I'm not sure how to talk about this, but i think many women in the past also kept quiet about what was happening in their homes because of the added trauma of the 'treatment' they might possibly have to endure by professionals. At 18 i entered the psychiatric nursing program,when i graduated, i did not feel i was in anyway equipped for the job. The words which come so easy today were not even in the vocabulary then. Our text books did not include such things as rape victim, assault, incest. The patient population was around 4,000. In long term areas for 90 patients, there was a charge, 2nd, two students and an aide, in short term areas it would be the same staff for 30. Be admitted more than twice, you went to a higher populated building. No female doctors around, the buildings were massive. A woman entering the short term building could expect a visit with doctor once a week, and could talk to a student (18 to 20 years old) possibly for 20 min a couple of times a week. ECT and phenobarbs were primary cure alls. When we are hurting, we need love, laughter even. If anything these people couldn't have been more isolated, alone and scared. And the stigma of having been 'in the mental hospital' would follow them for life.

How sad and awful.

My wonderful aunt was put in a mental hospital many years ago because she was having a break down. They gave her those awful shock treatments. She forgot important events like the birth of her children, etc. It was a very bad time for her. Breaks my heart that she went through that.

norma, your post reminds me of how far the mental health profession has come. Thank God. You make some very good points. How long did you work as a psychiatric nurse? What a calling.

Your aunt has my empathy Dotsie, if she's still alive please give her a hug from me. I remember one patient who had been c/o pain in the groin area, the doctor (???) put half the electrode (? i cant remember the right word) any way put it on her pubic bone and gave her a shot of electricity, then turned to us, smiled and quietly said 'that'll keep her from complaining about that'.

A small incident, but maybe it explains some of a patient's situation in those hell holes.

Oh God, some of those in power at that time.... and the top god's there were always male.

To answer your question.. because i was pregnant i got married right after grad. That's 1965 eh, people did not have 'children out of wedlock' then. It was groundbreaking then, to say i was even pregnant before i was married. The norm then was to have 'premature babies' who surprise, surprise were 8 plus pounds.

I did not renew my licence when the time came 5 years later. I had enough on my plate by then. And besides, i had come to the firm belief that the 'experts' knew ...... all.

Having had the ticket though did open doors to in other situations. Thanks for asking Dotsie.

It was my aunt. She passed away last year but we talked about it before she died.

That doctor should have been castrated for doing that to that poor woman. Makes my blood boil. Talk about abuse!

i'm sorry Dianne, i seen the D's and didn't look closer, my apologizes, the subject is so sensitive to me, and gets my blood up, so i blur out many things.

I can not blame staff though in general though,

a) money wasn't available to hire more staff

b)birth control pills had just arrived and the debate was still going on 'whether they would break up families, cause a lowering of morality etc,' Unplanned, undesired pregnancies kept women in abusive situations, which undoubtedly led to many 'nervous breakdowns' as the diagnosis was so often called.

In so many ways the world is getting better.
I think the birth control pill did more to change society then any other invention.

Again, my apologizes Dianne, if your aunt made it back, (long term areas had patients who had been in 30 and more years) if your aunt made it back, you've got excellent genes in your body).

Norma, you ought to read my book. I write about being in a psych ward twice. I am a victim of incest. As a teen I acted out in alternate bouts of rebellion and withdrawal. At 15 my mother/step f put me in a psych ward for 3 months (until insurance ran out.) At 21 I admitted myself rather than sit on the train tracks. (stayed until insurance ran out) I write about how the psych nurse, was the only caring person around. However, no one ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever broached the subjects of incest. I was treated for anxiety and depression, and never for the undlerlying cause, which, by the way, seemed to be MY fault, and not my fathers or my brothers fault, as they went on to live their own lives. I was treated with Haldohl, which CAUSED psychotic reactions. I am only too thankful that I avoided ECT because the psych model was moving away from that treatment. However, truth serum was still being used a plenty. The psych nurses that facilitated the group therapies and the psych aides that facilitated the social/recreational activities were real people and angels on earth to be working in those hell holes.

Hi Lynnie ...i can only begin to imagine how horrified, how terrified you must have been when someone was being so evil to you. I mean before you ended up in the psyc. ward...

There is evil and no other words can descripe it. And you were just a child when somebody began betraying and terrifying you, that means the evil is ten thousand times worse! How you made it through Lynnie, i dont know how but you have a special courage and strength.

We are soo fortunate to be living today, when there are tremendous changes in understanding.
Your book will help heal many many people.
and i imagine it also helped heal you while you wrote it. Even though the writing would have been so painful.

I will never forget standing at the window looking down into the night fog with a patient who was the same age as myself. She had been admitted for a second attempt at suicide. But i couldn't see why that was an unreasonable thing to want to do in her situation.

Why wasn't her father in here instead of her i meekly asked the 'doctor' during the conference session. Students were not suppose to question
anything then, much less the psychiatrist. His reply Lynnie, was that she must have enjoyed it, as she didn't try leaving home.

The world has come a long long long way since then. I could say thank God, but i dont, i say thanks to so many courageous people like yourself who have the strength to keep speaking up
and who will continue to make this world a safer place. Good on you Lynnie, good on you for coming back!!!

I believe every one ever born enters this world from a place of absolute love and understanding, and we know about love before we enter cells.
But if we get too much hurt for too long, we can do evil things. Who ever hurt you wasn't born
expecting to hurt anyone, but it sure happens.

I wish i could send you ten thousand whatevers to help you know you are so precious.

She must have enjoyed it? What rock did that doctor crawl out from under? The nerve and the mindset. Man oh man...

These things used to boggle my mind as well Dianne, how could an individual think this way?

Now i realize it was whole groups of society that thought and believed utterly outrageous things,
and many still do. But it is changing. Too slow though.

How could a massive number of people believe women were less intelligent then men, or that strapping kids in school would solve a behavior problem or that certain races shouldn't have the same rights as others, or that certain weapons should ever be developed, produced and used?

How can some people today believe a torment forever in an afterlife is justified for whatever evil behavior?

Now i realize the doctor was an idiot, with power unfortunatedly that still is not uncommon.

You know how the peck system works, boss yells at employee, he comes home yells at wife and down the ladder it goes. We all have power over something, even if it is just an ant in front of us.

We've always put doctors in a lofty position. They can save lives, they can heal the sick. No wonder they have God complexes!

They can look down their nose at a battered woman and send her home without asking any questions that might change the direction of their lives.

My doctor in Ohio was fun and interesting but he was a jerk in some ways. One time he told me I was a rescuer because I was trying to help battered women. I just gave him a long, cold stare and said, "Well, what does that make you? You're trying to save people too and haven't you sent some of your patients to see me for help?" He could see something as he wanted to see it. He was the Great Healer and I was a rescuer.

Like you, I could go on and on about doctors and the judicial system and how they further abuse a victim. We just take it one step at a time and try to educate those who don't have a clue.

Words are clothes that thoughts wear. In otherwords, sometimes people verbalize their thoughts, and sometimes these thoughts are uneducated.

"His reply Lynnie, was that she must have enjoyed it, as she didn't try leaving home." We all know how appalling this is. We all know that victims are threatened with their lives, or the lives of their mothers, others, siblings, whomever, if they tell, leave, scream, etc. And this: "But i couldn't see why that was an unreasonable thing to want to do in her situation." That is certainly a strong dose of compassion and understanding. I learned this from my counseling when I was "bouncing back" from that suicide attempt: "I believe every one ever born enters this world from a place of absolute love." I had never heard that concept before because I had grown up Catholic, which instilled in me the notion that we were all born sinners. I took things very literally. It was a revelation to have my Mormon therapist tell me that we are born to love and be loved!

That is exactly what a doctor said to me Dianne,'Do you have a need to rescue?' Only i didn't have your courage to confront him .

Like you Lynnie, i have also attempted suicide,
i was about 34. I think it is a dark family secret. None of my relatives have ever mentioned it - to me. Maybe they thought it was/is, a kindness to say nothing. i don't know. Maybe it's something i'm suppose to be ashamed of. i dont know.

You had been taught Lynnie that 'all are born sinners', were you also taught 'and all continue to sin'?

It's a self fulling prophesy eh. I was born bad, and will continue to do bad things.

Where's the hope, the excitment,
where's the wonder that makes life good ?

I wonder if our world would be different if we were taught....
Everyone is made of star dust and born holy but fragile' "And everyone will remain fragile"

thanks for replying dianne and lynnie

Oh Norma, I am so sorry you experienced the despair of suicide. The Deseridata helped me: "You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars." We were born good, meant to do good works! That's why you are still here, my dear! Love and Light, Lynn P.S. We are strong!

thank you Lynnie you are a sweetheart!! And you are correct, we are strong. and we are intelligent!! And often a hell of lot more intelligent than many of those giving orders etc.... (maybe that's how the some of the confusion begins, trying to figure out, what's going on, why are basic rules of kindness being so ignored ? What am i missing?) I think you know what i mean. (and i think now, if we leave too soon, we might have to come back..and start all over. Oh lord what if we came back as some burqa covered woman in the middle east?. No, we'll finish the job eh, and enjoy as much as we can while we try to do as best we can.....thanks again lynn

Norma, so many times I heard: "there is a reason you survived." I could not fathom my reason for being on earth. Lately, instead of thinking there has to be a reason, I believe that I am here just because that is what God wants period. I try not to question the reason for being anymore. I don't know if I believe in reincarnation. I believe in an afterlife. I believe in finishing business, and I definitly would have gone with unfinished business. I finished a lot of business with the grace of God in the last 2 decades. I have also learned gratitude. I often know that I am more intelligent than many of the people who have superior positions than I. They had more education, more luck, more opportunity, more ability, less trauma. You mentioned shame. I no longer feel ashamed that I attempted suicide because I now understand the reasons...it was not my fault I was sexually assaulted as a child. Suicide was a way out of the pain. But I do regret that I spent so many years in PTSD and thus was unable to concentrate on an education. I would have loved to use the God given intelligence for good. That's one regret: I feel like I wasted the intelligence. I have to remind myself to enjoy. en JOY. I try to do the best that I can most of the time. It sounds to me that you were in professions where kindness and compassion became less important while the "bottom line" (dollars) became more important, and you could not reconcile that in your heart.

Hello Lynnie.. the 'mount cashel scandal' in canada opened discussions here of the physical, emotional and sexual abuse of boys.

I've come to believe because women, like yourself, have been willing to share their stories and the need for healing, young male victims of sexual abuse have been encouraged to speak out and seek help.

Just as gender makes no difference in our need for protection and love, it makes no difference when it comes to pain, fear, anger.

I've also come to believe there are many older men who were molested or raped when boys, but who will never talk about it for a number of reasons.

And they, just like female victims, will self destruct in various ways and unintentionally hurt those closest to them along the way until they start to heal.

And the joy you mentioned, the joy which should be part of everyone's life, is not theirs or those who live with them, until healing begins.
Though it be one small step at a time, healing can take place.

I'm not sure if what i've said here is relevent to what we've been talking about, but wanted to share these thoughts, as it seems many of us in this site think along the same lines on many things.

Reasons: I've heard people say that Nicole Brown Simpson's death was a blessing in disguise because it created so much awareness regarding dv. I say, it was a senseless, brutal death that should have never happened. There was no good in it!

We're all here for a reason. Sometimes we have trouble trying to figure out why though, right?

My 17 year old granddaughter is visiting and told me she was always attracted to the bad boys. I gave her a copy of my book and told her to read it. It's time for that. It's opened up a lot of discussion about dv.

[ November 12, 2005, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Dianne ]

Dianne, I'd love to hear what your granddaughter has to say about your book. How cook is that for her to be able to read Nana's book?

i agree Dianne... violence or even threats of violence can never be justified, no matter what happens as the result. We may try to make changes because of our experiences, but that doesn't mean our experiences were part of an over arching plan.(

She's reading a little each night and will suddenly ask me questions about things that happened. We have great talks every night and I'm really enjoying her. She's at such a confusing age right now. Her and her father aren't getting along. I'm trying to remain nuetral and just listen.

Well, well, well, when people try to be polite and tell me that "you wouldn't be who you are today if you hadn't experienced what you experienced" I say "I'd like to see who I might have become if I had NOT experienced what I experienced. It's not easy being me." Dianne, it is great that your granddaughter has you to talk to! Today when I was driving I was thinking about how stupid I was to have married an abusive man was I was 19. Then I passed a broke down car. You know what? I was a broke down girl trying to get to adulthood. How could I get to my destination of adulthood with my parts all broken down? Norma, of course what you wrote is relevant. My brother, who molested me, was sexually abused, only he does not remember it. He lives a joy less life. My memory is a blessing and a curse. At least by remembering I can know what I need to heal from, and thus eventually find joy.

Oh Lynnie, you are so honest about what is in your heart. and never ever, ever should any one know such hurts.

If it's okay,i want to say something about the person you mentioned who sexually abused you, although i could be right off base here ...
but if the person, was also sexually abused, he may well remember, but deny it ever happened with a very straight face.

We know one's body can be manipulated into certain sexual reactions whether the victim wanted that to happen or not. But when that happens to a boy, what prevents him, from naively believing not only..'because of my reactions i must have been part to blame' 'something is really wrong with me', or 'i didn't refuse so i must also be guilty' but also 'maybe i am really deep inside homosexual'. A terrifying thought to a male who doesn't want to be considered homosexual.

Their guard is up forever, until they begin to realize .... they were not to blame, it didn't mean they are secret homosexuals, they will not be rejected when others find out, in fact others, who are special to them, will begin to understand why the nightmares which could never be remembered, why the drinking, the distrust, the anger always below the surface and etc. and etc.
and etc. Others too will finally have a chance to heal.

You were not 'stupid' Lynn when you married an abusive man. If anything a deep goodness more often then not gets people into bad relationships. The goodness, that wants to believe the best of others.

Trying to remain nuetral is becoming increasingly difficult. My son kicked my granddaughter out of the house. Sure, she's made some mistakes but not anything a kid at that age doesn't do. It seems like he's set her up for failure. He called and I didn't mention anything but he has to know that I know and of course, I'm only hearing one side of the story.

But...my son has told me he treats her differently than his two younger sons. Like his father, I don't think he necessarily likes females. The things he says to her are the very things his father said to him. It's like reliving history.

So, she's staying with a couple who has a young child. But, the woman called yesterday and said they are moving to CO in three months and does she want to move with them? She's in a tailspin over this. So, I'm trying to help her weigh the pros and cons of it.

Any advice ladies?

Dianne, you said 'he kicked her out' . How is a kid suppose to make it out on her/his own at 17, or whatever? Where was she suppose to go ? If i have no where to go, no sense of security, and those most important to me have 'kicked me out'i'll turn to the first persons who seems friendly.. if she hasn't been lured into an even worse situation by now thank god eh! What better prey for the g d coke dealer than a hurting, naive young person,

There are differences between being 'kicked out',
'given the choice to live under certain rules or leave' and being 'driven out' because one can no longer cope with an unreasonable situation.

Can she not live with her grandma? Her grandma who obviously loves her and who she apparently loves to?

And who among any of us haven't made 'mistakes'?
Particularly those so demanding of others?
I've come to the conclusion that those who are the meanest, have generally made more bad decsions caused more trouble for themselves and others, than any of those they end up berating, belittling, bullying, etc. etc. etc. etc. would ever dream of doing.

I'm going to call my son and talk to him. Norma, she doesn't want to leave AZ. Her friends are there, that's where she grew up, etc.

Wow, Dianne, I can't believe he dared to kick her out. How unfair, and how dangerous to her well being.

Dianne, i just read the amber alert on web page you have..... oh god, that is terrible, and if this girl is found safely --- how does she survive---?? How does she continue to want to live? If God exists, may she be given a thousand angels to protect her right now, if God does not exist, may all those who have ever gone before us and still live elsewhere, come to her rescue, and help her in all ways possible.

I know, Norma. My blood ran cold when I read it.

Lynnie, I called my son last night and we had a long talk. Seems Tash refuses to follow the rules of the house. She graduated midterm and refuses to get a job. He told her she had to be home by a certain time during the week because he can't sleep until he knows she's home and safe and she also refused to follow that rule. He bought her a car and all she does is complain about what a piece of crap it is. On and on.

But, this is what really bothers me. She's been living with a married couple who have a young child. I don't know if they want a built in babysitter or what but I asked my son about this woman and he said she had given Tash pot and alcohol. She also called her and said they are moving to CO and does she want to move with them!!! I'm really doing some fast talking to talk her out of that! My son says this woman doesn't require anything of Tash...no responsibility...nothing. When my son called this woman and confronted her, she hung up on him.

I've been telling her she has to get into a trade school of some kind or find a job at a bank when she turns 18 in January. I'm doing a lot of talking but I can't tell if she's really listening or not.

Hi Dianne, you've heard both sides of the story. When I ran away from home at 17 I lived with a family. The mother called my mother periodically to let her know I was safe. There was no animosity between my family and my "adoptive" family. My family said they couldn't "deal" with me anymore. I couldn't "deal" with my family anymore! I was safer with the other family for a summer. At least there was cooperation, not hang ups. I think your granddaughter should be applying to schools now, or have a job now. Preparation takes time. It sounds like moving to CO will not solve anything but only present more problems.

We continue to have long, probing talks every night as we sit on the front porch. I think she's listening to me but not sure. I did upset her when I told her what I'd like to do to that 40 year old woman (kick her a**) and told her good people didn't give alcohol to 17 year olds.

I'm very frank and honest with her. I spoke to her about birth control last night. I think she was shocked that I brought it up. I told her the decisions she's making now could very well determine the outcome of her adult years. Be smart!

Dianne, KEEP TALKING. They love it, whether they admit it, or not.

As far as the other family goes, it could be a blessing, if the family has their heads on straight. Big if.

You are a wonderful grandmother. Keep doing what you're doing. LOVE HER!

Reading all this is so sad. My former neighbor was sexually abused as a toddler by her grandpa. She's 49 now and still bears the scars. She called me one day in tears telling me she was going to get in her car and turn on the engine with her then, toddler. I calmed her down and told her what a wonderful mother she was and that suicide was not the answer. Today she is doing a lot better and even adopted a beautiful little Chinese girl that her and husband brought back from Beijing in September.
As for parents putting out their young teenage children, I cannot fathom it. My home is always a safe haven for my children. I've tried to teach my daughter about being aware of abusive men and that if she ever made the mistake of marrying one she should leave and come back home if she needed to.
I've also read that for some reason some women are actually attracted to serial killers and other equally dangerous men! I read about California's Night Stalker a guy named Ramirez or something close to that. He's got hundreds of women admirers!
Thank God people are talking about abuse now and making everyone more aware of it. Thank you, brave women who tell their stories so that the world can know about it.

[ November 15, 2005, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: ladybug ]

Ladybug wrote: "Thank you, brave women who tell their stories so that the world can know about it." I decided to acknowledge this and say hey, I think she might have meant me, for one! I should say, "You're welcome!" I think that some women are attracted to dangerous men because they have been in perilous relationships and they gravitate toward the familiar. Or, the concept of the moth to the flame.

Geraldo will air today. Hope you can watch it.

Lynnie, I had a huge argument with my mother last night. I feel like I'm a bad daughter but I just couldn't take her saying bad things about my aunt, her sister, who recently passed away. I just went off on her. I'm gonna need some help from those of you who suffered at the hands of an abusive parent.

Get rid of the guilts, Dianne. Guilt is a trap that abusive people know how to use. Waaay better than we ever will. If you warned her to be quiet about a subject and she kept pressing, she deserves whatever you said. Maybe she'll be mad at you now and give you a little peace.

I hate it when parents play the guilt card. Mine never did, but the ** STB ex's mom did. She was a master and she ruined all of her children with it. She puts the 'fun' in dysfunctional.

Thanks Unique. I'll post more later.

Okay ladies, start praying. Geraldo is sending a car for me in 30 minutes to take me to the studio for my interview. I've done two pre-interviews with his producer, which went very well. Please pray there are battered women who will see this short interview and change their lives. Thanks so much!!!

Good luck Dianne. My prayers that God will guide those who need to hear you. You are making a difference in someone's life today. God Bless you for believing.
chick

I'm taping it right now (or at least I think I am!!) and will watch tomorrow.

I am such a doofus when it comes to televisions. When is it on? Did I miss seeing Dianne?

Suzieq, I hope your day brightens. You have emptied your heart in this post and I hope it did some good. Unfortunately there are people who will take advantage of us just because they know they can. You on the other hand came through all these experiences as cautious and mistrusting. You find it difficult to leave your home. Are you seeking any counselling for this? Do you think you could benefit?
I am adding you to my prayer list today. I pray that you find comfort and peace beyond your front door. God Bless You.
chick

Oh Dear Suzie, I am so sorry for your pain. As you can see from my signature below, I too am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse (including incest) and young adulthood domestic violence. There seemed to be no where I could go without being violated. In my pre-teens and adolescence, I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety, and was hospitalized for it several times. I am grateful that I never had to under go ECT because in the 60s and 70s it appeared to be drastic measures. I understand agraphobibia because I could have slipped into that condition considering the severe panic attacks I suffered from. My family treated me, the victim, as if I was the cause of the trouble. What, if any, support systems do you have now? My take on sexual assault and domestic violence survivors, as well as mental illness, is that these conditions cannot be "cured" but they can be "managed" via treatments, including drug therapy if indicated by a physician, talk therapy, self-help, self-care, introspection (including journaling) and support systems, etc. You are not a downer or a whiner. You have a right to state the traumatic experiences of your life, because it has not been easy. You could do a search for the 1450 posts I've made in the last year, and you can see that I never really let up about the fact that I experienced trauma. Hey, you might want to search the Featured Author section for April. I was the Featured Author. Maybe you'll find some of the discussion with the forum ladies regarding my book helpful. Or you can visit my site and see many of the resources available to you. One thing I want you to always know is that you are not alone. By not discussing your trauma when you were a child, your family set you up for silence, shame, and isolation. It's time to break those chains, become free, and talk about what is bothering you without thinking that you are coming across as a whiner. Love and Light, Lynn

The past can't be put to bed and forgotten until it's dealth with. It only gets worse if you try.

I'm sure at this point, you don't trust a therapist, which I understand but there are good ones out there that can help you.

I'm really sorry you're going through this and for the past abuse inflicted on you. Thank you for sharing with us.

Have you ever considered a support group for survivors of sexual assault? I think it would really help validate you. There is nothing like another person who understands exactly how you feel. I highly recommend it and our Lynnie could probably find you one.

Suzie, it is true that in this day and age psychiatrists are more inclined toward dispensing medications and ECT and evaluations. Talk therapy and counseling is 65% done by social workers, other therapist are master's in counseling and/or psychologists. There are many forms of counseling. "Here and now" is just one form. How did you come upon your current therapist? Do you have access to trying another? Discussing my past was a huge part of my healing, and I never would have come so far without the freedom of learning how the past affects the present. If you can't discuss it with your therapist, then do what you've been doing by journaling. The most helpful counselors (one in my 20s, the other in my 40s) both happened to be named Karen (an odd coincidence) and both were LCSW: licensed clinical social workers. Do you like to read? I can think of books by Kay Redfield Jamison pertaining to bi-polar that are excellent memoirs. Suzie, the silencing of your trauma has had a real damaging affect on you. You are not responsible for his actions upon you, nor are you responsible for what he may have done to others. Whether or not you told has nothing to do with his behavior. Probably even if you had told, the most he would have gotten would have been a slap on the wrist. I assume this happened a long time ago. Even in this decade, perpetrators get very light sentences if reported and convicted, like 4-6 months, if anything at all, and then they are released to molest again. Do not feel guilty. You were in a no win situation. There was nothing you could do. You reached out to your roomate and you were given mis information. My step mother told me the same thing when I told her that my brother had molested me. His sexual assault of me ruined my life, until I took control just 4 or 5 years ago. It's taken everything I've got to not feel guilt or shame. You can live a more joyful and fulfilling life too. You can private message me if you want. Perhaps your counselor can recommend a support group. There is much healing in groups. How do you get to your appointments with the a-phobia? Love and Light, Lynn

I was rushing through the room but heard a small portion of the news that some woman was going to marry a serial rapist. She must need the attention.

SuzieQ, I knew our Lynnie would be able to help you. She's great.