Feminism vs Religion

I was listening to a radio program that was discussing how feminism goes against Christianity. They said the words in the Bible remain true regardless of the era we live in. Thoughts?

Dianne,

I think that saying feminism goes against Christianity is too broad a statement to say yes or no to. For one thing, the word feminist means different things to different people. Did they mean the current feminist movement? IMO the feminist movement was needed at one time, but like most unions, it is no longer relevent.

I do believe the Bible is the Truth regardless of the time we live in and that it is a blueprint for living a good and satisfying life. However, some of the words are parables and we have to discern what they mean. Each person must read/study the Bible (a group study is the best for me) and determine for themselves what it means.

In Jesus' day He was a radical feminist and gave women more power and treated them better than anyone in His time. But at the same time, if I ever marry again, I want the Biblical style of marriage, which means the man is the head of the house. So I have to be very careful about my choice and I'll probably be single the rest of my life. LOL

Daisygirl

Oh my, my, my...this is certainly a can of worms ( or perhaps, other forms of Biblical pestilence )

I attended a Christian college and this was, by far, THE most difficult question. And it never was satisfactorily answered.

I agree with you, Daisy, that it's too broad a statement to say yes or no to, but I'd like to hear more about why you think the feminist movement is no longer relevent and why you want the Biblical style of marriage. I am intrigued by these statements.

Hello everyone!I'm new here and I agree that this can certainly be a thorny subject! I used to have a harder time with it when I was younger, but age has either worn me down or given me wisdom..maybe a little of both! I'm happy to let my husband be the head of the house, tho' he doesn't make many decisions, especially large ones, without talking things over with me before. Each church seems to handle a woman's role differently as well, so it can be very confusing. I'm happiest when I try to find God's will for MY life..what does He want me to do, and then attempting to do it...without worrying too much about the larger picture. Thanks for listening and the good thread. Blessings...S.

I agree with Daisygirl's statement that saying feminism goes against Christianity is too broad a statement to say yes or no to. For one thing, the word feminist means different things to different people.

From Sera: he [hubby] doesn't make many decisions, especially large ones, without talking things over with me before.

That's the same for me...hubby and I are partners in all the ways that count, and we take turns being the "head of the household" when one's particular gifts and talents better suit the part of the household that needs heading at the time!

from Sera: Each church seems to handle a woman's role differently as well, so it can be very confusing. I'm happiest when I try to find God's will for MY life..what does He want me to do, and then attempting to do it...without worrying too much about the larger picture.

That's how I prefer to live my life too...at my own pace, and in whatever ways that will bring the most peace and mutual contentment in our marriage and household. I'm no pushover, but have become really good at calmly negotiating the little things so that we both win.

My bottom line is that I firmly believe in everyone's innate freedom to be all that they are, and the right to become the best that they can be. I love my husband with every fiber of my being. So out of that love, I try to provide a safe place for him to be who he is, and try to facilitate his becoming the best that he can become...and for the most part, he does the same for me, although I do have to remind him how to best do that, and coax him in that direction sometimes.

[ September 15, 2005, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Eagle Heart ]

The feminist movement was very important in the past and helped women move closer to making the same pay for the same work. And in the distant past, they helped to get us the right to vote. I'm not an attorney, but with my limited knowledge of law, I'd say on the whole, we are very protected against discrimination based on gender. The people who discriminate against women are breaking the law and we have the right to sue them. I think the information revolution has reduced the need for many groups. I am open to other ideas and look forward to hearing your comments on this topic.

As for the Biblical marriage, I don't want to go into the theology of it, I don't have time to write a book. I was listening to Dr. James Dodson on the radio and he said it best. He said he and his wife have that type of marriage, one in which the husband should love the wife as Christ loved the Church and the wife should submit. He said that in 40 years of marriage his wife made all the decisions regarding their family. Only twice did he have to say I'm sorry, but we can't do whatever. I've been married twice and a few serious relationships and I have never been loved as much as Christ loved the Church. If you look at Ephesians 5:22-33, and really study it, IMO it seems as if the wife gets the better deal. But let's get real, it takes 2 very emotionally healthy and Godly people to make a Biblical marriage work.

Daisygirl

I think the church feared the feminist movement because it seemed to come against the family but with so many women working now, it has really helped our gender. However, discrimination is still practiced against women outside of the work place and that bothers me.

I'm more than happy to have my husband be the head of the house (see thread: I need a wife) but I don't appreciate it when he makes decisions that have an impact on both of us without discussing it with me. Something he now does since I threatened him with a 4" high heel stabbed through his instep.

Daisy, I liked your answers. The reason I asked for your response was I was looking for input from somebody closer to my age. In the class I was in, the Gen X women (I was, literally, the only one over 30 ) had some SERIOUS disbelief with regard to any real progress having been made with regard to discrimination, and they ABSOLUTELY rejected the automatic "husband is head of household" concept, saying that this was Paul speaking, and not God. (And this is in a Biblical Literature class at a Christian university!) I know Ephesians 22+ backwards and forwards because it was the source of outrageous debates in that class. In the end, the professor had to tell everybody to agree to disagree and drop it. But, I'll tell you, after that, the class just fell apart along gender lines. I didn't say too much because I was kind of stunned at the vehemence with which each side fought. It was certainly a "lesson" I never expected to learn!

When I was their age, I thought the same way but changed my mind around 36. Wouldn't you like to have the same discussion with the same people in 20 years?

Very good point Daisygirl.Fifty, you must have been a little shocked to experience that "lesson" at a Christian college! But I do think your viewpoint DOES change over time-as Eagle Heart stated, you just long for peace in the family and to help your spouse get along the best you can. My husband seems like a gift from God to me, my marriage being a re-marriage after single parenthood for years.While nothing is ever perfect and we have our share of troubles and disagreements to face like any married couple, I accord him the respect he deserves and he does the same for me. With God as the center of our marriage, we manage not to go TOO far astray! Blessings....S.

I love this topic. I immediately thought of Ephesians too. I remember studying this in a Bible study when I was younger. Some women had the attitude "no man's going to rule me". Well that really isn't what Paul is saying. Here's my interpretation:

First of all, the verse preceding what we are to do as wives states, "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ."

Then it is followed by how we are to submit, etc.

After that Paul states "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, etc...

Paul uses more words instructing husbands about how to love their wives than he uses instructing us to love our hubbies.

It all goes back to outdoing one another with kindness. If that is the goal of each spouse then marriage is a precious relationship that needs sweet, tender, self-sacrificing care by both partners.

I would love to hear men discuss this passage. Wouldn't you?

I've been pondering this topic. And while this might be slightly off-topic, I think it's interesting to note that on reflection I realized that my number one criteria for a husband had nothing to do with any feminist ideals, but revolved around washing the dishes.

I'm serious. Washing dishes was a HUGE issue for me. I had to do all of the dishes for a family of six (breakfast, lunch AND supper) all by myself every night (except my birthday) for nine years. Now there's where some feminist-inspired ideals might come into play...while I was in there doing dishes alone for two hours every night, my brothers were reclining in the living room watching TV.

I grew to HATE dishes with a passion. And I had no use for a man who expected me to do them (and any other housework) simply because I was the woman. It became imperative that any man of mine HAD to agree to help with the dishes...I refused to even consider a guy if it looked suspiciously like I'd spend the rest of my life washing his dishes...and I quickly ran the other way anytime any Christian guy started spouting Ephesians at me as justification for those expectations!

It took me 36 years before I met the man. Not only does he do the dishes, but most of the cooking, cleaning, laundry, ironing, and bathrooms as well...willingly and lovingly! I know, a man in a million. An incredible gift. And I know it!

Ironically, after my breakdown and enforced retirement, I had to fight with him (rage with him actually) to allow me to take over, or at least participate, in some of those household chores. Now we're much more of a partnership, and work very well and happily together. And I don't mind doing dishes anymore. As long as I'm doing them out of shared responsibility and not because I'm the woman.

[ September 16, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Eagle Heart ]

Yes EagleHeart, he DOES sound like one-in-a-million, that husband of yours...a definite keeper! What a blessing for you. I so agree with Dotsie...if the two of you in the marriage spend your time trying to "out-love" the other, how can power or lack of it be much of an issue?? He who loves the most, has the least power in a relationship, so I guess my husband and I must love fairly equally, as power hasn't come into it in over 6 years of marriage.
As for dishes...that SO makes me smile! One of my pet peeves..(long since let go of),is my husband's propensity for leaving dirty dishes in the sink-one by one- when the dishwasher (empty) is directly next to the sink!! I have NEVER been able to break him of it, so I just move them into the dishwasher like a good dishwasher fairy and go on with life! I guess every silk purse eventually shows it's sow's ear ways, eh?? Blessings, ladies. Sera.

The problem with having such an amazing hubby is that I can never talk about him in any of my circles of girlfriends. In the past, it's made some of them so envious that they've come right out and asked me not to talk about him around them. And somehow having such a wonderful hubby seems to invalidate any angst or anxiety I might have...I wasn't allowed to complain about him at all! Let's face it, even the most seemingly-perfect man has quirks that drive us up the wall! Mine is no different. But they would just tell me I'm so lucky (which I freely admit) that I shouldn't feel any of those feelings.

I ended up feeling so left out of those circles and conversations, that I just stopped going out anymore.

Eagle Heart...That's crazy! Everyone's husband has faults..as does everyone's wife! (Though don't let that get around... )It's a shame you couldn't share your marriage with your friends..one would think he had to beat you so you'd have something to yelp about! :My sister is blessed with a husband like yours. He likes to cook, so prepares dinner EVERY night for her..she hasn't cooked one night since she married him! And I'm talking gourmet meals! I'm lucky...my husband doesn't demand a lot from me with regards to cooking/housekeeping. We eat out a lot and I work full time, so he knows it is what it is. It's clean enough not to have the Health Board condemn us, but I wouldn't want Architectural Digest showing up with a photo crew! *LOL* Blessings....S.

[ September 16, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Sera ]

Thanks, Sera. Something tells me we'd get along just great! The house is clean enough, but let's hope that Oprah doesn't come knocking on my door without a day's notice!

Hubby started out doing everything for much the same reason as your sister's husband...he was retired and loves to cook, and needed to keep active. I worked very long hours, including lots of overtime. Some nights I was so exhausted I'd sit on the stairs and cry because I was too weary to untie my winter boots. He'd come and do it for me, then half-carry me to my recliner chair and serve me a wonderfully nutritious hot meal.

Now that I'm retired, he does an assortment of part-time construction jobs to keep himself active, so I'm enjoying the chance to do the same for him for a change.

I guess this actually fits in with the "ebb and flow" thing posted in the FA forum this morning, doesn't it!

What confuses me is if you happen to be a feminist, flaming or conservative, it is assumed you will take your family down. I don't get that connection at all.

Hmm...Dianne, let me ponder that one for a while.

I was talking to my daughter (who I believe is one of the most beautiful and brilliant people on the planet) about this thread, but she is also very Gen-X in her viewpoint. She said that it isn't that her generation discounts what my generation accomplished as far as changing the anti-discrimination laws for the better (for the most part.)It's that it doesn't do any good to have the legal right to sue, if in fact, you can't, because you can't afford a lawyer but make too much for legal aid. You need the job or worse, you need the health insurance,but you know they'll find a way to get rid of you, because you can't afford the long fight, whether you were right or not. Her take on "women's lib" is that we changed the surface, but the undercurrents still exist, and as long as they do, we should all still be fighting, especially at "grassroots" level. In her home, which is actually quite a bit more traditional in its approach to religion than mine, she is constantly having to remind her husband not to "lord" it over her--that this was not, and is not, the intent of God's teaching. She says it's hard, because the Bible, written by men, interpreted by men, and taught by men (at least until recently) basically does give men a dominion over women (as it does over animals, but she does not like that comparison AT ALL.) Given human nature, when anyone is given that kind of (apparent) absolute power, it can and will be corrupted. She says the concept of the servant leader is one that Christ modeled, but doesn't get a lot of "press" in the Bible, particularly when it comes to Paul.
She also told me I should have brought this up to her when I was in that crazy class, because she could have offered "a voice of reason" for her generation. Gotta love her!!!

Fifty,
I'd say to those young'uns that they have no idea what it used to be like, so they haven't lived through the changes. Remember the debates during the 1970s about language? There were actual debates in Congress about saying words like "mail carrier" rather than "mailman" and other such gender neutral language. Congressmen (and they all were men) thought it was all ridiculous.

But the langauge has changed and the people doing the jobs has also. When I was a kid, I saw firemen, policemen, and Congressmen, rather than fire fighters, Police officers and congresspeople. Language is very much tied to the way we think about things, and what we imagine. that's just one example about what has changed.

Here's another: In high school, I studied music theory and composition and my music teacher told me I didn't have a future because women couldn't publish music under their own names but had to find men to publish for them. Can you imagine a teacher telling that to a girl today? Parents would have a major fit!

I'm not in a Christian marriage, but a Baha'i marriage where the concept is that man and woman are two wings of a bird and that both need to be strong in an equal partnership. Who does the dishes is not decided at birth but is up for discussion.

I raised my sons to do dishes and clean the bathroom and not expect to be waited on. I think that it corrupts a person to be allowed to expect not to have to clean up their own mess, whether they have a penis or not. To me, a religious person is one who sees himself or herself as a servant to others, not as entitled.

The description of your marriage is so beautiful. I'm going to remember that.

I also taught my sons to take care of themselves. I didn't want some poor woman to marry them and have to wait on them. We had equal rights in our home.

Fifty, you and your daughter are so right. Until we change the mindset of the good old boys network, nothing will ever really be altered. Maybe a few more generations?

I think I taught my son too well, he comes home from work and starts and usually cooks the entire dinner as she isn't a very good cook. He does several loads of washing a week and the ourside and inside of his home is manicured and spotless, His wife has thanked me numerous times for teaching him to be equal to his lady. She said all her friends are jealous. This is the same girl mentioned in another post that was keeping him from me for awhile when they first were together. My son looks for no credit, no pat on the back, he simply says she works too and if he can help why shouldn't he? The neatest part is my Grandsons are learning to be the same way....

[ September 17, 2005, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

I don't think having a marriage described in the Bible has anything to do with doing the chores, or who is even the breadwinner of the family. I think it's all about respecting and loving each other and each having the freedom to be all you can be as a couple and individually.

In some ways the feminist movement caused us to have way too much pressure put on us women and mostly by ourselves. Some of us feel like we have to be perfect mothers, wives, decorators, sex-goddesses, as beautiful as a cover girl, career-women and etc etc.

Fifty, I think that there are definitely undercurrents of discrimination, however, the government cannot force people to believe a certain way. They can only pass laws that will protect us somewhat and even that isn't perfect. If I work for an employer who discriminates, then I can sue, and if I can't afford to, then I can find another job. If we stay and allow it to continue, then the employer never pays the consequences of his actions. It's up to each of us individually to take a stand and as time passes thing will get better.

Daisygirl

I agree that the laws aren't going to do the trick by themselves.

We as women are only beginning to understand who we are and what it means to be female, without the imposition of male definitions. But with the power of media messages I'm afraid that the male definitions are winning (because those definitions were there first and are embedded in the culture). Even without the advertising, who women are is hidden in tv and movie plots, and especially in children's programming (cartoons and shows). Think about damsel in distress, waiting for your prince to come, being beautiful and gentle, etc.

Until people start ot focus on our spiritual selves as men and women, all these other cultural expectations (housework, body shape, etc) aren't going to change.

And by the way, even without suing, there is still a heck of a lot of gender bias in a great number of fields. Think about what the Harvard president recently said about female engineers. I'm in academia where males still outnumber females and are given higher ranks.

quote:

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Originally posted by DJ:
Until people start ot focus on our spiritual selves as men and women, all these other cultural expectations (housework, body shape, etc) aren't going to change.

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Amen sister! It all begins from within.