will help! PL

Dear Queen of Shoes and Princess Lenora,
Both of you gals offered to read my manuscripts. And I'm very grateful for your kindness. Hopefully, expressiveness within this current rewrite will be clear enough for reader consumption.
I'm working on my sister's story now. It's only about 1/3 complete. Let me work on completing this manuscript and I'll gratefully share it with you ladies and anyone else willing to take their time to look it over. I prefer to receive frank observation prior to publishing.
I appreciate bws, so much!!!
Ciao for now,
bonnierose