I am so upset and know the advice here is so wonderful so thought I'd post.
I have written before about my drug addicted son. He is currently in jail so thankfully he is safe and off the streets for now.

The problem is my younger two. They have been affected in a huge way with their brothers lifestyle. Now my 15 year old son is going though a huge anger stage and has been for the past two years. Lately it has been getting worse.

He lost his 13 year old friend two years ago, then his grandpa last year and feels the loss of his brother that he never got to know growing up due to his lifestyle. He is also angry that his dad doesn't pay much attention to him as he has another son. His dad has been trying to reach out recently as I have asked him too. He ignored our eldest sons need for attention and look what happened there.

Lately he has been really angry lashing out at every little thing. He has been bullying his sister, kicking her off the computer, pushing her, going in her room without asking etc.
He is mean to her and she thinks he hates her. I think he hates himself.

Over Christmas my daughter went skiing and stayed at a friends ski lodge for a week. She came back on cloud nine. She had some fun and I think this made her living situation even worse.

She has seen her friend every single day since getting back. Her friend sleeps over here and her home life is not good. Parents divorced and her Mom has a new live in boyfriend who she hates.

My problem is this. My daughter gave me a note today. Sometimes we write each other notes when we want to be heard, get something off our chest etc. She says she wants to move with her friend to her Dad's basement. He agreed to fix it up for them. I left him when my youngest two were in diapers as he was an alcoholic and an adulterer. Over the years and many women he finally settled down and has been with the same woman for 7 years. They had another child who is six. Their household has it's problems but he has changed somewhat.

Although he has changed somewhat he does not have very good parenting skills and would let my daughter have much more freedom than I would, much more. No rules basically.

I am feeling like I always get left with the problem kids. The Dad wants the easy ones as he can't handle the boys. He wants my daughter to move in. Why doesn't he have our son move in as he is the one having problems and needs his attention more. When I shared with him that I'm having problems with our son, he said tell him to move out. That's his answer.

My daughter says her room here is too small and messy. You can't even get into her room as there are clothes and junk everywhere. Well that is her fault. I can understand her being upset with her brother but this has caught me off guard. She is 16, 17 in a month.

She says it's not because of me and that I am the best Mom in the world. Says she will visit every day etc. which of course she won't. I was hurt at first but understand her need for freedom, I wanted to be on my own at her age too but that is so unrealistic. Her Dad I feel just wants to be the good guy and is not using his head.

I am at a loss as to what to do with my son. I have no support from his Dad and now my daughter wants out. I'm so upset.

I think it would be a mistake but understand how she feels as I want to run away too some days. My son makes living so hard.

I think I should get a family counsellor involved with all of us, her Dad, my son and daughter and see what they can come up with as I am too close to the situation.

Any ideas would sure be helpful. I'm in panic mode.
thanks,
kate

It's a new day. I spent last night and this morning crying. My daughter is too young to move out. I just don't understand it as we have such a good relationship. I know that she is not doing this to spite me but it still hurts.

I talked to my son last night and he wants to live with his Dad too. He didn't want to tell me as he doesn't want me to live alone. He feels loyalty to me.

I told him it would hurt but if he feels living with his Dad is the only way he can get his attention then he should try it. I think he craves male attention. He may find out that he doesn't get anymore attention but at least he will try.

So, looks like both of them will move in with the dad, his girlfriend and 10 year old daughter, a six year old, my daughter and her friend in the basement apartment and my son in the attic. His Dad says he will fix it up. They only have one bathroom, one kitchen. Personally I don't want it to work out. Childish I know. I feel betrayed, childish I know. I just feel so sad. I have always been here for them and now they are leaving me for their Dad who has never done much for them and is constantly moving away for jobs etc. He never takes into consideration that the kids will miss him. He has moved away six times (8 hours away) in the past four years. He comes back but doesn't worry if the kids are upset when he leaves. He is always in and out of jobs and his relationship with the girlfriend is not good. They fight alot. My daughter told me before (she babysits) that it's a crazy house.

I just broke up with my boyfriend of three years and am still grieving the loss of my Dad and now this. I just want to run away, again, childish.

I began responding to this earlier and had to go pick up my daughter. You've since posted again. Sorry about that.

I certainly understand your not wanting it to work out. You love your children and want them with you, but it sounds like you don't have much say in this.

While I know it's miserably sad, maybe you're being given a time to explore your midlife and consider what the future holds for YOU!. How about joining a group of interest, maybe taking a class, or doing something for yourself.? You've been a care giver for many years. There's certainly more within you than those qualities.

If there's a way for you to do it, (and I'm not sure I could) how about giving them your blessing. I have a feeling they may be back, but perhpas this is a break you could use? I know it's not what you want, but if you put a diferent spin on it and see it as a positive for you, it just might be.

When my nephew was 16, he decided he wanted to live with his dad. My sister was hurt beyond words. And then something wonderful happened. She began to find her own life once again. She began to date, make friends and got married last year.

Her relationship with her son has not only lived on, but has become closer. My nephew has turned out to be a wonderful young man with a clear balance of affection for both his parents. He is one of my favorite people here on earth.

I just wanted to share a success story with you, Katebcca. Maybe it will give you a bit of comfort.

Thanks and I appreciate the response. I am looking at it as a loss which is probably not the best.

In the meantime my friend called me. She lives in a big house and her husband is going into care. He is 18 years older. She can't afford the mortgage by herself and his pension will go to the care facility. She suggested I give the kids a month at their Dads. If they want to stay I could move in with her for a year but the kids would have to understand that. She is never home as she works as a live in caregiver with only one day at the house.

I'd have to put my stuff into storage but the rent would be half of what I pay now. I could get out of debt and will have the time to work on myself. So there is a positive. It will be hard but I know the kids want to try living at their Dads. If they stay after a month they will have to stay for a full year, there will be no turning back. I will make that clear.

At this point I am raw, totally confused and in shock. But change is happening faster than I can keep up with it.

I understand where you are coming from Dotsie and Anno, I just feel really hurt but know that it is not about me.

My kids will always be my kids. The other thing is when my son gets out of jail he won't be able to come home. I am not going to tell him where I'm living either.
Kate

you seem to know whats required and have the right type of attitude to it all, as for you feelings I certinlie understand them.

isen't it a sighn of maturitie that we let the other (whomever) go do what they think is best and may be best for them EVEN WHEN IT HURTS. I certinlie woul't critisise you for your feelings, why would you feel any diffrent. However your doing all the right stuff and that talkes volumes about you kate.

Id be resentfull that as much as theirs trouble with your kids it sounds like dad may be comming into their life when all or a lot of the hard work was done, he kinda gets the benifit of the kids but missed all the hard stuff with your son, the addiction and the other kids. You brought them up and now he gets to share them. It dose't seem faire but we both know that the kids be better knowing their dad and perhaps living with him to develop their relashionship. The kids may just want it becouse its shinie and new, who knows.

the opertunitie is their for you to get out of debt, and maybee more, enjoy taking it and rember your raw feelings of today will calm and be southed with time, programe and some positive attitude.

don't beet yourself up for your feelings. I feel proud of you that you got the guts to say hay this is how i am feeling but theis is what i am doing. You don't find that too much in people.

It seems like you got the answeres to your owen delema and perhapps just want some tenderness from the bommer forums, and why not i am sure you get some!

Well as I suspected, my ex doesn't really want our son to move in.
My daughter will be useful, free babysitting, but my son will cost him more money in food. He had a talk with my son yesterday and told him he should think about it, there isn't much room etc. Meanwhile there is room for my daughter's friend. She and her freind have asked to turn the basement into an apartment.

My son said to his Dad "I really want my Dad and he said he was almost crying. He said his Dad just brushed him off. So he is staying. He told me last night that he wants to know his Dad but that he wants to stay with me.
I told him it is totally up to him, that I will be upset and cry whatever age it is that he leaves, and not to worry about me.

He got into all his frustration with school and that is the route of his anger, frustration. He has severe ADD like my drug addicted son. He has reluctantly agreed to go see a specialist.

Poor guy, both my son's have suffered a great deal as their Dad just doesn't get it. I know he loves them in his own way but he is very selfish and he hurts them over and over again.

So, my daughter starting all of this has brought some positive results.

She is going to let me know her plans today and wants to go for coffee.

I will try to make it about her not me.

Kate

thanks for update kate.

kate, I love the fact that she wants to go get coffee with you. She really loves you and wants to keep communication open. Good for her.

Maybe all of this happened with your son so he would move in the direction of getting some help. In situations like this, we always have to look for the positive.

Sounds like a real rollercoaster, Kate. I know this can't be easy for you, but try to stay positive. Perhaps, as Dotsie and Celtic have said, this may be a positive step for you - you just don't know it yet. Believe me, I've had some black times in my life when I thought I would never emerge into the sunlight again. But those times ended, and I am now in a good place in my life. I sometimes wonder if we aren't supposed to have those really dark times so we can appreciate the light.

Hang in there, Kate, and we're here for you whatever you need.

Sending cyberhugs!

Kate, it's always good to hear from you. I hope you don't mind me asking but how is your other son doing?

Chickadee, no I don't mind you asking. He is safe and sound in jail. Has been there since October. I get 2 letters a week and he expects the same. Things around here have been crazy, I took another job to help make ends meet so have not written as much as I usually do. Actually that is a good thing as he is much more loving and respectful.

As always he says jail was meant to happen and the longer he is in there the longer he is off drugs. He is of sound mind when sober and has really good intentions. The problem is he is weak and easily led. One of these days he is going to get it. He is 24 and I was told that 25 is the magic number for these kind of kids. Apparently boys don't fully mature until age 25, at least that is what I was told by the counsellor.

He may have another 3 months inside, just waiting for a court date.

I will hope for the best but not expect anything. This is his journey.

As for my other two, I am a doting mother and they don't appreciate me. Don't do chores, expect me to pick up after them. I even drive them to school every morning so they get there.

Maybe some time at their Dad's will be a good thing, although I am really sad about it.

When and if they come back I can then set up some ground rules around chores etc. I can't do that now while they still live here. When they were younger I never got around to letting them do chores as I was in such chaos with my older son.

I am really trying to look at the positives. My daughter says she will come over every day and we can have coffee dates, my son is still thinking about what he wants to do.

Kate

Kate, just keep loving them and showing them that, as you allready do. The love that lets go, wins in the end. You'll see. They will be back. Try not to let them see your pain. Be the strong stable mother that they will need. And take this time out as a vacation, and spoil yourself for a change.

Hi Kate

Oh sweetie, I know how hard it is to have your kids come to you and want to move away. I had a hard time when my son said, at 16.5, that he wanted to move in with his dad (who lived in Pennsylvania at the time, we were in Indiana). I don't know how I would handle it with multiple children!

I felt betrayed. Pissed off. Angry. Sad. The works. We had always had a pretty decent relationship or so I thought and this felt like a blow that was unfair as it gets.

I ranted. Raged. Cried. Called my girlfriends and told them what an ungrateful SOB he was. All of it!

The day he left I sat on the floor and cried and cried and cried.

As time went on, I found myself looking at life in new ways. It was actually fun to have him be so far away, knowing (so I thought) that his dad was taking care of things and I got to be the one with the fun stuff for a change. Although his dad is a good guy in many ways, he is aloof and prone to using money to take care of things, not his time or to focus on the daily tasks we women do so much.

At one point, I actually felt guilty because I was enjoying him being gone. OMG, how could I do that? What kind of mom was I? Grin.

The true gift of the situation was when I realized I got to look at what I needed, without worrying about where he was, what he needed, what I should be teaching, etc.

And that process brought me to learning how to prioritize, follow my spiritual path, take courses that supported my growth. And, in the end, I believe I am actually a better mother to my grown son. Because grown he is and he gets to walk the path that was meant for him.

Because of my training and explorations into myself, I have been able to guide him in a very different way than would ever have been possible without him leaving. I stopped judging myself by how much I did for him, was for him, "gave up" for him. Which actually took a huge load off his shoulders!

Another great side effect? The mess in the house was mine! I could no longer groan and moan about what he hadn't picked up, the chores he hadn't done, or what an ungrateful poophead he was. Which also sucked eggs since I had only myself to point to when the dustbunnies started having races around my townhouse and I had to step out of the way so they could have their fun!

Set the rules you need to for the son who is staying with you. Coddle yourself. Give yourself the gift of knowing you, as an individual. Because you see, sweet one, you are one amazing gift to the world. And it is your time to shine.

kate, just checking in on you today. How's it going?

Well, I am adjusting to the fact that my daughter for sure will leave. I do feel that she has really unrealistic expectations. My ex has two kids, his with the girlfriend and her 10 year old. They are not well behaved kids. I know they will drive my daughter crazy and won't listen when told not to go downstairs. My daughter babysits and has told me in the past that she can't stand to do it but doesn't want to disapoint her Dad.

There will be 7 of them in a house with only one bathroom. Here there are three of us with two full bathrooms.

But, she needs to do this so I am going to be supportive.

Not sure about my son at this point.

I am looking at some rent to own options and may purchase a condo or townhouse as my rent is as high as a mortgage anyway.

I will only be able to get a two bedroom, one bathroom place but at least it will be a way for me to own. I have always rented houses since leaving my marriage and over extended myself financially so the kids can have space, a nice place to live etc. They don't realize how good they have it here but they will.

I started Birkam Hot Yoga. It is incredible for stress plus you burn 500-600 calories per 90 minute session. The first class was torture but now I'm ok. I am doing this for me.

thanks for asking Dotsie.
Kate

I really hope Kate, that your daughter will see the light and will come back to spend time with you. It sounds more zooish at her dad's place, with less space to be herself as she grows into adulthood. She will want that fantasy supportive mother who understands her needs,...that she left behind..:D

Will she have space and time to pursue her artistic tendencies? Very important perhaps right now...during major change she is choosing to make in her life ..if she gets more peace in her new alternate space???

Hope you find a good home to settle in.

The crazy thing is we get along really well. We go on coffee dates now, never fight or say an unkind word. I have no idea why she would want to move to her Dad's. She told me it's not because of him, it's because he has the large basement room and she wants to see what it is like to have her own place, sort of. Her Dad is going to put in a stove and fridge.

My daughter is a very sweet girl but, very unmotivated. I actually have three jobs. I am always around though as for the most part I work from home. I have a client that I see two hours when they are at school, and one two days a week from 4:30 to 6:30pm.

My daughter keeps saying she is going to get a job but doesn't. She hands out resumes but doesn't follow through. She has skipped so much school that she has to go to night school or she will fail grade 11. Last year and this year she has become very de-motivated.

Does she feel that I judge her, I don't know. I try to push her gently, but maybe without noticing I do it in a way that she takes a critising. I really don't know. Or maybe she just wants to party as her Dad lets her do what she wants. That way he doesn't have to worry about it. On the weekends I insist she is home by a certain time and she doesn't like it. It's often after midnight. She wants to stay out later and if she is at a friends I stay up late to pick her up which I complain about as I am tired.

We live in a one level house like a condo so when she has friends sleep over they are so noisy that I have to tell her to keep it down. Her room is right beside mine. I started to wear ear plugs which help a bit.

Maybe she just finds me too on her case but really I am not. I have to call her every morning to her out of bed but give up. I don't put her down I just tell her she needs to get to school as time goes by fast and she is so far behind. Try to find out if there is anything wrong etc. Maybe she thinks I expect alot from her and feels pressured I don't know.

I do know that her Dad switches jobs and houses constantly, owes all kinds of people. Still borrows off his Mom at age 50 and has defrauded people. My daughter knows this and not from me. I don't talk about him.

So, I'm stumped but she is moving and there is nothing I can do about it. I am afraid for her though.
Kate

Your daughter has a great deal of potential, Kate. I hope she visits you frequently.

Kate, I think she told you exactly why she's moving. She wants to try this because she THINKS it will be like having her own place. But we know better. Your husband has no idea what he's in for, having two teens live with him. He's got to feed them, love around them, listen to them, drive them, get out of the bathroom for them, etc. I say let her go and give it a try. I don't think it will last long. I'm glad it's during the school year because that should give her more structure than if it was summer with loads of free time.

All you can do is love and encourage her, stand back, and listen when she calls.

Yoga sounds fantastic. I can feel my sholders dropping, jsut thinking about it. I was going to begin yoga last week, but ended up not going. I really can't kneel and I don't want to be the one in the class who sits on a chair for certain stretches.

Kate, she sounds like she is quite sensible and lovely. Let her move, feel some independence and maybe, just maybe, she won't like it so much. Its lonely living alone after all without mama there to turn to every minute. It is the right of passage after all.

I'm growing inpatient. My ex has my son helping him to fix up the basement for the girls. My son keeps saying to me "If I move to Dad's I'll do this" etc.

I don't have any idea if he wants to move or not. He says he wants to try it, but then he says he doesn't want to leave if I will get upset. I am trying not to show that I am upset but it is not easy to hide it. I don't talk about it much, just keep to myself and do my own thing.

Today the ex picked up my son to put him to work on the basement. My son mentioned again, if he moves. I said to him, please make up your mind either way if you are going to try it or not. It is really unfair to keep me in limbo.

Why I feel this way is I rent a very expensive house, out of my budget but it is the cheapest in this city with enough bedrooms etc. If they are going to move I want to start packing up and move to a smaller place that I can afford.

There is also a few other options. I could rent out a room, or both if they both go. Also, I could take in a teen 13 to 16 that is a ward of the court/ministry etc. There is a program that puts kids into good homes for a 3 month to a year period. It helps they get back on their feet as they can't live at home for a variety of reasons. The income is tax free and it's quite substantial. I have always loved kids, was a big sister etc. but wonder if I am too stressed out in my life at this point to do this or not. Maybe it would be a good thing, take my mind off my other kids being with their Dad etc.

I am just trying to come up with some ideas if they do both move. If my son stays I could rent out my daughters room but my son is totally against this. He was really angry when I told him I wanted to rent out the room and especially take in a teenager.

I am all over the map right now and stressing big time. The doctor just put me on blood pressure pills. I tell myself that I don't have to make up my mind right now as my daughter may come back. The entire situation is driving me crazy. I am right before my period too so that may be part of it. I am not the most patient person and need to keep my life under control or I get stressed.

Not knowing if my kids are coming or going is really upsetting for me.

I am going to yoga today to meditate and get away from the situation for now, but it will be back.
Kate

I just typed something else and don't know where it went.

I'll type it again. My kids have lived with me since my eldest was 11 and my younger two were in diapers. I travel with work 3 to 4 times per year and have done for the past 8 years.

Since I began a long distant relationship three years ago I have also gone away on week long trips in the summer and once or twice in the fall. I take my kids away for two weeks every summer.

When they were younger they stayed with their grandma while I was on work trips. After age 12 I asked them where they wanted to stay and Dad was more convenient, close by the school etc. Not once did they stay at their Dads. While I was away they would stay with friends, every time.

This past summer when I was away they both stayed at my house much to my dismay when I found out. My ex said he knew nothing about it. When I asked him where they stayed on other occasions and this occasion he said " I don't have any idea but they didn't stay with me"

I said well didn't you think to check on them and see if they were at my house. He said no.

This is the kind of Dad he is. Buries his head in the sand,let's them do what they want and this is why I have concerns.

I don't get it though. Why would they say they want to live with him now when they never stayed there while I was away. It would have been a perfect opportunity for them to see what living with him would be like.

I'm really stumped.

kate, remember teens don't always know what they want. I think they're just interested in trying something different because they can.

If I were you, I wouldn't do anything differently for at least the first month she/they are gone. From the sounds of it, I'm not so sure it's going to last. What if you move and she'they want to come back? Same with bringing someone to live in her room. Then you'd have to ask them to leave and that's so much change.

I'd sit still for now and give it a little time. MEanwhile, work on things of interest to you.

Thank you Dotsie.
I had a real good talk with myself last night :-)

I went to the book store which is what I do when I am struggling. Right to the self help section. I find this very helpful and I get out and distracted for a little while.

I am my own worse enemy. I am a "over thinker" and this is part of the problem. What should I do if this happens, but then what if that happens. You get the idea.

I bought a wonderful book called "The Language of Letting Go"
It is written by a lady named Melody Beattie" who also wrote a book titled "Codependent No More"

It's a daily meditation book.

I know that part of my problem is that I am impatient, have to know everything now, and also need help learning to let go of things I have no control over.

In the meantime I received a wonderful card from my son today and a sweet long letter. He told me how much he loved me and thanked me for being there for him.

He said his roomate was released five days ago and went to a recovery centre. He lasted five days and is now back in jail. My son said this was a real wake up call for him.

He's hanging on for dear life to me and my other two are trying to break free. Interesting. His doing this is helping me realize that I haven't lost my daughter.

Also, I'm still reading the book you sent to me and it is really helpful.

Last night at yoga I really concentrated on what I was doing. That is why it is so great, you spend 90 minutes just getting in tune with your body. Not thinking about anything because somehow you can't. This has been a life saver for me. The hot yoga helps your body detox. After only three sessions I feel like a new person and my stress level has come down quite a bit. I encourage everyone to try it as it has huge health benefits.

Kate

The good thing Kate is that your son (who is struggling with his addictions, etc.) seems to want to keep in contact with you even though it can cause a dependency (for money, etc.) on you that is unrealistic, given his age, etc.

It could be a situation that he could choose to cut off communication from you. But he has not.

Isn't it miraculous that you are getting strength from your addicted son when you need it? I find that remarkable.

Kate, I know what you mean by over thinking. I do the same, especially in the middle fo the night.

Enough already. I pray and turn it over to God, then take it back.

You are going to be okay because you are working at taking care of yourself, which is a good thing.

Kate, how about an update. Been thinking about you!

Kate,
I know how you feel. I felt betrayed when my son was friendly
with his dad and second wife, especially since dad left us for her. That was a long time ago and the hurt has healed some,
though I still feel betrayed if I dwell on it.

I see Yoga is helping you. And your son writes and reaches out to you. That's great. I'm glad you're feeling better. And pray all will work out!

Kate,

When my youngest son was 11, my husband announced that the marriage was over and he was leaving (I have older kids who were already out of the house). Eventually I learned that he'd been sleeping with a married woman for a while -- she has 3 boys of her own, one of whom is the exact age of our son. My son engaged in all sorts of acting-out behaviors, one of which got him expelled from school (actually suspended for one quarter, but they call it expulsion).

I got him into counseling and the counselor believed that his main problem was that his father had this new life with these new people, and my son felt completely rejected. He may have even thought he drove his father away, because kids think that way. He never said he wanted to move in with his dad, but his dad did take him on fancy vacations etc. I think he remained angry at his dad for years. He's now 23.

I understand what you're saying about the loneliness involved with letting go. My ex wanted me to split the time (with son going here and there) but his motivation seemed to be that he owed less in child support that way. His new wife's kids were with her one week and with their dad the next. My ex actually came up with a schedule where our son would be with me Tues Fri Sat and Dad on Mon Wed and Thurs (anyone notice how messed up that is?)

I just read all about your situation. If it were me, I wouldn't be leaving these decisions entirely up to the children. I think they want to hear from you some absolute limits. I'd tell the ex he needs to take the son, absolutely, above all else. It sounds to me like the son needs attention from his Dad -- is he the same one who your ex is exploiting to fix up the basement for your daughter? What nerve!

I'd probably tell my daughter that as soon as she's 18 she can move wherever she wants but until then she needs to concentrate on finishing school, and not on hanging out with her friend (female friend I assume?)

I would tell him he has to take the son and then if he also wants the daughter to come, and she's willing, then okay, she can come too. Your ex is their parent and they probably need _some_ of his parenting, which is just the way it is when we marry jerks, especially if he has reformed to some degree.

I would bet anything that the entire situation will become intolerable especially for your ex's wife and the 10 year old, and the kids won't be there very long.

Update:
My son (age 15) just wanted to find out if his Dad would let him move in. Now that he said he would, this seems enough for my son. He told me he doesn't want to move in with his Dad now. When I look back I realize what my son was doing.

This past weekend my son had a rugby game. He asked his Dad to come. His Dad has never been to a rugby game and my son has played for four years now. He played soccer from age 5 to 12 and his Dad never came to any of his games. I have never missed a game, not one and love to cheer him on, drive his friends take pictures etc.

When my son was playing I noticed he kept looking at the parking lot to see if his Dad showed up. He was not concentrating on the game as he was hoping for his Dad to come. I felt so bad. So, I called his Dad on the cell phone and said if you don't come to this game I am going to "kick your ***" well not exactly but told him I would never speak to him again. I made him feel real guilty so he showed up after my calling him several times but the game was almost over.

My son was happy he showed up but said he missed all the good parts. I told him your Dad just doesn't get it. I always tell them their Dad loves them but he just doesn't get it. I told my son that I called him and that he would have to answer to me if he didn't come. My son seemed pleased about that. It was one of those moments. It instantly made us closer if that is possible.
My son has been clingy since he told me he was moving in with his Dad. Last night he said he decided not to.

As for my daughter. I can't stop her. I believe that this will be a good learning experience for her. She is going to be 17 in a week and has planned a huge party at her Dad's house. He has no idea. I think she is inviting 60 people. You know how that is going to go. The party will get out of hand and my ex and especially his girlfriend will freak. My daughter knows that she cannot have her party here as I will NOT allow drinking. Her Dad will. She is using his place as an apartment for herself and her girlfriend without the responsibilities of paying rent etc. She is going through something and wants to show off to her friends that she is cool or something like that. This will all backfire on her. Like my ex she thinks moving will change things but her problems, issues will follow her wherever she goes. They won't go away just because she physically moves. But she doesn't get this yet.

She is failing in school, has no outside activities, or a job. I am bothering her by pushing her to excel. I have offered to pay for singing lessons, art lessons. I have found her jobs but she doesn't follow up. She wants things to come to her without putting any effort into it. Natural consequences are going to happen for her and these are the best kind of consequences. They are far more effective than all the nagging I can do. So, I have to step back and let it all happen at this point. She knows I am and will always be here for her, I have told her that. She knows I want better for her and she knows she has talent and is smart also told to her by me. Right now she is on a train that is going fast and she can't get off. I believe that train is going to crash. Not because I think my ex is a jerk, just because she has such unreal expectations.

I don't believe she wants to move to be with her Dad. She wants a change and his place has a good set up for her and her girlfriend to set up house. She basically told me she is not moving because of her Dad. She says her room is too small but it is so messy you can't even open the door - her choice. She says she is always late for school and her Dad lives right beside the school so it will be easier to get there. I drive both kids to school so there goes that excuse. I am always calling her to get up. She says she needs a change so instead of getting a job, making new friends, volunteering etc. she thinks moving to her Dad's is the answer. She does not get it. But one day she will and I will be here.

As for my addicted son. He may get out in February and this is a concern as then he may want to come home for a visit. I learned the hard way and have let him come before he goes to a recovery house and then he never leaves. So this time he is going to have to have a place, have his stuff moved there etc. before I allow a visit. There will also have to be strict rules around him only staying for the weekend. Or if it looks like he is going to pull a fast one and maybe this is best. I will go to where he is living and visit him there. I think that is best as after he gets out of jail, treatment he is often on shaky ground and wants to retreat to Mom's place.

Kate

( I am going to get my daughter a gift certificate at the local art college for her birthday)

I never figured out why men leave one family and go to another.
In fact I don't understand men at all. If they weren't so good
with mechanics and electronics, maybe females wouldn't be that
dependent on them.

That may be Jabber BUT neither of my husbands knew which end of the hammer to pound with and I was totally dependant on them but for other more interesting things! My bad?

Keep us posted Kate. I'm glad your son decided to stay with you.

Your daughter...let us know.

Chatty,
Some of 'em are NOT even good at that; whatschu bein' bad 'bout!

Kate, for some sick reason, I laughed out loud when you mentioned your daughter ahving a party and inviting 60 people. Your husband is clueless.

I'm so glad you had that moment with your son. THa'ts cool when you feel that connection. Keep looking for those opportunites to affirm him. Teens need it even if they don't realize they do. They absolutely need our love.

I think you could be right about your daughter. Just be there for her when the train crashes. It's at times like that when we want to run the other way, but it's when we really need to be there for them - with boundaries that they must adhere to.

Visiting your son is a much better idea than letting him visit you. Great idea. I'll pray you can follow through.

Your right Dotsie, and deep down I know I shouldn't let him come here after getting out of jail. It would just be the same old thing. I need to break the cycle and will visit him.

As for my daughter, don't feel bad about laughing out loud, I did too. And be careful, he's my EX, not husband, a sore spot:-)

I was sitting listening to my daughter and her friends on facebook inviting everyone they know. I had to snicker. She hasn't mentioned it to me at all. I know it will get out of hand, and I know my ex will freak out as that is what he does, not to mention his girlfriend who can't handle much when it comes to my kids.

My son said he would go for a little while but will leave before the fireworks. He knows all to well what is going to happen and doesn't want to be there.

The train wreck will happen. It's kind of nice staying in the background just being there for her in a positive way.

Kate

Yep Kate, just hang back on the caboose so when the crash comes you can bail!!! Too funny. It reminds me of the saying:

WATCH WHAT YOU ASK FOR, YOU JUST MIGHT GET IT!!!

I'm sure your EX thinks he has won some victory over you, but won't he be surprised...

Good luck, there, Kate! A woman almost needs to be a magician to keep everybody happy.

Tell us about the party end result Kate. Hopefully the police does not need to be called in for the crowd..

You know sometimes its best to allow these know it all type kids to have their way. Sooner or later they are going to realize that no one has their back like their own mother does. Some kids just have to have something hit them smack between the eyes before they get it!

I will for sure let you know about the party.
It's all silent or should I say normal as usual on the home front.

My daughter has said nothing about moving out. She is still planning the party.

Her friend was over this morning but has not been around as much. When I was driving them to school my daughter said she has to clean up her room then she said "somewhat" followed by she had to do some sorting.

Her room is a mess, clothes all over the floor.

No mention of packing up or anything. Maybe she is going to wait until after the party. If it's a disaster she may re-think the move. Or maybe she is going to move in that day.

So for now, nothing is being said and I am not saying anything either.

Kate

Mum's the word on the party. And sorry to refer to him as your husband. Ack!

I can totally relate to the room. I could use a snow shovel on my daughter's room. Where does all the stuff come from?

I got an email from the ex yesterday. He says my daughter is moving in this Friday. Told me I have two options, to work out an agreement or to go to court. He wants me to change our child support maintenance order. This from a guy who didn't pay me for 7 years after I left. He was not the least concerned that I had 3 children to support, two in diapers with little money. My daughter hasn't even moved in yet and he wants money.

He has never, ever even had them for weekend let alone a week in the summer which normal people do. He has never contributed to back to school supplies and up until last Christmas they didn't even get a Christmas present from him.

I'm shocked actually but I guess I shouldn't be.

I told him that I have no intentions of changing the order at this point. I gave my daughter 30 days and after that I'll think about it. I called Family Maintenance ( a gov't body here that monitors child support) They told me it doesn't matter if my daughter moves with him, he stil has to pay me as he is in arrears for $10,000 dollars.

What a jerk!

Kate

OMG, do you think he's doing it for the money? Sick, and sorry, but that's what I thought as I was reading. Does he think you are going to apy him because she's living there now? Is that what you mean?

Yup, that's what it sounds like to me too Dotsie. Some people just don't get it, and it's sad that the daughter is caught in the middle. Here her dad wants her to move in - -and maybe she thinks it's because he wants a relationship, when maybe all he wants is the extra money each month. Just imagine how she'll feel when she finds out she's a pawn in his money game. Geeze...

And he also wants free babysitting. She babysits now two days a week for $20.00 per night. He told her if she moves in she won't be paid as she isn't paying rent. So, she will have to babysit for nothing and I'm sure it will be a lot more than two nights per week, plus he wants child support from me.

I told him I am not going to do anything. He can go to court at his expense if he wants. He actually gave me two options: #1 agree to his terms or, #2, he will take me to court.

Good luck to him as he owes me and I don't have to pay him a cent until he pays up. By that time I'm sure my daughter will be back home. She's 18 in a year anyway so by the time he pays me back she may even have her own place if she decides not to move with me.

To be honest I have no idea how she will manage. Every time she goes there she tells me it's the crazy house. My ex is very intense, and has a mean temper. My younger two have not seen it that much as they never stay with him. He spanks his step daughter which makes me cringe. My daughter tells him to stop it.

She has no idea what she is going to have to deal with but I will be here waiting in the wings :-)
Kate

I'll be carrying her in my prayers. All things happen for a reason. I have a feeling her eyes are going to be opened a bit more regarding her dad. The babysitting will drive her crazy, especially when she isn't getting paid.

Hang in there. I think you are very wise and pretty much know how things will unfold. Good for you for letting her make this move.

One way for the girls eyes to open all the way is to jump into the deep water head first, and when she sees the sharks (daddy)circling she will know her mistake and get her butt out of there and back to the safety of (momma) the shore.

I would say just relax, these things have a way of taking care of themselves.

Well the party is tomorrow. I found out through a source that my ex just bought a restaurant and he is having the girls work there.

I just got served with papers the other day saying that the ex is requesting child support from the family maintenance office. They told me he can take me to court.

So, the writing is on the wall, daughter moves in, she can work for her rent at the restaurant and also he won't have to pay me anymore. I wouldn't put it past him to have talked her into this.

The problem is he has had businesses before and has gone bankrupt twice already. I have no idea how he is doing this. He is a poor money manager and a crook as he works under the table.

The saga continues..............

More on the party tomorrow.
Kate

I heard the party was kind of a bomb. Not that many people showed up. But there was lots of drinking, the ex allowed this, I wouldn't.

Some of the girls were throwing up. The ex's girlfriend kicked them all out at midnight and they went downtown to a billiard place. Yes they are 17 years old. Kicked them out at midnight, are you kidding me. She should not have been allowed to leave the house intoxicated or otherwise. But, that is my ex. What a great Dad, that is what he calls himself.

I have not heard from her. It's her birthday on the 10th. Usually I take her out to for dinner. I am still really hurt and don't want to see her as I don't want her to feel bad about me. This is going to take some time. I understand it is not about me, but I feel what I feel and can't hide it.

Not sure what to do at this point. I will get her a gift but I don't think I can do dinner this year. I won't be able to hide my hurt and don't want her to feel guilty.

I spoke with a friend of hers and she said my daughter is really dumb for moving in with her Dad. She can't stand the girl my daughter moved in the basement with. Not many can. She is a real party animal. Drinks, smokes, does drugs.

This is a nightmare for me after what I have gone through (am still going through) with my addict son.

I went to my youngest son's rugby game today. It was such a great game. He played hard. He left the party early as they were drinking and he is an athletic kid. He is also only 15 so is still not acting out. It was nice to do something positive with him.

Kate

Oh boy Kate, I'll tell you,...it's tough to be a parent. I see alot of similarities here with my brother and his kids. His oldest son was always rebellious and got in a lot of trouble. My brother sent his boys to excellent schools, travelled to Europe many times, financed music lessons, scuba diving, even flying. The end result is more than disappointing. One of them has been caught dealing drugs ( several times), and has no goal whatsoever. He will probably quit college this year. And his other son doesn't even want to finish high school. To top it off, both are fresh, arrogant and full of animosity towards their father. My brother suffers terribly because of this. He has given his all; not only his love, but he has invested every free moment for his children.

Yesterday Hubby and I went to our granddaughter's b-party (3 years old). My DIL held it at McDonald's. They invited 12 little kindergarden friends. It was interesting how different these little people were from one another. So many of them were serious little children. Not even I could make them smile. But there was one little boy, that constantly searched eye contact with me, and smiled warmly every time I looked at him. And then there was a bully, who tried to boss the others around. The parents were all there too. It was an international group, and all seemed loving caring parents who were laughing and having lively conversations with one another. But their children were as different as an assortment of chocolates in a box.

So dear Kate, all you can do is your best. Then lay your hands in your lap and breathe deeply through, and think;

….my life isn't just about my children. My life is about me: my own dreams and hopes, and my own inner peace within life itself.

Some things are just beyond our control. I believe most character traits that our children have are in their genes. If you just love and guide them, then you have fulfilled your mother obligations. What they accept and put to use is solely up to them.

My daughter has been at her Dad's since February 8th. She says she wants to stick to the 30 day agreement. When 30 days are up she will decide whether to stay or move back with me.

Her Dad does not want to honor our agreement. He just served me with court papers and wants $$$.

My daughter says he is selfish and she knows he is all about the money so I don't get why she stays there.

I really think this is about her friend. She likes living with her but also she is being pressured because her friend can't move back home. Well she can but she hates her Mom's new live in boyfriend. Her Dad moved out one day and the next day the new guy moved in. They do drugs, drink etc. Her Dad is an alcoholic so she can't live with him. She needs to stay with my daughter at her Dad's.

My daughter emails me and tells me she misses me. I email her too. She is coming over tomorrow to hang out.

I am kind of stuck as to what to do but am just going to be supportive and will let her figure it out. If she wants to talk about it I will but I don't want to be the one that brings it up.

She said she will let me know in 30 days so I will stick to that.

As for the court papers I have 30 days to respond from the 14th.

This is complicated. When your partner served you court papers and wants $$, what is he asking for??

Hopefully your daughter realizes that at her age, there are personal responsibiities..either she goes back to school full time and work hard at her marks ..or get a job. No one outside her family, can look after her friend either. How else will her friend get money unless she works also?

Obviously your daughter does still view you as some sort of sounding board which is good to see.

Keep us posted Kate. It must hard to hold all this together yourself at times.

Kate if all that stands in the way of your daughter moving back home is being near her girlfriend, what if you allowed the girlfriend to move in with you as well? You could set some strict ground rules and if she can't pay room and board then she can do housework etc. with your daughters help. That could solve many poroblems. Just a thought. Could also be fun having the girls around, and trip up your greedy husband.

I do not think that Kate's daughter's friend living under Kate's roof would solve much in overall family dynamics. It appears she has alot to cope with her younger son and also with her older son in the back of her mind.

Hard to know the reliability of teenager friend as a boarder. Too much to expect when friend has a load of personal problems related to her own problematic split parents. The young friend needs a counsellor...

Your daughter is caught in a peer pressure trap with a gal who may possibly be using her for the living situation. How long have they been friends?

Kate, I believe your daughter wants and needs your attention. She probably moved because she thought life would be easier at Dad's without some of your restrictions (which are needed). I have a feeling she'll be back home before too long. Until, revel in the fun times your son is providing you with his games and conversations! Try to focus on the positive kid right now, them be the sounding board when your daughter needs you.

Your right Dotsie,
She is caught up in the peer pressure trap. Teenagers are all about their friends. I remember it well and my parents were far in the background when it came to importance at that age.

She has made a commitment to her friend and will probably stick it out unless the friend comes up with some new plans. Who knows, her Mom's boyfriend may move out. Things are always changing.

My daughter is still in the honeymoon stage. I don't think it has much to do with the ex, her Dad. He is just accommodating her so he doesn't have to pay me and she knows it. And I guess she doesn't mind being accommodated.

They have a little apartment type set up with a kitchen and living area and they are trying out what it would be like to live on their own. Her Dad is not home much and the step Mom is busy with the other kids so they are on their own basically.

At this point I am not sure if it will last or not. My son loves it as he now gets all of the attention. He is strugging at school so her not being around is giving me some needed time to focus on his homework. For now it seems to be working.

I do miss seeing my daughter every day and it feels weird. But she emails me daily and she was just over last night. She is not far away.

So, I will just wait it out as there is not much else I can do.

You may want to make sure the courts know that ex of yours is BEHIND in support payments before they happily award him support. Don't just assume they'll know that or be fair...

What goes around!

Funny story, well if you can see the humor in things. My daughter tells me that her Dad is really annoying. It sounds like she may come back. But that is not the funny part.

Today I went to court to respond to the papers the ex sent me requesting to cancel the child support order. I filled out the reply form and had it stamped. The guy said wait a minute I need to check something. He looked on the computer and said my ex's request would be automatically cancelled. For some reason there is a new law and the Divorce and Separation act says he can't request to cancel the child support order. The papers he served me with are not legal or binding and his case will be thown out before it even gets to the judge.

I actually had a little chuckle, so did the guy. He can apply to do this but not without jumping through some major hoops, getting a lawyer at his cost and it will be a really big hassle for him.

Thought I'd share my good story for the day. It doesn't pay to be a jerk.

Kate

I'm really glad the court employee at the court registry office, checked for you Kate. Keep us posted!

WhaHoo, finally something turns out the way it should. I am so happy for you Kate.

I came in to remind you of our friend Danita, both her kids left her home after the divorce as well, the son living with his father. But the son is back home now and seems from what danita posted to be doing great. Sometimes the bird must leave the nest to realize he/she is nothing more than cat food without their best friend and mother to watch over him/her...

Thanks Chatty, It's not over yet but he will find out it won't be as easy as he thought.
My daughter is at a very self indulgent stage in her life. It's all about friends. She can get away with more at her Dad's. I also expect more from her so I think she likes to be where nothing is expected of her and she can do what she wants. She may move back but I don't think it will be too soon.

She is living with her Dad, his girlfriend and two young very out of control step siblings. Her Dad is so busy with them that he has no time to see what she is up too. This has to be the case as she told me he is really annoying, they have no heat (ran out of oil) there is not much food and the only bathroom in the house is broken. So there must be a reason she is staying and I believe it is because she can basically do what she wants.

I'm concerned for her but I have to let her learn some lessons.
It has actually been really good for my youngest son and I. I have spent more time with him and he is much happier with his sister not living with us. He likes the one on one attention he gets and likes feeling like the man of the house. He is very loyal to me. I wanted him to try it at his Dad's house for his sake but he said he doesn't want to and wants to stay with me. We have actually been having some really nice evenings together.

So, good things sometimes come out of things that you think are terrible. I miss my daughter but it's ok that she is with her Dad for the time being. I just hope she doesn't make any lousy decisions but that will be up to her. She has been raised with a lot of guidance and I just have to trust that she will do the right thing.

Kate

Is she going to school ..to your knowledge?

Enjoy your time with your son.

Did you think that if you'd gotten another employee, you may not have gotten the good news? Glad he followed through. PHew!

I bet your son is loving life alone with you. As the middle child, this is a first and a rare opportunity as a middle. I'm glad you're able to see the good in this by enjoying tie with him.

The living conditions don't sound al that great for your daughter, but you're right, all she cares about at this stage are her friends. Is her friend still there?

Actually my son is the youngest child and can never get enough attention. He thrives on it.

My daughter and her friend were over tonight to watch a movie. They are always together.

Her friend is loud, overbearing, bossy, opinionated and I believe is somewhat controlling over my daughter. She also swears in my house. Tonight she barged in and took over the place and my son said "watch your language in my house" She dresses very provocative and I can't stand the fact that my daughter is living with her. But.....she needs to learn a lesson I guess. I think my ex let's her sleep over at her boyfriends. He mentioned something the other night that if she stays out he needs her home early in the morning to babysit. I said "if she stays out where? "she better not stay at the guys house". He said oh no I mean if she sleeps over at a friends. I believe he lets her do whatever she wants. I find this so scary.

I hope she comes to her senses soon. None of her friends like the girl she shares her room with in the basement and it's not that I don't like her, I just think she is a bad influence. She needs help herself but I don't want her affecting my daughter, but I guess it's too late for that. My son can't stand her friend either as she is quite disrespectful to him and talks to him like he is a little kid.

I remember my mother disapproved of all of my friends. She was very judgmental and still is. I only disapprove of one of my daughter's friends but I know if I say anything she will dig her heels in.

It's kind of hard to watch.

Kate

This will sound like a clueless question, but has your daughter heard directly from you recently, that you would love to have her back (just her, not her friend)?

would agree that critiquing of her friend (or any of her friends) won't get you anywhere.

In the end, she needs in greater priority, a friendly parent who does help her understand her limits. Being just her friend is 2nd priority.

Anyway, it must be hard at this time for you. When is the time deadline for her to decide to stay or come back?

Urg, this friend sounds like such a bad influence. Has your daughter maintained other friendships while hanging out with this gal? Does this gal have other friends? Just wondering why she's latched onto your daughter...

Orchid, my daughter knows I would prefer she live with me. I send her emails telling her I miss her and she comes over a fair bit. It's a fine line as I don't want to put pressure on her. I want it to be her decision, not have both parents pressuring her. She told me she knows with her Dad it's all about the money. She knows this yet continues to live with him. Why, because she can basically do what she wants, and it is worth it for the ex to let her friend stay with her so he doesn't have to pay me child support.

Dotsie, I think my daughter maintains some contact with her other friends but not alot. This friend I believe has latched on to her and it's not good. The other night I got them a movie which is really good for girls, self-esteem (Mona Lisa's Smile)
There are great messages in this movie. Not even 10 minutes in the friend says, this is so boring, let's watch one of my movies. So she changes it to some horrible kind of movie with no substance. I know if I watched it with my daughter she would have enjoyed it, but she sided with her friend.

I believe she has latched onto my daughter partly because they like each other, but more because she can control my daughter as her life is out of control. Also she can have no rules either by living at my ex's house. He uses them for free babysitters and lets them come and go as they please.

Kate

Do you know this friends parents? Ever spoken with them? Whats the story there?

Yes I do. The Dad is an alcoholic and moved out a year ago. They were always yelling at each other and you could here them all over the street. I wouldn't allow my daughter to go to her house. The first time I went over to get my daughter after a visit I knocked on the door and all their dogs started barking. I heard the Dad in front of kids yell "get the F***N door" to the Mom or one of the kids. From that moment on I told my daughter that her friend needs to come to our house. The Dad was scary, not unlike my ex but more of a red neck. My ex was probably just as bad but he only showed this side of himself in front of me and the kids. Other people were shocked when I told them after I left that he had a really bad temper. They thought he was such a nice guy, go figure. He hid his angry side in public.

The Mom does daycare but I am not sure why people bring there kids over. She is basically a nice person herself but looks scary. long black hair, drinks beer on the front porch with her live in boyfriend. He moved in one day after her husband left. I don't like to judge people if I don't know them and I don't know him. But, he smokes as does she, as does my daughter's friend. He has long straggling hair and looks likes a street person. They are always outside on the front porch playing loud rock music and drinking beer.

Her Mom allowed her daughter to move to my ex's that is about
all I know. I guess she couldn't stop her. She hates the new boyfriend and probably all the chaos. But, there is lots of chaos at my ex's house, yelling etc. I guess they have that in common.

Kate

I just re-read my post and I don't like to judge people period but sometimes it takes real work not to :-)

Kate

The peacefull quiet shore will always win. Being just there for your daughter, in the background, and rebuilding your own life is the best thing you can do.

Maybe now you can take that real-estate course you once mentioned? Whatever, try to distract yourself constructively from your daughter. She will notice that too, and respect you for that.

It's hard Kate, I know. But I also know you will win your daughter in the end.

Kate, patience my dear. Just wait it out and enjoy your son while he's there with you alone. And don't feel guilty for enjoying his company and having fun.

Maybe this girlfriend will find a boyfriend, and then she'll leave your daughter alone. Sounds ridiculous, but these relationships are what it's all about when the kids are young.

Thanks Edelweiss and Dotsie, I am taking a course at the moment, going to hot yoga, working lots and keeping busy. Her Dad was terrible to me to and also to my eldest son but that was years ago. His home life is very chaotic because that is the way he is, but I think he has mellowed somewhat over the years.

He is very selfish for sure and has never wanted to pay me a cent, but. I believe he is nice to my daughter at least. If he wasn't she would be home in a flash.

I don't want to put pressure on her so am doing what you suggest, staying in the back ground and enjoying more time with my son.

Yes hopefully the other girl moves on or moves home but with friends you have to be careful and wait it out. I know from experience if your kids don't think you like a certain friend, they will hang out with them even more.

Kate

Kate, I saw your answer more as just the facts, not in anyway judgemantal. Hey, to be honest we have to call them like we see them, right?

I got a call from my daughters school today. Since being at her Dad's (three weeks) she has been late 10 times and missed 26 classes (subjects)

While that is terrible news for me to hear, it's interesting as she said she moved to her Dad's so she would be closer to school and not be late (he lives one street away)

Her Dad told me a while back that I should make her go to school and that if she were living with him he would just make her go.

He doesn't seem to be doing a very good job now is he.

Maybe this is a good thing. He now knows that it is not so easy to "just make" your kids go to school.

And of course I called him and told him about her lates and absences.

Kate

They say "paybacks are a b-witch." Their right!!!

I'm so sorry to hear this. What do you think she's doing with all her time when she isn't in shcool. I'd love to know if her freind has also missed.

I'll keep praying for her to come to her senses. Keep showing her love. That's all you can do from a distance.

Just wondering what you think.
Well I heard through the student grapevine that my daughter has told people that she wants to move back. Then today, she calls and says her Dad wants to pick up her dresser. She took her clothes and the new bed I just bought her but left the dresser and some boxes of books, collectibles etc.

I think her Dad is now putting on the pressure as it is the 8th tomorrow.

My thoughts are that I want to talk to her about this. I feel that even if she does stay at her Dad's that she should spend some time at my home. Many divorced parents share custody, in my current order I am the primary care giver but the ex has shared custody with me. Up until a month ago he never had the kids for any length of time, never had them weekends, or in the summer. I have always had them. I still want to be in her life but while she is at her Dad's I rarely see her.

Another question. My ex has always worked under the table. He only claims his main job on his taxes. He is supposed to give me all of his T4's but hides other income.

I have seen his ad on Craiglist where he offers renovation service, house painting etc. I know he has worked for some companies that he has not claimed which results in my getting less child support than I am supposed to.

I have been accused as being to nice for my own good many times.

I'm wondering if I should give what info I have on him to the maintenance program or is that just being bitter on my part because he is putting pressure on my daughter to stay with him. He is just such a cheapskate.

Normally when one parent has one child and the other parent has the other child then child support is not an issue. They both have on child each so no one pays. I would be ok with this under normal circumstances but, my ex hides income, has ripped me off for years and owes me $8,000.00 in arrears. The judge cut the arrears in half last time we were in court as he cried poor. It was 16,000.00 in arrears because he never paid me a cent the first 5 years were apart. I left him with three kids, he left me with no car, no money to live on and loads of unpaid bills that were in my name. My kids had to do without even the essentials. I couldn't afford my rent, had my hydro cut off, those first few years were very difficult.

I'm trying not to be bitter here so am looking for advice. I have not spoken of this to the kids and won't, I'm just looking for some outside opinions as it's hard to think straight when your emotions are involved.

thanking you in advance,
Kate

My thoughts are that I want to talk to her about this. I feel that even if she does stay at her Dad's that she should spend some time at my home. Many divorced parents share custody, in my current order I am the primary care giver but the ex has shared custody with me. Up until a month ago he never had the kids for any length of time, never had them weekends, or in the summer. I have always had them. I still want to be in her life but while she is at her Dad's I rarely see her

I am responding to this point alone, on daughter's development and well-being plus the daughter-mother relationship:

You need to have a friendly dialogue with daughter. It is not clear at this time and probably not to your daughter(?) what she wants in terms of her primary residence --yours or your ex's house. Or if it should be 50% time at your place.

I suspect your daughter's gut feeling that she knows in her heart, to live with you means she must follow-through to become accountable for what she does/does not do (school, etc.) but she gets to live in a more sane environment with her mom who is also a very important, positive adult female mentor to her development. The latter alone is a powerful reason why I hope your daughter will live with you at least part-time. She needs to find herself...in a sane, supportive environment.

Will your ex provide her all the food and money for her to buy her own clothing, necessities if she does not work?

This is tough, because in dialogue with your daughter, you do not want to be perceived as someone in some sort of tussle with ex, where daughter feels like a pawn in a power struggle between 2 parents.

I took my daughter out for lunch today as today is the day for her to decide as it has been one month. She is moving back home.
She went on and on about her Dad, how annoying he is and how selfish.

She also knows he is going to be really mad at her and she says with him it's all about the money.

So, in a way this was a good thing and a great learning experience. Her friend wants to move back home too as she feels unwelcome. My daughters Dad is demanding more money from the friends mother.

Thought I'd share. I am so happy as I miss her and she will move out sooner than later so I want her home with me until then.
Kate

That's good news Kate. I hope this has been an eye-opening experience for her and that she will appreciate you more when she moves back. Best of luck with it all!

I voluntarily changed the subject line abit..because Kate this is a wonderful change for you and your daughter to be together again under 1 roof.

So happy for you!!

I hate to say I told you so but reading back through the posts, I did!!! Doing the happy dance for you both.

Well things have changed quit a bit. My daughter is now going to stay at her Dad's.

He lets her stay at her boyfriends house over night. She just turned 17 three months ago. He says she is almost an adult, what can you do, she's going to do it anyway etc. etc. I call it a cop out. He doesn't want her to leave so is doing whatever to keep her there. He has no rules and doesn't want her to be mad at him so he gives in. She says he understands and I don't.

She was here Easter weekend and I had a long talk with her. I told her that when she is at my house that there is no way she can stay overnight at her boyfriends. I told her it is disrespectful for her and me. I had just found out she was doing this. Her Dad and she were keeping it from me. She told me all her friends do it and what's the problem. I tried to explain but she went off crying. I had told her that as long as she continues with this she cannot live here. So she stubbornly said then she will stay at her Dad's. There is no reasoning with her.

Her Dad doesn't even know this guy. I have never met him either. Her friends don't like him and tell me he has a drinking problem. All I know is that he is 19 and works in construction. He lives in a room above a store with some other guys.

I am so worried for her but she tells me she is smart, and knows what she is doing.

It is really hard to stay firm but I have to. I am not going to change my standards for her, just because everyone else is doing it. It's a shame but what can I do?

Kate

I'm sorry to hear about this latest development, Kate. It must be truly difficult to see your daughter allow herself to get caught into another complicated situation that will not help her, given her age.

And her need to finish /graduate from high school. It chills me when some (lost) young people in North America do not understand the value of their basic education and how much it can affect their future.

It is deeply troubling that her father hasn't even met the guy at all.

Kate, sounds like Canada is getting the same low morals as here in Europe. Teenagers stay overnight at their boyfriend’s or girlfriend’s house all the time. I was shocked, but like everything else…even that you can get used to. Our son’s did overnights when they were 18 and their girlfriend’s were just 16.

Please don’t misunderstand me, I don’t condone it. But the arguments the parents have here is, they rather know where their child is then having them take off somewhere secretly.

When I think back, no way would I have wanted to sleep with a boyfriend under my parent’s roof. In this case, your daughter is visiting her boyfriend’s apartment. Geez..they have coed dorms now. And those kids are just a year older.

I say don’t dwell on that issue to much. Make sure your daughter takes birth control pills, and just concentrate on her schooling. That is what really is important.

My biggest concern is her safety. She just turned 17 and goes on the bus alone at night back from the boyfriends house. He is not even really a boyfriend. She tells me he is just friend, maybe with benefits who knows.

I find her self-esteem is so low and it's obvious as she doesn't go anywhere with this guy. He doesn't take her out or come to her place. She just goes over to his place. He is 19 and has room-mates. My biggest fear is if some weird people come over and my daughter gets into a situation she can't handle.

As for school she skips so much that she probably won't pass the year. Last year she made the honour role. I showed her the certificate the other day. She just shrugged her shoulders.

It's very frustrating and her Dad just buries his head in the sand.

For now I am doing nothing and see where it leads. She really doesn't want to stay at her Dad's and when the boyfriend gets boring she may change her mind and move back with me. They think they know it all at this age.

Kate

If she should still hang out with this guy for a long time, for your own awareness if your daughter is agreeable, to encourage her to bring him to say hi or have a coffee/picnic/snack in park somewhere for all 3 of you. Probably better if your younger son wasn't around at such meeting so you don't have to worry much.

When my partner had problems with his son, who dropped out of high school temporarily within the last 6 months before he was about to finish Gr. 12, he and his ex sent out 1 common message individually to him: If you won't go to school, get a job. Oh yea, he became a father at age 21 with a girlfriend, who is now an ex. To make a long story short, he shares joint custody of a little son, with ex-girlfriend. He is happily married to different highly motivated, organized young woman and he is a chef who has been reviewed by his local city. He has been building his skills through some college courses, reading cookbooks and experimenting. Yes, whenever he sees his father (my partner), we are treated to gourmet real cheffy meals.

Which he did get a job for 1.5 yrs., then return to school to finish, etc. The only saving grace that probably prevented him from falling further into an abyss, is he did /still does have a great set of good friends long-term that didn't do much or any drugs, limited drinking, etc.


It is a more complex journey to come back to true core self. Keep your belief in your daughter and you are telling her that. Has she ever been given a problem to solve that will capitalize on her artistic skill? I am asked as the family member to do hand calligraphy off-the-cuff, for certain family celebrations.

Kate, I don't blame you for being worried. It's a wacko world
out there. The U.S. has the same stuff goin' on as Canada and Europe. Teens stay over at their significant other's house.
And parents don't seem to think there's one thing wrong with that. Today's norm would've freaked my folks out. They say kids'
learn by example. But our generation was never allowed to live
like they're living today. So you've gotta wonder where they
got their standards?

Kate, I know your mother's heart is breaking over the recent events of your daughter. While I know you're ticked with her, the best thing to do is love her. I'm sure she knows you disapprove of her lifestyle so maybe it's best to stay away from the topic, reminisce with her about when she was little, and try to do some dreaming with her. I don't know if it will help, but it's worth a try. Maybe you cold send her a card a week with some type of encouraging message. Try to build her up. That's what she needs right now.

What's happening with the girlfriend who was also living there?

Amen to Dotsie's advice. I like her idea! It's always better
to be positive than negative, any day.

I know it'd warm my heart to get loving, caring cards from my
mom. If I had a mom.

I continue to send my daughter emails and she doesn't respond. She only comes over now to use the computer and eat my food. Her Dad never has any.

When I try to talk to her about anything she answers with yes of no answers. She never looks at me.

Tonight when I came home she was on the computer. She called her Dad to pick her up as she had a project to do. He said no you can walk. I asked her if he was picking her up and she said no, he never does. I would drive her all over the place and her friends. Probably too much. She was getting ready to leave so I asked her if she wanted to go for a coffee and I would drive her to her Dads. Figured that may be a way to connect. She had her IPOD on the entire ride and said nothing.

When we got to the coffee place she told me that her school is going on a trip next year to Cuba and she needs $150 before the end of the week or she can't go. I asked her if she had talked to her Dad about it and she said he won't pay, of course, no surprise there. She said they need to book everything and it's a good deal, only $1,500. Well she seemed to be able to talk to me about that but nothing else, she wants something. I think she is in a very selfish place, I really do. Also her Dad has spoiled her by letting her do whatever she wants.

So, I just changed the subject. I asked her if she is going to move back. I just got served with a notice to move in two months. She said last week she wanted to. Tonight she said she doesn't know. I said well I need to know how many bedrooms I need to be looking for. Can you give me an idea. She said she doesn't know and she will never know. I said ok, well then I will just have to rent what I can afford and if there is not enough room for you than what can I do. She just nodded and said she had to go. She is so cool with me, I just don't get it.

She wants to move out on her own but has no job and no idea what it would be like.

I tried to talk to her in the car. I said it seems like you don't want to talk to me. I told her is was hard to know what's going on with her if she doesn't tell me. It was so frustrating. I just said to her, "I give up" I am trying so hard here and you are not communicating with me at all. I got really upset and started to cry but did not let on, tried to hide it. I am not sure if she noticed or not. She just got out of the car at her Dad's and walked away.

I'm so hurt, I have done nothing but love my daughter. I've always been there for her and we had what appeared to be a great relationship until she moved in with her Dad. She is turning her back on me or so it seems. I can't take the pain anymore. I am not going to ask her again. I am not going to pay for her trip. Really I just don't know what to do. I'm trying not to be childish here but this hurts so bad.

I just have to let her go and figure it out. She can come to me from now on. Really sending her little notes and cards does nothing. Tonight when she was here I gave her a big hug and she acted all aloof.

I know, it's tough being a teenager but this is too much. My only thought is she is trying to get back at me because I told her she can't live with me if she stays out all night and over at her boyfriends house. I told her I am willing to make compromises over some things but until she is older or has a place of her own she cannot do overnights at this guys place.

Maybe she is getting back at me, I just don't know but she is being so mean to me and I don't deserve it at all.

Kate

Another thing, the friend moved back to her Mom's. She couldn't take my ex or his anger outbursts. My daughter tells me her Dad yells at her and has anger management issues.

He treats her like crap and I'm the bad guy here. He gives her no money, zero drives, rarely has food in his house. Late at night she has to walk home by herself. This is so hard to take as it's dangerous out there and she is just a tiny thing, all of 5" 1 but her Dad doesn't seem worried at all. He just goes to bed, doesn't pick her up. She is on her own.

I just don't get it.
Kate

Kate,

I am so sorry for what you are going through. I went through a simular situation with my son. It was just heartbreaking.

I would encourage you not to give up on her. Just keep communicating your love for her. You NEVER know what is going to happen. My son ended up moving home this year -- and I would have told you "not in a million years" would he move home.

She sounds like she is in a lot of pain. I know your heart must break for her! Keep loving her and communicating your support for her. You are her one healthy parent (and thats all it takes)

Comforting hugs,

danita

Kate, this isn't about what your ex does or doesn't do for her right now. It's not about what you do for her either. It's about her living with him because he has no boundaries. It's not you, it's your boundaries, which are totally right, by the way. Try not to take it personally; easier said than lived.

Here's a tactic, we haven't approached. What if you back off, but when she calls you or stops by, be there for her with love? Do you call her much? I know you email. Maybe if you back off for a bit, she'll come running.

What do you ladies think?

When my daughter and I butt heads, I have to back off because if I don't, it escalates. She deifintely needs her space to think things through. Maybe your daughter is the same...

I know you've given her space by letting her move out, but try giving her space without communication for a bit.

Maybe?

And do something nice for yourself today. You deserve it. Get lost in a good book with a bag of chocolate in your other hand.

Yes I am going to back off. I think this is a real power trip for her. Knowing I want her to move back. It's a control thing.

"You won't let me move home and let me do what I want, so I will make you squirm"

I don't think she is doing this on purpose but she it doing it all the same. She is not happy. Life is getting her down, she just wants to be able to be free to do what she wants. Have money to move out on her own etc. What teenager doesn't feel like this at times. I sure did. I wanted to move out from age 15 but my mother was a very critical controlling person. My daughter has had it easy in that department.

She says she wants to be able to do what she wants, she wants her freedom. But, no responsibility of course. She still wants me to pay for everything.

I have one issue I would like to check in with you ladies on. My daughter moved out with her bed and most of her clothes. She left behind large bags and boxes of junk, clothes, books etc. I am moving. I have asked her a few times to get her stuff but she says she is moving back so why bother. That was a while back. I need to get this stuff out. I am not going to move it for her as it's mostly junk but I can't throw it out.

Do you think it would be ok to drop it off at her Dad's at this point? Would this be childish. Maybe the timing is not good. Just thinking if she can't even tell me if she is moving back or not than I am going to assume she is not. For now anyway.

I have asked her nicely and explained that I need to know. If I move and there is not enough room for her later she will be sorry. She will not give me an answer. It makes a difference in the rent etc. If she did move with us it will be more expensive as I will need a larger place. If she isn't going to move with us then I will get a smaller less expensive place. I don't want to get a large place and have an empty room. She doesn't seem to care at all about this. Just wondering.

I heard she broke up with her boyfriend. All her friends are glad. Maybe she is mad at me because I told her he didn't respect her by allowing her to take the bus home after midnight by herself. I told her he should come to her house and he should take the bus home. Why should she do this, it dangerous for a young girl to be out at night on her own. She didn't like it when I said it but her friends were also telling her to ditch him. She may be upset about that too. Who knows, maybe she even thought about moving in with him and he would take care of her. NOT! You know how girls can have these crazy romantic ideas when they are young.

Anyway, should I drop her stuff off?

Kate

I decided I would drop her stuff off but not now. This would look too spiteful and I don't want that.
I will take her stuff to her Dads closer to my move date.

I was thinking back to when I was her age. My parents went to Europe and I went with a friend to a place 3,000 miles away. My parents thought we were staying with my friends married sister but we only did that for a week. The rest of the two months we hitch hiked, stayed in hostels, slept on the beach all night. etc. etc. Had a wonderful freedom filled time.

When I returned home my parents picked me up at the airport. My Mom hugged me and asked me if I missed her. I just shrugged and thought about how much I was giving up going home. My parents I thought would always be there. I didn't think of them at all while I was away, I'm sorry to say. It was all about me.

So, I think this is the same for my daughter. It is not that she doesn't care, she is just too caught up in her life. I think I should get a little more selfish myself and take care of myself better. I spend far too much time worrying and doting on my kids and don't do what I want to do and then I sometimes resent them.

So, moving on today. Getting past the hurt feelings and focusing on my needs for a change.

Kate

Have you asked her if she could come over and help you move the few boxes that she might want kept at your place? Perhaps give her a limit here..ie. 5 boxes, etc. Put the ball in her court to do some cleanup of her stuff and discarding.

I feel sorry for her because she is not properly using her support systems (each of her parents) and at same time, she probably feels people are distancing themselves from her.

Not all teenagers want to runaway from home. They just want their freedom at home but not take responsibility for being part of a family/household. This was the case for myself and all my siblings plus many of our closest friends.

As for her, seeing you cry in frustration when you expressed her lack of communication...she probably WILL remember this particularily if you don't cry in front of her over this sort of stuff.

I recall very vividly in a rip-roaring argument with my mother and demanded that she as a mother, be more like a "friend", so that I could hold a conversation with here, blah, blah, blah. I think I was in my early 20's, old enough and responsible, etc. My mother suddenly broke down and cried. My father intervened gently and asked me not to be so critical of her.

I realized how selfish I was ...that I was asking her to fit my definition of mothering. ...when she had tried her very best to look after me all my life at that time.

Your daughter will appreciate your civility and warmth at this time. Even if she is not clearly expressing her appreciation to you at the moment. Would you still have her live at your new apartment, if she was willing to sleep in the living rm. later on? Or would that be always a temporary arrangement if you should rent a smaller place?

Wow, you sound like a really good mother. I didn't read the whole thread but I can really feel for what you are going through. The father is definitely sabotaging your efforts at a reasonable relationship with your daughter.
For people who are not separated or divorced, the kid's STUFF issue is just as big a bother. We still have a lot of both sons' belongings, from childhood stuff to power tools. As they move out to places they can afford, they discover they don't have space for all the junk they have. And it's so hard to sort THEIR stuff, so it just sits in boxes stacked as nicely as possible. When you move, you're going to have to deal with it; so give the daughter time "daughter, in 2 weeks I will be moving. Since you won't tell me what you're planning to do, on X day I will drop all your stuff at your father's house"
You're still going to get the blame for whatever happens, but you have to take care of yourself first.
I think in the long run, your daughter is going to end up back with you because of the lack of care at Dad's house. I wish you a lot of luck with this, I was the product of a divorce and it's a very hard road to be on, especially with teenaged daughters!

I have asked her so many times to come over and sort out her stuff. She just doesn't want to do it. She is a major procrastinator. It will interfere with her social life, partying on the weekends etc.

If I move to a place without an extra room for her it would depend on the situation. If she felt unsafe at her Dad's of course she could stay on the couch. But at the moment she does not want to commit to anything. No matter how much I try to explain to her that she needs to let me know where she wants to live her answer is "I DON'T KNOW" This answer drives me crazy.

So, I will try to find a place that I can afford that may have a small den or something that she can move into if she decides later to.

The big problem is the housing in the city of live in. The rent is $2200 to $3000 for a house. You can rent a floor in a house for approx.1300 to $2000, meaning the basement is usually rented out.

I'm trying to get a full 3 bed house with a basement or den but just can't afford to pay such a high rent on one income for a full house.

Not the easiest situation to be in that is why I need her to tell me. I am not going to all the expense of moving and then later she says she wants to move in. I can't afford to move again to accommodate her. She just doesn't get that she will make many changes and decisions in the future.

Kate

If you give her a deadline it will move the responsibility from your shoulders to hers.
"I told you that stuff would be gone on X day"
and stick to your word.

Thanks Madeline, that makes sense I will do that.
Kate

If you can't bring yourself to get rid of her things, I see nothing wrong with giving her a deadline, then taking them to her. That way you can do it guilt-free.

Last night my border (17 yrs old) sneaked his girlfriend in. My room is right beside his (which is my former daughters room)
He came in late when I was already in bed. He pays rent and is a good kid but here I am facing this boyfriend/girlfriend situation all over again. First my daughter won't move back unless I allow her to have over nights at her boyfriends, now this kid wants to sneak girls in.

He thought I didn't know but when he came out of his room I asked him if his friend had left. He looked kind of sheepish. Guess she went out the window. I told him that if he had his own entrance, separate apt it would be none of my business as he pays rent. But, he lives in the house with all of us and it's sending a bad message to my 15 year old son. Next he will want to do it.

He knows about my issues with my daughter as we have talked about it. I asked him if his Mom would allow this and he said "well if it was late and she had no place to go" So I said, she would allow the girl to sleep with you in your bed? he said no and then said he was sorry. Really I'm beginning to think I am the only Mom who has any rules.

It was not my intention to make him feel bad and I think he knows this. This is a real catch 22 as he does pay rent. But he is in our living space. Right beside my room too which is not the greatest for me, privacy etc.

I am getting so tired of this. Want to just ship both the kids to their Dad's and get a one bedroom apartment for me.

Frustrated.

If you are moving to a smaller apartment, then this boarder and his girlfriend situation will no longer exist under same roof?

I'm not moving to a smaller apartment. I have to rent a house so I can rent out a room or two to international students. It actually works out cheaper than renting an apartment. I have pets and apartments don't take pets, well dogs anyway.

A three bed apartment, and there is no such a thing where I live, is almost the same rent as a house. If you get a house with one or two extra bedrooms your rent will be less than if you rent the apartment.

I have been a single Mom for 12 years and sometimes have to do this. Although we are in an economic crisis, the rents where I live have not gone down at all. Just the way it is.

He is avoiding me at the moment. Does not want to be around unless my son is home. I have no idea if he thinks I'm being unreasonable or not. Thems the rules so he will have to deal with it or move out. International students are the best bet, they pay more and are more respectful of house rules. They are also here to learn the language and culture and go to school so they have no time for the shananigans our teens get up to.

kate, wow, you're getting it from all ends. THis is so typical of the teens today, but I'm with you. I'm not for it in my own home. No way. Someone very close to me thinks I'm crazy for not letting the kids and their boy/girlfriends sleep together under my roof because she does it and thinks it's totally fine. She says they're doing it anyway. Well, so they are, but I believe in respect, especially at your children's ages. Hang tough and don't let go of your morals and values for their sake.

I think it's a great idea to rent when you need to. That way, there may be room for your daughter should she decide to come home.

I had a talk with my border/student today and things are ok. He told me it was not what I thought. She came through the window in the morning with another person. I had heard them talking. Regardless it was not ok and he knows it. He has been sheepish as he feels bad. At least he apologized.

As for kids having boyfriends/girlfriends sleeping over. I will stand my ground. I have heard that from others "they are doing it anyway" so what. That doesn't make it ok. If they do it anyway they will have to deal with sneaking around. Letting them do it in my house when I don't think it's right is just going to teach them that I'm wishy washy. I don't think that is a good message to send. Why are we so afraid to stand up to our kids. We are not their friends, well we are parents first, role models.

Yes it is all about respect for them and us. They want to live like free adults without any of the responsibilities. One day and it will be a long time from now when they have kids they will get it. So, for now at least they are aware that I stand for something and I am not going to change for them. It's about being a mentor and teaching by example. They will have to choose one day what they stand for.

Kate

Great to get an apology from him. He definitely knows right from wrong. Good for you to approach him about it.

I recall the first night Ross and I slept in my parents home AFTER we were married. We were living in Philly and came home for a visit. I think we hardly kissed. It still did't feel right.

But I have a funny story about someone who got rug burns on her knees because they were at the parent's home and didn't want the bed to squeek. The next day she walked out with these red spots on her knees and everyone wanted to know what happened... I still laugh about that one.

Yes we were all young once, sometimes it's good to remember that while we are laying down the rules. Be more understanding instead of demanding and critical.

I have a few of those rug burn stories of my own but won't share them :-) That gave me a chuckle.

Kate

Glad you got a laugh. Hope you're haiving a nice weekend. HAve you found your new home yet?

Yes, finally I got a really nice place, expensive though but could be worse. At least I have a paying student that helps with the rent.

My daughter is moving with us.

My ex is now in panic mode. We have a court date May 28th, which he initiated. He is trying to cancel the child support order because he has/had my daughter with him. He figured since I had one, and he had the other he should just pay nothing. He has an outstanding balance of arrears over $8,000.00

I responded to his court notice that I thought his taking me to court was pre-mature as my daughter may move back in with me. Well that is exactly what is happening.

Now he wants to work out a deal with me and not go to court. Why, because he will look kind of stupid saying he has both kids
(my eldest is 24 so doesn't count re: child support anymore)
when he has neither of them. The judge will ask him why he wants to cancel the child support order. He has some explaining to do.

Also the gov't body that collects arrears is threatening him with a hearing to give him jail time. I hope that doesn't happen but he needs to get it. I have been dealing with this for so many years now. I'm tired of it.

Kate
(It's a nice long weekend though so I'm going to go have coffee with friends and forget about it for now)

wow, Kate, sounds good! Good luck in court.

Kate, go to court. If you don't and then need to go later you will not be taken seriously. The same with the outfit that will collect what that slug owes you in back child support. Hang tough, let them fight your fight you have done your part lady. All these men need to be taught that they CAN'T HAVE THEIR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO...

Keep us posted Kate. How's your daughter doing, now that she is the process in settling back in at home?

It would be so great to have a magic ball. After going through all of this I have learned so much. My daughter now gets it about why I kept visits with her Dad at a minimum when they were younger.

Apparently his temper is alive and well and he has yelled at my daughter on more than one occasion. When he gets angry he is very scary. She has had enough and is relieved to be home. She is here most of the time and will officially move with us end of the month. At the moment her bed etc. is at her Dad's and my student has her room so she has to sleep on the couch which is fine by her.

My ex either doesn't get it or doesn't want to. I work two jobs but fortunately can do most of my work from home so have always been around for my kids.

The ex has a live in and they have three kids, the youngest is there child. The eldest moved out because of my ex's temper. The other girl (not his) has to put up with him. She is only 10. My daughter says he is terrible to her and she feels sorry for her.

Anyway, the Mom rarely works, my ex is always finding himself unemployed and it's always every one else's fault. The gov't body that monitors my child support are evil people trying to destroy him (his exact words) he calls on me and asks me to call them off. I really can't do this. I can but it would not be in my best interests. I just keep telling him to call them, not me. All the while he collects child support from the Dad of the 10 year old and if he is late or misses they go after him. Nuts!

Anyway, I am happy to have my daughter home with me. It's not always going to be easy but she knows where I stand around rules. If this hadn't happened she may always wonder about it and maybe romanticize about how much better it would be with her Dad. Now she knows.

I am a firm believer in natural consequences. It's the best way to learn a lesson. I could have told her it was a bad idea but she would not have listened. She had to find out for herself.

Kate

It’s like giving birth….the memory of the pain diminishes when you hold your child in your arms.

kate, phew, mission accomplished, but how sad that you had to have many sleepless nights for her to learn her lesson.

I know it won't be easy for your daughter to live by your rules, but stick to them. We are doing the same with our 21 year-old daughter who is back home with us after living on a college campus for 2 1/2 years and it isn't always easy. I try to stay focused on the poitive things, but still find myself nagging. Help.

The rules certainly the same as when she was a young teen, but there are still rules.

This won't be easy Dotsie. I moved back in with my parents after living on my own for two years. It was not easy to follow rules after having all the freedom I had. My Mom treated me like a teenager, always wanting to know where I was going. She expected me to be home for supper etc.

I had to move out as it was just not possible for me to go backwards. I moved home after being attacked late one night on my way home from the subway and was sexually assaulted. I was scared to live on my own after that, but, it was short lived.

It's important to avoid nagging as hard as it may be. Young adults really don't get it until they have kids of their own, then it comes back to them and they wonder how their parents did it.

Not easy.
Kate

Ew, sexually assaulted. I'm so sorry to hear that. How sad.

My daughter takes public transportation through some of the Worse neighborhoods in the city. It freaks me out. All I can do is pray for her protection. I'd love her to get her license, but she's not interested in learning right now. She has her learner's, but never wants to practice. She has a great sense of direction and I think she'd be a great driver. I don't get it.

I grew up in a big city and took a lot of chances. I thought nothing would happen to me. That was just one incident, there were a few more.

I guess I just thought I was smart enough to avoid trouble. From a young age guys exposed themselves to me on the way to school. I had to walk through a long creek area with loads of trees and places to hid. I got used to it and because they didn't do anything to me, I thought I was okay, but I was wrong. I had a false sense of security even though I had things happen to me.

I always tell my daughter I trust you, it's the perverts I don't trust. I have not gone into detail with her but she knows bad things happened to me. But it's the same old thing, it won't happen to me attitude. I hope your daughter stays safe. Travelling alone is what young women need to avoid. At least with someone along there is a witness, someone to help, or call police if necessary.
9 times out of ten victims are alone.

Kate

(hope I haven't caused you any unnecessary worry)

I have found that the best way to get along with your own teenager living back at home is to treat them like boarders, or other peoples kids. That seems to work and keeps the doors of communication open. Of course I had boys and it is a little easier not to worry about boys.

That is great advice Chatty. Stops the need for nagging and keeps the lines of communication open.

If they are sloppy and act like a hotel guest I'd tell them they have to move out. Some kids will take advantage. They will act like kids at home, wanting their parents to pick up after them, yet want to be treated like an adult when it suits them.

Respect has to work both ways.

Kate

How about an update now that summer is here?

Update:
Summer is here and kids are almost done school, just writing exams. Everything is good, kids are good and my daughter is with me and doing well. She is calling when out, checking in etc. We are back to normal. I think it was a good experience for her. A real learning experience for me.

Moving was a great idea as I now have them going by new house rules and they are keeping the house clean for the most part. My daughter is arranging her room which is new, usually she doesn't care but is making an effort now.

So, all is quiet on the home front which is so nice.
Thanks for asking.
Kate

Well life sure has it's ups and downs.
So, things were great for the first little while. My daughter is a nice girl, she does not talk back, she is not rude and is easy to talk to. We get along great for the most part. Other than her messy, messy room I could handle that. But........

There is always a but. She likes to party. She is 17 and when she was at her Dads' house she could basically come and go as she pleased. He allowed her to stay overnight at her boyfriends and he had no problem sleeping not knowing when she came in or if she even did.

Now, me, I can't sleep until my kids are in the house. I'm exhausted and it's still June. Two more months of summer....help.

Example: last night my daughter got ready to go out at 11:30pm. Some of her friends were meeting up after another friends grad ceremony downtown at a nice hotel. So at 2o minutes to midnight, my daughter is on her way out the door, by herself on her way to the bus stop to go downtown. Our city is small, it has an active downtown life and we only live about a 10 minute bus ride from it. There are often teenagers wandering around, hanging out, meeting up all hours of the night. I don't like it but it happens. It's a fairly safe place, only one child abduction in it's history I believe, but there are creeps out there for sure.

I told her she could not go, it was too late and she was not going to walk to the bus stop all by herself so late. She said nothing but then I heard the door close and off she went. In other words, what I say means nothing. She will do what she wants. She came in around 2am. I was of course awake and told her that I cannot put up with this behaviour, her response:

"Then I will move back in with Dad, I can do whatever I want there" And she is right.

Now, what would you do. I tried to come up with a compromise, no chance. She is stubborn and thinks nothing will happen to her, I worry too much etc. My biggest concern is her safety. She has no concerns about this.

I contacted my ex and he told me to trust her and did admit that he let her come and go, that he trusted her. I find this attitude so DUMB!

Anyway in the big picture there is really nothing I can do and she knows it. If I say no, she will just sneak out. Really at 17 what can you do, she knows that. I don't want to start world war three either.

Any advice would be most appreciated. Thank you ladies.
Kate

Hi Kate
geez, i can't believe what you are going through. Having the ex there just snickering at you with his permissiveness sure doesn't help.

When will she be 18?

If dad's so great, why did she move back in with you?

Dad's not great. She says he is selfish and yells at her all the time. Her room was in a dirty cold basement. But for her freedom it would be worth it to her. She prefers to be with me but on her terms. She wants is all her way, teens are very self- centered.

I just feel like I am being a push over. I have been a push over in many relationships. I'm way too nice.

My ex is now trying to get me to reduce the arrears he owes as he is going through so much stress with the gov't threatening to put him in jail for non payment of child support. He wants me to forgive $5,000 of the $10,000 he owes me so the bad gov't will get off his case. I'm actually considering it as at least he will pay me half which may never happen again. He has a job for 4 months and will be able to catch up on arrears if I forgive half of it. I wonder there too if I am being a push over.

Maybe I should ask the credit card companies that I owe if they will forgive half of it. I had to use cards to pay for clothes, shoes, even groceries for the kids as I was short every month due to him not paying me. Still I could put the money towards the debt and at least pay some of it off.

A dilemma for sure.

Kate

Kate, you most definitely can bargain with the credit card companies. You have to make your own decisions about whether to forgive his debt (let the state go after him, they'll attach it to his social security!)

Give your daughter an ultimatum (To thine own self be true, Kate)
I want to raise you the the way I believe is best for you. If you will not abide by my rules, go back to your father.

Good luck. You are between a rock and a hard place.
Your daughter is so sweet; talk to her?
Talk to the parents of the friends who are out doing things after midnight?

Thanks Madelaine,
I have similar thinking. Her Dad is away for four months trying to make some money to pay me off, so telling her to move there will have to wait.

As for the other parents they are not easy to talk to as we don't know each other. Some are ok with it and don't seem to care, others are told lies by their kids. The old, "I'm at a friends place when they are really at a party"

She is sweet but you have to dig stuff out of her. She is a very closed book. She will talk briefly but will then say, I don't want to talk about it anymore. She does not like confrontation which is how she sees it. I am just trying to come up with some compromises. She can be very frustrating.

I am trying to see the positives as it is always easier to focus on the problem areas. To my knowledge she does not use drugs, she goes to school, she wants to graduate, is in the choir and is respectful for the most part other than going against my rules. It could be a lot worse. But this has to be dealt with and
when her Dad gets back if it is not resolved, she may have to go back with him.

Kate

As for the credit cards, I know you can work something out if you are going to close down the account and pay it all out. I pay every month and am not in any trouble. They keep sending me letters to increase my amount. I just want to pay down the amount to zero, not close the account. I don't think they would be interested in doing this as long as I still want to keep an active account.

I have to have a credit card for my job, travelling expenses etc. Without a credit card you can't do much these days. My company pays me but I have to put it on the card first, then invoice them.

So, I can pay off some of the debt if I go with the ex's deal, but I loose basically, in money that is.

Kate

Kate, you are between a rock and a hard place which often happens to divorced couples when one parent is softer than the other. I've seen this happen in our town. Children bounce back and forth between Mom and Dad's and it's tough.

If you can focus on the postitives and know in your heart that she's a good kid, then can you rest with her in your home? The only problem, and I tell my kids this too, is that they're all good kids with smart heads on their shoulders, but with a few beers in them, it all goes out the window. It's not them I don't trust, but the alcohol and the rest of the world.

I wish there was a worry switch parents could turn off when going to bed at night while the kids are still out and about.

Sorry I'm not much help.