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#101941 - 01/07/07 05:44 PM Living Abroad
Anonymous
Unregistered


Although another 25 years from 65, I've thought of living abroad when I retire, just a few years. Have any of ya'll thought of this or know of anyone who has? I've no children, my youngest niece will be 32 in 25 years, and I really don't have much of a family other than my nieces/nephew. Thought it would be nice to live abroad for 2 years, i.e., winter in New Zealand & Australia (which would be spring/summer there), Europe, South America and North America, the later of which I'd rent a winnebago or camper and travel across the USA and Canada. Then, I'd settle down somewhere and buy a condo w/ a view!

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#101942 - 01/07/07 05:49 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: ]
jawjaw Offline
Da Queen

Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 12025
Loc: Alabama
I have. I wouldn't mind living aboard for a year but now that I have grandbeauties, I just don't know if I could stand to be away from them for that long. My boys won't fly, so this means I would be without grandchildren for a year. Dunno....What I would love to do is have a "writer in residence" for about six months somewhere, like Ireland or Scotland. Even Germany. Or New Zealand...

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#101943 - 01/08/07 03:26 AM Re: Living Abroad [Re: jawjaw]
diamond50 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 992
Loc: Honolulu, Hawaii
We thought about it, too, but we would miss our
kids and grandkids too much. And we would miss
Hawaii's great weather and also the food : )
Cindy

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#101944 - 01/08/07 06:58 AM Re: Living Abroad [Re: diamond50]
jawjaw Offline
Da Queen

Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 12025
Loc: Alabama
I'm thinking I could go live a month with Chatty, then Dianne, then Cindy, then Eagle, then Hannelore, then Lola, then Popea and Celtic, then Dotsie, th----what? What do you mean you're moving...

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#101945 - 01/08/07 07:26 AM Re: Living Abroad [Re: jawjaw]
chickadee Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/04
Posts: 3910
Loc: Alabama
Sure...leave me out.

chick
_________________________
chick
~ Here is the test to find whether your mission on Earth is finished: if you're alive, it isn't ~
~ Prayer is the most we can do for another human being ~

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#101946 - 01/08/07 07:31 AM Re: Living Abroad [Re: chickadee]
Edelweiss Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 4136
Loc: American living in Europe
Did you say Germany JJ?
Picture this: A mid-driffed woman waving her beer mug in the air, while tossing long fake blond braids over her shoulders.
Is it Heidi from the Alps? A table dancer from the October fest? Why nooo, it's Hannelore, cleaning the guest room, and making sure the toilet flushes!

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#101947 - 01/08/07 10:06 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Edelweiss]
Jane_Carroll Offline
member

Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 1521
Loc: Alabama
Sometimes I fantasize about living somewhere like Tibet...and then I think about how hard it would be to see my kids and now granddaughter...so I'll probably hang around. Why Tibet? I think it's the spirituality of that area and the mountains that intrigues me.
_________________________
Jane Carroll

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#101948 - 01/08/07 11:15 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Jane_Carroll]
jawjaw Offline
Da Queen

Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 12025
Loc: Alabama
Chick babe...I'm coming there last. Be afraid...be very afraid. Better yet, stock up on Oreo's...will ya?

Jane, don't they have very, very, very, large snakes there? Two things scare me out of my wits. Well, besides the IRS...and that's sharks and snakes. Not necessarily in that order either.

Hannelore...I must come there. Don't you all have lots of festivals there WITH food, beer, and dancing? Hmm....yep...that's a must do.

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#101949 - 01/08/07 11:42 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: jawjaw]
Lola Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
Hi, MustangGal: Another way to travel through Europe on your retirement is by rail. That way you won't have to worry about maintaining a vehicle. Accommodations can also be arranged in convents and monasteries that offer board and lodgings, especially for those who travel alone.

That's fine, JJ. Then we can both try out rollmop herring at the same time!
_________________________
<><

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#101950 - 01/09/07 06:38 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: ]
mrs_madness Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 217
Loc: Moscow
We live abroad. Been doing it almost 4 years and will continue to do so for what looks like some years to come.

I can give you some practical advise. Though you may blow it off (as I did) as a minor inconvenience, language barriers are a huge huge problem. I always expected if all these people in this country could speak this language, if toddlers on the street could do it--so could I. Yeah....that's not quite how it works out. The older you are the more difficult language acquisition becomes. You'd be amazed as to what I cannot do here because of the language issue: I cannot make a phone call for a haircut or dentist appointment. I have to find the [only] providers who speak English and GO THERE to arrange the service. I have cats who need shots and spaying but it isn't done because I can't find an English speaking vet. I studied for a year and work among native speakers only and yet can still blurt out only the most miserable mispronounced phrases. It is far far more difficult than you think.

Believe me here, banking and bill paying are a nightmare. Certainly some countries are better than others, are more integrated into the international financial infrastructure, but taking care of finances from a foreign country is an ongoing never-ending problem.

Western Europe is out of your league, it's so ridiculously expensive you can't possible afford to live there unless you're an independently wealthy American or a backpacker. There are issues with extended visas, permanent foreign residency, visa renewal, taxes....dealing with international government bureaucracy is not for the faint hearted or short tempered. And it has to be done every few months or every year, over and over again. At some considerable expense. Since you mentioned them, Australia and New Zealand are nearly impossible to immigrate to. And yes they do speak English (sort of).

That's just a thumbnail. I have more, plenty more. But easily the biggest issue is the language problem. I'll never forget the time I went to the cosmetics store (I'm always guessing as to what something is, the label is all in a foreign language and alphabet) and I finally bought what I was sure was face moisturizer. But when I put it on it felt weirdly waxy....so I took it to a bilingual native and asked what in the world it was--it turned out to be makeup remover. Multiply that by anything and everything you buy. The smallest tasks and errands you take for granted in America can each be a huge struggle in a foreign country. Every day.

If I can help you with more specific questions, please ask.

P.S. I was in the UK last week, where they speak English (sort of) and it-was-the-most-expensive-place-I've-ever-seen. Ohmygod, the price of everything had to be doubled to convert to dollars. Stunningly, amazingly, stupendously, expensive. You won't be moving there.

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#101951 - 01/09/07 07:00 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: mrs_madness]
Dancing Dolphin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 2529
Loc: Southern California
Wow, what a great post, mrs_madness. To see it through the eyes of someone experiencing it removes just a little of the glamour, doesn't it?

Some people may think living abroad would be like an extended vacation, but with your information I can see what a hassle it might be. Guess it will just depend on how much these people want to live there.

I think I'll stick with the travel/visit part!

Kathy

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#101952 - 01/09/07 07:19 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Dancing Dolphin]
Edelweiss Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 4136
Loc: American living in Europe
I've heard Moscow is quite a metropolitan city; fashionable, snazzy and full up yuppies. Is that true? That's why I was surprised to read that they can't speak English.
In Germany every child has to learn English from the fourth grade on.
Oh yes, London is supposed to be the most expensive city in all of Europe! Lola can probably tell us more about that.
Mrs. Madness, It took me a long time before I could say I speak German fluently. And even if you do master the language, the different dialects are like another language! Russian must be very difficult. They have another alphabet too, don't they?
I'd love to hear more about living in Moscow. Are the Russians friendly to Americans?

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#101953 - 01/09/07 07:24 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Edelweiss]
Dianne Offline
Queen of Shoes

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 6123
Loc: Arizona
My sister has the same problem living in France. She's taken lessons, listened to CD's but she's having a very difficult time. Not to mention that you have to talk to a pharmacist to even buy aspirin and describe your symptoms.

She had a mammogram there and they didn't give her a robe to wear and expected her to sit there topless with people passing by. Said she's taking a robe the next time.

Those brain channels shut down with age.
_________________________
If it doesn't feel good, don't do it twice.
www.eadv.net



Boomer Queen of Shoes

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#101954 - 01/09/07 08:36 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Edelweiss]
mrs_madness Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 217
Loc: Moscow
Quote:

I've heard Moscow is quite a metropolitan city; fashionable, snazzy and full up yuppies. Is that true? That's why I was surprised to read that they can't speak English.
In Germany every child has to learn English from the fourth grade on.
Oh yes, London is supposed to be the most expensive city in all of Europe! Lola can probably tell us more about that.
Mrs. Madness, It took me a long time before I could say I speak German fluently. And even if you do master the language, the different dialects are like another language! Russian must be very difficult. They have another alphabet too, don't they?
I'd love to hear more about living in Moscow. Are the Russians friendly to Americans?





As boomer women well know, America and Russia have had a rocky relationship throughout most of the 20th century, and Russia has spent most of it's historical existence in isolation, so no, English is a fair rarity here. There are not more than a few thousand at most, Americans in Russia. Russia is exceptional in its isolation. I've had people tell me they met more English in Africa and Asia and everywhere else than Russia.

But since we've lived here we've traveled from time to time and I'm pretty sure that when you leave the confines of western Europe and north America you've left most English behind. Even in Europe, Czech for example (where we've been) many people may speak some English but everything in print is in Czech. Newspapers, bus schedules, grocery receipts--all Czech. A very cosmopolitan place, but Czech is their language and that's what they do official printed business in.

For an American to consider living overseas on American dollars, western Europe is just totally out of the question. So for Mustang Gal to retire someplace where she can afford to live on her dollars she would have to go elsewhere. And the more elsewhere you go, the less English you find.

Health care is a problem. Western doctors in western style clinics cost more here then they do in America. This is very common around the world. Expats are presumed to be rich, rich, rich, and they pay through the nose for everything. Many countries have nationalized health care (which is a great thing) but you can't access it if you can't speak the language. Period.

We brought a king size bed with us to Moscow, where we cannot buy bedding for it nor are there washers big enough for the blankets. There are no laundromats in Russia. This has been a 4-year thorn in my side. I can't read the directions on a pack of soup mix. There is no such thing as fresh milk. Even deciphering the flavor of a can of cat food is guess work. I'm improving, but it's all still a struggle....and we're probably moving to China next year. I don't speak Chinese either.

This all would probably have been more fun 20 years ago. My sense of adventure is becoming stunted and I'm tired of all the simple yet seemingly impossible hassles. Yes, it's been a growing and learning experience, but in retrospect, if I had known then what I know now, I would have stayed put in my cute little farmhouse and grown roses and been happy.

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#101955 - 01/09/07 08:44 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Edelweiss]
Lola Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
Hi, Mrs Madness. Nice to meet you. Another expat! Yes, I think it is a good idea to share our experiences with those who consider living abroad whether it is to be on a temporary basis or permanently because there are a lot of things to take on board.

Language is one of them. While English is spoken here, it is very different to American English. I was able to cope with it because I was sent to British schools all my life and was quite familiar with the difference between British and American vocabularies. There are variations to the British English according to regions and country i.e. Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England. However, because of the influx of American T.V. programmes, American colloquials have seeped into the British mainstream. A good thing because blank expressions are now rare on those occasions when the alternative to lifts and roundabouts is expressed. Although it would certainly bring a smile or a giggle pants are asked for instead of trousers. Pants being undergarments here. Trainers are sneakers and not bras. But these are minor things and quite enjoyable encounters really.

Living costs and taxes. Yes, London is a very expensive city to settle in. But, one has to take into account that the system here is very different to that in the US. Taxes bear the cost of a social system which takes care of its citizens from cradle to grave with free medical, free education, income support, housing benefits etc. The taxes from the "haves" support the "have nots" at various degrees, terms and qualifications. A good thing really because changes of one's circumstances are sometimes so unforeseen. The "haves" can just as surely be the "have nots". The children of Robert Maxwell had a direct experience of that and quite a good example to bring up. All in gainful employment contribute to a National Insurance which benefits all across the board whether one chooses to benefit from it or not. One thing that must also be taken into account is that, a sterling pound earned has its purchasing power in sterling pound so, living in London may not be that expensive to Londoners. Unless of course one lives beyond one's means. But, that applies anywhere for that matter anyway.

There are many facets to life in the UK that I appreciate most. The one good thing that I admire about the British is the access its citizens have to their politicians. A dissatisfied citizen can openly confront their MP, and even the Prime Minister, about governmental bureaucracy which brings about a direct effect to one's life and not be slapped with a federal offence. Politicians can be made directly accountable to the electorate. Each MP holds a surgery (meeting) in their district where a member of the constituency can come to bring their concerns. One just has to watch when legislation is debated in Parliament and appreciate that democracy is well and alive in the UK.

The National Health Service here which is the organisation responsible for health care still practise medical and nursing care in the old way. For all the criticism it gets from the public because of the general subscription to it and some failures to meet its need by shortgae of medical personnel, hospital and beds, I would still rank it if not the top, the best in the world in terms of its very personal nursing care.

Then there is the culture, history, arts and literature. For the writers and artists: Charles Dickens, Shakespeare, Dylan Thomas, Oscar Wilde, Jane Austen...I can go on and on. And a living history to it all is the Queen. Regardless of what positions any one takes with regards to monarchy, her ancestry is unequalled in terms of the historical figures she represents.

Well, I hope you all can pardon a very lengthy post on what is actually just a short summary of my 17-year residency in London. And if anyone should decide to move from there to here, in retirement or otherwise, I'd be most happy to personally help with the adjustments to UK lifestyle.
_________________________
<><

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#101956 - 01/10/07 11:27 AM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Lola]
chatty lady Offline
Writer

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 20267
Loc: Nevada
Mrs_Madness, may I ask why you live abroad? If couldn't be because you prefer to. Now china, sounds like your going from the frying pan into the fire. You are so generous to share these points with us. I never would have thought of some of the problems you mentioned. I have thought of spending 1/2 year in Italy and 1/2 here, but I speak little Italian....
_________________________
Take a peek at my BLOG:

http://charleen-micheles.blogspot.com/


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#101957 - 01/10/07 01:06 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: chatty lady]
mrs_madness Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 217
Loc: Moscow
Since so many of you have mentioned living part time in Italy here is a good link to Italian visitor/visa regulations. http://www.traveldocs.com/it/vr.htm. The "Travel Document Systems" website is a great resource to find out everything you need to know about official documents needed for travel just about everywhere. You will see that an American can stay in Shengen countries for a total of only 3 months as a tourist. With the exception of Portugal, Shengen countries are all wildy expensive.

There is a vast difference between being a tourist and living part or full time in another country. When you move beyond the normal tourist stay you find that there begin to be a host of visa problems, tax issues, residency restrictions, work permit problems, and health care eligibility prohibitions and restrictions. Many types of American (usually employer provided) health insurance policies have strict limitations outside of the US, including nullification of the policy. It is also worth nothing that American Medicare is only good in the US. Once you're outside the country Medicare no longer covers you.

Also the idea of taking a camper or other vehicle and traveling Europe is again, a very expensive one. Gas throughout most of Europe is going to run you a couple of Euro per litre(!) Currently the Euro is about $1.25 and one gallon is 3.3 litres. Do the math and you'll see that gas in Europe is 6-8 dollars a gallon. Then there is maintenance and repair for the vehicle (in a foreign language), foreign road signs, foreign driving habits, foreign road laws which vary from country to country, vehicle insurance....etc.

Moving overseas is possible and can be done, but should be carefully researched before any whimsical decision is made.

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#101958 - 01/10/07 03:39 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: mrs_madness]
Dianne Offline
Queen of Shoes

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 6123
Loc: Arizona
Have you been able to make any girlfriends there? My sister has only made friends with other American women living in France.

Her husband is French so he's a huge help in reading labels, etc. But then, most French speak English so it isn't quite as serious as your situation.
_________________________
If it doesn't feel good, don't do it twice.
www.eadv.net



Boomer Queen of Shoes

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#101959 - 01/11/07 01:46 AM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Dianne]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lola, good idea for rail travel throughout Europe. Although 25 years until I retire, I'd really love to live abroad for at least a year. The UK certainly has a lot to offer. Lola, is the UK your original national country of origin? I've told my three nieces that they can choose a country(ies) depending upon the specials and I'd take them each to Europe in the year they each independently turn 16. Thus, trips to Europe begin in 2009, 2014 and 2016! Plenty of time to save $$$ before and inbetween birthdays!

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#101960 - 01/11/07 07:20 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: ]
Dianne Offline
Queen of Shoes

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 6123
Loc: Arizona
Be very careful on the rail. High theft.
_________________________
If it doesn't feel good, don't do it twice.
www.eadv.net



Boomer Queen of Shoes

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#101961 - 01/11/07 08:07 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Dianne]
Lola Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
Hi, MustangGal: I am originally from NY (Manhattan). Your nieces are very lucky to have such a doting Aunt. Europe is a fascinating continent to visit and the railway system is the best way to go about because each city is almost just a hop, skip and a jump from each other. Paris is only a 3 hour journey by train from London. You can pick a port of entry in any European city and venture onwards from there. Travel by rail also allows the traveller to have a better insight of each country and its people. If you plan your journey well, you can cross the continent from Rome to London (or even the opposite direction) by rail in two months and manage to visit countries in-between along the way. Your nieces surely have a treat to look forward to.
_________________________
<><

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#101962 - 01/11/07 08:37 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Lola]
Edelweiss Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 4136
Loc: American living in Europe
The new German trains (ICE trains) are just beautiful, and they're almost as fast as the airplanes (368km/ hour)! They are very modern, have lots of legroom, and fantastic dining. You don't hear the click-clack sound in them; they seem to soar over the tracks. They even have movies at each seat, like in an airplane...only you have so much more room.
Here is a link with pictures:
ICE

Here is a link in English

Intercityexpress

What a wonderful present to give your nieces! That's something they will remember for the rest of their lives, that's for sure.

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#101963 - 01/11/07 08:40 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Edelweiss]
Lola Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
Hi, Hannelore: You reckon we ought to ask the Tourist Board to give us some commission for promoting travel here?
_________________________
<><

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#101964 - 01/11/07 08:57 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Lola]
Edelweiss Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 4136
Loc: American living in Europe
Hi, Lola! You thinking like a business woman? Go girl! Yeah, I reckon we should at least get some free train tickets.

Hey, I heard there are terrible winds storms in England. Airport is closed and everything.
Glad you are sitting safely behind your keyboard.

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#101965 - 01/12/07 07:59 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Edelweiss]
Daisygirl Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/05
Posts: 1052
Loc: Ohio
I have a good friend who is French but has lived in the US for about 40 years and is a citizen of course. She recently returned to France to bury her mother and she said she has no desire to visit France again. She is now American, and was not allowed to defend her country to her 8 siblings. They don't like us.

Do any of you expats ever experience anti-Americanism?

When I visited France with her about 10 years ago, my friend's family accepted me with open arms, and strangers were very kind also, but now they can't even accept their own blood relative.
_________________________
Laura

laurapoplin.com

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#101966 - 01/12/07 08:50 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Daisygirl]
Lola Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
Yes, I encountered some anti-American sentiments when I was at law school. Mostly, it manifested at lectures/tutorials when we discussed substantive legal principles and there would always be one person who would debate against American policies and applications under the guise of comparative analysis. There were also stabs at semantics. But, I always gave back as good as I got so, I did not find it irksome at all and attributed that to overzealous law students and I think ignorance also contributed to that. Generally, the British are a very friendly lot and I have yet to meet one who would strongly or directly confront me with anti-American slurs or behave in an untoward manner just because I am American.

It can be different in the continent however, when some locals pick up on the American accent. There have been occasions when some would talk behind my back with derisions like "obnoxious American" or "go home, foreigner" or "stupid American, we don't want your dollars here" etc. Something like the Chevy Chase movie "Lampoon's European vacation". But, it's not often and it depends on where I go. I get a kick out of the situation when I retort loudly, but politely, in the local vernacular and leave them with red faces all around.

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#101967 - 01/12/07 09:56 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Lola]
Edelweiss Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 4136
Loc: American living in Europe
Good question Daisygirl. Just want to say right off that the French are known not to like anyone other than the French. Maybe now, they are a bit friendlier to Germans, but that's a recent development, stemming from their united view on world politics.

Anti-Americanism in Germany? No, I've never personally experienced it. But when you watch TV, you get a lot of anti Bush-ism. And you do get to hear how perplexed the Germans are about American politics.

Before the Iraq war, I was often asked how I can stand living in a small German town. And how could I ever have left such a fantastic country like America. Those questions have stopped.

I think the Germans have developed a newfound patriotism, which oddly enough has been triggered through the World Soccer Games. Also Germans are proud of the fact that they held their stand and didn't participate in the war. Because of the socialised system; slums and extreme poverty is practically non-existent here. Many can't understand how a world power, like the U.S. can't or won't take better care of it's own people, like in the New Orleans catastrophe.

To answer your question Daisygirl, I've noticed that Germans don't gush anymore when they talk about America. But American tourists are welcomed here, and Germans still love Americans as individuals and their hospitality. That hasn't changed at all.

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#101968 - 01/12/07 10:07 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Edelweiss]
Lola Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
Hi, Hannelore: Just curious. The German team is the nemesis of English football and when they do come up against each other at a match, the British tabloids' sports sections print very shameful derogatory remarks about the opposing side. Do you get coverage of that there?
_________________________
<><

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#101969 - 01/12/07 10:16 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Lola]
Edelweiss Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 4136
Loc: American living in Europe
Hi Lola. Yes, I remember. Those comments were printed on the front page of some news papers…They had called the Germans Nazis pigs and such.

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#101970 - 01/12/07 11:10 PM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Edelweiss]
Lola Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3703
Loc: London UK
Shameful. Really appallingly shameful. That's the ugly side of the tabloids here. Because of football...how ridiculous. I could never understand it.
_________________________
<><

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#101971 - 01/13/07 08:08 AM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Lola]
Edelweiss Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 4136
Loc: American living in Europe
Lola, the Germans took the insults rather well. They know there's a difference between the soccer hooligans and the normal English person. The fanatic English soccer fans were furious because about 800 of their passports were taken, so they couldn't come to the games. But the English government instigated that; the Germans didn't have anything to do with it.
It paid off. The games came through without a single violent incident.

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#101972 - 01/22/07 01:10 AM Re: Living Abroad [Re: Edelweiss]
chatty lady Offline
Writer

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 20267
Loc: Nevada
Boys will be boys, which usually means stupid, out of control and needing a good butt kicking!
_________________________
Take a peek at my BLOG:

http://charleen-micheles.blogspot.com/


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#101973 - 01/22/07 03:08 AM Re: Living Abroad [Re: chatty lady]
Anno Offline
Member

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 4434
Loc: Minneapolis Minnesota
I have enjoyed reading this thread today. I want to be an expat, too. I have wanted to live in a socialized country for years.

This summer we will be in Spain for a while and I really want to start spending more time in Europe. I have been on a South America and Central America theme for so long, but know I am thinking that Europe may be the better choice, for so many reasons.

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