Holiday Violence...
Posted by: chatty lady
Holiday Violence... - 12/06/07 10:40 PM
I have been reading about the shooting that took place yesterday in that Omaha mall. I can't even fantom the terror those people felt, and the relatives who knew they had family shopping there. Imagine sitting at home or being at work and getting the news your loved one had been killed ramdomly by a disturbed young sniper, who then killed himself. I was wondering what you think, is this type of killing worse than serial killings or are they the same???
Posted by: Casey
Re: Holiday Violence... - 12/06/07 11:25 PM
all the same...including killing in someone's name, such as a country, a god....
Casey
(simply my opinion)
Posted by: Anno
Re: Holiday Violence... - 12/07/07 12:26 AM
I don't think any murder can be worse or better - just different in why they were committed. As a society, I believe we do a poor job of addressing mental health - here in the US, and from the little I know, around the world.
Posted by: Dotsie
Re: Holiday Violence... - 12/07/07 09:12 PM
Murder is murder.
Anno, I agree with you on the mental illness topic. I think anger management classes should be taught from a very early age. And with each passing grade, they should be addressed again with a more sophisticated curriculum as the kids age. If they learn what's appropriate from an early age, maybe they will think twice.
Posted by: chatty lady
Re: Holiday Violence... - 12/07/07 11:17 PM
He was only nineteen and his parents had thrown him out of the house a year earlier, I wonder if they couldn't have gotten him so sort of help before giving up on him? But I wasn't there so am no one to judge anyone. That is just so sad, for him, his parents, and the VICTIMS and their families. I can't even imagine what they are feeling.
I guarantee that it will be revealed that this young man experienced sexual abuse in his childhood. There is not enough help in this world! He said he did not want to be a "burden" and that he was a "disappointment." I actually have empathy for those feelings of despair. Women tend to turn their pain inward; men tend toward outward aggression. He did both. I believe he never learned what was appropriate or not. It does not sound like he had role models. Anger management in this case is like putting a band-aid on an amputated leg. His troubled mind and heavy heart went far deeper than anger. I also guarantee that his so-called parents who "kicked him out" exhibited their anger on him. The media says, "He was estranged from his step-father" like it was the young man's fault. Ok, how about, "The step-father was estranged from his step-son." I can imagine the feelings of worthlessness and abandonment and despair of this 19 year old. I can't imagine taking it out on others. There are so many victims in this terrible tragedy. There are many suicide prevention hotlines, websites, community programs, training, (even my mere website has signs of suicide to look for) but I tell you no one is listening! Yes, he got "famous" for killing. Do you think anyone would have noticed if one young man from one small town would have silently shot himself to death? Evidently, this boy was never noticed, not known, except in the most negative manner, and he did this to make himself known. What an awful way to seek attention. Perhaps he knew that no one would care if he died, so he shot others. Now we care. But no one would have made a single note if a single kid took a single shot at his brain on his own last sad day in December. I am so sad and mad about this.
Posted by: jabber
Heartbreaking... - 12/08/07 02:53 PM
Life is sweet and sour. Life is wonderful and heartbreaking.
That's the way it is. I don't think anyone can understand
how another person feels, until they experience whatever caused the emotions they're poundering. Why people kill other people, is way beyond comprehension. Why people abuse another living creature, is way beyond comprehension. Go figure????
It's true. We as sensible human beings try to make sense of senseless activities, and there's just no making sense of it. I know my post sounded more like a lecture than a contribution.
Posted by: celtic_flame
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/08/07 11:03 PM
its a fair point princess, tramu creates extreem strange behaviour some as you say just towards the self, bad enough and others include other people.
Thers an afule lot of stuff needing put to right in this world before thse types of events stop happening, are we trying yet?
Posted by: Dotsie
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/09/07 01:05 AM
While walking through the mall today with my son, I thought about the mall shooting and got chills. I'm sure many others across the country are doing the same.
We've had two shootings at our local mall. One teacher was shot and killed in the garage, and anothe rperson was shot inside the mall. I live in a very nice neighborhood. It's crazy, but since those shootings, I've often walked the amll wondering who had guns on them. I'm sure there are more than we care to think about. That's why I mnd my own business and speak pleasantly to others. Well, it's not the only reason, but it helps.
Wow, Dotsie, that's too close for comfort. As far as the 19 year old killer, I think there is a point of conscious activity and a point of no return. If I may, I'd like to relate this to my own suicide attempts at his age. It was at this time of year. I thought I'd quietly take pills, and leave others out of my attempt. While driving to the motel to take the pills there, I thought about veering over the line and letting a semi hit me head on. Then I made the conscious choice not to involve others; maybe the driver had a family he was gong home to for Christmas. Using my own experience at that age as a frame of reference, I can assume that he made the conscious choice to commit suicide as well as homicide, and then, in the suicidal "trance" (an actual psych term" he got to the point of no return whereby he could not, would not change his mind.
Posted by: chatty lady
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/09/07 08:29 PM
A person being sad and desperate enough to want to end his or her life is tragic in itself but why, oh Lord why, do they have to take innocent unsuspecting people with them, people who loved life and wanted to live...It is the Devil at his best!
We have a popular church here in Colorado Springs called "New Life." It has a congregation of 10,000. Right now a gunman is holding people hostage in the church. As he entered the church this morning, he was shooting people in the parking lot. Last night a missionary church was hit by a gunman who shot 2 people, here in CO Springs. What is going on?
Posted by: dancer9
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/09/07 11:13 PM
Everyone has said it, we make mental illness a stigma, we wash our hands of addicts and then we wonder why there are those that feel cut off from society? Why are there those that are poorly socialized? We can't keep hiding from those that suffer from things we don't understand: Mental Illness and Addiction, or it will find us in such a way that there is no turning back! It's a hard lesson to learn and I could be next as a victim, but I know that we as a society can do much more for those suffering from unpopular illnesses!
What was this boy addicted to? What illness was ignored by those who were supposed to take responsibility for him? It is always a story like that. If this boy was thrown out of his home, he slipped through the cracks of societies net for those who are suffering from something, and was able to blow up all over our hearts. It's just so sad. I, too, fear for my family, but I don't think we can say that this person was pure evil when he was born, evil found him,...how?
dancer
Yes, that is true dancer. My counselor told me: "You were not born insane. You were born sane to an insane family." She also told me that children are born to expect to give and receive love, period. The young man perhaps was not addicted to a substance, but to a need: the need to give and receive love. He craved it. And he got it in the form of post-humous attention, at the expense of many others.
Posted by: gims
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/10/07 03:30 PM
The saddest thing to me is the possibility of someone saying or doing the one thing to/for these people that would have made a difference.
For me, being taught suicide is the unforgivable sin (I now know this is incorrect) was my safeguard - a scare tactic. But, had someone taken a real interest in me, not only might I have had a loving safeguard, but years of misery could have been avoided. (I only speak of this, as Princess has, because it was my experience.) I've come to realize how unlovable I was and can excuse everyone who didn't take the time, but I honestly think it would have only taken one person to make my life so different.
We are all connected, whether we like it or not. Even remote throws effect us through the ripples.
As for the violence being a "holiday" thing... is it really?
Posted by: Di
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/10/07 04:24 PM
This is why I am thankful DH and I stay INDOORS as much as possible. We do not go to malls, church, stores (except for groceries, incidentals etc.) We do not drive at night anymore etc.
We have created our own environment at home...thank God for the internet!!
Posted by: ladyjane
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/10/07 05:09 PM
There's a fine line between being cautious and becoming a recluse and paranoid. Staying indoors indefinitely is sure way to drive yourself nuts and be alone with one's thoughts. I do think that the holidays strike a raw nerve in many people and some go over the edge if they were already headed that way.
Posted by: Edelweiss
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/10/07 06:02 PM
Have surveys in America found a correlation with these insane assassinations and being addicted to violent computer games?
They have in Germany.
I believe authorities have to get to the root of the problem. These sick murder games should be banned. Just watching one for 5 minutes made my stomach turn, and these kids do it daily hours on end. Something in their head has to snap. Psychiatrists say these people confuse their realities, and these games isolate, cause aggression, and diminish any conception of the value of life.
Why do parents allow this? And I know of no politician in Germany or America that has this topic in his/her campaign. Why? Why? Why?
Posted by: dancer9
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/10/07 06:23 PM
Hannelore,
I have to agree with you regarding the games and the entertainment that affect young people in a deep way causing a lot of the problem.
As an entertainer, I know that young people are trying so hard to find an idenity in something OTHER than themselves! They are afraid so they idolize this or that, a person or a game, or anything they can wrap themselves around that gives them a feeling of belonging.
The problem is that we offer them so many negative things to wrap their lives around! Lyrics DO affect the listener and this is coming from a singer who should want NOT to be censored! I believe that these kids that act like sheep, and I do mean sheep, I've seen them, have to be guided in a better direction and have better role models! It's easy to get a "hit," using shock lyrics or shock photos or shock in your video game so people do it! The bigger the shock, the more the teen or young person who is not satisfied by their lives with wrap around it! We, as performers, KNOW this! I think it is our responsibility and the responsibility of those designing games and programs, to set up some role models for these desperate young people looking for idenity to latch onto! I've seen them, groupies for games, bands, Television shows, hooking into whatever violence is handed to them because it makes them "belong," and it takes them away from being a child, (in their minds,) and out of their parents world.
We must pull them back in and an artist has his/her responsibility, I believe, to help that to happen!
It maddens me to see what some of my peers will release just for attention and the money they can make. They even design their music to affect audiences in the sexual parts of their bodies, and we can do it, believe me! A good bass and a good drum will make your audience go straight to the sexual in a min.!
There is a science to entertainment, it's not just a dream world. We know what we are doing, if we are good. We need to police each other to make things better.
As to other countries putting this stuff out, we as American artists and designers cannot stop it. Other countries do flood our stores with this sort of negative game and music, etc... It's not right.
My opinion,
dancer9
Gimster, I am sorry for your experience. I speak openly about my experience in part to help others see that they are not alone. Here is something I wrote about suicide and sin: "I worried about the fate of my soul, if indeed I had a soul. Parochial school taught me that it was a sin to commit suicide, so I would burn in hell. Surely, my soul was unworthy of any place other than hellfire and damnation." The desire to end the pain may become greater than the call to not sin. HL brings up a very good question.
Posted by: gims
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/11/07 01:25 AM
Princess, I was taught the same thing, except it was the "unforgivable sin" (which I know is not true, now). I also picked up the "unworthiness," and I tried to compensate for that by pulling away from life. I've just recently shared my S thoughts, first to my favorite aunt, then to a sister, then another sister, then some friends (who helped me by letting me talk it out)... since I've opened up, it has come easier to talk about... I doubt I'd speak of it at all if I still had those d*** urges. Rarely does that cold steel in my husband's draw call my name - I'd like to think I've conquered the c*** of it, but the thoughts still come. I just manage them better. I honestly can't believe I'm laying this out here for any and all to see. It's a little liberating, though.
Posted by: jabber
Sensitive, kind and caring... - 12/11/07 05:34 PM
Princess,
Your posts are a joy. I see you as a sensitive, smart,
caring person. Your posts always contribute to whatever discussion they join.
Prayers and blessings... A really big fan...
Posted by: Princess Lenora
Re: Sensitive, kind and caring... - 12/11/07 06:06 PM
Wow, Bonnie, thank you so much. Sometimes I think I am too self-absorbed and that I don't reach out to others enough. So your comment means a lot to me. Have you all heard about the shootings at New Life Church in Colorado Springs? That's right around the corner from me. 2 daughters were killed from the same family, and their father was shot. Imagine the pain of that family, the mother to learn that her daughters are dead and her husband is in the hospital with gun shot wounds. I did not know that churches needed security. This mega church has armed security. A trained police officer on volunteer duty as security at the church that morning shot the suspect before he could re-load his firearm in the sanctuary. Hard to take this in. Gimster, it is liberating to reveal your secrets, and discharge the power secrets hold over you. Revealing your secrets gives you back your power, rather than hiding in shame and/or stigma. Also, you mentioned hypnotherapy in another forum to remember your childhood. As a (former) social worker who has done counseling, I would like to caution you that this is not a favored means of therapy. It is far better to take therapy in small, weekly or bi-weekly doses, so that your body, mind, spirit has time to process the information. Therapy is an evolving process, not a one-shot deal.
Posted by: chatty lady
Re: Sensitive, kind and caring... - 12/11/07 10:47 PM
Princess and Gimster, Bravo for your honesty. But Gimster, I find myself scratching my head at something you said above, if I may ask you, "how do you know now that suicide is not the unforgivable sin as we were taught in Catholic school?" When I see your answer, I will explain the reason for my question...
Posted by: Princess Lenora
Re: Sensitive, kind and caring... - 12/12/07 12:22 AM
In Colorado Springs, the media revealed today that the gunman at the church who killed 2 teenage girls and wounded others, killed himself before being apprehended by the security guard. The gunman was 24.
Posted by: gims
Re: Sensitive, kind and caring... - 12/12/07 12:53 AM
The way I understood it was, if you commit suicide, you have no opportunity to ask forgiveness, even before the act. But according to scripture, all sins are pardonable, except one ... as you see below, it is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men
Now, is it that you are never forgiven if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Personally, true Christians can't do so, but if one was to and repented, I believe they are forgiven. It is if they do it over and over and over again, and it is evident that it is in their heart, they will not be forgiven. Someone with a theologian background could probably explain it much better than I, but I gave it my best shot.
Posted by: ladyjane
Re: Sensitive, kind and caring... - 12/12/07 12:16 PM
There are varied views on this but gimster quoted the scripture above and if you believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, then that's the answer....it doesn't matter what any priest, preacher or anyone else dreamed up for their own teachings. The Bible is either truth or it's not! (I believe it is!)
Posted by: dancer9
Re: Sensitive, kind and caring... - 12/13/07 01:03 AM
Gimster, As someone who went through a huge amount of cognitive therapy AND who was hypnotised by a psychiatrist when retrieving memories for a murder trial when I was a witness, I must say that Princess Lenora could not be more correct! She is spot on!
You must reveal things to yourself in a way that you can handle them and in the time it take YOU to feel okay about it. It is a hard thing to do, perhaps the hardest thing I ever did in my life, and it was dangerous when I was pushed. It is never good to push.
The mind will remember as it feels it can. It will go at it's own pace if you allow it.
Please take special care and keep us informed as to how you are?
Warmest regards,
dancer9
Posted by: dancer9
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/13/07 01:08 AM
Gimster, I know of what you speak and I am someone who had to work on her demons.
I wanted to tell you how good it is to hear your progress and how proud I am to see how far you have come! It gives me hope and heart to hear someone like you say how they are doing! You are moving along and that is a beautiful thing!
Thank you for sharing your progress and I hope you will continue to do so. It gives me, and others, hope for all of those who need to do the sort of thing you are doing.
dancer9
Posted by: gims
Re: Heartbreaking... - 12/13/07 03:07 AM
dancer, you're a jewel... I wish I could see in my post what you see.
blessings...
Posted by: Princess Lenora
Re: Sensitive, kind and caring... - 12/15/07 12:52 AM
Gimster, I realize you are a very private person. I just wanted you to know that I am trust worthy. If there is something you want to talk about, you can always PM me. I think you don't have an email, else I would offer via PM. Anyway, I am always open to talk, and confidential, just because I do care! L, PL
Posted by: gims
Re: Sensitive, kind and caring... - 12/15/07 06:50 AM
I emailed you, Princess.
Posted by: Wisdom&Life
No will listen to warnings - 12/18/07 03:10 AM
I will tell you all what has been happening in my family with my 18 year old daughter who desperately needs help. Only problem is, I can't do anything about it because she is 18 years old.
I have another thread explaining a bit more of what is going on
with my daughter Sofia. She is pregnant now and is due to have her baby in February. I am telling you, she flip flops so much. She has said things like, "I hate this baby" "This baby has ruined my life" But she doesn't want to pursue adoption. Plus, this boys who got her pregnant in the first place is a total jerk. He doesn't talk to her, nor does he even look at her. But his mommy feels so sorry for him and understands why he doesn't at least tried hard to get a job. You see, poor baby is worried if he is going to end up in jail or not because he just can't seem to find the time between sleeping and playing video games, to do his community service. Which he has to do because of a reckess driving charge. I am not kidding. His mom wasted no time and made sure he registered as the dad of this baby, which means, he would have to give consent for adoption, in VA. As his mommy told me, hell will freeze over before that happens. IMO, I smell a scam. These people know how to work the system. I told my daughter I had a way to help her with adoption, but I couldn't tell her unless she decides to do it. Unfortunately, she would have to decide that while the baby is still in-vitro.
Anyhow, she is so depressed and at some time even expressed how she hates her life and doesn't want to live anymore. Then I found out she was eating like no tomorrow and then purging. I became extremely concerned, for both her and the baby. I called Social Services, in the hopes they would provide some help. I even explained to them how she can be manipulating. Want to hear the wonderful results? There is nothing they can do about this because she told them she was fine. I told the Social Worker that Sofia was manipulating her and she is good at that. I've known my daughter all her life, I know this!!! The response, "well, we told her we had all these resources for her and all she had to do was call and ask." Sofia has a hard time making her own Dr. appt and needs to be reminded that she is 18 and no one else can do this for her. She is not in the habit of taking any initiative. I couldn't even talk to her dr. without permission, so I can give them some of her history. She's has ovarian problems before and two surgeries. They didn't even want to talk to me, because she is 18.
So now, I have our therapist here, who has treated Sofia for 4 years and knows her very well. He has been trying to get a hold of this Social Worker for 2 weeks now. I am praying she is on vacation and not just ignoring his messages. He is trying to help get Sofia the help she needs, and he has the clout to do this. Besides, when Sofia came here for Thanksgiving, she went and saw him and signed a written permission form for this therapist to try to get her, at least temporarily, on disability. I am so frustrated because I see post-partum depression happening and I see a possible crime ready to happen. BUT NO ONE WILL LISTEN TO ME! I even called a lawyer and asked for some advise. The same bull.
I agree, there needs to be something done with mental health and some laws need to be amended as far as what really qualifies as an adult. Sofia is no adult and it's very hard for me to say these things about my only child. But facts are facts and solutions are not found without getting to the root of the problem.
I didn't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I wanted to explain my experience. I wanted to give some insight as to why this boy didn't get the help he needed. Especially if he was 18, forget it. He would've had to have been arrested and court ordered to go get help. Otherwise, it would have to be voluntary. At least it is that way here in VA. Bottom line, would if someone tried to help these shooters both in CO and Omaha? Only to be told there is nothing to be done and act as if these people were just normal ordinary, clear thinking, adults.
Understand, I've tried to encourage her to get going and do what she needs to do. It's like beating a dead horse, plus she just hangs up on me. One good thing, she did decide to move in with this boys dad and stepmom. They are nice people. But she can't stay there forever.
I would love to present something like this to the VA Assembly, but I do not know where to start. Should I go to my delegate in my district and talk to him? I only know one thing, this has to stop and some laws need to be amended in a bad way. Or else we will all suffer eventually!
Whew, I feel better now.
I love you all alot!
Cathi
Posted by: orchid
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/18/07 05:11 AM
Quote:
I didn't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I wanted to explain my experience. I wanted to give some insight as to why this boy didn't get the help he needed. Especially if he was 18, forget it. He would've had to have been arrested and court ordered to go get help. Otherwise, it would have to be voluntary. At least it is that way here in VA. Bottom line, would if someone tried to help these shooters both in CO and Omaha? Only to be told there is nothing to be done and act as if these people were just normal ordinary, clear thinking, adults.
Understand, I've tried to encourage her to get going and do what she needs to do. It's like beating a dead horse, plus she just hangs up on me. One good thing, she did decide to move in with this boys dad and stepmom. They are nice people. But she can't stay there forever.
But the question is even if this boy was gently coerced into psychiatric/counselling help, if he was not receptive to being helped..any amount of counselling will not help.
Sounds like he needed help several years ago, early intervention by a suppportive adult to help him understand consequences, etc.
This must be quite tough to see your daughter undergo all this plus a pregnancy. Right now she probably thinks you're just controlling her future by badgering her (sorry)...of course, she has run over to another safe cocoon.
She needs alot of support to learn to understand how to plan her future and options, if she continues to carry her baby. Has she ever held down a job or how far has she finished her schooling?
Posted by: Princess Lenora
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/18/07 02:41 PM
Cathi, I am so sorry for the seemingly impossible situation you are in. I have no comments or answers, just that you have a great deal on your shoulders.
Posted by: Wisdom&Life
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/18/07 05:28 PM
Quote:
This must be quite tough to see your daughter undergo all this plus a pregnancy. Right now she probably thinks you're just controlling her future by badgering her (sorry)...of course, she has run over to another safe cocoon.
No need to say sorry, I know that's what she thinks. It's not my intention, but this is how she is viewing me. As for job skills and education. No, she doesn't have the tools to be on her own and take care of a baby. Before she met this boy, I was helping her get the tools she needed and she was doing quite well. In fact, I remember how relieved I felt that finally she was making progress. She was even happy and cheerful. But she met this boy on myspace and he romanced her and convinced her to leave home and come to him. We tried to tell her this was a mistake. We reasoned with her and told her we were not trying to stop her from moving. We only advised her to wait awhile before going there. In the meantime, get her GED, get her learners permit, save some money. Then if she felt the need to go there, we would support that decision and even help her get started. I don't think that was unreasonable on our part.
Now this boy is tired of her (which we saw it coming), and she is worse emotionally than she was ever before. She is being treated worse than her dad and I ever could. I just hope she doesn't do anything to hurt the baby after she is born. I see this coming and no one will listen or at least do something to try to prevent this. We are in a society who is reactive rather than pro-active.
As for the shooter, we don't know what was done about the shooter. Maybe no one tried to help him and just brushed him off. We don't know for sure. Bottom line, one can warn authorities all they want, even if it's a loved one, but nothing will be done unless something happens.
Princess Lenora, thanks and there is nothing one can say or do. I have had to leave this totally in God's Hands.
I agree, some laws need to be changed in regards to mental health. I think Tipper Gore, who suffers from depression herself, wanted to get involved in raising awareness with mental health. Had her husband been elected President, I think that would have been her cause.
Have a great day!
I love you all alot!
Cathi
Posted by: jawjaw
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/18/07 06:45 PM
Cathi,
I haven't been on the boards much here lately, but was aware of this situation since you and I correspond. I want to tell you that I'm holding you and your family close and in prayer. It sounds to me as if you all are doing all you can, and I know it breaks your heart to feel, and to be, so helpless in this situation.
So much of the "decisions" to be made are the responsibility of the daughter, and as you've stated, she really isn't mature enough to do this without help. God love her, and you both for trying so hard to show her there IS a way...she DOES have options. I applaud you both for not giving up on your child.
Please know that if some of us don't post, it isn't because we are not sharing in the journey, but it is, sometimes, because we simply don't have the words. You are in our hearts though, and so is your daughter.
Whenever you can, let us know how things are progressing.
Much love to you, JJ
Posted by: dancer9
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/18/07 06:53 PM
Cathy, Optimumsteps,
I read your posts and much has been said that is wise already. I agree with a lot the others have said. Let me say, then, that I am so very sorry that this is a situation you have to deal with! I think, from my work with young women her age, that she will come home and probably soon. (She is not home yet, is she?) Is this what you would like to see happen? You have a good plan for her and I can tell you that these kids don't make lasting relationships on "myspace."
Whatever she is running from needs to be addressed. Is she full of fear? There is a reason she is running and she must face that in order to have her parents whom she needs so very much.
I had a baby very young, a date rape, that resulted in a baby. I know what it feels like to be afraid and not ready in the least for a baby. Dealing with it can be heart breaking, for her.
I wish the best for you, and for her, who will shoulder this all of her life! She will, sooner or later, straighten out, if the statistics are right, for her baby. Most young women DO try to straighten out when their babies are born and with parents on their side, they can do it.
It was harder for me with hardly any parental support but I did it.
I am so sorry, please stay strong and that means feeling the pain now and again! I hope for the best and keep you in my thoughts.
dancer9
Posted by: dancer9
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/18/07 09:47 PM
Cathi, Being a parent myself, from what I can see, you are doing all you can.
Please don't get down on yourself during this. Our kids come home, they are just like toddlers, they go as far as they can on their own and then come running back when they can't go any further!
dancer9
Posted by: chatty lady
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/18/07 11:07 PM
It all comes down to we do the best that we can do. We give them life, we nurture and love them without faltering. But then the time comes when they must become adults, do the nurturing themselves and love themselves. We are always there in the background waiting to catch them when they fall, and fall most will probably do. Then its just wait!!! As I wait to see if my fallen child will come to his senses and come home to me, where all will be forgotten and forgiven...Its a waiting game Cathi.
Or as my wonderful 87 year old mother would say, "Its a crap shoot Cathi, just roll the dice of parenthood and wait to see whether its a seven or craps." My mom's a real pistol.
Posted by: dancer9
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/18/07 11:52 PM
Cathi,
Chatty is wise in her words. I have heard that from those older than me before and applied it to my son, and it's true!
I wish you great luck.
dancer
Posted by: Wisdom&Life
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/19/07 01:48 AM
Oh wow thanks! I know it's a waiting game and really I am handling this better now than I did when this whole situation sprang up on us.
Actually, I told my story for the benefit of answering the question of why these shooters didn't get the help they needed in order to prevent these tragedies. I wanted to illustrate the point of our bureaucracy and how no one would've done anything about this. In fact, it seems there is a popular saying now, "there's nothing we can do".
I'll give you an example here of what I am trying to say. Let's say you know someone, whether it is a relative, a co-worker or even friend. You notice they are showing signs of what those who have committed violence, whether it's a shooting at a school, workplace, mall, etc... You notice the person you know has these signs these killers were known to have before they commit these crimes. Well, you want to at least try to contact someone in authority who can do something about it. Like a therapist, only to be told, " There is nothing we can do unless something happens.” Hello, that “something happens” is usually those shootouts!
A friend of mine tried desperately to get her sister, who is a schizophrenic help. No can do. Her sister had to volunteer to get help. How do you convince a schizophrenic to check herself in, when she didn’t think she had a problem. My friend at her wits end had to bribe her into getting the help. Once she got the help and was put on proper medication, she was a totally different person.
This is the point I was trying to get across because this question was raised.
Honestly, my husband and I are coping much better and I am seeing a therapist once a week. I even found a great church with a support group for someone in my situation. Ironically, our therapist is/was Sofia's therapist for 4 years. He is trying to help as well. He has told both me and Richard to take it easy and save our energy for possibly bigger things to come.
I really didn't want to hi-jack the thread, I really wanted to give my 2 cents worth on the matter as to why these guys didn't get the help they really needed. As well as to state how much I am in agreement with the Presidential Candidates not giving this issue a second thought.
I love you all alot and Gimster, I am so sorry for what you are going through. Hypnosis was suggested for me and I have to say I didn't want it. I guess it's the paranoid part of me, I would be opening my mind up to so many suggestions. That's my take on hypnosis, not wanting to take the chance of being in the middle of work and all of a sudden I have the urge to stand on top of my desk and doing the hokey pokey. I want to point out another thing and I might as well while we are on this subject Gimster. Even though my situation has been shocking and tragic and even many times I fear for my child. At the same time, I can't think of a time when I was closer to God than I feel I am now. I can't think of another time I have learned some valuable lessons than I have in the past 7 months. I believe this should be a one step at a time process as well. Take the time and nurture each step and relish it. I promise you, it will not only be effective, but long lasting. I really will hold you in my prayers.
Dancer, I'm sorry you had to go through all of that, it must've been really rough. I agree, so much wisdom here.
Chatster, my friend, I love your mom and wow, talk about wisdom. Thanks for sharing, very handy to know this.
Your majesty, don't worry, I know you're there with me and I love you for it. Well, I'd love you anyway *wink*!
Cheers,
Cathi
Posted by: Princess Lenora
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/19/07 02:18 AM
I don't mean to ignore what everyone else is saying. I do want to acknowledge to Dancer that what you shared on this thread is HUGE to live through. You have a lot of perspectives. Cathi, I know what you mean that these challenges create opportunities to grow and understand, but it's hard when you are going through the challenges (for lack of a better word.)
Posted by: Wisdom&Life
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/19/07 06:24 PM
You are not kidding Princess. It is very difficult and takes all the strength anyone can muster to keep faith and hang in there. I think of what the Bible says about putting gold through the fire. When the gold comes out of the fire, that is when it is pure. God gave us that analogy in order to let us know there is hope.
Cheers,
Cathi
Posted by: Dotsie
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/19/07 09:17 PM
Cathi, you have been a good enough mother. Don't doubt that for a second. What's happened to your daughter is out of your control. We can't be with them 24/7, though at times we all wish we could.
I am grateful you and hubby are getting support for this. Also cool that you are in a support group through your church community. You are doing everything you can. Please be patient. Time will tell if she comes running to you when the baby is born. Just be prepared if it does.
Also, I've seen two young gals have babies too young. In both cases, it was exactly what they needed to get themselves in shape. Granted, it wasn't easy. They did indeed take the hard route by getting pregnant out of wedlock, but we all do things differently. We don't all walk the same path. Keep the faith, and remember that your freinds are praying for you and her, and the health of hte dear sweet little one growing inside her...whom I'm sure will steal your heart away.
Posted by: dancer9
Re: No will listen to warnings - 12/20/07 12:15 AM
Yes, Cathi, as Dotsie said, it will work itself out!
I had a too young pregnancy and I made it. I did get an education, I worked it all out and made it to the otherside.
If I may say one thing, Cathi, as a woman who was there while still a girl:
Make sure your daughter gets therapy no matter what she decided about the baby! DON'T let her try to go it without it. I needed it so badly but I muscled on and went without.
I know of what I speak. I got pregnant and everyone thought I was "over." I was too young and had no direction to turn. ( It was a date rape before there were "date rape," laws.) I made it my business to get my school done and to go on to uUniversity but I needed help, oh yes, I needed the wise ones in my life to MAKE me see reason! I thank them for it now. My career has been mind boggling successful for even a woman who came from a great back ground! ANYTHING is possible and anything can happen.
dancer9