Am I being a brat?

I'm including this post in the "Marriage" section because this is about a man with whom I'm planning to marry. We've only been dating for 9 months but both of us are about 49 years old, Christians, and marriage-minded. I've been divorced for 10 years, he for 4 years. So I ask myself, am I being a brat?

Mark is so many things I do want in a man, he's smart, kind, sensitive, hard-working, responsible, a good father, loves his family, and tried his level best to make his 18-year marriage work before she left. We are very active in church and he is very well liked by many people there. So what's the problem?

I'm used to a much more romantic kind of relationship. The kind where the man expresses his admiration and love for me on a very regular basis. Granted, most of my dating relationships have been short, so I guess we never got past that stagem, but frankly I wither a bit for the lack of it. I've told Mark I need him to express his reasons for choosing me more frequently, especially verbally, but he said he has trouble with this. Perhaps it's one of his family values to not be too "conceited" - I don't know. But for the lack of it, I feel unloved and unappreciated, and the sparkle in my eye dims for him. I do not want to give up this kind of romance and indeed, I don't believe I can and actually have a happy marriage.

Here's what I really think. I'm a very competent woman - aren't we all - we women tend to do so much and we're so good at it. Hold down a job, raise the kids, volunteer in our church/community, keep the house clean, continue our education and get to the gym regularly - that's just what we do. But for me, what I need the guy for is exactly that romance I spoke of above. The rest is pretty much do-able on my own. If I have to feel like a sister in my relationship, well, I can feel like a sister with a lot of fellows, including my boss at work. I want the affection, the flirtation, the steady flow of words and actions that say loudly, "you are special, you are my woman, I love you." So am I being a brat?

I hear all the time how hard marriage is. I was married myself for 17 years so I know it is, and that sometimes we have to compromise - but we better know what we can compromise in and what we can't. I'm getting ready to explore further with Mark his struggle with providing me with the romance and affection I need to make this relationship work. The biggest thing I'm trying to do is not be whiney, adolescent or immature. Moreover, I don't want to make him feel like he's "failing", especially because when a man feels like he's already failed, he's unlikely to even try and the sparkle in his eye goes out too.

On another note, I hate the thought of starting over again, especially since we're well mated in many other areas. I would love to make this one work - but the sparkle in my eye is currently not lit enough to show me the way. Am I being a brat?

What you're feeling and experiencing right now will only become worse.

Some men just don't compliment or give out affection. You can't change him. Are you prepared to live like this? It's really an important question.

Sorry you're going through this but to my mind, there are different degrees of being lonely or feeling ignored. In other words, there is a fate much worse than starting over again.

Susanna,

I would say that some men CHOOSE to be like this......

Have you read "his needs her needs"? And have him read it!!! It is a really good book and explains the difference in needs!

I have cultivated my husband into being more appreciative and affectionate...after 20 years, my husband has become more the man that I desire.

I've done it by being verbally appreciative of him, and more affectionate to him (coming up behind him while he is reading he paper - kissing him on the neck)...he has responded to my initiations.

I'm not saying that this would work for all men.

My husband was appreciative and romantic when we were dating - but it started to fade...so I KNEW he had it in him.

I wouldn't want to marry a person who wasn't willing to work on something that was REALLY important to me. Affection and apprecation is critical to most women!

READ THE BOOK! Then have him read it. If he isn't willing to work on things now.....well, you know!

hugs to you sister!

Danita

Susanna:
Well...from the voice of experience of 41 years of marriage......please.......don't get married in the near future.
After going thru three marriage counselors and not getting anywhere with my husband, he informed me if I thought he was going to hold my hand, kiss me hello and goodbye, and tell me he loves me, I could forget it because he wasn't going to do it.
We married at 18 and 21 and realized much later in life we were not in love, married for other reasons. Me to get away from my mother, and he because he was lonely.
My husband has never told me he loves me. Sad, huh?
At 49 years of age, this man will probably not change.
I thought I'd be able to put up with it, but now that I'm coming out of my cocoon, I'm finding I need that physical and mental affection, which I know I will never get.
Could go on and on, but for you, please consider waiting on the marriage until you are comfortable with yourself.
YOU are the one who is going to love you. No one can help you with that. I had to learn that many, many years into my life.
Lynne

How sad. For him. To be wanted only for romance. All the rest you can do on your own. I don't get any sense of a desire for partnership in your post at all. Do him a favor and leave him for someone who won't try to force him into a role he doesn't seem suited for.

I have a lot of marital experience, mostly bad. But one thing I think I've learned is to make 'him' chase 'me.'

I flirt and seduce and tempt, but only to get him to chase me. It's physiology. Chasing causes males to secrete hormones that make the object of their quest absolutely irresistable. That urge will overcome any inhibitions the male may have. I make my husband win and woo me with romantic words and physical affection every day.

And the great thing about a male chasing a female is that it causes the female to secrete hormones that make him irresistable to her too.

God's just smart that way.
smile

Oh Susanna,

when I met DH he was very romantic. Played beautiful songs on CD's and dedicated them to me, got on his knee to propose after two other times I was not ready!

However, he wanted to have premarital sex (we'd both been married twice before but I'd become a Christian after the end of the 2nd divorce). Found out later, he "thought" I was frigid. I said, "If you want to have sex with me, marry me" So, we married after THREE dates. (married nearly 10 years now)

Now, "he's lost that lovin' feeling".

First, we married way too soon. Second, we both "thought" the other one was one way, only to be disappointed AFTER marriage.

I NEEDED romance, and don't have it. He showed romance, but not really into it any longer. I've cried many a tear of this and still do. Also posted my own thread here, too.

If you've known him nine months and still dont' see it, I'd pray about your decision to marry someone you would be unequally yoked with.

Marrying someone in the hopes that you can change them later never works. People are who they are. Inheritently. Deep down they don't change. You are who you are, and he is who he is. If you're unhappy now, you'll be unhappy later.

I agree with Vicki. Don't go into the marriage "hoping" he will change.Especially at that age. I also trust he is not going into the marriage that YOU will change (ie: not needing the "romance" you say) later on.

My DH says many times: "No expectations. Then you will not be disappointed.".

Oh Susanna, If a man is not affectionate and does not show his lust when it comes to his romance for you now, 'before' you get married then forget it ever changing, it will only get less and less with the familarity that comes with marriage. Some men are not demonstrative and never will be. Now if the sex is good then it sounds like with the way you've described him, he is a good catch, just not the gooey mushy type. If not, unless you plan on leading a wanting sex life forget about it! Oh and about nthe brat part, just remember no one is perfect, no one....You can't have it all and anyone who says you can is a dreamer or worse....

I wholeheartedly agree with Vicki, Di and Chatty Lady. My soon-to-be-ex was never much on romance from the git go, even when we were dating. He was also vehemently opposed to acknowledging or celebrating anniversaries, birthdays, holidays graduations and special occassions of any kind. I blamed his mother, who proudly considered herself the "anti-hallmark moment" woman of the era. (Personally I think she did a great disservice to her son). In any case, he thought it was all great foolishness but seemed to make an effort to tolerate my sentimentality for a while. It slowly got worse and worse, and eventually he really resented me since he was convinced that I was trying to make him feel like there was something wrong with him for being so detached. He belittled my need for romance and tried to make me feel foolish for wanting/needing it at all.

I thought that if I loved him enough it would transform him and he would compromise just as I compromised about many things that pleased him. This never happened. People don't change because you want them to. They've got to want to change on their own. Sorry - but I say - don't do it! You're asking for trouble!

Susana- don't settle- let this time be the right time with a man who puts the stars in your eyes
I know there are men who are loving and romantic, sensitive and verbal- I found mine- fairytales do come true
Like you said- you have all the other stuff on your own- I vote for finding yourself a prince!!!

Well said, Pattyann.

I agree. Speaking for myself, I "sold out" on certain things. Granted, my DH is wonderful and all my friends are envious, but there is still that "little something" missing.

I also know that no one is perfect. However, since you did post here, it seems you are having second thoughts. You are engaged I presume? Much cheaper and less on the emotions if you do not marry if it "feels" like something is already missing.

Not sure I could have taken heed to my own advice, but this is what I think.

Well...today is a new day. Yesterday Mark and I took about 2 hours to discuss how I felt, his response, and so on. We prayed before we talked and that REALLY helped keep us on the right path and mindset. What we uncovered is that Mark has been playing his emotional cards close to his heart for fear of being hurt again - and he didn't even know it until we talked. He had tried sooooo very hard to make his marriage work but his wife left him and it truly crushed his spirit. Although he's been recovering for about 6 years, yesterday he uncovered a new layer to lift. The most crushing thing about what he experienced is that she actually left him for a female -- ouch.

After that we cried, he held me, made me feel so much better, kissed my tears away and today I'm a new woman. He can be extremely romantic, kind and sensitive - and he was all of those things yesterday. Moreover, he's committed to ongoing change and opening up more to me. We still need more time, and plan to enter pre-marriage counseling, but I sure felt better now.

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and words. They really helped a lot.

Boomer prayers are the best! I'm very happy for you, Susanna!!

Aaaawwwwww.......it looks like he's a good guy through and through. Give it time though Susanna!

Daisygirl

Wow! This made my day!
But......Daisygirl is right.
Give it some time.
Lynne

I wish you the very best of luck! Hope this all works out for you just the way you want it...

foundhervoice-atlast

This is why communication is key in all relationships. Had you not taken time to discuss this, I wonder how much longer you would have lived with the anguish. I'm happy for you.

Before we married, a prominent divorce lawyer (my FIL) talked to us about how skeptical he was of marriages because all he did was deal with divorce. It was by no means an encouraging chat. However, he told us that communication was almost always the missing piece when he counseled couples. He was often amazed to hear couples share their reasons for divorce with one another for the very first time when speaking with him. Ridiculous huh?

Oh Susanna, fantastic, lets hope it all works out for the two of you. I hope he knows how lucky he is to have a woman that is so loving, generous and patient as you. It sometimes takes many small steps and he seems to have taken the first one.

[ December 21, 2005, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: chatty lady ]

Oh Susanna (thats a song isn't it)..

So good to hear..sometimes we want to throw the baby away WITH the bathwater!

I would really encourage you to get the book "his needs her needs" and after you read it - have him read it (or do it together).

It talks about relationships being like a bank -- we have to make deposits - or there is NOTHING in it to withdraw. It also talks about what deposits look like. It isn't a "heavy" read, but in my book, it is a "must read".

Happy days!

hugs,
danita

Danita and Susanna,

Best advice, Danita! Yes, Susanna, get the book - or anything else which explains the differences between men and women! There are biological differences, which make things much easier to understand - or should I say neurological differences? Well, Men are from Mars, Women, from Venus - I still say, never a truer word said!!!! Or from movie Karate Kid - "Same, but different..."

I didn't read back, but do you have children? Of different sexes? I did. And believe me, when my son was born later than my daughter, it was immmediately apparent that gender was never dependent upon my response to this child....He was a HE from the get-go. Almost born making engine noises, interested in very different aspects of this world than was my daughter. I was a single mom, and really didn't think I made a difference in how I treated them = making sure they could both play with trucks and dolls. But each made their choice in a New York minute - simply no question. Which leads me to say, that they must THINK differently, and I believe this is the case. (That is not to say that this is not a continuum, which I believe it is.....maleness and femaleness are not absolutes, but a sliding scale....as you most certainly know, women are sometimes just a little more aggressive than you might expect, and men a little more sensitive...thus, a continuuum of gender. So, I guess, you may derive that I believe this is a matter of biology, not choice. ) In my own children's case, it surprised me to see (literally) the differences between them. Nichole was the epitomy of femininity and my son Sam, the hallmark of maleness....and I had interest in their differences....Still do.

So, today, I try , still as a single mom, to understand that I am not male. And temper my advice to my son - thinking that he thinks differntly from myself. It's hard. He really has always needed a male mentor, and I simply cannot provide it. Sadly. But he has "turned out" well. We all, after all, have not had a perfect life or upbringing...

Education is always the key.... Educate yourself and any you provide for.....it's the best thing to do.

Searcher

Oh yes, and about those deposits....Absolutely!!!!!!Investment is the key. The more you invest today, the more you get back tomorrow. Money or relationships, no difference. So make those investments!!!!!!You will be repaid, 10 fold! Be calm, learn all you can, and invest in yourself, your spouse, and your children. You will be duly rewarded. Of this I am sure. You know, "What do you know for sure?" Well, this is what I know for sure.


Searcher

Danita and Searcher,

Thank you so much for the book recommendation. I've ordered it 'used' on Amazon.com - what a great way to buy inexpensive books. I think I needed to be reminded of how very different men and women really are. I do believe I had forgotten that.

Last night I had a church group at my home and I noticed Mark didn't treat me as if I was in the least bit more special than anyone else. In fact, he barely looked at me, much less touch me. I took a moment to let him know privately how I felt so he would have the opportunity to a) be aware and b)change his behavior if he chose to do so. He was VERY surprised to know he was doing this and he changed his behavior when we rejoined the group.

We haven't figured out why he does this yet, but at least he's open to knowing he is, and willing to change. What's weird is that when we're alone he's very attentive, engaging and interactive. In a group, I don't think anyone would even guess we were together, which I find painful. Does anyone else have this problem?

My dh is never touchy-feely in a group situation but is very much so at home where it counts. He works hard, does not hang out in bars or step out with other women. He does nothing to bring shame to me or his family, only makes us proud. For me, that is what counts in the public eye, not whether he touches me physically.

susanna, you spoke, he listened, keep doing it. Speak with gentleness and always at a time when what you need to speak about isn't an issue.

I highly recommend reading Quiet Times for Couples. Here's the Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1565076982/qid=1135771143/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-9963482-2098509?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

It's an old book but the topics are timeless.

It's a daily devotional for married couples. It allows you the opportunity to discuss issues when you aren't smack in the middle of them. We did it years ago and have given it to several young couples since.

I wish for better tiems ahead in your marriage. It's worth working towards.

MAny many men are not demonstative in public, don't know why they just aren't. Kind of like a guy thing I think. At least he was open to what you were saying....

Do you love him for who he is or who you want to make him into?

I know more than a few women who would give years off their life to have a man like Mark. To me it's like being a Christian...you want a man who will talk the talk or walk the walk?

That's a no-brainer for me.

You wrote: "Mark is so many things I do want in a man, he's smart, kind, sensitive, hard-working, responsible, a good father, loves his family, and tried his level best to make his 18-year marriage work before she left. We are very active in church and he is very well liked by many people there."

Hi ThistleCove,

I'm frightened to say I don't really know if I love him for who he is or who I want him to become. I do know that when he ignores me in public I feel inwardly crushed, especially since he's so attentive at home or when we're alone. He does pay plenty of attention to everyone else in the room, men and women, and we discussed it recently as to why. We've determined that I am the "known person" so he focuses his attention on the group or other people. He does not even seem to realize he's doing this but I've pointed it out and he says he will change.

Tonight he did it again - didn't even look at me or say hello when he walked into the restaurant where we met with his family. I told him I need to feel like I'm the most special person in the room to him. Am I being stupid, or a brat, or just plain unrealistic? Anymore, I'm not even sure and maybe I shouldn't just go by how I feel - maybe I ought to go more by my head, but it's really hard to do that when I'm hurting so much.

Sheesh - I truly wish I wasn't so "flaky" in this area but I have to admit it's where I'm at right now.

Ladies - a breakthrough. I realized this "thing" had become a stronghold for me, and was the evil one's method for getting to me, and taking Mark down too. Since it has me so "undone" I finally realized I had to grab hold of it, take AUTHORITY over it, and squash it. Once I did that, I began to see clearly how unreasonable I had become and, praise God, Mark too realized it was something beyond just my insecurity. As the evil one used Eve to take Adam down, he was trying to use me to take down Mark. Evil did not get its day in the sun and ended up speaking on this topic at my prayer group. Everyone recognized how the evil one takes a tiny bit of truth, blows it up to look like a mountain, and tries to take us down with it.

Interestingly, I think this ladies forum also somehow "knew" that this needed to be resolved in another way and that's at least part of why responses laid low waiting for that to happen.

Check out: www.RomanceYourHusband.com