How can I say this without sounding whiney?

Ok, you guys know by now that I am sadly childless. Yes, I do have a great life, but sometimes those zingers just hit my and it hurts even more.

So, I have this lovely, Christian friend for 10 years now. She has such a giving heart and has the gift of "helps". "C" (who is 56 yrs old)and I hit it off from the get go. Now, she works for me, which is wonderful...however:

She is CONSTANTLY telling me about how wonderful her daughter is to her (she only has the one)..that she buys her clothes etc. Helps her monetarily...and the grandkids/how wonderfully smart they are and what fun she has being around them and how much she misses them blah, blah, blah. My friend is not the brightest but her heart is big.

So, my question. How can I tell "C" that she may not realize what a heartache it is to hear her continuously bragging about her daughter. All of her talk is a huge reminder of what I do not have and longed for. All I say is "that's so nice". But inside I'm sobbing.

please help...and be honest!

Di, I'm sorry you're feeling so low. I've read many of your posts and visited your website, and I know that this is terribly difficult for you. But I'm going to say something that may not be popular -

People enjoy talking about what they love. If you don't allow people to share what's important to them, then it's difficult for them to have anything to talk about. Think about friends that get together for a good time - they talk about what they love and their friends ARE HAPPY FOR THEM.

We can all try to be sensitive to your loss - because it is a true loss - but we should not have to watch everything we say all the time. I sometimes feel that you are overwhelmed with sad thoughts and it's difficult for you to be happy for others.

I feel that you need to try to find things that DO make you happy, so you can share your good times and thoughts with your friends as well. Most people probably don't understand how deeply you hurt for a child, but will you let that ruin your friendships and other relationships?

I truly hope I haven't hurt you; you wanted honesty and that is what I feel.

Take care,
Kathy

Thank you for your honesty,kathy. I appreciate it.

Now my question would be doesn't anything else beside her daughter/grandkids make her happy? This is constant/every day she's here. I think too much is too much.

I'll never get over this emptiness I feel. Some people, I know, want to tell me to get over it, but I will never be completely healed. There is not one day that goes by where I do not sense an aloneness in this world. Everywhere I look there are reminders.

I may talk to my friend. She's a very compassionate so I think she'll understand.

Dear Di,
Like Kathy, I too have read all your posts. So many of us have tried to comfort and understand you, but were not able to really sooth your pain.

I agree that if you have such a good friend, she must know of your pain, and should be more considerate of your feelings. Only, that doesn't solve the problem. You will always meet people that will talk of their children and grandchildren. Maybe you should choose friends in the same situation as you are in. That's like everything else…we choose friends with whom we have things in common with.

I personally believe you have to find piece within yourself. You yourself are a child of God. Nurture yourself, take care of yourself, and rejoice in life itself.

Have you ever tried Yoga, meditating, or Tai Chi? I do Tai Chi almost every morning. At first I thought it was boring and a waste of time, but it's amazing. You really can go to "another" level; a level of meditating, where it's just you and your world. I've found peace through Tai Chi, and it has helped me move things back into perspective. I don't think it matters if you pray or meditate, but I can only get to that "other" level through meditation. I guess its sort of a self-hypnosis.

Have a wonderful peaceful day, Di.
Hannelore

Di, I've been thinking about this throughout the night, trying to figure out how to answer. Like Hannelore, I've read all your posts and empathized with you - I too am childless, not by choice, and I too have experienced that emptiness that will never go away. And I've experienced the kind of friendships you've shared here, where people aren't always so sensitive to what wounds me. It's not an easy road to walk, but I can guarantee you that as long as we hold on to the bitterness and the emptiness and the belief that we "will never be healed", we are doomed to sabotage every friendship, every social activity we try and every attempt by God Himself to help us find our way through to the abundant and meaningful life (and there IS an abundant life for those of us without children) that is ours to live.

You say that "too much is too much", but I have to ask where you draw that line, because from all of your posts, I've seen an emerging pattern - that anything is too much. That any child-talk in your presence is too much. And if that's true, you ARE doomed to a lifetime of disappointment and bitter regret, because I can guarantee it will never stop. Mothers will never stop talking about their children. Grandmothers will never stop bragging about their grandchildren. So what do we do? Avoid all mothers, parents and grandparents? That would deprive us of a lot of opportunities for growth and wisdom and abundance of life.

Nobody expects a childless or any other wounded woman to "get over it", but I do believe (because I've found it myself) that there is abundant life beyond our childlessness. I've managed to find that place where I'm finally okay with being childless, simply because that's my reality so what else can I do, remain bitter and regretful for the rest of my life? That's not how I choose to live my life. I choose to trust that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be in order to fulfill my unique pupose on this earth, that I didn't have children for a reason, and so I actively look for all the silver linings in that cloud (and there are LOTS of silver linings). I mean, if I have to be childless, I might as well find a way to accept that it's my reality, that it's never going to change, so I might as well enjoy it, because the alternative is to remain in that empty bitterness for the rest of my life. Well, that just doesn't appeal to me anymore - I WANT to live, and to live the life I DO have, not forever grieve a life I DON'T have and was never meant to have. So I'm searching for the benefits of being childless (and there are LOTS of benefits once you go looking for them) so that I can live an abundant life, and I also search for the "why" of my childlessness - not the medical reasons, but the spiritual "why", from the perspective of my unique purpose on earth.

My experience is twofold. If I was meant to have children, I would have had children. Since I couldn't have and didn't have children, it means that I was not meant to have children. That means that God has other plans for me, that my life has a purpose other than to raise children. That is our reality. And until we find inner peace, until we move ourselves beyond clinging to the emptiness and pain, and into an active embracing of that reality of who we are - not just childless women, but women with a unique purpose - everything anyone says will always be "too much" and we doom ourselves to a lifetime of sorrow and bitter anger. There's so much more to life than that.

I've managed to move beyond the disappointment and empty aching (it's still there at times, but I refuse to let it govern my life now) to find that being kind to others and being happy for others and being there for others in unique ways that mothers can't be helps to fill the void and helps to make my childlessness more meaningfull.

This probably doesn't help you with your current friendship. My experience is that people talk about what makes them happiest and what makes them saddest. The Golden Rule is still my rule of thumb, giving to others what I would want them to give to me - and what I want most from others is a listening heart and compassion for what I'm going through. While I don't always get that from others, I do find it gives me joy to give that listening and compassion to others, even when it's painful for me to do so. I believe that ultimately we are happiest when we are kindest toward others. Kindness often comes at a cost; despite the constant "child-talk", underneath all that, your kind and giving friend sounds lonely. Sounds like she needs a true friend, someone who loves her just the way she is, not just for what she can give.

Just a postscript I thought while doing housework. My Mom had four children who adored her. We spent as much time as possible with her, cooking, cleaning, listening, etc. And yet, no matter how much we did for her, no matter how much she knew we loved her, she was still lonely, and very terrified that she would die all alone in some lonely nursing home. I think that fear is much more prevalent than we can imagine - we think that as childless women, we have the monopoly on the greatest possibility of dying alone, but not so, unfortunately. Some of the loneliest, wounded and frightened people I know are women who have children...I think we all need each other's love and support to get through life. I still think kindness toward others is the best way through...it's the whole ripple effect thing again - we really do reap what we sow....

Ladies, you've given such lovely, heart-felt responses for Di. Thank you.

I believe all of us are given a purpose and gifts to live that purpose.

Di, you obviously have been given a purpose with your soap business and the gifts to be successful. I'm sure you chat about it with your friend while the two of you are working. I'm just playing the devil's advocate a little bit, so hang with me.

Do you think it's possible that your friend thinks you talk about your business too much? Or, do you think that being self-employed is something she would be grateful for?

She has kids, you would love to have them. You have a business. She may love to be self-employed.

I guess I'm just trying to share that all of us have different lives, very different in many aspects. We need to rejoice with those who rejoice.

I know this isn't the same, but are you willing to mentor kids at a local orphanage? If so, this may give you something to talk about when others talk about their children.

My husband mentors a little guy at the local orphanage. He began as soon as our oldest left for college. To this day our oldest jokes that he was replaced by a little orphan boy. This summer he asked Ross if he was picking up two more to mentor since our youngest two are leaving for college.

Please know this post is from the heart. I tried to have children for four years before adopting, then giving birth. I feel your pain. I recall the days and late nights of wondering what in the heck I would do if I never had a family.

I missed this post and I am writing just after posting a little mention to Dotsie on the day her daughter leaves for college.
for a second I thought OOPS...I have mentioned my children.Then I thought this.
My husband is blind... yet he listens to all we explain about what we have seen.I stopped wanting him to come to art galleries .I still go.I share my poems with him and he is moved to tears by some of the descriptions I attempt to capture.We all have areas of vulnerability.
For most of my career I worked with disability.I know the frustration that is carried within a person particularly a
child and the idea of tai chi is a good one.Or indeed a more active sport..acting and dance are also a good forums to access release from hurt.
A friend who talks about ONLY her daughter has a narrow range of interest.Perhaps you pick up on that topic like radar.If the friendship is to thrive keep other topics alive and be interested in them.Does the friend search for you to comment because you close up at the mention of her child.
I feel concern that you may botle up strong feelings and lose her friendship and then suffer needless remorse.
I may sound harsh...I dont mean to hurt I just want to show from another perspective that this is wonderful world.
Mountain Ash

I too have read every single post on this subject and answered many but something came to mind today. What you are doing Di is trying to censor mothers and grandmothers to not EVER speak of their prides and joy in your presence. That is like spreading the pain, changing its direction from you to everyone whos not childless. They shpuld be able to speak anyway they please, as should you. Maybe when someone begins to ramble on about their kids you sould say right out, immediately, "I prefer not to hear about this as I am childless, not by choice." Then stop and see what happens. Maybe you'd feel better about them and about yourself. I don't know just a thought.

Thank you all for your heartfelt replies. It's interesting to read the thoughts of those who are mothers!

I so appreciate everyone!

Di,
I don't 'know' you but I'm guessing that if this is how you feel, it's probably not going to change. So here's a suggestion. Next time your friend starts talking about her daughter, let her talk a few minutes and then simply say "You're so lucky. I've always wished I had a daughter." And then change the subject. You may be right that your friend has not got a lot of other topics to talk about and maybe you two could try some other subjects. I talk a lot about my kids too, for the very same reason. I don't have a lot of other subjects. But if someone LED me into a conversation about something else, I might follow.

Best wishes

I feel the way Eagle does, and agree with her understanding response. If God/Goddess/Universe meant for me to have children, I would have.

There are so many children in this world with nobody to love them. Break down your barrier and love one. Even if adoption is out of the question, you could mentor a little girl or become a Big Sister. When you start reaching out to others in need, you understand that "I" am the least of it.

Thank you,Eagle.I had not seen your post when I did my earlier reply.

Granted, i have "my" days...dont' we all??

I just adore my friend of whom I spoke. But it can be "too much", really. Yes, I tend to 'turn it inward' when others brag. i lost my mother at 18 so I never really got the opportunity to hear her brag about us....and now her grandchildren. I wonder how I would feel if my own mother would be doing the same??

And honestly, I AM doing very well. After all, I felt that God thought I was strong enough to handle opening myself up to the entire world about my childlessness via our CNBC website. NOT something that i'd ever dream i'd do!

I tend to gravitate toward women who have "other lives" besides their children. In fact, I have a new friend now! She is mid 30's, has two boys but she and i have soaping in common. We can talk for hours about it, too!! Funny enough, when she does not brag, I ask her about her boys. Guess it's safe for me in that sense.

So, thank you from one CNBC'er to another. I know you understand..that is what i needed I suppose. But of course to get others' perspectives is helpful. The maturity of my boomer acquaintenances here is wonderful!!

Di,

I have a friend who is in AA. Now mind you, I'm pretty much of a tee-totler myself...I rarely drink. But something happens when I'm with her--I make comments about alcohol and drugs that I wouldn't normally make and sometimes I even want to order a drink if we're out.

It seems that the harder I try to be 'sensitive' to her feelings the more I make stupid comments. It's like some one takes over my mouth!

I know it's not the same thing but your friend may be so aware of your feelings that she is trying too hard and says things that she regrets later.

Or maybe she's unaware, either way, this is a technique that I use when I want to change a relationship. It's the 'wouldn't it be nice' game. It goes like this. Wouldn't it be nice if my friend and I had a wonderful visit today? Wouldn't it be nice if we have so many things to talk about that touchy subjects never come up? Wouldn't it be nice if we laughed like school girls?...

It works for me...hope it will work for you, too.

Thank you, Jane!

Well, my friend started again on how wonderful her daughter is...so I simply said "I wish I had a daughter and grandchildren to talk about so much.

She stopped and said no more. Not even an "I'm sorry".

Jane
You expressed what I could not pinpoint about the dialogue that upsets you Di.
Antenna...wow
A true story.
Many years ago a friend told me she was reading Catherine Cookston novels.I had read some and gave my "opinion"
I said that I felt the storyline depended on someone being physically hurt....like having the hand and arm chopped off...(My friend was born minus her hand.)

Catherine Cookston wrote many books most with a theme of adversity and accident .BUT why did I say this?
I believe this is reiterapted by a common saying her "Don't talk about the Germans" this points out how by avoiding talking about something often we do just that.
I also believe your friend may be in some way sharing her daughter experiences feeling sincerely that this will help.As it sounds that it does not why not share that you like hearing about all of her life not just that one area.
That it may change but that at present you are feeling particulary bereft due to being childless.
I do pray that by airing your feelings and asking for answers you are coping.Remember this a true athentic friend will tell you the truth whilst loving you.Its ok if you have been angry with me in particular for neing authentic...I have a broad back....
Mountain Ash

Well, I don't think she NEEDED to say "I'm sorry", but at least she stopped.

Di, you have gotten such lovely, varied responses. Aren't you glad you asked? Boomer women rock!

See Di, I told you that would work for you, but I have to agree that this woman had nothing to apologize for.

It's 1:30 in the morning and I can't sleep so I am reading these posts and enjoying the friendships and the goodness of all the members.

I am fortunate to be the mother of a 19 year old and I feel blessed. I wish things were different for you and that you had been able to have had the child you so dearly wish for.

I can't help but make the connection between your circumstance and mine. While I have a child, I don't "have" the man I love. We dated for nearly 3 years but he has not gotten over the death of his wife and can't commit emotionally to me.

It hurts alot to not be able to be with him and yet I don't want anyone else. He'll forever be the love of my life.

As hard as it is to hear others speak of their wonderful husbands (knowing what I don't have) I wouldn't want them to stop talking about them just because of my circumstances. It's what makes them happy and its part of our friendship to build each other up and listen to what makes each of us feel good.

Donna

49erDonna, I can understand your problem, but from the other point of view. My husband died young and I found myself idolizing him, nearly making him into a Saint, which he wasn't. But for some reason whatever we felt for our mate, when they die it becomes an obsession of sorts. I would rather be with a divrced man that a widower for that reason. If you love him and have no time limit in mind hang in there and show him how wonderful you are and besides your here now and thats the important thing, but don't expect miracles. Oh, and no matter what he says about her, YOU refrain from making any comments, good or bad. Good luck!

I guess marrying a widower has it's whole set of problems. I used to belong to a very large forum that had a huge thread called WOW (wife of widower) and did those women ever have a rough time. I had never thought of it until I read what they went through with the grown kids, the ex inlaws, etc. It has to be tough.

Dianne, welcome home honey. You were missed. I hope to hear about your vacation in another post. Just seeing you here for the first time.

I remember women talking about having babies/giving birth. Our first two children were adopted so I couldn't relate. I didn't have any birth stories. I was so dang happy to have a family that it didn't bother me. So when they spoke of giving birth, I spoke of going to the airport to meet my babies.

I appreciate the different situations all of you have brought to light. Hopefully it will cause all of us to be more sensitive.

Gee, I would rather hear about someone's children, their fish (I have none), or their fifth million dollars (Don't have that either), or just about anything positive than to incessantly hear their numerous real and imagined problems.

I may feel left out if someone discusses something I know nothing about or focuses on something I don't have, but instead of being hurt, I enjoy the joy of others and it makes me happy to share it. I'm grateful they trusted me enough to share.

How can you can have a genuine conversation if the subjects you can discuss are limited? If you discuss only soap, someone who has failed at soap making will certinly be hurt. So what do you talk about?

Living in a PC world is difficult enough. Can't we be sensitive to the feelings of others without censoring every word we say? There seems to be no way to discuss anything without hurting someone. If you exclude what might possibly hurt someone, there's not much left.

I think we should take joy in who the person 'is' instead of focusing on what they say. Give me a good person and I will try to cope with the subjects of their conversations.

Onward.

Thank you Chatty Lady,

I really appreciate your thought.. and yes, I love him... I love hom more than I ever thought I would. I want to grow old with him.

I agree with you about the former spouses. Death does bring on a new perspective. I always thought it would be easier than dating a divorced man and all that baggage... but it is really not.

You want so much to help him through the emotions but you feel frustrated and unable to help. You are seemingly part of the problem - if he loves you, he is betraying her....

He and I didn't talk about her much the years we were dating - I don't think he was comfortable and I was not about to ask. Now, however, he has brought her up in converasation and is more at ease tallking about her.

I try to go with the flow. WHile some would suggest I move on and find someone else, I can't - he's too important to me as a friend to consider falling for someone else.

Thanks for your wisdom!

Donna

I have a friend who really wanted grandchildren for a while now. Her daughter and son-inlaw decided to adopt a little girl from China -- and you know what? She's every bit the doting Grandma that she would have been if the granddaughter was biological. She carries around a stack of pictures and has a bazillion granddaughter stories. It's not about blood; it's about love, and I'm happy to listen to "baby's first 300 words" and look at the stack of photos because she's my friend and I can tell how happy she is.

I wouldn't for a minute think of saying "But I've already seen 3 albums" because I'm honored that I'm a close enough part of her life that she would want to share her joy.

My mother, for some odd reason, will pull out a picture album of shots of herself that my dad took. I can't figure that out and stopped trying. Weird.

I think I would rather hear beautiful stories about someone's daughter/son than stories of them being in rehab from drugs.

My girlfriend was married to a man who lost his first wife and when he'd get angry with her, he'd pull out a picture of his dead wife and put it on the dresser. Gads.

Big deal, how childish...Its not like shes any real threat or that he can go running back to her. Perspective ladies, perspective.

For the record, one reason I posted this topic was to show ya'll the kinds of thought processes we CNBC'ers go through.

We are not mean-spirited people by any means. This is all a part of the education process. I realize ya'll have great feedback that is so much appreciated.

WE just think very differently. We have to put that 'hedge of protection' around our emotions. If you never had children but totally wanted them, you will totally understand. As we are in a world all our own, so are mothers. No one truly understand unless you've walked in someone's shoes.

It's a deep, deep loss that nothing (in the flesh, that is) can ever fill in this lifetime. We feel left out of the 'norm' of society. And when just about everywhere you look you see a pregnant belly, it's a very vivid reminder of what we never got to experience.

That is what truly makes me sad.

Thank you for explaining this. Having four children, I must stop to think of those who don't have any and want them so badly. I feel very sad for you and I'm sorry. I hope none of us sounded insensitive.

Di you are to be commended by us all because you put your truly heart felt feelings down for us to see and allow others to do he same, accepting all comments that are offered with such a spirit of generosity. You may not agree and I think we all try to be supportive of you even though most are mothers and grandmothers and not always in agreement with your words. I for one say "bravo" for your being able to take whatever comes comment wise, it shows your extreme intelligence....Hugs!

Thank you, ladies.

God called me to 'educate' others,especially women, who do not carry this 'thorn'of being a non-mother. I am doing my best to present our "situations" in a manner that does not come across as angry or bitter. Most of us believe that God allowed this for His divine purpose.

After all, have you ever known of anyone in your lifetime as a mother/grandmother who educated you about the childless? not many, I'm sure. God meant this for me to do,I believe.

No, I know I am not the only advocate but once God gives me a vision/job/calling, I must follow through.

I so appreciate all of you for hanging in here with me. I'm not bitter or upset; just trying to find where I fit in this world absolutely full of children and motherhood. Sometimes "mothers" are put on a pedestal, but I'll tell ya...we will all get to heaven the same way...Through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I don't usually discuss or respond to topics like this, but after reading the posts, & for some unknown reason to me, I am compelled to give my 2 cents worth here too. Di, I am so sorry that you are tormented by the fact you could not have a child of your own. Really, I truly am sorry! I wish you could find away to connect with your step-children and step-grandbaby(s). Maybe that would help ease your pain. If I read correctly, Eagleheart has not had children neither, and I can almost feel her joy and pride when she talks about her step granddaughter......and it makes me smile from ear to ear when I read about her happiness with this child. I have never been pregnant, nor had a child. Nor do I have step-children or step-grandchildren. I do not worry about growing old & alone.... well maybe just a little about the old part. I am not upset when women or men talk about their kids and grandkids. I am happy for them! Cousins (and friends) in my family are becoming grandparents all the time now. There is always a baby to hold when we get together. I am around new babies allot. I get invited to baby showers, baptisms, b'day parties all the time, and I go to them because I want to share in their joy and.......because there is CAKE! I wish you could find away to make peace with yourself for not having a baby. You are beating yourself up mentally because you think your body has failed you. Like that saying goes..."God has a bigger dream for you than you could ever dream for yourself." And...if I have said something here that has hurt you or offended you, I am truly sorry...really. I just want you to be happy so darn bad! Life is grand!