I read that in a book: "When Love Goes Wrong...What To Do When You Can't Do Anything Right"...probably 10 years ago; one of the authors has since died.

That statement made such an impact on me. Violence is violence, just as rape is rape, etc......it somehow quantifies it as different?

I am the moderator of an abused survivors' group, and overcame and transcended a childhood of abuse and poverty, only to "marry" the original abuser and try to fix the past.

After 36 years of abuse, I found the courage to do the only thing that terrified me (be alone)...get a divorce.

I didn't understand there was a name as to what was happening to me: VERBAL Abuse, until I found the book that named it and saved my life: The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans; I feel this book should be required reading for everyone on the planet. 1 in 3 women are being abused; I have written 3 papers; one of them is called: "Society's Hidden Epidemic''Verbal Abuse--Precursor to all violence and a Form of Biochemical Assault."

I am passionate about the subject and have been writing to the media for over 10 years.

Perhaps my memoir: Ghost Child to Triumph (from a child with no voice, to someone who speaks up against injustice).....being edited by ChattyLady ...by the way.....will open up a dialogue or get me on Oprah, finally!

www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com (what happened to me when I got a divorce)...oh, great....now I know about spiritual....abuse

I went back to school at age 61,and won a women's scholarship; I was 1 of 10 receipients out of 1,600 applicants in the U.S. and Canada; it was easy; all I had to do was write about my life.

I've taken the horror and poverty and have done something positive with it (memoir).....I believe I was meant to do that.

Love to all, Alice (over comer and wounded-healer)

But it is different. Not better or excusable, but different. (And please let me say good on you for recognizing your situation and eventually getting out of it). Domestic violence tells me partner, often love connection, ongoing verbal or physical abuse, victim often blamed or blames herself, shame at admitting it, often refuses to cooperate with law enforcement because of emotional attachments and lack of resources.

But, you know, people already know this is violence; because of their own histories or phychological situation they don't respond to it the way they'd respond to a smacking by a stranger. If some stranger belted you in a store you'd likely press charges, no question. You wouldn't be wondering what you did to deserve that black eye or try to hide the results from your relatives -- or tell the police that you were sure he'd stop. But just as we don't treat our family members the same way we treat outsiders, we have these complicated emotional feelings about abuse that occurs from someone we know.

Maybe you are correct, though: if we just referred to it as violence we might raise the bar: the batterers could expected to be tried -- no excuses that their religion permits it or they were being nagged -- and the victims would be expected to treat the assaults just as they would something from a stranger. No hiding and no pretending it was nothing.

Right now, though, -- even though it doesn't happen enough, we know that women who are abused need extra help in breaking the cycle of abuse (men too when they are the battered ones) -- and these folks should get it. You know, that's why a lot of states have passed laws permitting the the batterer to be prosecuted without help from the victim -- because someone has to step in and often the victim just can't find it in herself to do it because of fear of consequences. We have a long way to go, that's for sure.

As I said....violence is violence...whether it happens in a home or outside.....we don't need to use the word "domestic"...it is irrelevant.

Yes, we have a long way to go, and I will never stop writing to the media, etc....to get that message out there.

I have written 3 papers (as I may have mentioned) on verbal abuse, and submitted one for the American Counseling Association Convention, next year.

Hi Alice. I'd like you to visit my apartment complex.

My nice neighbor downstairs came to my door (after the police arrived) the night her boyfriend held a knife to her throat. She went back to him and they moved out last month.

My new, single neighbor across the hall from me (2nd floor) has a child. Two weekends ago she had a fight with a guy while holding her front door open so I could hear everything. Screaming so loud I peeped through the peephole (that's what it's for, right?) She's yelling, "Get out of my house!" at the top of her lungs and he's tanding next to her saying, "Let me stay." While I watched he spit in her face. I don't know if she threw the knife at him before or after that happened.

They went downstairs and I yelled out the window that she should call 911 or I would. A guy friend of hers came by and they went upstairs. The police came. I did not call them.

Violence is everywhere. At home, in the schoolyard, in the workplace. I surely hope you find the source so it can be knocked out.

Looking for the end to domestic and any kind of violence is like discovering the 'holy grail', or like finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!! In fact it has escalated to the extreme and with our economy the way it is, more and more men are likely to be killing their entire family and then themselves. We are in a serious meltdown ladies and I for one am scared to death about the outcome. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but fact is fact!

1 in 3 women are being abused...those are horrifying statistics. Unless we bring up our children to be respectful of themselves and others, the violence will not end. It's a recursive cycle.....generation to generation. My sister and I stopped that cycle.

I will never stop trying to get the message out there; my goal is to eventually get on a talk show or national news show.

I got the feeling you didn't listen to a single word I said, but that's fine; maybe I was babbling. Best wishes to you.

Not sure what you mean; perhaps you can help me understand?

Best wishes to you, also

I have been invited to speak on the subject on the radio shortly, and will do my best to get the message out there.

I firmly believe that an individual's emotions, behaviors and beliefs stem from childhood. Therefore, abused children display their underlying pain through anger and exhibit their abusive parent's behavior. I believe that when a child has been physically, emotionally, and verbally abused, they may feel as if they have to work twice as hard to be half as good as others.

Ellmann, I understand what you are saying; that there IS a difference between domestic violence and plain old violence. Domestic violence being; the victim isn't always able to prosecute for personal reasons.

Alice, I wish you the best of luck with your radio interview. Just alone on this site, there are several authors who have written books on this subject.

Yes, I agree with you Ellman....and Edelweiss, I never thought of it like that.....for prosecution reasons.....but there is no difference between domestic violence or any other kind of violence. It is the same when they call it "date" rape.....that makes me crazy too......adding different words to something that is simply....violence or rape.

Thankyou Edelweiss for good wishes on the radio interview; I hope someday to go national with that message!

Working in schools, we spend quite a bit of time trying to prevent bullying. Bullying is a form of violence. Gossip and rumors is another form of violence.

To me, anything that hurts another, purposefully, is a form of violence.

In many regards, I like the different terms. There is almost a hierarchy of violent acts. If a person gets away with one form, they may move up the scale to a more horrible form.

I am not a fan of domestic violence, as a term, however. Domestic violence runs the same continuum as any other sort of violence. There is verbal, bullying, physical, emotional, and others. Sometimes there is only one form, other times many forms.

In response to the "date rape" term, I think it is important to acknowledge that many (most, perhaps???) rapes are perpetrated by someone a woman/girl may know. Rape done by relatives is called incest, by a stranger simply rape, by a married couple - I do not know the term, but surely there must be one.

Violence is violence, I agree, and horrid and punishable, no matter the form of violence. But, for me, the labels are important for the purposes of prevention. If we know what forms of violence are taking place, they are more easily preventable by knowledge, before hand, and prosecution, after the fact.

My rant is done.

Thanks to you all for bringing up such relevant and thought provoking conversation. For the purpose of prosecution, different states have different definitions of domestic violence, sexual assault, and the degrees. I used to wonder about the term "domestic violence" until I worked as a victim advocate, and had to go to court with victims. That is how I learned of the reasons for labels/definitions. Here's the definition I used April 2008 for the NABBW seminar: (I hope this helps to clear up the reasoning for definitions; I also hope we always keep the lines of communication open on this subject)

GENERAL DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE OCCURS WHEN ONE PERSON USES INAPPROPRIATE POWER & CONTROL OVER AN INTIMATE PARTNER.
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS A PATTERN OF ABUSIVE BEHAVIORS.

THESE ABUSIVE BEHAVIORS MAY INCLUDE

VERBAL
SEXUAL
PHYSICAL
ECONOMIC
EMOTIONAL



LEGAL DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE 18-6-800.3

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE MEANS AN ACT OR THREATENED ACT OF VIOLENCE UPON A PERSON WITH WHOM THE ACTOR IS OR HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP. DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ALSO INCLUDES ANY OTHER CRIME AGAINST A PERSON OR AGAINST PROPERTY OR ANY MUNICIPAL ORDINANCE VIOLATION AGAINST A PERSON OR AGAINST PROPERTY, WHEN USED AS A METHOD OF COERCION, CONTROL, PUNISHMENT, INTIMIDATION OR REVENGE DIRECTED AGAINST A PERSON WITH WHOM THE ACTOR IS OR HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN AN INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP.

INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP MEANS A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SPOUSES, FORMER SPOUSES, PAST OR PRESENT UNMARRIED COUPLES, OR PERSONS WHO ARE BOTH THE PARENTS OF THE SAME CHILD REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE PERSONS HAVE BEEN MARRIED OR HAVE LIVED TOGETHER AT ANY TIME.

Prepared by Lynn C. Tolson, author of Beyond the Tears: A True Survivor’s Story, http://www.beyondthetears.com

In response to Ellemm's comments, I learned this: law enforcement dread going on DV calls. However, if there is a brawl at a bar, they can't wait to break it up. Please no offense is meant to those who are in the law enforcement field. Also, in some states, when the cops go on a DV call, someone will be arrested. I have seen the victim arrested, even with fresh bruises and black eyes! I just had the thought that it is ok to use "domestic violence" because there was a time that no one used that term, or knew what it meant. Can we go about changing the term just when the world is beginning to wake up to its meaning? PL

Statistically, law enforcement officers are at their highest danger in responding to domestic violence calls; there is a strong likelihood that one or both people will turn on the cops and start assaulting them. If someone is waving a gun around, the initial victim *and* the cops might get shot. And then there's the problem when someone gets arrested and the other partner suddenly either lets out a lot of pent-up emotion, or the beater threatens the woman, or she starts hitting the cops.

So yeah, there's actually more 'order,' so to speak, in breaking up a bar fight. There's just no way to know how dangerous a domestic situation is and plenty of police have been killed responding to these complaints. (Of course, that doesn't mean they shouldn't respond because that's what they are there for, but I can see why they would dread going on these calls. Add in scared children and neighbors who want to weigh in and it could easily be a nightmare. And, you know, sometimes they get called to the same places again and again. Helping to break that cycle is something we should all be concerned with.)

I am in the "trenches" every day trying to make a difference.....

Love, Alice

Yes, you are Alice, and making a difference every day. xxoo

There are a lot of domestic violence abusers that work w/in the law enforcement fields, too.

What a horrible story......it happens every day. 1 in 3 women are being abused. Until we are educated, it will never stop.

The cost to society is staggering also....court costs, jail, emergency room, shelters, lost wages, time off from work, school etc., etc........

If we don't teach our children respect, they will continue (when they are being abused at home) to repeat that recursive cycle....the "wheel of violence."

Unfortunately thousands of abused women are living in fear, silence and shame and don't know of the resources available, or they are too frightened to reach out.

Verbal abuse is literally....brainwashing. How horrifying is that! "Society asks the wrong question (why does she stay)...the proper question......why does he abuse?

Okay, off my soapbox (for now), LOL

Oh,,,p.s. Abuse (all abuse) is a CHOICE....if it were not the abuser would abuse EVERYONE that aggravates them. Instead, it is all done in silence behind closed doors.

Ellemm, I tend to agree with your statement that law enforcement hate going out to domestic violence calls, the other day I called because the neighbors next to us( before we moved for those who know I am in a new place) woke me at 6 am this past Sunday morning,they were yelling and he was choking her and when they came out they broke it up and the woman got her stuff out and soon left , but later that day she was back and they were drinking and having a good ol time. Its some times a wonder why others call.

I know, its sad, and then the ones that really need help dont get helped because that is the one day the poilce are afraid to go out and arrest or take their time. For me, I would want someone to call, because no one deserves it.

I just couldnt let it happen, they have a son, and if the son sees that its ok or thinks that its ok , he will start , but we can only pray that he doesnt turn out like his dad.

Unfortunately, if you grew up witnessing abuse (unless you are aware of what happened, etc.) a lot of kids grow up to be abusers; that is why 1 in 3 women are being abused. It is a National disgrace. It is a recursive cycle of violence.

I broke that cycle.

I did too. I'm so glad I did,heart breaking that I'm not with my kids more , but as a cousolor told me, you loved your kids enough to leave

Anne: I wish you could meet some of the men I've known, not all of them perfect, but none would be interested in physical abuse or self-abuse (drugs, alcohol). I continue to be amazed by some of the ..jerks you've met.

Either I've been lucky and pleasantly parted ways with guys before my dearie, or there are just certain social circles I just subconsciously avoid.

With 1 in 3 women being abused, unfortunately there is no way to avoid an abuser....abuse crosses all socio-economic lines.

From the highest paid CEO to the lowest paid worker.

(((Anne))): LOL, a good blow up doll; think I will look into that; yes these "men" on the dating sites are about 15; most of them can't even spell!!

In a way I do have a male friend (he is my therapist...only man in my life) went to him for the church debacle (www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com), and fell in love with him. I could write a book (oh, wait....I have, but that story is not in there, LOL!!

Hugs, Alice (and Francesca, my evil twin)

Hurting people, hurt people. Chatty is right: With the bad economy, elder abuse, animal abuse, child abuse, and spousal abuse will skyrocket. It's already happening! God should be brought into the equation, instead of taken out!

Wow, this is an intense discussion. Rachel, I like what your counselor said about you loved your children enough to leave an abuser. I wonder why women need to take karate, and/or carry mace. I mean, I wish the world was peaceful enough that we did not have to carry potential weapons to protect ourselves from predators of our own kind! Ellem, if I recall correctly, you were saying that if a woman got assaulted by a stranger, she probably would not hesitate to press charges. There was a time when I would have thought I deserved to be assaulted. Let's say I was in a grocery store parking lot, putting my groceries in the trunk and a punk came by and knocked me to the ground, stole my purse, and ran away. I would not have reported this. I would have thought, Oh, it's my fault... I should not have been wearing these shorts, I should not have been bending over, I should not have been hungover. Yikes, what learned helplessness! After all, I was told by my very own family that I was worthless, useless, and in the way. So, maybe I would have thought that I was in the way of this punk, and I deserved to be shoved to the ground. There is way too much hurt on this planet, human to human violence.

Anne wrote: "and I often wonder if the victim ever gets arrested out of fear of acknowledging the accuser." Yes, yes, yes. I was a victim advocate at a DV shelter. OMG I remember one woman, about our age. She came in on a Monday morning, black and blue, and swollen, and limping. She had spent the night in jail. On the Sunday before, her boyfriend had been beating her, and she was able to get to the phone. When the cops came, the boyfriend was such a good charming talker and manipulator that he had the cops believing it was her fault. Apparently he showed the officer a tiny pinch mark she had made on his arm. She was so victimized, silent, hurt, confused, that she was not able to speak up for herself, so she went to jail. I am so thankful that she had the presence of mind to come to the shelter the next morning. Oh, it was someone in the criminal justice system that told her about the shelter during the victim's overnight stay.

Those of you with delicate constitutions, please don't read this post.

I used to say that -- if every time a man raped a woman, he had his balls cut off -- the incidence of rape would go way down.

I'm a strong advocate of fighting back, and fighting hard.

I wish that were the remedy, Meredith, but I'm afraid Anne is right.

It's too bad the sweet talking, con artists are believed before
the truth-telling public is. I know evildoers who lie easier
than most of us breathe. And the sad thing is, law enforment
believe their lies. What a crock of crackers that is!

Divine, I like your solution! LOl...

Don't you just love the name "Bobbitt" in association with
the act itself!!!

Least we forget ladies, most law enforcement officers are MEN so why would we expect anything better from some of them.

I saw Lorena Bobbit and assh/le Bobbit, her ex, on a late show not too long ago and they shook hands and both apologized to one another, but you could see by her body language she hates this guy still today. GOOOOOOOO Lorena!

I don't know; this is definitely making me uncomfortable. I know this thread started out about domestic violence but now it seems to be about rape and revenge. I understand these feelings but it's not like women don't dish out a great deal of abuse themselves. Child abuse is the one crime where women match men blow for blow. What's our punishment for the women who beat, maim, and kill their own children? What body part shall we cut off? If abuse is always a choice we have no excuses for the things some of us do, either.

Just recently, I think I read somewhere, where child sexual
abuse perps are mostly men. There are a lot of sicko women out
there too, but generally they are victims, as well. IMO we
are only kidding around on this thread. Many of us have been
divorced or abused by some joker, and so we take out our toxic
attitudes with words, only. Don't take us too seriously Ellemm.
Chatty, Ed3 and some of the rest of us are only goofing off!

Yes, I know that rape is about power, not sex -- but when women fight back in very un-pretty ways, the balance of power gets shifted. Men abuse their power because they can, and they get away with it. If men think there's high odds they'll get Bobbitized -- they'll learn that force is not in their best interests.

Unfortunately, children often have no way of fighting back. Abuse is unforgivable in all circumstances, and should be punished with a lot more than a slap on the wrist.

Divine,
I agree that the punishment for abuse, abuse of any kind, should be metered out to the full extent of the law. Some abusers are getting too light of a sentence. Then they get out of jail and do the same thing to another innocent victim. They ought to be hung in town square, in fact; oops, just kiddin'!

Goofing off my aunt fannie. I mean every word of what I said. And in what Universe is someone saying men and women as abusers are equal??????????????????????????? That is absurb, ridiculous and better check your facts, I have! That is so far off its scary. The facts are that for every 2 women who abuse a child, there are 160 men that are far worse. I personally believe that those two women should be punished as severly as any man, no excuses. Anyone, man or woman, who abuses a child or animal that can't fight back better hope their punishment isn't decided by ME!

Chatty,
Love post 185749! And the same holds true for elder abuse. If put on a jury deciding punishment for any type of abuse to a living creature who can't fight back, God help the guilty party! And I didn't really mean my Aunt Fannie was goofing off, either! Just appeasing the critics! LOL... The way you feel is the way I feel.

That was me and I stand by it. I'm not talking about sexual abuse, I'm talking about 'ordinary' beating your kid -- and in this area women are just as likely to harm their kids as men are. And yes, I have checked my facts. There are plenty of kids in emergency rooms and graves because of their mothers. Jusd check the news: it's not one bit unusual to learn that some woman has just been arrested for beating or even killing her kids. Usually it's drugs, alcohol, immaturity, poverty, or just plain craziness, but there's way too much of it out there and women are not innocent bystanders in this particular area. Men may be more likely to knock a child unconscious or kill him, but women, who are with their children far more, dish out plenty of verbal and physical abuse. Sometimes it's brutal.

I agree it's too bad all mothers aren't good mothers. Plenty of
us can testify to both sides of that coin!

"Usually it's drugs, alcohol, immaturity, poverty, or just plain craziness"
This is a stereo type that only perpetuates the myth that abuse does not occur in "my back yard." Especially offensive is implied notion that if a family is poor then there is more likely abuse occurring in the family. What is the definition of "immaturity?" Of course, many men and/or women may be 40 and have the maturity of a adolescent. It is a matter of checking the facts independent of the bias of a newspaper. There are plenty of facts at, for example, the department of justice, which only shows stats on reported by law enforcement agencies. It is true that poverty in and of itself creates a great deal of stress. However, I've facilitated plenty of programs for "moms at risk" (of hurting their children) and all of the moms were from suburbia, and well above the poverty line. Please let's not invent and/or perpetuate the stereotypical concepts stated above.

PL,
What? What are you talking about? What stereo concepts? I didn't read where anyone narrowed the abuse field to poor, rich, uptown or downtown; color; or young and old. So, please explain what you mean there, girl? One person said some mothers are abusive. Another person said statistics show more men than women are known
abusers. Unless I'm missing something, I don't get it!

In Post 185840. Jabber, if I understand the words written there, and maybe I miss understand because I have not talked with the author of the words, I see the comment that "usually it's drugs, alcohol, ...." involved in abuse. I am saying emphatically that while drugs, alcohol, poverty, mental illness ARE factors in abuse, there is plenty of evidence that abuse does not necessarily "usually" occur under those conditions. My frame of reference from personal (professional) experience was that none of the above (drugs, alcohol, mental illness, poverty) were NOT indicators of abuse, or potentially abusing children.

Princess we benefit immensely from understanding your exposure due to your professional work experience. You are one of the very few in this forum who directly has provided counselling on a professional basis to a broader base of people compared to any of us.

I strongly agree that poverty, alcoholism, drug abuse or immaturity does not automatically mean physical abuse of children. I'm sure some of us know several examples, where there was dysfunctional behaviour in the parent(s), but the children, in the end, were fine.

Thanks, Princess.

Gee, I wasn't aware that drug or alcohol abuse, or mental illness, or family dysfunction were confined to poor people, or 'other' people, but if you want to take it that way, I'm sorry for being so imprecise. And with that I will bow out of this thread. Sorry.

Ellemm, communication on the internet forums can get confusing. That is the way I /perceived the statements but perhaps not what was intended? I don't know while receiving words printed on a screen, without benefit of seeing the entire person in person. Orchid, thanks for your comments. And Anne, oh my gosh it is scary to think of what those children and perhaps any pets they may have, are going through.

I truly respect your opinion Ellemm but 'do not' aqgree with what you say. Verbal abuse yes, it can be damaging but a spanking when done properly and only when necessary, does not injure a child.

I suppose this is one of those subjects like politics, and religion, everyone has an opinion but no one really KNOWS for sure. Makes for a good thread however. May I inquire as to your thoughts on punishment of those abusers. The serious abusers I mean, men or women? I will admit to wanting to hang them high by their thumbs and let them die and rot 'slowly' in the heat of our desert sun, and thats the truth on my part.

The research I've read recently, indicates more abuse occurs in
the poorer sections of town. Common sense says, folks with less
money cannot pay to occupy their leisure time. And hence wouldn't have as much recreation to think about and contemplate
in their mind. My experience has been that abuse spans all classes and I have to agree with Ellemm, plenty of females
mistreat their children. Personally, I am a product of 4 generations of abuse. My bio family were poor folks. But those who abused me during my childhood were from the higher end of
middle class. That's why I contend all classes participate in
the abusiveness factor!

Another thing to consider is the fact that people with money have the resources to cover up whatever/whenever need be. When I was a CASA (court appointed special advocate) the cases of child abuse were more likely female single parents. But I don't know what the reports are of studies of what gender is most likely to abuse a child. And then what about same sex couples raising children... are males more likely to abuse a child, or is a 2 female parents with child more likely? Jabber, I'm sorry to hear about the perpetuation of abuse from generation to generation, and that you personally are a victim (survivor?) of child abuse.

In UK at present a female nursery worker is under arrest for her part in circulating pictures..she is shown in some whilst abusing babies at her workplace

An infamous duo The Moors Murders were male/female and it unfolded that the children trusted them due to the females presence.

I never heard of the Moors Murders; guess I'll look that up.

I remember reading (about 20-30 years ago?) a book about the "Moors Murders" I can still remember that; really sick.

Alice

Abuse crosses all socio-economic lines...and any lines you can come up with. Abuse is a CHOICE. As far as spanking goes, I am adamantly opposed to it. It doesn't teach the child anything; and I wonder how many parents can wait to spank after NOT being angry with the child. Not likely.

A time out is appropriate. I know the results of being physically abused; it creates anger, resentment and fear.

Alice you said about spanking
It doesn't teach the child anything;

it may teach the child how to spank..and perpetuate the habit.

I worked one school for a short time on secondment..there was a little girl from a home where we knew frequent smacking was the norm..she grew fond of me and her way of expressing herself was to say.."Mrs T.I'm not going to smack you"
These "At risk" pupils soaked up kindness and we all found ourself working toward enriching their lives..pitiful that the homelife was less than kind.since then directives from E.U. in the UK meanS its a crime to smack heaviliy...resonable chastisment is a small tap on the leg.

MA, we have nanny cameras so folks can see what their nannies are up to while watching the kids. Of course, the nanny doesn't know ahead of time. Sad that people have to go to such great lengths, but I might do the same.

This lady was an employee in a private daycare nursery where 0-5 years attend..she woud have collegues.she is also a wife/mother.

Stepfathers are more likely to abuse children than fathers, but fathers do it too.
Perps don't bribe people to get out of jailtime, if they have money, they can pay for good lawyers. A good lawyer can make a big difference in a trial! so if the Perp is a rich man, he's got a much better chance of getting off easy than someone without money. IT's the same story with divorce; a rich man can really give his wife the treatment if she doesn't get a good lawyer and he does.

That's why I think cameras are valuable deterrents. I wish I had
caught on to what was happening to my friend. I wish I had
installed a hidden camera somewhere and a tape recorder, too.
But you know what they say about, should've, would've and could've: They're useless!

Because the sick fu/k had a judge with the IQ of a fruit fly. He gave him time served and that was it, and the little baby he raped was only three, (3) three baby years old. They need to hang that dishonest, unfeeling, corrupt, low life of a judge first, and then the baby raper right alongside him.

It sickens me to think about anything happening to a child because of some sick monster. Makes me sick!!

i starting a new thread in same area, sorry bvut too much time has passed to deleat the whole post so i just deleted contents.