Brokeback Mountain

Ok. Brokeback Mountain is a movie, not exactly an event. Except there's been so much press and commentary about the movie, that it's become an event. So I'm interested in what all you women who've seen the movie think about it.

MaryE, I still haven't seen it. It's on my list. I'm interested in hearing what boomer women ahve to say also.

Well, I'll jump in on this. I saw Brokeback Mountain and am really glad I did. For all the hype about it being a 'gay love story', it simply is a love story.

The movie didn't show anything that was a shocker as far as nudity or sex. It was done very discreetly.

The story focuses on how they met, had an affair then moves ahead many, many years in the future and they set a time to visit each other and find that the attraction is still there. However, they are both married with families.

I don't want to go on much more for those who haven't seen it but it is beautiful and you could have heard a pin drop throughout the theater during the entire movie. It is so beautifully written and acted that at the end I saw people leaving crying, along with myself, and many just standing not saying anything.

It is simply a beautiful, beautiful film and deserves the credit they are getting.

Hope that helps.
Sandpiper

I haven't seen the movie. Does it make homosexuality seem natural and alright? Does it promote the act of homosexuality and make a same sex relationship seem OK or is it just a well written story?

In the past I would have refused to pay to see a movie I consider promoting something I know God hates, but I would pay to see a murder mystery and I watch CSI and other shows and movies about sex out of marriage and violence so what's the difference?? God hates murder and violence, drinking and drugs to excess and sex out of marriage too.

It seems that love is a very good thing but rules to live by are so vital to our safety and well being. God loves us so much that He sets boundaries for us just like we do for our children because we love them.

I don't know if I will go see the movie or not. Probably not.

I've wanted to see this movie but my husband refuses to go with me. I guess I'll have to wait until it comes out on DVD.

My daughter saw it and didn't like it all that much but she and I have differing views on movies. She cried during In Her Shoes, which baffled me.

I have a question about homosexuality. Why do the majority of gay men talk with a lisp? Female homosexuals don't. I've had a few gay male friends but could never work up the nerve to ask them and some of them don't talk that way but have very feminine characteristics.

Has anyone seen 'The Notebook' with Jim Garner? I cry copiously every time I see it and I've watched it 3 times!!

Dianne, I've never met a gay man with a lisp, so can't help you on that one.

I also understand about our children and our differing views. My daughter absolutely loves "American Beauty". I like it but am not madly in love with it. She is the one who talked me into going to see Brokeback Mountain. I didn't get to go with her the first time she saw it, but she went with me to see it. We both cried during the last half.

The movie does not make homosexuality seem any way except that they find they have something that keeps compelling them to meet with each other once a year. It does not promote homosexuality or same sex relationships. Matter of fact both men are married throughout most of the film.

I think it is just a very well written love story that shows how you do not pick whom you fall in love with. However, they never say they are in love with each other. They, matter of fact, struggle with this situation throughout the entire film. It really is a great film and on that should touch on the heart about two people caught in a situation they do not know how to end.

Hope that helps.
Sandpiper

I am sorry, that last part was in response to Number 5's questions. Sorry to have not put your name in the other post, number 5.

Sandpiper

Dianne,

I've wondered that myself! Could it be an adopted characteristic based on the idea that to be feminine the male has to 'sound' (to their thinking) feminine?? It seems in the same sex situation there is a 'male' and a 'female'. Why is that??!! It's almost as if the couple is trying to imitate a heterosexual relationship. Its all very confusing to me.

Or, maybe in that culture the tongue thrust is a sexual symbol??? Don't want to be gross,,,

Thank you, Sandpiper.
I love stories with a twist. It sounds like a movie I would enjoy very much.

Haven't seen either one, gee guess I need to get out more....LOL

I haven't seen that movie, but I want to.

I've had a lot of gay male friends over the years. I don't think any of them spoke with a lisp. I've always thought that was some sort of a stereotype. I went to my senior prom with a guy who was gay, although I didn't know it at the time. You would never have known by looking. He was one of the best looking boys I ever went out with. I was a lot more innocent in 1963 than I am now!

I don't mean to cover the Don Knotts thread but I find this topic of homosexuality interesting.

When I was young it was called "queer" and we had these stupid rules that if you wore green or pink on Thursday, you were a queer. The word gay didn't turn up until years later.

My former BIL seemed somewhat feminine in high school. He was always in school plays and chorus and didn't wear Levi's like the other guys but dress pants. He was heavily involved in church activities and my sister's only requirement in a future husband was that he was a Christian.

He was somewhat dramatic and flamboyant but he could make me laugh harder than anyone. We used to torment each other on family trips.

But, he led a double life and was involved in sex groups with same sex and different sex and ended up HIV. It all went downhill after that.

In the 60's, we never really thought or believed that people were gay. Of course, back then they had to keep it a secret while today, it's almost a prideful thing.

I know gay men who are very masculine and you would never know. I know gay men who walk like women and are very feminine in their talk and walk.

I don't judge gay people. I had grown so tired of it while growing up in a family that judged everyone and I refuse to do it anymore. I'm just curious about some of these things.

I don't look at being gay as any different than being an alcoholic or a drug addict or an overeater. In my opinion there is something heinous about being in NAMBLA or being a pedaphile. Its funny how we just can't keep from totem-poling sins. These things are all issues that people struggle with, maybe their thorn in the flesh, to see if they have the ability to trust God to help them overcome their affliction.

As long as I live I will

Oops! As long as I live I will believe that sin against your own body or someone else's is worse than any other and to do things that are unnatural to it in the realm of procreation and even in the arena of sexual pleasure, seems to be very unnatural.

To me a same sex partner is as much an enabler and a codependent as a married partner to an alcoholic or drug user.

I was glad to see that it did not get the Oscar for Best Picture. I read that it had only grossed $32 Million and that is peanuts in Hollywood.

Christina - Did you like the movie? I was not surprised it didn't win the Oscar for Best Picture. Crash was as safe a bet as the Oscar could do and still be considered controversal. I guess that film was about race relations in Los Angeles.

I think the amount grossed is considered pretty good for an independent film. I'm not sure what it takes for a film made by a regular company to be considered successful. Does anyone know the amount.

Anyway, I thought the entire evening was predictable, didn't you?

Sandpiper

I haven't seen Brokeback Mountain and doubt that I will. I don't particularly like the acting of Heath Ledger for starters and I am not so sure that this movie does not promote homosexuality even though the producers say that it does not. I'll go on record as saying that I don't believe that homosexuality is natural and should be mainstreamed as being such. I still think that heterosexuality is the natural sexual act.

None of the films nominated were box office successes, as such. Making money is not the only reason a picture wins an Oscar.

Crash was the only one of the nominees that I saw, so I can't make a comparison. I can say that it impressed me geatly. Both the writing and acting ensemble were superb. Aparently the Academy agreed with me.

I'm planning on seeing Brokeback Mountain as soon as I can. I refuse to pass judgement on anyone's sexual beliefs or practices.

I have not yet seen the film, but from the positive feedback I've heard from those who have, it's on my to-see list. I enjoy an intelligent, thought provoking film.

I am heterosexual, and have imagined what it must be like, to not have been born such... I have also imagined my heterosexual self, in a society the majority of which, is homosexual. In this position, I imagine the obstacles and prejudices I might therefore face. I imagine the intimations that merely by desiring to do so, I might change my sexual orientation, the pressure I might feel, to accept the theory that my natural born inclinations are some manifestations of a malfunctioning nature, a condition in need of a cure. I imagine, that in my darkest moments, I might consider myself an abomination, for my inability to deny my nature, and fit into the prevailing societal majority into which I'd been born. Yet, as I live and breathe, I would be unable to deny my personal, natural born instincts, my heterosexuality.

http://www.intouchwithjeannine.com

I will not see the movie. Based on what I have heard from my friends and what I read in the press, it is a story of long term love between homosexuals.

I believe that to be nothing more than the beginning propaganda for legalizing same sex marriage. I am opposed to same sex marriage. Not because it is against my moral beliefs, but because it has the potential to bankrupt our health care system.

In the Canadian provinces where same sex marriage is legal, very few are being entered into. Possibly because they have socialized medicine and it healthcare is available without cost to all citizens. Surveys of homosexuals in the areas where same sex marriage is legal indicate that though some would agree to be there for each other for life, almost none will agree to the life long sexual monogamy required in most Canadian marriage ceremonies. Surveys show that the average number of homosexual partners exceeds sixty whereas the average number for heterosexual couples is less than one tenth that amount.

I believe those surveys show heterosexuality not to be an issue of life long love as it is portrayed in Brokeback mt. and would impress eth citizenry to make an emotional decision to legalize same sex marriage. The statistics prove homosexuality not to be an issue of love, but an issue of sex.

The question of same sex marriage is only an issue of economy. The homosexual community has been open about their desire to legalize their unions in order to qualify for government and employer supported health insurance. Surveys also show that almost every practicing homosexual has some form of STD so the health care costs could be astronomical.

I refuse to support any form of propaganda disguised as entertainment or education.

smile

Number 5 : Oh please........a gay person has to overcome affliction? what planet are you from?
My brother is gay, most people are surprised to hear that...and he goes to a gay church, with a real pastor!!! and they are as christian as you claim to be. And you put gays in the same catagory as alcoholics??????????? and drug addicts? Gay is not a disease...I can't even believe there are still people out there that think like you.

Sandpiper, I attended the Annual Stunt Awards at
Parmount Studios in Hollywood. That night, to put it together, the budget was 4.5million, and the after party's budget was 3.5 mil....so I suppose 32m gross for a movie isn't much....but if anyone really wants to know, I can find the answer pretty easy.

Christina, I goofed. My post, above, to Sandpiper, was supposed to be to you!!!

Sandi, Two of my nephews are gay. They are just like anyone else. They are real people also, they work, eat, sleep, play and love just like us. I also don't know why people want to put them into certain categories.

I find it interesting that the people who judge the most are the 'christians' who are supposed to be the most loving and forgiving on the planet. It still eludes me as to why they think they can judge others.

I think Jeanine said it beautifully. Who are we to ask them to change their natural instincts. If people would understand that gay people are not simply being gay to offend the heterosexuals, but because that is what they are naturally. Life would be so much easier for all on the planet.

Just my opinion
Sandpiper

The response from Number5 dated 2/26 kind of scares me. To put gays in the same category as alcoholic, drug users and pedophiles is not really fair. Also putting overeaters in that same category is strange.

I guess anything that someone doesn't understand or hasn't had to deal with is considered a sin against God.

That is what troubles me about organized religion.

The gay people I know struggled for years because of their desires. They tried church, prayer, medical resources...the list goes on and on.

I have to ask why anyone would choose to be gay given the trials they face? My jury has been out on this issue but finally came in with a verdict of it isn't a choice. They were born that way.

Agreed, Diane

And anyway, there have been homosexuals since the beginning of recorded time. Before Catholics, or Baptists or any other Christian denomination. Before Christians, as a matter of fact. I do not believe it is a moral issue, only a human one. It is simply fact.

Also, maleness and femaleness are not absolute. It really is a continuum with extremes on each end and every variation in between. This IS medical fact. So it follows that someone with a penis is not necessarily all male to begin with, but with female traits as well, and of course vice versa.

I believe that sex outside marriage is a sin - however, not many people can live up to that high expectation. Homosexual sin is not any worse than heterosexual sin.

I'm not interested in seeing the movie - can't say why - it's just not my kind of movie. I'm just not that into westerns.

Daisygirl

Sandpiper, Beverly, Dane, Searcher.....
SO TRUE!! Number 5 needs a vibrator...
not to mention, anyone know a guy that doesn't like....................

Well, Sandi,

I would ask that these remarks be tempered. As you can read, I have my own opinions, but so does Number5. And we must not degrade her honest belief about these matters... She does have a right to her opinion. And should not be denegraded because of it - but I would also ask that Number5 be as kind in responses...and realise that all cannot be held accountable for her beliefs.

Searcher

No comment.

I am not the monitor for this particular section, however, I am a monitor and I am a member of this site, like everyone else. I've also been asked to help "nip it in the bud" if things start to go off track.

Just like Searcher has already requested, please step back and think before you post. If you disagree with someone, do so with respect of their differing opinion. If you can't do that, don't post. It's not rocket science.

The mission statement is very clear. We have this forum as a place to encourage, help, and heal.

JJ

I woke and thought about what Sandpiper had stated, checked the site and I believe I even exited once again. In any event, I read your remarks jawjaw...jawjaw...and to all, including #5 I do apologize. I do write "autmatically" and next time I will think before I do so. Thank you for putting me in my place, I have to remember what this site is all about. Truthfully, when I wrote that, I actually thought it was funny. Now I see how offensive it sounds...My apologies to all. Sandi

Sandi, that's very honorable of you to step up to the plate and apologize.

Let's face it, this is a hot topic. There are so many varying opinions on this and many have been raised in religions that are extremely dogmatic on this issue.

I always have to ask myself this question: If I hadn't been raised in a church that taught homosexuality was a sin, what would I believe?

Today, I've been able to step away from what was crammed down my throat and find my own answers.

Hi,
I have many friends who are gay, in lifelong relationships and don't have STDs. One of them once expressed to me, that to deny his homosexuality (which he actually tried to do for 40 years) would mean he would be denied a chance for real love in his life. Another man I knew spoke eloquently about why he wanted to marry his partner of over 20 years. It was to stand up in front of the world and say, yes, we are together.
A female friend of mine was dragged behind a truck to get her to change her lesbian ways when she was in her early 20s. She's now in her 40s and in a long-term relationship.
Sometimes, when you put a human face on someone, instead of a label, the discussion takes on a different flavor. We all live, love and feel pain from not getting love at times.
I've read through most of this topic and have to applaud everyone for trying to state their viewpoint in a tolerant manner for the most part. It is a heavily loaded topic and you have done an admirable job!
Peace and love

I realized its not clear. The friend who was dragged behind a truck is in a lesbian relationship.
Casey

who is Casey????

KaseyC....should I change my name? I don't want to cause conflicts...they are so close....you have your opinions and I have mine and I hope that these do not get crossed because of the same sign on name. We are only 1 letter off...
Let me know what you think.
KaseyC

i dont want to misquote someone and am not sure if i've even done this quote thing right....... but about marriages between same gender partners .... someone said:

'it has the potential to bankrupt our health care system.'

'In the Canadian provinces where same sex marriage is legal, very few are being entered into. Possibly because they have socialized medicine and it healthcare is available without cost to all citizens.......'

'The question of same sex marriage is only an issue of economy. '

If someone needs health care, they need health care ..... whether married, widowed, divorced single or living common law ..... how can marital status 'break a health care system ?

Marriages between people of the same gender are now legal across our entire country ....
The debates held in pariliament over this issue were not about 'economics' but equality .....
Do all citizens have the same rights and responsibilities or not?

[ March 09, 2006, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: norma ]

Good Afternoon All,

Thank you JJ, for stepping in here, I felt a little like I might have taken on something out of my bounds - but I guess not enough to be quiet about it!!! However, I'm a member of this forum also and want it to continue. I haven't been invited to "watch" things, but I still feel obligated to contribute to a place where we all can equally express opinions without fear of reprisal.

Sandi, you are to be commended for your apology. We need more of that to be sure...

And to be sure also, this is a HOT topic. The nation itself is torn , so it's not a leap to assume that there would be differing opinions on this site. And most certainly, Passionate opinions, since these issues involve our very belief systems....Just remember, Islamic extremists are passionate about their beliefs also - and I know no-one wants to go anywhere near that route. So let's continue our discussion, but in a civil tone, respecting one another.

Welcome back, Norma. It's good to have someone here from "another country" altho it seems strange to admit that Canada is another country. I have so many of my family in Canada that it seems just another part of my own world. And then Bluebird is from eastern Canada, right? (Which btw, I would like to look up, but I haven't yet figured out a way to do that without loosing this post - anyone want to explain that to me?)

So here's my thought for the day - as Casey so well put it, it is the human FACE which will change any idea we have. It's the unknown, the unfamiliar, which becomes "scarey". And throughout history, when we become afraid of the unknown, we gather our weapons, and prepare to strike. Good when we were but hunter-gatherers, but not so good today. In those days, the "different" were a liability. Today they should be our strength.

I am speaking not only as a member of this "society", but also as a Mother of someone different. I see little difference between women's issues, the issues of black America, the issues of Native America, or the issues of "disabled" America. Not to mention the issues of gay America. It seems to me, that anyone to the left or right of center, is bound to be belittled, ignored, or targeted. O, and I forgot, Latino America. And then, of course, Asian America. Not to mention, European America, and those Americans from the Middle East. If I have forgotten any, I apologize. but my point is obvious. America is not , and never has been, a place of homogenous people. The very fact that we invaded this country, attempted genocide on it's inhabitants , and fought to maintain the borders, is proof that we are a people who demanded power - and anyone differing from our view was pounded into submission...Well, I could go on....

But I am asking that each of you think again. Think very long and deep. If your own sibling was gay or lesbian, if your own child was disabled, if you have genetic ties to any other group other than white- anglo- saxon, how then, would you respond?

Searcher

I am considered the harsh observer in this forum from time to time but this topic like so many has no answer. No matter how we feel about same sex partners it is of no consequence what-so-ever. I judge people, NO I take that back. I accept people on their merit whatever it may be, a firm handshake, a big bright smile and twinkling eyes, kindness, generosity and sincerity. These are what I look for in a person NOT whether they like same sex partners or not. Luckily for me and my family we have a host of good, decent, honest friends and yes, some are gay so what? If there is to be a reckoning one day because of ones sexual make-up, let God sort it out. It is not our business to try and do so. Least we be judged for our differences whatever they may be.... Live and let live is a good motto!

Chatty Lady,

We so agree!!!!! It surely is of no consequence whatever. So MANY more important things to be considerd...and yes, let Harietta (God) sort it out, we don't have the expertise....

I'm a great proponant of live and let live. However, the problem comes up when a particular group is villified, I think. Because there are always some -- not in this group! -- who want to take righteousness to an extreme and destroy that which they do not understand or fear. It why Matthew (sorry, can't remember his last name) in Wyoming was killed.

I like Chatty's idea of "a firm handshake bright smile and twinkling eyes, kindness, generosity and sincerity." It gives me a great mental picture of her essence. I wonder what would happen if we treated all in our daily lives like that?

The power of words is great. It can be used to whip a mob into frenzie, or encourage a person who has a sickness inside to perform an act of violence. Lent is upon us. In my church we have always done a pagent based on Good Friday. The words "Crucify Him!" ring out. Who do we crucify with our own words?

As always, take what you like and leave the rest.
Peace

Casey,
I love reading your post. And to all of you, it does a body good to hear you speak from the heart. Remember the proposed witches of Salem. I've read a little about this time period and I cry when I would read of Mothers, sisters and daughters who were tortured and burned because of what? A neighbor didn't like them so they started the rumor they were different, suspicious, a witch? As you say they were "whipping a crowd into a frenzy" and before you know it, have them wanting blood. So sad! Some of these people were murdered because.......they were different, they didn't follow the norm, and/or they walked to a different beat of the drum. Makes you stop and think, doesn't it?

JJ

To the Queen,

Yes, I've read some too. Did you read that most of this was because of the plague? People didn't know what to blame this on, so began to think it must be from evil; and evil meant anything that differed from the norm. At that time, there were so many rules, that the slightest infraction was taken as evil. In fact, it evolved into this: that the devil would be sneaky, so the better a woman you were, the more likely it would be that the devil would use you as his instrument in order to fool others. So even if you followed all rules to the letter, you were even more suspicious and could be murdered anyway! Damned if you do, damned if you don't. (Wonder if that's where that came from).....

I wish more would read about the history of the world, instead of taking someone else's account as truth. Even then, history is only written by men (meaning humans, but sadly, not too many women have written history).....

Searcher

Oh yes...the plague! And also, did you read where each area (at one time) was called upon to have a "quota" of witches? Oh yeah! So they had to meet their quota and took innocent victims and tortured them first, then burned them at the stake. How their families must have suffered.

JJ

Yes, I did, JJ.

And one wonders where the idea of ghosts came from? If I met my demise in this way, you BET I'd be back to haunt them all!!!! One by one.

But then that brings us back to forgiveness, and I'm sure those people were mostly out to save their families and loved ones from what they genuinely thought was evil. At least I hope so.

Which, in turn, leads me to say, those young men who murdered the gay man (young man) from Wyoming, were not living in the dark ages.......I feel badly I don't remember his name, because if I were HIS family, I would wish his name were never forgotten. Never.

Searcher (o and yeah, if I lived in those times, I'm sure I would be one of the first ones to be tortured and burned at the stake!)

Unemotionally, without moral judgement, but with love for the individual, imagine the effects of same sex marriage on employer paid health insurance that covers legally married spouses.

Both insurance rates and tax supported healthcare programs will be affected.

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS01B1&v=PRINT

smile

Wow! I've been so busy and so emotionally involved with my family that I hadn't read any new posts lately. I have to admit, I'm hurt. I'm deeply hurt and disappointed that people can be so cruel and hateful!!

I accept your apology, sandi. Thank you. I believe it is wrong to assume anything about someone else you don't even know.

Let me clear up some misconceptions I've picked up while reading these posts. First, I don't hate anyone. To the contrary, if I err at all, it is in the other direction. I love too much and with too much abandon.

Anyone who knows me personally will tell you I don't judge anyone as a whole. I put faces to every issue. I've tried to imagine what each of you look like and have grown to appreciate each and every one of you.

I was raised in a very strict home, but left my familie's teachings when I was a teen and went on a spiritual journey of my own to discover who I was and what I believed. I was into all sorts of things and became very "enlightened"...then came full circle and realized that an open mind holds nothing and that laws of nature and rules need to be in place for our well being, safety and survival as the human race.

My beliefs are based solely on an indepth study of ancient history, new age philosophy and science as they compare to religious dogma.

What I have come up with is that the majority of our society is easily lead into whatever belief system is the most popular because they don't have a basis in truth to fall back on. Its that simple.

Study Mithra and her courtiers. What were they and why?The form of homosexuality that was most common in ancient Greece was pederasty, meaning a relationship between an adult man and a male youth. For the Greeks, pederasty was more than a sexual pasttime or preference - it was nearly a social institution. A same-sex relationship between an older man, probably in his 20s or 30s, known as the erastes, and a beardless boy, the eromenos or paidika, became a cultural ideal. The relationship was regarded as mutually beneficial, as the older man would educate, protect, love, and provide a role model for his lover, while the eromenos offered his partner with beauty, youth, admiration, and love. {9}

Above, you see in ancient Greece it was common for the adult male to have a child as a concubine.

History repeats itself and all the ancient cultures have fallen, Rome, Greece and one of the main reasons was the depravity of homosexuality and the other was that they became a welfare state.

I believe what I believe not out of hate because I too, know and love some who are caught up in the deception that its OK to be homosexual just as some believe it is OK to be a pedafile or an alcoholic.

My heart breaks for them and their families. I love others very deeply and care about them and what will happen to our society if we continue down the path I see us on.

Hi,
Regarding the reference to insurance, etc. The source is Family Research Center, a conservative think tank. Many of the citations given are close to ten years old, as is the example from the article which follows:

"According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), from 1994 to 1997 the proportion of homosexuals reporting having had anal sex increased from 57.6 percent to 61.2 percent, while the percentage of those reporting "always" using condoms declined from 69.6 percent to 60 percent.[2]"

And if we follow this to a logical conclusion, should we prevent obese people and smokers from having insurance because their activities will cost more money in the insurance pool?

Just a thought -- I truly don't want to offend anyone. It's a discussion.

Peace

I have to make a statement here.

I have a gay son.

God did not make a mistake.

Of course not, Browser. God forbid, but one of my nephews or grandsons or daughters could become "gay". I wouldn't stop loving them. How could I? I would still love them with all my heart!

But my heart would be broken for them. God NEVER intended one of his children to become homosexual or lesbian. Lets all just do away with Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcanon and Mothers Against Drunk Driving and all the other organizations designed to help hurting people find their way out of the horrible life they are in.

God didn't make a mistake and I know how dearly you must love your son. God loves him too. He's not a pariah or a leper. He is a wonderful human being who unfortunately has a thorn in the flesh to overcome, but in his overcoming this problem, he may become a stronger man. He may never marry. He may never have children, but he will be able to help others overcome this terrible affliction.

My own daughter has to deal with her weakness for drugs every day of her life. Some days are better than others, but she has something to live for and people who need her and love her.

You can help your son by praying for him and loving him and accepting him in spite of his sin. You may already pray for him and I don't want to assume anything.

But for the alcoholic or pedafile or drug abuser or wife beater to continue in their sin and have our society absolve it and say it isn't really a sin and put a stamp of approval on it is simply wrong and will bring judgement on our nation as a result of it.

It has happened to every other nation and culture that has openly accepted and sanctioned homosexuality as the norm.

But, Number5, not all consider it an affliction. That's the difference. I was born a female. Is this an affliction?

I've known too many gays who have sought all kinds of help to change what you call an affliction and it just doesn't happen. You are born what you're born.

And, because emotions can't be seen in my writing, I'm saying this in a loving tone.

My son did not make the choice to 'become' gay. He was born gay. I can say that with 100% assurance. We knew from the time he was 3 years old. He was not 'outwardly' gay, but we knew - for the lack of a better word - he was marching to a different drummer. Trust me - it has nothing to do with choice.

i am getting old now number 5, whether God exists or not, i dont know, but even worse than that,
i no longer care ..... i only know this ...
i want the whole world to be a safe and gentle place for everyone while we are here ..... and therefore i have an obligation to try and treat others with kindness and respect, and not to do to them what i dont want done to me .....
that is all i am able to deal with ....

Hi,
I'm asking this in a respectful manner. As Dianne pointed out, emotions are hard to read while we are typing. :-))

Number5, I know you are very concerned about the safety of this country. Thank you for that concern and the love you have in your heart. I am curious about the following statement:

"...will bring judgement on our nation as a result of it.

It has happened to every other nation and culture that has openly accepted and sanctioned homosexuality as the norm"

I know you talked about the Roman Empire and Greece earlier. I remember from my history lessons that there were many reasons that these empires fell, and yes, over-indulgence in food and sex were certainly part of their downfall. However, I can't get to the same conclusion that you appear to get to: acceptance of homosexuality in people will cause this country to fall.

I have many concerns for this country, as well. I believe that the emptiness people feel as they shop, or stare at the TV, or the computer, or use drugs to avoid living and feeling pain is a major problem. I believe the inability of people of differing opinions (at least on the surface) to talk with each other in a respectful manner is a huge problem. That's one of the reasons I think we've done a pretty good job on this thread.

I hope no one takes offence. I am speaking from my heart to yours.

I don't think God has picked a few good people to play a terrible joke on. He is the author of love, he IS love.

But just as some children are born with the genes that cause alcoholism and genes that predispose them to depression and other "afflictions", I just believe homosexuality is yet another problem for the individual to deal with.

My nephew never wanted anything to eat but candy and cantaloupe the whole while he was growing up. He is in medical school now, and is brilliant, but he has all the genes that predispose him to alcoholism and fights the urge to drink continually.

My oldest brother has spent his life studying ancient religions and his extensive study has turned up the temple rituals of most of the ancient religions included the practice of homosexual acts as part of the ceremonies.

I don't understand all of it. I don't pretend to and I think if we were all honest, on those occasions when we notice how beautiful a star is or how beautiful a model is, for a fleeting moment have you ever wondered if your thoughts were totally heterosexual??

I think there is a genetic predisposition to homosexuality, but so is there one for depression and alcoholism. WE do have the choice to give in to those urges or not. The choice is ours, but if everyone tries to make it legal and socially acceptable, then we all lose.

How many of you have been tempted to cheat on your husband or boyfriend? Did you give in to the urge or back off and feel so much better about yourself for having thought it through?

I'm being totally honest and up front. I hold no bad feeling toward anyone right now except my husband and I fluxuate with even that.

Number5 (I wish you had a name :--)), thank you for your loving message. I accept your belief and the love that's behind it, although it is not my belief. But it is your belief and I honor that.

I have to wonder, however. If homosexuality is a choice along the same lines as choosing to overeat, depression, alcoholism and the like, why does it bring up such anxiousness in some people? For example, if Brokeback Mountain were about two alcoholics in love or two obese people in love or two depressed people in love, would people boycott it for it's subject matter? I don't think so.

Casey, I think they would boycott. There are a group of people that will boycott anything. While living in Nashville, I would pass protesters on the street and I started noticing that it was always the same people, no matter what the cause was. I'm waiting for the protest against cotton-crotched underwear!

It breaks my heart when I think that my son lived the first 25 years of his life - a lie. If living a 'hetero' life could have changed him - I would not be visiting this thread now.

I wish I could post of picture of my two boys and let you decide if you can tell which one is gay. I've done just that with friends and no one has picked the correct one.

He played sports, he dated girls, he really wanted to be something that he was not. I will never forget the night that we sat on the front curb of our home, while he cried like a baby. At 25 years of age, he finally told me what I already knew. He was afraid that we would disown him (which is not all that unusual.) I cradled his 6'2" shoulders and just held him tight while he cried out all of the pain that he had held in for so long.

My husband did have a difficult time for awhile. He wanted desperately to think that it was always just a phase. But, he has come miles in accepting and showing his love to his son. He's his greatest supporter now.

He is now - finally happy. He is working in an industry that embraces him for who he is. He's finding his way - which you'd expect most 32 year old men have already done, only the first 25 years didn't count.

I hope and pray that he will find someone to share his dreams with. The same as I pray for my heterosexual son. Why should one be denied anything that the other is not.

What a beautiful post. You're so inspiring.

My ex BIL also tried to be something he wasn't. Obviously, he could have sex with my sister as they had two sons (which made me question, is he really bi-sexual?).

Anyway, he married trying to cover his sexual orientation and he became severely depressed at one time and said it was because one of his patients had died but my sister later discovered it was because he had his first male affair.

I'm so happy that your son was able to let you know and live the life he needs. To do otherwise, would be such a tragedy.

Thank you Casey for your kind words. I DO care and wish beyond wishing I had an answer, but I don't. (surprise, surprise)

There are many things that I have changed my views on as I have studied and learned, such as drinking isn't wrong, just drinking to excess. There are other things which I won't burden you with, but I believe the reason not many would boycott a movie about alcoholics falling in love, ie. "War of the Roses.." or two depressed people, although there have been movies made featuring depressed alcoholic drug users in relationships....LOL is a simple reason:

There is a grand design for the survival, health and existence of our world. I didn't invent it. I don't control it. I don't monitor it. It is demonstrated for us in the trinity. The family of God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit with Mary as the mother of Christ. They are a family. There is a male, female, and the two equal procreation. It works. We who love and serve God are described as the Bride of Christ. Throughout scripture God exclaims how he hates the sin of homosexuality but gave his own son to die for the homosexual to make a way to a perfect God through him, because it goes against the very nature of God's holy design. He says in the last days of our world, women would lie with another woman as with a man losing their lives in the very depths of their lust for each other and ignoring the laws of nature.

I didn't make it up and those who design their own religions around homosexuality are no different than the ancients religions but have no resemblance to Christianity. God is not a man that He should lie and He can't and won't go against his own word.

Its not hate, its not judgemental, its stated for a fact in both the old and new testaments. I didn't make it up. I'm sorry for anyone who has this problem in their family and for the results it will bring to them from one generation to the next. I'm truly sorry for all of us. I'm not happy for the same sex couple or for their families because I know it will bring nothing but heartache and pain to them from one generation to the next.

The results of sin is death and I'm never happy about that. There IS hope and many have found their way out of homosexuality but it takes a strong faith in God and the knowledge that for their own good and for the good of their mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers and all their family members, they need to fight it and give their whole being, heart mind and soul the the one who created them in the image of himself. He never meant for anyone to be homosexual. He is the God of love not confusion.

I'm not going to comment any more on this subject as I don't think I could make it any more clear. I care deeply about anyone and all who have a dear one who has this problem. My heart goes out to you, but I can't, won't and never will condone it, sanction it, or say it is normal or natural.

That's my belief and I'm holding to it.

Thank you, Number 5, for your words. I appreciate your willingness to express them and respect your decision to not comment further. I believe you are right that you have expressed it to the best of your ability.

Peace and joy in life.

For all of us:
We have (at least) two very different beliefs, both coming from loving hearts. I doubt very much that anyone will convert their belief in the near future. :--))
So, how do we get along? How can we keep sweet dialogue rather than angry words? How do we live in a country of different beliefs where laws are made which favor one side or another, and each side believes they are right?
I believe we must start with loving hearts and lots of listening to the other. I believe we must disagree in the light of peace; disagreeing with a belief, perhaps, but extending our love to the person with the belief. I feel this is the basis for our humanity and hope.
Thoughts?

Well put Casey..... in my opinion, we have no other option.

I agree, Casey. I love to read about the thoughts, feelings and beliefs of others. It makes me stop and think.

I feel we've done a great job here. Most if not all, posts have been in a loving tone.

Only then, can we appreciate each other and come to an understanding.

There is a saying I think might serve us all well here:

If you want others to be happy, show compassion. If you want to be happy, show compassion.

Well put, Chatty, (I'm happy to see you on board here) Norma, and Dianne.

#5, I could not disagree with you more. I still respect your opinions, and hope you can respect mine. I absoulutely know where you are coming from. I , at one time in my life, was a "born again Christian" , embracing all that you believe. In the coming years, I found that I began to deviate from these beliefs. At the present time, I believe that there is a Harietta, or God - as you may place a name upon the Universe at Large - but I do not believe that this same God can put such Divine judgement on sweet, innocent, and loving people, who happen to be "Gay" or "Lesbian" . From where do you get your "Divine" instruction? The Bible gives precious few direction on this subject.

Forgive me for my insight, but I truly believe you are being led by others.....not your own personal research.....In addition, I find it deplorable that any one is ready to "crucify" someone of a different idealism.

Search

Hi, everybody. I'm new here and don't know if I'll be staying around, but I happened on this discussion and Number5's comments got to me. Please try some tolerance if not approval. I thought Searcher's comments were really interesting. Would love to hear more about Harietta.

I realize it probably won't really matter what I say because I sense the mind set is totally against anything I might produce as proof of or in defense of what I believe, especially since what I believe isn't politically correct and no matter what I say it will be construed as "hate" when in actuality it wasn't MY idea. There is an order to nature and a reason for rules and laws. Outside that perfect order there is confusion and chaos. Would you throw out the owner's manual for your car and wing it??!! But here goes:

Romans 1: 17-32 states that the righteousness or (rightness) of God is revealed from faith to faith...the wrath (anger) of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (women) who hold back the truth in unrighteousness; because basically they can know God because He shows himself to them through his word.

The invisible things of God from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead (God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)and for that reason we are without excuse.

We, even though we knew God, didn't glorify him as God, weren't thankful, but became vain in our imaginations, and our foolish heart was darkened. We professed ourselves to be wise and became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made to look like man and birds and four footed beasts, and creeping things.

Because of this,God gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever.

Because of this God gave them up unto vile affections (passions): for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise the men leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that reward of their error which was due to them.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgement of God, that they which do those things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans Chapter 2 goes on to say but don't judge them because you'll be "tarred with the same brush" so to speak. Because, God has judged them already. You don't need to do it too. You're not God. He's already taken care of it. We just need to feel compassion for them and pray for their deliverance.

Leviticus 18: 22-30 (for those of you who don't believe in the New Testament) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Defile not yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled whih I cast out before you: and the land is defiled: therefore Ido visit the iniquity upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants..

I Corinthians: 17-20 talks about the sexual sins as sins against your own body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit made in the image of God. You don't own your own body if you are a follower of Christ. Your body belongs to him and it is only on loan to you.

Thank you Searcher for you voice of wisdom.

First of all, thank you again, Number 5, for being willing to state your beliefs. I thank you for your courage and love and willingness to continue the conversation.

I have to say that I believe that the word of Jesus supercedes the Old Testament for me. I also believe that the Bible as we know it was written by men (women wrote things, but their viewpoint was excluded from the current Bible). And that these men were a product of their times. I say this not in an effort to change anyone else's belief, but so you all understand my viewpoint and can take that into account. :-))

I'm also not truly comfortable with Paul (author of Romans and Corinthians). To me, faith is a gift from God (or Henrietta). Romans 17-32 talks about the worship of idols, and, yes, that "God gave them up to degrading passions," including, but not limited to, homosexuality. Paul goes on to talk about other kinds of wickedness (evil, murder, strife, etc.). To me, this is Paul talking, not God. But, for those, like Number 5, who take a viewpoint more literal than mine, her stand makes perfect sense. (I hope I'm interpretting this correctly, Number 5. I don't mean to speak for you in any way.)

My wish would be for those who do take this passage more literally (present company excepted!), is that the rest of the passage would take on equal weight. We could then see the end of "every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice...envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness...gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious towards parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless."

Now wouldn't THAT be a beautiful world!

Thank you all for your loving voices...Take what you like and leave the rest.

Casey

I'm sorry this site didn't turn out to be for me. I was hopeful,butI'll be off to find some other forum more like I was looking for. But it's nice to have met you all. Number5, our opinions may differ, but I hope all works out well for you. Please don't continue to take any abuse, verbal or otherwise. I've done it and know how it feels.

Best wishes to all.

Just curious, Peacetrain, as to how you know this site isn't for you after 2 posts? Unless you've been reading many more and just don't like what you see. It's not for everyone. I didn't even get a chance to welcome you! Well, good luck and if you ever want to come back, I'll welcome you.

Peacetrain,

I hope it wasn't because of me... Hope you find what you are looking for though. By the way, loved that song by Cat Stevens. Loved Cat Stevens...

Or me :-((

No, not personal about anyone. I love the song, too. I'm kind of a born again hippie and just from reading a lot of the posts, I think my views won't quite fit in with the religious thread that seems to run through the site. I think its great; it's just not me.

Peace

Oh honey, you'd fit in perfect here. There are many different beliefs...just gotta dig for them! If you don't want religion, you can always go to the pet thread and read about my bird and log onto her new blogsite. I know...shameless promoting.

I hope you stick around. I love your name. My favorite singers, Big & Rich have a song on one of their CD's called Peace Train.

Yeah, Stick around, we'd love to have you - and Dianne's bird is a hoot - well, better not say that or Sammie will be saying that too. Whatta bird!!!!

Search

Peacetrain, being civil, being considerate, being trustworthy and being humorous are all things we Boomers strive for on this site. Having religion is just an added plus but not a prerequisite of posting here. Heck we have a Wicken active member and I've have seen the word Aethiest bantered around as well so if thats your only trepidation to not hanging around, fear not! Oh and you must also be a woman as no men are allowed here. Do you think you qualify?

Peacetrain, Don't leave just yet. Try us on and see how it works. Sometimes getting into a new board is scary, but there are a lot of lovely people here. I agree - religion is not a mandatory thing. It does not matter what your religion is.

I hope you hang in there and let us get to know you. You sound great!

Sandpiper

Why would religion scare you away?? Hang around and drop your ideas into the pool. More ideas equals greater understanding. Hang in there, Peace.

But if you don't then hope you find birds of a feather with which to flock together.

I believe we can all agree religion is a subject we cannot all agree upon! So many different upbringins, beliefs and viewpoints.
My brother, as mentioned previously, is gay and attends a gay church. He is a very loving person.
Leviticus, as mentioned above by Number 5, is quoted in their brochure. It is quoted with an entirely different interpretation.
Thus I believe the Bible can be interpreted
many different ways. So be it, to each his own..
and that's what makes the world go 'round! Which I think is terrific...otherwise, if we all thought the same, how boring would that be?
I do believe God gave us a free will...and I also believe we can use our will in whichever dirrection we choose, and God is not going to love us less for it. I don't look at someone as being "gay". As my brother is gay, I meet a lot of gay people, I love them for who they are as a person. And we do a lot of laughing. I believe people who have finally come to terms with who they are, are very happy people.

Sandi,

I think that was very well said....

I wonder what people mean when they use the word "religion"? For me, it's an organized religion, distinct from spirituality. Also, I think distinct from the books of religions, including but not limited to the Bible.

Thoughts?

Peace

PS: I'm going to be away for a few days. My son is going to be sentenced and I need to support him.

Casey, What is your son going to be sentenced for? As you may know, my daughter is going to be sentenced also. How are you holding up?

Know this, no matter what you think of my beliefs, I'll be praying for you and your son.

I'm probably not going to post any more about my faith. I don't want to argue. Its pointless. I have to agree to disagree with you sandi and hope that we can find some common ground.

I've met a lot of people who twist the Word to fit their own convenience and its sad. I think its called plagerism.

Anyway, I think there is no question what I believe so I'll leave it at that. One last thing, ignorance is bliss and I ain't happy.

Wanted you all to know I haven't given up on this yet. Number5 and Casey, I worked in a prison/Parole Board for a long, long time and saw lots of families who had been torn apart by twists of fate that sometimes could have been prevented and sometimes not. But keep supporting them, that's what they need. The system is tough, but not all bad. There are some people there who want to help.
Peace

Number 5, please continue to post about your faith. You are an inspiration. You have posted factually from Scripture and you have infused each of your posts with the Scripture's over-riding message of love.

Like a lot of scientists, I am confused as to whether homosexuality is an inborn character trait or a learned behavior. I have seen scientific evidence to support both theories.

Either way, only the homosexual 'act,' not the inclination to homosexuality is deemed sinful in Scripture. Like a lot of sins, the homosexual act is a corruption of a natural tendency. A degree of attraction to the same sex during adolescence is believed to be a part of normal maturation.

Therefore I do not believe homosexual tendencies to be a sin. However, I do believe that 'acting' on homosexual tendencies is a sin. Just as one can be born with an inclination to drink alcohol, but not act on that inborn impulse, someone born with an inclination to homosexuality can choose not to act on his or her impulses. It is the homosexual act that I find sinful, not the tendency.

However, to say the homosexual act is a sin does not prevent me from loving those who engage in homosexual acts. Homosexuality is rampant in theater and I have many friends who are practicing homosexuals. We have discussed these issues a lot. They know I believe them to be sinners, but we still love each other because they know I also believe myself to be a sinner and that I believe all sins are equal in the eyes of God. Most importantly they know that I believe the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ redeemed us all.


There are a lot of important and controversial issues facing our world at this time. We must be able to discuss them factually without personally attacking each other if we are to find the solutions that are incumbent upon the boomer generation.

smile

[ March 14, 2006, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: smilinize ]

Smile, thank you so much! You have put into words most succintly what I have been beating around the bush to say. That is exactly what I believe as a scientist myself and a believer.

There are so many things I am driven to do as is my nature, but they wouldn't be good for me or mine.

You have made it completely clear and I can't thank you enough.

I wish I had all the answers but unfortunately I don't. Sometimes I feel lost in a sea of complexity regarding the issues our world faces. My late husband who I consider my soulmate, said once, "honey, you have a two foot space around you and that is all you need to tend to." I try to remember that when I become overwhelmed with complexities of life.

I have learned to think as I put it, the Scarlett O'Hara way, "I'll think about that tomorrow."

I really appreciate all of you so much and have learned that this is a space where I can come to and find peace, wisdom,and support no matter what my beliefs or tendencies.

Welcome, Peace! I just thought how incredibly wonderful it would be, for every human being in this world, to be able to utter those words, in greeting an end to injustice, intolerance, ignorance, hatred and fear.

Peacetrain, allow me to say you are most welcome, here on this open forum. Open public expression of an individual's seriously considered personal thoughts, reflections, ideas, theories, beliefs, and insights, plays an ever-increasing role in the transfomation for the better, of our world. We are each a member of the human family, and as we know, in a loving family, each member has the right to responsible self-expression, personal growth, and individual thought. Yet, within a loving family, these rights are ever tempered with the understanding that no member may act so selfishly, so irresponsibly, that they do harm to the family as a whole.

As a human being, I am enriched by every act of unselfish human kindness, understanding and compassion, demonstrated by my fellows. I have been enlarged by every human accomplisment for the good of all, since time immemorial. I have experiencd the triumph of human spirit with each performance of strength of character, will, and love, displayed by my fellow human beings. I am also diminished, as a human being, by every act of unkindness, ignorance, intolerance, injustice, cruelty and hatred. As a human being, I suffer as the victim in each circumstance aforementioned. As a human being, I as well, suffer diminishment, as the perpetrator in each incident aforementioned. It is my hope that one day, the human state may suffer not, from involvement as either.

Every woman, who makes the effort to post at this forum with sincerity of heart, I hope, will feel the complete acceptance of her right to express herself, by all herein.

http://www.intouchwithjeannine.com

Hi all,
Thanks for prayers and support. I know that they worked a miracle. Jesse, my son, is going to go into a program! Hallelujah!

It's been a long road. Jesse has been on drugs since he was around 8 (he's 19 now). He's been clean and sober, except for one slip, for a year. He didn't realize that risk-taking, impulsive behavior was also a drug and he stole again, which is why he was back in jail. Now, through the grace of God and all your prayers, he is going to a 2-year program which will solidify his sobriety and teach him three trades. I am so very grateful.

Number 5, thank you in particular for your prayers. Know that I always see the kind, loving person in your words. Your faith works for you and that's fine with me! :--)))

Smile, I totally agree with you about discussing things factually without attacking each other.

Peace, love and spirit to you all.

Praise God for His mercy and love, in listening to our requests and granting them.
I'm so happy for you and your son, Casey! ((HUGS))

Casey, I am so happy to hear the good news for your son. Will this be an in-house facility?

It's taken me forever to post in this thread.

We had a very dear friend take his life many years ago. He and my hubby were good friends all through elementary and high school. In fact, there is a statue of two boys that was dedicated to their grade school in his memory. His mother told us the boys were Ross and his buddy. Ross spoke at his funeral. Tough!

He was a homosexual who basically lived in the closet in the 70s and early 80s so I have a special place in my heart for homosexuals because like other human beings, they need love too.We are called to love one another. We are not called to judge.

His death landed Ross and I in the hands of a minister who graciously caused us to give our lives to Christ.

As I turn people toward heaven, I like to give our friend the credit. Funny how God works.

[ March 16, 2006, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Dotsie ]

Casey, I have a cousin who has been in prison more than he's been out and it was because of drugs. Buying, selling and using. What a waste.

Therefore, I'm thrilled that your son has this new beginning and will pray that he takes advantage of it.

Thank you for all of your support and for sharing the feelings of joy that I feel.

Many of the kids who are on drugs are our brightest and most sensitive kids. I wonder if we can find a way to reach them that will work better than we have right now.

I had the wonderful opportunity to do a pledge drive for Wayne Dyer last Sunday night. He was there and I got a chance to chat briefly with him about my son. He says he talks about the problem in the PBS show (which I haven't gotten to see) and feels surrounding these young people with love would do quite a bit.

Yes, Dotsie, the power is love for each and every one of us. Thank you so much for your support in creating this space where we can share our pain, joy and thoughts.

God bless you Casey and your son. It was drugs that took my youngest son away from me 12 years ago and keeps him away to this day. I hope your son has success in the long hard road ahead of him....with you by his side I'm sure it will be a bit easier.

Thank you, Chatty. I will keep your son in my thoughts and prayers.

Casey,

I can't begin to tell you how overjoyed I am for you and your son. You know, when everyone else gives up on a son or daughter, a mother's love goes on and on. Just look at Mary at the Cross. She had to see her beloved son suffer and die and she had known all along what his fate would be with the promise that he would live again.

So many people have said, "Just write her off, just let her go. She'll never change. She'll always be a druggie and a poor mother." Those words only serve to stir up the powerful protective hope and belief and love a mother has for her child.

I know you believe in your son. Chatty, I know you will never give up on your son. Dianne, I know you will never lose hope for your cousin.

They need someone to believe in them and if we can't or won't, if we give up on them, then they really are lost.

I believe in your son, casey, and in my daughter and that there is hope for all the bright, wonderful young people who fall prey to drugs and alcohol.

They are usually the most sensitive and the most vulnerable ones.

I believe that in our hearts we must always keep love alive for all who suffer, particularly those we love whose lives are so horribly affected by the disease of drugs and alcohol. While I know there are genetics involved, I also wonder what we can do to provide these kids alternatives. With my son, not only did he inheret the tendency from his dad and my dad, we found out this year (he's 19) that he had been molested by a neighbor when he was about 5. We'd always suspected it, but this was the first time we got confirmation.

Jesse is so very bright and was bored out of his mind in school. Because he was different, he was picked on in elementary school. Because he had been molested and the issue never resolved, he often exhibited inappropriate behavior. We took him to many therapists, put him in many programs, trying to help. But at the same time my ex- and I were fighting all the time and my ex- was still drinking. Very mixed messages indeed!

I hope that all of you who have loved ones involved with drugs have gotten support for yourselves -- either through Al-Anon or some other support program. It's the only way I have managed to struggle through the gray murk and pain to a light where I can fully love and support Jesse as appropriate, yet not lose myself in the process.

Norma and Number5 and anyone else in this situation, God bless you for your love for your childen and grandchildren. And strength to continue on this path that we have been given.

Brokeback Mountain Goes to Camelot!
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